Houses on the property price register that were never advertised for sale?

messinkiapina

I've been keeping a very close eye on the property market in Cork for about 2 years now. I check daft and myhome almost daily, and have always kept an eye on the allsop site too. So I have a very good idea of what's been on the market recently.

I've noticed however that there are a good few properties showing as 'sold' on the property price register website that I can never recall being advertised for sale on daft/myhome/allsop. These properties seem to have sold for less than you would expect, even considering the current climate. Anybody know what's going on there?

ArraMusha

These are sales off market and at realistic prices. Most auctioneers windows and ads are still askin mad prices...the register is showing what stuff is really selling for.

messinkiapina

ArraMusha wrote: »

These are sales off market and at realistic prices. Most auctioneers windows and ads are still askin mad prices...the register is showing what stuff is really selling for.

How do these 'off market' sales come about? Are they ordinary people who sell their own properties privately?

Maybe I'm imagining it, but it looks to me like some of those properties could have fetched a good bit more if advertised publicly, which makes me wonder if there is something more sinister going on. Maybe I need to take off the tinfoil hat?

Alias G

There are myriad reasons why these properties were never put on the open market. A parent could have sold a house to their son/daughter or a tenant could be purchasing from the council are just two examples. As for ArraMushas suggestion that this represents realistic value, who knows maybe you're right but that is merely speculation.

hfallada

A house on my road which never went on the market and the person hasn't died so it wasn't a quiet sale. But it was listed as being sold as €80,000 on the register site. The house 2 doors down is for sale for €650,000 and they are pretty identical. So it was probably an admin error

hardCopy

Back in 97 when my family moved house we were very close to our neighbours, my folks were only willing to move to a very specific location. They didn't want the neighbours knowing they consisted moving in case it fell through.

They told two of the local agents they could have the sale if they could source them a house in the particular location, on condition that no sign went up in the driveway or in the agent's window.

The agent just showed the house to anyone who enquired about houses in the area and had everything wrapped up in a few weeks.

Close friends were told straight away but most of the neighbours knew nothing until a SOLD sign went up.

That was pre-daft but I'm sure some people still keep things private for their own reasons.

StillWaters

A common reason I'd imagine is a relationship breakdown and one partner buying the other out.

ted1

hfallada wrote: »

A house on my road which never went on the market and the person hasn't died so it wasn't a quiet sale. But it was listed as being sold as €80,000 on the register site. The house 2 doors down is for sale for €650,000 and they are pretty identical. So it was probably an admin error

Or away around inheritance tax.

Lots of houses around that price are the council selling houses to tenants

testicle

StillWaters wrote: »

A common reason I'd imagine is a relationship breakdown and one partner buying the other out.

Those ones are marked as not being the full value.

hfallada

ted1 wrote: »

Or away around inheritance tax.

Lots of houses around that price are the council selling houses to tenants

No because if they sell the house they will have to pay capital gains tax. Believe the house is the furthest thing from a council house. Similar houses were once selling for €1.4 million.

gurramok

Glad someone else noticed, i've highlighted this topic on the PPR sticky thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83821193&postcount=365

I think it's also the case of the bank doing a deal with a distressed mortgage holder.

Pawwed Rig

ted1 wrote: »

Or away around inheritance tax.

You can't avoid inheritance tax like that as market value is assumed

ted1

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

You can't avoid inheritance tax like that as market value is assumed

That's if you inherit it, in this case it's being purchased.

The Gride

Or the brown envelope could be alive and well and living in your area ......

Pawwed Rig

ted1 wrote: »

That's if you inherit it, in this case it's being purchased.

But inheritance tax is due when you inherit it. For example if I inherit a house worth €250,000 that is what I pay inheritance tax on regardless of the price I sell it for.
If it is sold for below market value then we need to worry about gift tax. If I sell the same house to my sister for €150,000 then she is taxable on my gift to her of €100,000.

(less exemptions etc)

hfallada

The Gride wrote: »

Or the brown envelope could be alive and well and living in your area ......

No because its the same neighbour. Even if it was brown envelope when they sell they have to pay Capital gains tax

The Gride

hfallada wrote: »

No because its the same neighbour. Even if it was brown envelope when they sell they have to pay Capital gains tax

Unless they sell to another brown envelope customer ! ! !

ted1

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But inheritance tax is due when you inherit it. For example if I inherit a house worth €250,000 that is what I pay inheritance tax on regardless of the price I sell it for.
If it is sold for below market value then we need to worry about gift tax. If I sell the same house to my sister for €150,000 then she is taxable on my gift to her of €100,000.

(less exemptions etc)

do they actually check? I bought a house last May on th eopen market, are you tellign me revenue checked to see what the house was worth and if i paid the market price?

if i bought below market price shouidl i have paid gift tax, should the people buying discounted council houses pay gift tax on the difference.

Capital gaisn is payable on the sale of the house, if its a good family home, perhaps there is no intention to sell at a later date and hence its not an issue

Pawwed Rig

ted1 wrote: »

do they actually check? I bought a house last May on the open market, are you telling me revenue checked to see what the house was worth and if i paid the market price?

Market price can be assumed where the house is sold on the open market in that the market value is what a willing buyer will spend on a property in an arm’s length transaction. Your solicitor would have informed Revenue of the price paid when he paid the stamp duty on your behalf.
Issues arise when the sale is between connected parties more so than the situation you describe above.
But you are correct in that our tax regime is a self assessment regime in that we declare what tax should be paid ourselves. It would be assumed that where there is doubt you would engage a competent person to advise you. I am sure it does happen where people under/over declare* the values of property for SD reason. Revenue can audit any tax payer at any time and often do. If there was a anomaly in a price for an area I am sure this would flag somewhere.

ted1 wrote: »

Capital gains is payable on the sale of the house, if it’s a good family home, perhaps there is no intention to sell at a later date and hence it’s not an issue

I am not sure I understand your point here. There will be no capital gains tax on a family home as it would avail of the PPR exemption. In the event of a family home that is inherited by the 'children' after the death of the parents CAT would be applied on the market value (less exemptions). During the probate period the house should be valued by a competent person. The CAT will be based on this valuation. CGT will arise on any uplift on this valuation if the house is subsequently sold in the future (assuming PPR does not apply).


*In fact I know it does happen as when I was purchasing a house in 2003 100% of the estate agents I dealt with 'suggested' an under the counter top up payment to avoid the higher rate of SD which at the time stepped up at around €190K (I think).

ted1

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Market price can be assumed where the house is sold on the open market in that the market value is what a willing buyer will spend on a property in an arm’s length transaction. Your solicitor would have informed Revenue of the price paid when he paid the stamp duty on your behalf.
Issues arise when the sale is between connected parties more so than the situation you describe above.
But you are correct in that our tax regime is a self assessment regime in that we declare what tax should be paid ourselves. It would be assumed that where there is doubt you would engage a competent person to advise you. I am sure it does happen where people under/over declare* the values of property for SD reason. Revenue can audit any tax payer at any time and often do. If there was a anomaly in a price for an area I am sure this would flag somewhere.


I am not sure I understand your point here. There will be no capital gains tax on a family home as it would avail of the PPR exemption. In the event of a family home that is inherited by the 'children' after the death of the parents CAT would be applied on the market value (less exemptions). During the probate period the house should be valued by a competent person. The CAT will be based on this valuation. CGT will arise on any uplift on this valuation if the house is subsequently sold in the future (assuming PPR does not apply).


*In fact I know it does happen as when I was purchasing a house in 2003 100% of the estate agents I dealt with 'suggested' an under the counter top up payment to avoid the higher rate of SD which at the time stepped up at around €190K (I think).

sorry confusign myself with the Capital gains tax..

with regards stamp duty, i can't seen that beign an issue anymore as its only 1% for properties sub €1M

Despot Dan

Alias G wrote: »

There are myriad reasons why these properties were never put on the open market. A parent could have sold a house to their son/daughter or a tenant could be purchasing from the council are just two examples.

Other examples could be a crooked agent or solicitor duping a client or a bank manager selling repossessed houses to their mates

Despot Dan

Dose anyone know why property sold at Allsop's auctions has not been added to the property price register ? (past auctions that is,not today's farce)

gurramok

Interesting Despot Dan. I have just checked one house I do know was at auction a few months ago and sold, it ain't on the register yet either.

messinkiapina

I was bidding on a house which sold to another bidder 12 months ago (estate agent, not at a public auction) and it's never showed up on the PPR.