Following on from http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056959942

Spook_ie

Is it not about time that cycling organisations, the RSA etc. brought into cycle education.

Catch them young BEFORE they start driving makes them aware of the pros and cons of cycling in traffic and educates them HOW to actually cycle in traffic and should make them more aware as drivers ( when and if they decide to learn to drive ) of how to intereract with cyclists

I'd be pretty sure that if they wanted to that Cycling Ireland/RSA etc. would be able to get access to the course materials etc. from the bikeability scheme that the UK runs and set up a similar scheme here.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/bikeability/delivering-bikeability/bikeability-course-guides/

http://www.dft.gov.uk/bikeability/wp-content/uploads/Bikeability_Delivery_Guide.pdf


Just seems that it's easier to keep blaming everyone else instead of grasping the nettles

Wishbone Ash

Spook_ie wrote: »

........Just seems that it's easier to keep blaming everyone else instead of grasping the nettles

That reminds me of a particular group of drivers in the SPSV bracket - the majority are woefully inadequate at driving on public roads yet are seriously opinionated and always finding fault with others!

Spook_ie

Funnneeeee

No what I mean is you get drivers blaming cyclists and pedestrians, you get cyclists blaming pedestrians and drivers and pedestrians blaming cyclists and drivers.

Surely it makes sense that as people progress through the various modes of transport they employ that they become aware of the pros and cons responsibilities etc. of each mode.

I started as a pedestrian, then a cyclist, now a driver, I have seen the world as all 3 and am aware of how the actions of one group impact upon another, however one thing that was available to me as a cyclist was the forerunner of the bikeability scheme the "Cycling Proficiency Test" didn't do me any harm and indeed prepped me for when I started driving as to the interaction of cyclists and drivers.

TinyExplosions

Spook_ie wrote: »

Is it not about time that cycling organisations, the RSA etc. brought into cycle education.

Catch them young BEFORE they start driving makes them aware of the pros and cons of cycling in traffic and educates them HOW to actually cycle in traffic and should make them more aware as drivers ( when and if they decide to learn to drive ) of how to intereract with cyclists

Or we could just all ride our bikes and get along together without the need for stupid 'courses' and shit

Spook_ie

TinyExplosions wrote: »

Or we could just all ride our bikes and get along together without the need for stupid 'courses' and shit

Why would any training being offered be described as

stupid 'courses' and shit

Do you believe that people instinctively know roadcraft without learning it? or that roadcraft is something that can only be self taught?

Please do expand on your reasoning

TinyExplosions

Spook_ie wrote: »

Do you believe that people instinctively know roadcraft without learning it? or that roadcraft is something that can only be self taught?

Please do expand on your reasoning

I think that most 'training courses' are the sort that drill silly ideas into people, like 'Helmets are magic hats that save you from all harm', and 'Stick 8 lights on your bike and turn em on during the day and you'll be seen', 'if you don't wear high vis you'll be brown bread' and that sort of junk, rather than just promoting cycling as a fun way of getting around the place that's also good for you.

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I just don't see the point of these sort of courses.

Beasty

I think the theory is fine, but the practical implementation would be of concern to me. The problem is that the types of people (cyclists, pedestrians and drivers) that routinely choose to put themselves and/or others at risk are unlikely to pay much attention to any "training" received

It would be great if we could, as you suggest, catch them young, and some schools do offer basic cycling skills. However in the current economic climate I can't see this becoming part of the regular curriculum, and equally cannot see many people being prepared to fund such training themselves (and as soon as you "privatise" something like this general standards may well fall anyway, as is evidenced by recent revelations on the childcare front)

lennymc

CI offer the sprocket rocket course for younger riders. Its open to anyone (once you meet certain criteria, such as having the CI foundation coaching course and garda clearance) but aimed at those who deal with kids. The course focuses on the basics of cycling (balance, braking, cornering and pedalling). I think that its more important to learn the basics as a good foundation before learning road craft. If you dont have the basics, no amount of roadcraft will help you.

buffalo

Beasty wrote: »

It would be great if we could, as you suggest, catch them young, and some schools do offer basic cycling skills. However in the current economic climate I can't see this becoming part of the regular curriculum, and equally cannot see many people being prepared to fund such training themselves (and as soon as you "privatise" something like this general standards may well fall anyway, as is evidenced by recent revelations on the childcare front)

I think in the CEC, it'd be more likely to have cycling lessons, as less people will be able to pay for petrol, or insurance, or the various other car costs.

I'd like to see it as a part of a primary curriculum, 3rd or 4th class, and then again in Transition Year or something. In an ideal world.

TinyExplosions

Hmmm, maybe I got the wrong end of the stick... is the suggestion teaching people *how* to ride a bike, or teaching people how to behave in traffic and be a decent road user -they're very different things!

lennymc

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I think that most 'training courses' ...

Have you taken any training courses or is that what you think they consist of? Genuine question from someone who is interested in the education side of things.

TinyExplosions

lennymc wrote: »

Have you taken any training courses or is that what you think they consist of? Genuine question from someone who is interested in the education side of things.

Not taken any, but have looked at the fluff material on a few, and it all seems to be the 'Wear a magic hat and a sam browne belt and cower on the side of the road' brigade, rather than a better discussion of the rules of the road and being assertive, taking control etc etc

Raam

Who else went to the traffic school in Clontarf when it was open? I know all my school did.

dubmess

DCC started training people to run these courses. I was on the training course myself. Bikeability were brought over from the UK to 'train the trainers'.

As far as I'm aware the DCC officer in charge retired and with him went the drive to get these courses regularly implemented in schools across the country.

Also... schools were to get subsidised for offering this training, but I think that money got pulled.

This is a couple of years ago now so don't take it as gospel...

Spook_ie

TinyExplosions wrote: »

I think that most 'training courses' are the sort that drill silly ideas into people, like 'Helmets are magic hats that save you from all harm', and 'Stick 8 lights on your bike and turn em on during the day and you'll be seen', 'if you don't wear high vis you'll be brown bread' and that sort of junk, rather than just promoting cycling as a fun way of getting around the place that's also good for you.

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I just don't see the point of these sort of courses.

Maybe the cynic in me to, but did you actually look at what the three modular levels comprise of in the pdf I linked?

Goes much further than magic hats etc.

TinyExplosions

Spook_ie wrote: »

Maybe the cynic in me to, but did you actually look at what the three modular levels comprise of in the pdf I linked?

Goes much further than magic hats etc.

I sure did read em...

bogmanfan

As someone who cycles into the city centre every day I would say that the standard of cycling is pretty bad and anything that would help to improve it would be great. Unfortunately cyclists are a 'one for all, all for one' bunch, and whenever somebody criticises a cyclist's behaviour they get shouted down. Just yesterday, at Hanlon's Corner a girl took an illegal right turn, through a red light and headed up towards Phibsboro. She was blasted out of it by the cars who had right of way, and and who had to brake when they saw her. This morning I saw four cyclists on the quays happily ride up the inside of a bus with its left indicator on :eek:
When I was in primary school (a fair few years ago now) we had an excellent cycle training programme after school. Took us through the basics of safely navigating junctions, rules of the road etc. Very badly needed today in my opinion.

Dermot Illogical

I'd agree with most of this, with the exception of the "one for all" bit. It seems to me that cyclists are grouped together by non-cyclists rather than having some form of common bond themselves. This shows up regularly on this forum in the form of "you lot think...<insert ranty bit here>"

I do think training is very worthwhile if it is of a high standard. Putting a lid and bib on someone and telling them "Mind how you go." isn't enough. I've done motorcycle training to RoSPA gold level and it was probably the most worthwhile training I've ever done in any area of my life. It translates very nicely to cycling too.

Anything with an emphasis on roadcraft would get a big thumbs up from me.

bogmanfan wrote: »

As someone who cycles into the city centre every day I would say that the standard of cycling is pretty bad and anything that would help to improve it would be great. Unfortunately cyclists are a 'one for all, all for one' bunch, and whenever somebody criticises a cyclist's behaviour they get shouted down. Just yesterday, at Hanlon's Corner a girl took an illegal right turn, through a red light and headed up towards Phibsboro. She was blasted out of it by the cars who had right of way, and and who had to brake when they saw her. This morning I saw four cyclists on the quays happily ride up the inside of a bus with its left indicator on :eek:
When I was in primary school (a fair few years ago now) we had an excellent cycle training programme after school. Took us through the basics of safely navigating junctions, rules of the road etc. Very badly needed today in my opinion.

Squidgy Black

Raam wrote: »

Who else went to the traffic school in Clontarf when it was open? I know all my school did.

We did too, can't remember learning much though, only bombing it around the little course they had on go karts.

studiorat

I did one in school years ago. The Gardai did it, or at least it was a Garda who delivered the course. Learned a bit of road craft and got to play with little traffic cones he put out.

I may be way off the mark but I think the Gardai on their bikes doing an afternoon in schools would be a really good opportunity to get in with the kids and to teach them a little bit of road craft. Paying for it is obviously another matter.

I never got to go to that traffic school in Clontarf. (

galwaycyclist

Spook_ie wrote: »

Is it not about time that cycling organisations, the RSA etc. brought into cycle education.

Catch them young BEFORE they start driving makes them aware of the pros and cons of cycling in traffic and educates them HOW to actually cycle in traffic and should make them more aware as drivers ( when and if they decide to learn to drive ) of how to intereract with cyclists

<snip>

Just seems that it's easier to keep blaming everyone else instead of grasping the nettles

Hi Spook - we're ahead of you there. Cyclist.ie, the National Cycling Lobby Group, has fourteen people who are qualified as Bikeability/National Standard instructors under the UK program. We are also tied in with Instructor Trainers in the north.

It is our position that cycle training should be provided for all schoolchildren.

It is our view that, to be considered qualified, anyone engaged in road design or traffic planning should have to have taken national standard cycle training to Level 3. It should also be a standard part of Garda training.

We would like to see cycle training of some description incorporated into driver training. Ideally cycle training should be seen as the foundation of driver training. Driving instructors should also be required to undertake cycle training or show some understanding of what modern cycle training involves.

Spook_ie

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Hi Spook - we're ahead of you there. Cyclist.ie, the National Cycling Lobby Group, has fourteen people who are qualified as Bikeability/National Standard instructors under the UK program. We are also tied in with Instructor Trainers in the north.

It is our position that cycle training should be provided for all schoolchildren.

It is our view that, to be considered qualified, anyone engaged in road design or traffic planning should have to have taken national standard cycle training to Level 3. It should also be a standard part of Garda training.

We would like to see cycle training of some description incorporated into driver training. Ideally cycle training should be seen as the foundation of driver training. Driving instructors should also be required to undertake cycle training or show some understanding of what modern cycle training involves.

That's good to hear on here but shouldn't someone be telling the rest of the world?

I assume it falls back on the usual authorities cries of "How do we pay for it?"

Hermy

Spook_ie wrote: »

No what I mean is you get drivers blaming cyclists and pedestrians, you get cyclists blaming pedestrians and drivers and pedestrians blaming cyclists and drivers.

I think this is the nub of the issue - too many road users are far too quick to blame the other party when things go wrong and very reluctant to admit that their own actions may be at fault.

Spook_ie

Hermy wrote: »

I think this is the nub of the issue - too many road users are far too quick to blame the other party when things go wrong and very reluctant to admit that their own actions may be at fault.

Quite possibly, which means that we need to educate from the bottom (feet? ) up

Every one is a pedestrian, A lot are cyclists, Some are drivers, some are a combination of 2 or 3 of them so where would the most cost effective and efficient point of training be?

Hermy

I really don't know where you'd start but some incidents come to mind which I think demonstrate the scale of the task.

There was the Garda I encountered on Stephens Green texting while driving. And her colleague who turned left from Custom House Quay into Memorial Road. And the ambulance driver on Custom House Quay who clipped my mirror as he attempted to pass me in the left lane approaching where the two lanes merge at Georges Dock. Or his colleague who tried something similar in a bus lane on the south quays just as the bus lane becomes a left turning lane only!

Whatever about every other Tom, Dick and Harry, but when you witness the emergency services showing such utter contempt for road safety you have to wonder is it actually possible to address the incompetence that too many of us display too often when using the public highways.

Vizzy

This type of training( or at least one part of it-the teaching kids to cycle safely,bit)is delivered up and down the country by Local Authority Road Safety Officers in conjunction with cycle trainers and part funding by the RSA.
In our county there are roughly 1,000 primary school kids( 4th,5th & 6th class) put through the training every year.
I know that it doesn't address the "cycling in traffic"type of thing but at least it instills the basis of safe cycling and more importantly,a bit of common sense.

Spook_ie

Vizzy wrote: »

This type of training( or at least one part of it-the teaching kids to cycle safely,bit)is delivered up and down the country by Local Authority Road Safety Officers in conjunction with cycle trainers and part funding by the RSA.
In our county there are roughly 1,000 primary school kids( 4th,5th & 6th class) put through the training every year.
I know that it doesn't address the "cycling in traffic"type of thing but at least it instills the basis of safe cycling and more importantly,a bit of common sense.

You talking about Ireland? If so it certainly doesn't seem to be a countrywide initiative. Neither of my children were ever offered it in N. Co Dublin

Vizzy

It may not be completely nationwide but I am aware of at least 10 local authorities that use this initiative.The guy in Dublin city was very pro-active in relation to road safety and particularly cycle safety but sadly he is now retired.
There is generally some cycling initiative in every local authority during bike week but the type of initiative will vary from county to county.
In our area,representatives of the 1,000 kids( about 250 from 15 or 16 schools)are invited to a kind of "competition day" during bike week.TBH it is just an excuse to allow that many kids have a bit of fun on bike but we give out medals,feed the kids,bit of face painting,music etc.They love it !!:D