Black haired Ulster people

annelida

Why do so many Ulster people have jet black hair and squarish shaped heads?

Ipso

annelida wrote: »

Why do so many Ulster people have jet black hair and squarish shaped heads?

Because some of their ancestors had black hair?
I hope this isn't a spanish armada type thread.
Not sure what you mean by square head though.

RGM

annelida wrote: »

Why do so many Ulster people have jet black hair and squarish shaped heads?

Why do birds suddenly appear every time you are near?

You sure you didn't get your counties mixed up?

owenc

annelida wrote: »

Why do so many Ulster people have jet black hair and squarish shaped heads?

Our heads arent square. The people with that hair are mainly tyrone. I was just thinking yesterday how some people in NI tan like spanish/indians. It got me wondering do we have any foreign connections??

PaurGasm

owenc wrote: »

Our heads arent square. The people with that hair are mainly tyrone. I was just thinking yesterday how some people in NI tan like spanish/indians. It got me wondering do we have any foreign connections??

Yeah I always thought about that too... One of my mates in Donegal has one of them natural tans and he always said it was something to do with the Spanish invading or the Spanish Armada...Something along them lines...


"...but sure how would I know, I'm from Donegal."

complicit

They are aboriginals

RGM

Ipso wrote: »

I hope this isn't a spanish armada type thread.

PaurGasm wrote: »

One of my mates in Donegal has one of them natural tans and he always said it was something to do with the Spanish invading or the Spanish Armada...Something along them lines...

Here we go!

PaurGasm

RGM wrote: »

Here we go!

i lold...I probably should have read the thread before posting

annelida

Were the first Irish descended from Basque people?

silentrust

Ipso wrote: »

Because some of their ancestors had black hair?
I hope this isn't a spanish armada type thread.
Not sure what you mean by square head though.

Isn't it true about the Armada? My Irish mummy and I both have very dark looks, she said this was why.

RGM

silentrust wrote: »

Isn't it true about the Armada? My Irish mummy and I both have very dark looks, she said this was why.

Extremely doubtful. Most of the Spanish died, and most of those that survived didn't stay. The few that stayed wouldn't have made a dent.

Some of the ancient peoples that first came to Ireland were from the Iberian Peninsula. Today's Irish and Spanish have some vaguely similar DNA. But then, so does most of Europe. Simple truth is having dark features isn't an uncommon thing for Europeans and there are likely several sources for Irish that have them.

Now if your name happens to be Rodriguez or something...

silentrust

RGM wrote: »

Extremely doubtful. Most of the Spanish died, and most of those that survived didn't stay. The few that stayed wouldn't have made a dent.

Some of the ancient peoples that first came to Ireland were from the Iberian Peninsula. Today's Irish and Spanish have some vaguely similar DNA. But then, so does most of Europe. Simple truth is having dark features isn't an uncommon thing for Europeans and there are likely several sources for Irish that have them.

Now if your name happens to be Rodriguez or something...

My father did say I bore an uncanny resemblance to our Portuguese milk man... :-D

Ipso

annelida wrote: »

Were the first Irish descended from Basque people?

Early stages of DNA research indicated Basque and Irish males shared the same male lineage that came from what is now the Basque Region after the ice age. Most recent research now shows that the male lineage in question came from the near east. Iris people are closest to the British, especially Western Britain.

Ipso

silentrust wrote: »

Isn't it true about the Armada? My Irish mummy and I both have very dark looks, she said this was why.

It wasn't a Spanish sailor it was Georgie Burgess!
The Armada was wrecked about 425 years ago or 14 generations ago, at 10 generations you can have up to 2,048 ancestors.
As RGM said, one Spanish person in a family tree of hundreds of Irish would have a very small effect. First off most of them fled to some part of Scotland where there is also a similar type of story, very few would have hung around so Irish genes would be in the vast vast majority.
I don't doubt some of them may have stuck around but I find the idea that a few sailors forever changed the look of Irish people a bit unrealistic. Everyone wants to be that bit more exotic than everyone else.
Of course people from the Atlantic coast of Iberia were also fishing the North Atlantic heavily in the 1700's,I'd say more of them could have had an impact.

owenc

Well its just weird that people from this island with thru and thru native ancestry would be brown? I dont understand where it comes from. There HAS to be some intermixing as people from this latitude dont brown like that.

RGM

owenc wrote: »

Well its just weird that people from this island with thru and thru native ancestry would be brown? I dont understand where it comes from. There HAS to be some intermixing as people from this latitude dont brown like that.

What do you mean by "native ancestry?"

The first people to live in Ireland lived somewhere else first. And legend has it a good number of them came from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain, Portugal).

silentrust

owenc wrote: »

Well its just weird that people from this island with thru and thru native ancestry would be brown? I dont understand where it comes from. There HAS to be some intermixing as people from this latitude dont brown like that.

Certainly not in this weather! I often get mistaken for being Mediterranean but mum's family all have dark looks despite going back into Ireland ye unto the Xth generation. Should we just put this down to random mutation? There are blonde haired pale Italians and Spaniards after all!

Paramite Pie

The gene associated with the 'Celts' known as haplogroup R1b has the highest frequency in Basque (90%), Ireland ( 85% and up to 98% in the Western Ireland!) and somewhere in the 89% region for Whales...

The high frequency of this gene suggests Ireland had alot less new arrivals than former Celtic strongholds like France or South East England (both average about 70%). People with red hair (Vikings) or Blond hair (Vikings/Saxons) are the descendants of historical invaders.:P

So it's more likely that people with traditional gaelic surnames have kept their genes going waay back rather than the more recent Armada. The Picts in Scotland probably had dark features and many Scots arrive in Ulster too.

My not-so-Irish looks come from the French 1798 rebellion (traced back by my aunt due to my grandmothers French surname). That's a recent addition 5/6 generations over 200years and alot of my family still look French (even here in Ireland, French tourists have mistaken me for one of their own!).

So the Armada could've had some impact even if few stayed I guess.

Ipso

The high frequency of R1b in Ireland (more specifically a clade called M269) is probably down to the set up if the gaelic order where leaders had their wicked way with many women.
About 40% of Irish males belong to a group called L21 which arose about 4,000 years ago.
There is another sub group called M222 which is very common in the North West and is strongly associated with the UiNiall dynasty. Basically male lineages can give a distorted view due to males being able to sire a lot of children, then if their children can do the same then theirs etc you end up with a very high count.
The R1b entry to Ireland may not have been very big, the bell beaker group has been proposed as a likely carrier.
I do think dark features may be related to much older ancestry, I think people saying Irish look like Spaniards is very simplistic as there probably isn't a country in Europe more regional than Span.

silentrust

Ipso wrote: »

The high frequency of R1b in Ireland (more specifically a clade called M269) is probably down to the set up if the gaelic order where leaders had their wicked way with many women.
About 40% of Irish males belong to a group called L21 which arose about 4,000 years ago.
There is another sub group called M222 which is very common in the North West and is strongly associated with the UiNiall dynasty. Basically male lineages can give a distorted view due to males being able to sire a lot of children, then if their children can do the same then theirs etc you end up with a very high count.
The R1b entry to Ireland may not have been very big, the bell beaker group has been proposed as a likely carrier.
I do think dark features may be related to much older ancestry, I think people saying Irish look like Spaniards is very simplistic as there probably isn't a country in Europe more regional than Span.

owenc

RGM wrote: »

What do you mean by "native ancestry?"

The first people to live in Ireland lived somewhere else first. And legend has it a good number of them came from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain, Portugal).

Yes but surely that would be diluted by now?

robp

owenc wrote: »

Yes but surely that would be diluted by now?

With what?

Some amount of variation is to be expected in a population. I have met plenty of Italians who could pass of as Irish physically.

There is no consensus on what is the origin of the Irish people as genetic studies have been quite vague. There are several periods where people from different regions may have moved here but none are well understood, even with an example as late as the Vikings we just don't know how many Scandinavians moved here. So some amount of diversity may be a result of different waves of incomers but it might also have always been here.

cupcake83

I'm an American and my family like most Americans is a mixture, but I do geneology and we're a lot Irish our surnames which we still carry are Irish Mcmanus being. Just one! I have almost black hair and brown eyes, go figure you can't tell!

markomuscle

I'm an Ulsterman but I don't have a tan, I'm sure there's an equal amount of tan people in other areas of Ireland too.

Ali Isaac

Shoot me down in flames for bringing mythology into a history forum, but about 4000 years ago, the Milesian people (dark haired, dark eyed and dark skinned) invaded Ireland and won it from the Tuatha de Denann (fair skinned, blue eyed, blonde/red haired). The Milesians, whom historians believe could have actually existed, and thought them to be the first gaelic speaking celts, supposedly came from Galicia, Spain. Before the Denanns, Ireland was ruled by the Fir Bolg, who came from Greece, so they would also have been dark. The last King of the Fir Bolg, Eochaidh, was married to Tailltiu, who some say was the King of Spain's daughter, some say she could have been Nefertiti. Either way, she would have brought a large retinue of dark people with her.

Of course, it's just stories, but no smoke without fire...

I didn't know what you meant about 'square heads' until I saw the pic of the Kerry lads...very funny, lol!

Ipso

Mil appears in other mythologies. It's an attempt by Irish monks to link Ireland to biblical figures, earlier invasions were said to come from Scythia, another favourite of the time as the area is linked to the biblical figure Japeth.
Also at the time Spain was an important area for christianity, who better for monks to claim descent from?

Ali Isaac

Ah...those Christian monks, they corrupted a lot of history in order to further their message, didn't they?!! Besides which, before they came along and started writing everything down, the stories had been passed down orally for so long, they were bound to have already been altered beyond recognition.

However, I enjoy them for what they are. And I still say there's no smoke without fire...

Ipso

We should be grateful or a lot of stuff would have been lost if it wasn't for them.
There definitely would have been interaction with Iberia, the Atlantic Bronze Age for example but no more than anywhere else.

kennryyr

A recent study of a certain type of snail (Cepaea nemoralis) found in Ireland has put into place a very good theory that the original settlers of Ireland came from the region around Andorra on the North East coast of Spain/South West coast of France.

It claims that the first settlers came around 8,000 years ago hailing from the foothills of the Pyrenees mountains. Research has shown this certain type of snail is only found aroud the base of the Pyrenees and then mainly concentrated on the West coast of Ireland. There are only maybe one or two other places these snails have been found in Europe (Isle of Man being one). The researchers found that snails in Ireland and the Pyrenees share a variation in one gene that distinguishes them from other European specimens

This has led researchers to the conclusion that these seafaring stone age peoples brought these snails with them as a source of food, as there have been many caves excavated around the Pyrenees that found fossilised empty snail shells in abundance, showing a case of "snail farming".

I read the full report you can find it on PLOSONE if you search it but here is a link to an article if you want to have a read through - very interesting to say the least: http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/351118/description/News_in_Brief_Snails_trace_Stone_Age_trek_from_Iberia_to_Ireland

robp

Ali Isaac wrote: »

Ah...those Christian monks, they corrupted a lot of history in order to further their message, didn't they?!! Besides which, before they came along and started writing everything down, the stories had been passed down orally for so long, they were bound to have already been altered beyond recognition.

However, I enjoy them for what they are. And I still say there's no smoke without fire...

They were making best from what little existed. These monastics scholars didn't just invent Ireland's link to Iberia. You need to take into account Isidore's popular idea that the name from Ireland (Hibernia) was based on the word Iberia (originally Hiberia). Easy mistake to make. That would have encouraged them to link Iberia and Ireland.

pedroeibar1

robp wrote: »

T...... These monastics scholars didn't just invent Ireland's link to Iberia. You need to take into account Isidore's popular idea that the name from Ireland (Hibernia) was based on the word Iberia (originally Hiberia). Easy mistake to make. That would have encouraged them to link Iberia and Ireland.

How popular is that idea? Where is the 'n'?
Pytheas called our island Iérnē . Ptolemy called it Iouerníā and Tacitus about 100 AD uses the name Hibernia, all of which show an 'n' and the evolution of the name. Even those who do not accept that go for winter, hiberNis, as in Caesar, or is that lost in my discontent?
............qua ex parte est Hibernia, dimidio minor, ut aestimatur, quam Britannia, sed pari spatio transmissus atque ex Gallia est in Britanniam. In hoc medio cursu est insula, quae appellatur Mona: complures praeterea minores subiectae insulae existimantur, de quibus insulis nonnulli scripserunt dies continuos triginta sub bruma esse noctem. Nos nihil de eo percontationibus reperiebamus, nisi certis ex aqua mensuris breviores esse quam in continenti noctes videbamus.

robp

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

How popular is that idea? Where is the 'n'?
Pytheas called our island Iérnē . Ptolemy called it Iouerníā and Tacitus about 100 AD uses the name Hibernia, all of which show an 'n' and the evolution of the name. Even those who do not accept that go for winter, hiberNis, as in Caesar, or is that lost in my discontent?
............qua ex parte est Hibernia, dimidio minor, ut aestimatur, quam Britannia, sed pari spatio transmissus atque ex Gallia est in Britanniam. In hoc medio cursu est insula, quae appellatur Mona: complures praeterea minores subiectae insulae existimantur, de quibus insulis nonnulli scripserunt dies continuos triginta sub bruma esse noctem. Nos nihil de eo percontationibus reperiebamus, nisi certis ex aqua mensuris breviores esse quam in continenti noctes videbamus.

Did early Irish monastics have access to those sources? I have heard Isidore's Etymologiae is mentioned 10 Irish scholars in the 7th cen so we know it was circulating here.