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Octane Boosters. Opinions/Experience

  • 28-05-2013 6:54am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305
    ✭✭


    Hi.
    As per thread title - have you ever used any of octane boosting additives?

    If not, what do you think/know about them.

    I have noticed that the turbo gauge on my car isn't boosting up to the red section when I fill up in certain garages.

    The owner's manual for my car states that for optimum performance a RON98 petrol should be used. Because none of the garages around me sells it, I decided to try an octane booster fuel addidtive.

    After couple of days my MIL came on. Scanning revealed following error: "Random missfire detected, Cylinder 1&2". I took out the spark plugs (Almost new) and they were covered with red/rusty colour substance.
    I cleaned the plugs and the error went.

    So i'm thinking - did I get unlucky with using crappy addidtive or should I better stay away from them? Have you ever used any of them and what was your experience?

    My knowledge so far about the matter: Higher octane won't create bigger bang but it's easier for ECU to control detonation if higher octane fuel is used so it can allow extra turbo pressure and more petrol in to the combustion chambers, resulting in higher power output.

    Car: 2003 Saab 9-5 Aero. (T7 management system)

    Regards.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ironclaw
    ✭✭✭


    Personally wouldn't bother. I'd just fill in the major brand stations and avoid 'cheap' petrol i.e. Tesco's etc. And maybe run the odd bit of fuel detergent through it. I think the expense of trying to recreate 98 wouldn't be worth it in the long run as the octane booster will be harsh on the overall system.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 Drummerboy08
    ✭✭✭✭


    I use Miller's CVL in the race car and it works wonders.

    Wouldn't really be bothered using it for road applications though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,088 _Kaiser_
    ✭✭✭✭


    Actually on a related point.. Was in Woodies yesterday and saw some of these fuel cleaners/additives in the car section. Are they any use or a gimmick or worse, are certain cars temperamental with them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,730 dan_ep82
    ✭✭✭


    more than likely you weren't achieving max boost due to a bad spark more so than the fuel. Just put petrol in with new spark plugs. If it still isnt reaching maximum boost check for leaks in the vac lines around the turbo,intercooler etc. To be honest oem boost gauges are next to useless,worthgetting an after market one to check the pressures


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ironclaw
    ✭✭✭


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Actually on a related point.. Was in Woodies yesterday and saw some of these fuel cleaners/additives in the car section. Are they any use or a gimmick or worse, are certain cars temperamental with them?

    The odd bit is ok. Your not suppose to run the car on them constantly. That's the key difference between cheap and brand fuel, the overall additives in them.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,088 _Kaiser_
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    ironclaw wrote: »
    The odd bit is ok. Your not suppose to run the car on them constantly. That's the key difference between cheap and brand fuel, the overall additives in them.

    Well I always fill up in a Topaz (have a fuel card which makes managing the costs easier) so I'd imagine I'm probably alright then, or is it worth throwing the odd bit in as well?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 890 dh0011
    ✭✭✭


    it is not an octane booster but I have been using Dipetane for over a year now with every fill. Have also converted a few friends to it. It gives fuel savings and aparently cleans carbon deposits from the engine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,985 dgt
    ✭✭✭✭


    We use Lucas octane booster in the W126 as it needs 98ron. No issues to report, works fine


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ironclaw
    ✭✭✭


    dh0011 wrote: »
    it is not an octane booster but I have been using Dipetane for over a year now with every fill. Have also converted a few friends to it. It gives fuel savings and aparently cleans carbon deposits from the engine.

    Clean, yes. And I'd recommend it.

    Savings, No.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 890 dh0011
    ✭✭✭


    I am getting about an extra 40 miles per fillup more since i started using it. I thought it might be because the engine had about 100K on it and it cleaned deposits on the cylinders.
    A friend of mine who converted after i told him my experience has a similar story. Not sure what else it could be to be honest. I assumed that the improvement had to be down to dipetane.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ironclaw
    ✭✭✭


    dh0011 wrote: »
    I am getting about an extra 40 miles per fillup more since i started using it. I thought it might be because the engine had about 100K on it and it cleaned deposits on the cylinders.
    A friend of mine who converted after i told him my experience has a similar story. Not sure what else it could be to be honest. I assumed that the improvement had to be down to dipetane.

    There was a huge thread on it here a while back, basically the cost of Dipetane when used correctly will dilute any savings. From memory it adds about 3 to 5c to every litre of fuel by the time you absorb all the costs. Add to that most people don't drive consistently and the quality of different fuel stations, it won't 'save' you anything. If anything it costs you more.

    But there is no arguing it does clean and run a car smoother.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 890 dh0011
    ✭✭✭


    I am fairly particular about where I fill up the car it is almost always at one of three topaz stations in cork (charleville, mallow and the carrigrohane rd). The car spends ove 90% of its life between charleville and cork.
    It may be that I did something else that gave me the savings on fuel and just didnt realise it.

    I will agree 100% without a doubt that it is a happier car with dipetane than without it. NCT results on emissions are fierce low aswell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 B00056718
    ✭✭


    Thanks all for the responses. Some interesting points already.

    I guess I'll try some of the named boosters.

    As for Dipetane - I was using it in my Fabia SDI and the difference was incredible - it was very happy engine and the mpg figures improved rapidly. Then I tried it in petrol BMW and in named above Saab without any noticeable differences whatsoever.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,380 derry
    ✭✭✭


    all fuel experments at your own risk
    All the fuel in ROI comes from Cork refinery.Its all the same generally a few additives added but sod all difference .In winter there is winter formula and in summer summer formula .Some smaller garages can have old tanks that let water in or have lots of gunge at bottom but that's still not truly proved and seems to be just rumors

    What has been proved is that in general the ROI petrol fuels are of the lowest quality in the EU and that has been proved in the two stroke engines .Two stroke engines which often in the rest of the EU will run with 50:1 ratio petrol oil or 2% lubrication oil have found that to stop problems in Ireland teh same 2 stroke engines in Ireland need 4% oil 25:1.Low quality petrol will have less ability to lubricate the parts properly and so adding extra 2 stroke lubrication oil will help the 2 stroke engines .

    Four stroke engine show this problem up in extra soot bad burning and misfiring when looking for top end power. Buying racing fuel some 20liter (wait until fuel tank with crap ROI fuel is near empty and fill) at about €5 a liter will show you that put that in the same sick car will gain power and stop acting the mick

    Octane is not a measure of power and there are many ways to increase octane .Octane simply means the fuel is slower to ignite so will tolerate higher compression ratio
    If you put very high octane fuel into low compression engine the fuel will be reluctant to ignite and more fuel will tend to be wasted . The timing advanced more can reduce this waste but not stop all the waste

    However putting low octane fuel into high compression engine will wreck it as the fuel will pre detonate and cause ping and burn holes in the pitons or worse

    Adding ethanol to the Petrol will increase the octane . Ethanol has RON in the ~104 region .Fuel with ~96 RON add 25% ethanol will give the fuel RON of ~98 approx

    It was easy to add Ethanol few years ago all i did was buy some few gallons of E85 fuel ( 85% ethanol 15% petrol)from the four court pumps and add some to the fuel tank .This cleaner burning fuel didn't add so much extra power to car but reduced the burden on the car from running on crappy Irish petrol and spark plug life was extended a lot .Then the government stopped the sales of ethanol fuel so don't know where you can buy Ethanol so easy in ROI and it €2 a liter from north if you buy 1000 liters of it for heating fuel .

    More dirty solution is buy the some of the petrol fuel components separately that are in petrol and add some to the fuel you buy from the pumps to get the fuel to more like normal fuel.
    One of the high octane components is called Toluene basically a nasty stuff very similar to paint thinner . Modern cars will run on ~100% toluene but the odor coming out the tail pipe would knock you and when engine is cold and cat isn't working will poison the local region .Most EU petrol will have between 10% to 60% Toluene.in the fuel the average seems to be ~30% and the ROI is it seems on the lower ends .
    Racing car fuel is often just petrol with higher amounts of toluene in the fuel.
    Chemical places will sell drums of toluene (sometimes with less VAT rates as if they don't know that it goes to car fuel the tax rates can be lower). Adding some 2 liters of Toluene to every 20 liters ROI petrol will probably improve the fuel RON and help high compression engines perform better. The higher the compression ratio the more toluene is the rule many the racing guys use (However the stuff is so toxic that you really need a HAZMAT space suit to work with it )
    The more the Toluene the less the MPG tends to be as more of the fuel escapes into the exhaust unburnt and the cat burns it up. If the compression is raised to run on high Toluene this loss of MPG can be reduced

    There are other fuel components in the petrol but these tend to be harder to source and some are so toxic like Benzine you need to be refinery to work with the stuff .Petrol in ROI can have some 1% benzine in it but some often poorer country can have as much as 5% and that often makes the locals who breath that stuff sick as dogs

    I always stuck with easy to use Ethanol as its clean burning relatively non toxic (if you drink in moderation LOL) when it was for sale as E85

    Many car clubs from the UK when visiting Ireland are now more often recommending their club users not to buy ROI fuel while visiting ROI as it seems the quality of it is a issue

    Derry


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,885 MetzgerMeister
    ✭✭✭✭


    Octane boosters are a bit of a waste to be honest. It takes 10 octane points to equal 1 octane number. Adding a bottle of octane booster will increase 95 RON petrol to something like 95.3 RON. That's a generous increase and might not even be so high but let's say 1 bottle = 3 octane points, it would take around 11 bottles to increase 95 RON to 98 RON.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 B00056718
    ✭✭


    derry wrote: »
    all fuel experments at your own risk
    All the fuel in ROI comes from Cork refinery.Its all the same generally a few additives added but sod all difference .In winter there is winter formula and in summer summer formula .Some smaller garages can have old tanks that let water in or have lots of gunge at bottom but that's still not truly proved and seems to be just rumors

    What has been proved is that in general the ROI petrol fuels are of the lowest quality in the EU and that has been proved in the two stroke engines .Two stroke engines which often in the rest of the EU will run with 50:1 ratio petrol oil or 2% lubrication oil have found that to stop problems in Ireland teh same 2 stroke engines in Ireland need 4% oil 25:1.Low quality petrol will have less ability to lubricate the parts properly and so adding extra 2 stroke lubrication oil will help the 2 stroke engines .

    Four stroke engine show this problem up in extra soot bad burning and misfiring when looking for top end power. Buying racing fuel some 20liter (wait until fuel tank with crap ROI fuel is near empty and fill) at about €5 a liter will show you that put that in the same sick car will gain power and stop acting the mick

    Octane is not a measure of power and there are many ways to increase octane .Octane simply means the fuel is slower to ignite so will tolerate higher compression ratio
    If you put very high octane fuel into low compression engine the fuel will be reluctant to ignite and more fuel will tend to be wasted . The timing advanced more can reduce this waste but not stop all the waste

    However putting low octane fuel into high compression engine will wreck it as the fuel will pre detonate and cause ping and burn holes in the pitons or worse

    Adding ethanol to the Petrol will increase the octane . Ethanol has RON in the ~104 region .Fuel with ~96 RON add 25% ethanol will give the fuel RON of ~98 approx

    It was easy to add Ethanol few years ago all i did was buy some few gallons of E85 fuel ( 85% ethanol 15% petrol)from the four court pumps and add some to the fuel tank .This cleaner burning fuel didn't add so much extra power to car but reduced the burden on the car from running on crappy Irish petrol and spark plug life was extended a lot .Then the government stopped the sales of ethanol fuel so don't know where you can buy Ethanol so easy in ROI and it €2 a liter from north if you buy 1000 liters of it for heating fuel .

    More dirty solution is buy the some of the petrol fuel components separately that are in petrol and add some to the fuel you buy from the pumps to get the fuel to more like normal fuel.
    One of the high octane components is called Toluene basically a nasty stuff very similar to paint thinner . Modern cars will run on ~100% toluene but the odor coming out the tail pipe would knock you and when engine is cold and cat isn't working will poison the local region .Most EU petrol will have between 10% to 60% Toluene.in the fuel the average seems to be ~30% and the ROI is it seems on the lower ends .
    Racing car fuel is often just petrol with higher amounts of toluene in the fuel.
    Chemical places will sell drums of toluene (sometimes with less VAT rates as if they don't know that it goes to car fuel the tax rates can be lower). Adding some 2 liters of Toluene to every 20 liters ROI petrol will probably improve the fuel RON and help high compression engines perform better. The higher the compression ratio the more toluene is the rule many the racing guys use (However the stuff is so toxic that you really need a HAZMAT space suit to work with it )
    The more the Toluene the less the MPG tends to be as more of the fuel escapes into the exhaust unburnt and the cat burns it up. If the compression is raised to run on high Toluene this loss of MPG can be reduced

    There are other fuel components in the petrol but these tend to be harder to source and some are so toxic like Benzine you need to be refinery to work with the stuff .Petrol in ROI can have some 1% benzine in it but some often poorer country can have as much as 5% and that often makes the locals who breath that stuff sick as dogs

    I always stuck with easy to use Ethanol as its clean burning relatively non toxic (if you drink in moderation LOL) when it was for sale as E85

    Many car clubs from the UK when visiting Ireland are now more often recommending their club users not to buy ROI fuel while visiting ROI as it seems the quality of it is a issue

    Derry

    That's seriously impressive.
    Thanks for your input. Very comprehensive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 890 dh0011
    ✭✭✭


    B00056718 wrote: »
    That's seriously impressive.
    Thanks for your input. Very comprehensive.

    +1 Derry you seem to know what your at.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 B00056718
    ✭✭


    Octane boosters are a bit of a waste to be honest. It takes 10 octane points to equal 1 octane number. Adding a bottle of octane booster will increase 95 RON petrol to something like 95.3 RON. That's a generous increase and might not even be so high but let's say 1 bottle = 3 octane points, it would take around 11 bottles to increase 95 RON to 98 RON.

    I threw the bottle I had out. It stated that one bottle will treat 50L of petrol and will rise the octane by 3 something. Now I'm curious to see what was the unit used.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,004 ironclaw
    ✭✭✭


    B00056718 wrote: »
    That's seriously impressive.
    Thanks for your input. Very comprehensive.
    dh0011 wrote: »
    +1 Derry you seem to know what your at.

    While impressive it comes from the same poster that argued tooth and nail about diesels from plastics, and other generally ramblings on fuel economy. Pinch of salt warning.




  • B00056718 wrote: »
    I threw the bottle I had out. It stated that one bottle will treat 50L of petrol and will rise the octane by 3 something. Now I'm curious to see what was the unit used.

    Let us know how you're getting on. On a ten year old Trionic 7 car there are several reasons apart from petrol quality that could explain why the air mass ("boost" gauge actually shows airmass as reported by the AMM) reads lower than expected.

    Best way to troubleshoot one is to have openSID activated and then to see if iOff is limiting performance due knocking, if boost and airmass are out of sync due to tired AMM etc. etc. Then there are the leaky evap valves and in general leaks in the induction system.

    PM if you need more info.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
    ✭✭✭✭


    There is some evidence that just under 2ml of NMMA TC-W3 compliant two-stroke oil mixed with each litre of petrol is quite beneficial, both raising the octane level slightly and providing that wonderful additive package. Most of those expensive JASO-FC compliant "racing" concoctions available at bike shops would be effectively the same. ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 Matt Simis
    ✭✭✭


    dgt wrote: »
    We use Lucas octane booster in the W126 as it needs 98ron. No issues to report, works fine

    Which W126? Its such an ancient engine and management system with low compression it shouldnt need anything close to 98RON. They also have a Timing Advance (EZL) toggle that will allow retardation of ignition to run lower quality fuels.

    I would be a lot less worried about Octane but more worried about the effect the additive will have on the temperamental fuel distribution "spider web" assembly.
    jimgoose wrote: »
    There is some evidence that just under 2ml of NMMA TC-W3 compliant two-stroke oil mixed with each litre of petrol is quite beneficial, both raising the octane level slightly and providing that wonderful additive package. Most of those expensive JASO-FC compliant "racing" concoctions available at bike shops would be effectively the same. ;)
    Any links to said evidence? 2ml per litre (180ml per 90litre, just over half a coke can or 0.2%) seems like a fairly insignificant amount to expect any improvement from?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
    ✭✭✭✭


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    ...Any links to said evidence? 2ml per litre (180ml per 90litre, just over half a coke can or 0.2%) seems like a fairly insignificant amount to expect any improvement from?

    http://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/

    This is corroborated by a good many folk in North America and the UK, most of whom know exactly what they are at and many of whom run small fleets of old and not-so-old Jags as well as all sorts of interesting toys.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 Matt Simis
    ✭✭✭


    jimgoose wrote: »
    http://www.ls1.com/forums/f48/been-testing-oil-91206/

    This is corroborated by a good many folk in North America and the UK, most of whom know exactly what they are at and many of whom run small fleets of old and not-so-old Jags as well as all sorts of interesting toys.

    Thanks, Ill definitely give it a try in my E31.

    Interesting the German guy on the forum was advocating much higher concentrations:
    So finally I have ended up in this discussion, and I just have started using 2stroke oil for my v6 motor. Idle was not smooth at all for about 6 months now, all tests have been negative, no reason found for the vibrations, even the new sparkplugs didn't help. A Mercedes V6 is supposed to run smooth. So I gave it a try, I had nothing to loose; almost after a minute idle got better. after the first 500km I can say, that idle is not perfect yet, but much better. Also milage might got better, I will see.

    In the german forum one guy said a mix of about 1:200-1:250 should be good, I had about 0,250l oil on 59l gasoline. In the very beginning, I had a strong smell of the 2stroke oil, but not anymore.
    So far, I am very happy with the results and will try it on my wife's car soon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,883 pa990
    ✭✭✭


    derry wrote: »
    .................Then the government stopped the sales of ethanol fuel...............
    Derry

    Did they really ????


    http://www.maxol.ie/?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=49
    "How the end of the duty derogation i.e. the addition of duty to E85 affects its price.

    The raw cost of the bio-ethanol is more expensive to produce than the base cost of petrol and also subject to significantly lower economies of scale in production and demand. Currently, however this is largely offset by the Government’s duty derogation of 44.27cent per litre on bioethanol based bio fuels. As discussed above, this derogation comes to an end on 31st December 2010 and were Maxol to continue selling this fuel its pump price would overnight increase by circa 53 cent per litre (i.e. 44.27 + VAT); an unsustainable price for a litre of motor fuel. This will, undoubtedly lead to the vast majority of flexifuel vehicle owners switching to unleaded petrol instead, with Maxol customers having the alternative of E5 Unleaded, which will continue to contain 5% Ethanol and be retailed at its usual competitive price."



    http://www.enviro-solutions.com/dailynews/111210-maxol-e85-to-stop.htm
    "Maxol has announced that it is to phase out the sale of its ethanol-based E85 motor fuel."
    "It added that the "already extremely modest" demand would inevitably disappear."






    Now where exactly did the Government stop the sale of E85 ?

    and how did you get on with your plastic bag diesel?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,352 Mar4ix
    ✭✭✭


    ha ha .. according nick name you are ITB student.

    related to question, id say octane booster on top of RON 98 would make engine run slightly hotter, and I believe, sparkplugs not designed for that, and cant handle that properly, there is term of hot and cold sparkplugs, cold usually goes in to standard engine, which goes with ron 95 petrol, and i think that has to be non turbo, hot sparkplugs has to be used on turboed cars, so make sure you got right sparkplugs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 Matt Simis
    ✭✭✭


    pa990 wrote: »
    Did they really ????
    http://www.maxol.ie/?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=49
    "How the end of the duty derogation i.e. the addition of duty to E85 affects its price.


    Now where exactly did the Government stop the sale of E85 ?

    Well in fairness they removed (ok technically didnt renew) the tax break it garnered due to its clean, renewable and potentially locally produced nature. And actually promoted infinitely dirtier diesel fuel instead. So yes, the government did pretty much kill it via excessive taxation. Much like 98octane fuel in this country too.

    There certainly was no logical reason to tax a minority fuel the same as the regular mineral fuels anyhow as the tax intake was insignificant either way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
    ✭✭✭✭


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    Well in fairness they removed (ok technically didnt renew) the tax break it garnered due to its clean, renewable and potentially locally produced nature. And actually promoted infinitely dirtier diesel fuel instead. So yes, the government did pretty much kill it.

    There certainly was no logical reason to tax a minority fuel the same as the regular mineral fuels anyhow as the tax intake was insignificant either way.

    Ethanol is a spectacularly bad automotive fuel and bio-ethanol is a spectacularly poor automotive fuel source. Corn-derived bioethanol is a terrible way to produce automotive fuel, both in terms of cold, hard efficiency and the way it sends the cost of many basic food products crazy, seriously affecting some of the poorest and most helpless among us.

    Also, it carries up to 25% less energy by volume than petrol, is as acidic as Anne Robinson and spews even more acetaldehyde! Naturally, everyone in Ireland loves it because they heard it was "cheap"...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
    ✭✭✭✭


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    ...Interesting the German guy on the forum was advocating much higher concentrations:

    Be very careful here. The "Some is good, so More is better - right??" way of thinking hits a brick wall pretty quickly with this stuff. Over-oiling leans out the mixture and leads to the way of many a youngfella with a two-stroke bike back in the day - a perdition of holed pistons, seizures and fluent swearing! ;)

    Stick to the original engineer's quoted concentration.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 Matt Simis
    ✭✭✭


    jimgoose wrote: »
    Ethanol is a spectacularly bad automotive fuel and bio-ethanol is a spectacularly poor automotive fuel source. Corn-derived bioethanol is a terrible way to produce automotive fuel, both in terms of cold, hard efficiency and the way it sends the cost of many basic food products crazy, seriously affecting some of the poorest and most helpless among us.

    Also, it carries up to 25% less energy by volume than petrol, is as acidic as Anne Robinson and spews even more acetaldehyde! Naturally, everyone in Ireland loves it because they heard it was "cheap"...

    Who mentioned "corn derived"? :p That US Oil lobby talk and not relevant here. And TBH, Im not remotely interested in the alleged affects on the "poorest and most helpless". Even in the US, not only do they grow Ethanol in off-seasons as part of crop rotation (ie so it has no impact on food stuffs, it may have been used as animal feedstuff), when using the field in its primary crop growing function they sure as hell arent giving any of the proceeds away. Its capitalism, they provide what the market wants.



    I converted a twin turbo car to E85 myself (and not with those ropey injector piggyback things, properly) way more power, sounded better, reved better, virtually eliminated emissions.. even smelled good. I would consider it a fantastic automotive fuel.

    E85 is not acidic at all btw (its an alcohol, its a Neutral, like water)!?
    If you meant "corrosive".. its far less harmful than petrol to most materials. I put this together back in the day as despite what you say, most people in Ireland were afraid of Ethanol due to half-truths and mis-information:

    FuelsvsMaterials.jpg


    IMO, its Gas Fracking that has effectively killed Ethanol for now as it presents a cheaper mineral source, like traditional mineral oils once did.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,885 MetzgerMeister
    ✭✭✭✭


    And Matt produces his diagrams of diagrams amongst his super-detailed analysis of the topic :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
    ✭✭✭✭


    Matt Simis wrote: »
    Who mentioned "corn derived"? :p That US Oil lobby talk and not relevant here. And TBH, Im not remotely interested in the alleged affects on the "poorest and most helpless". Even in the US, not only do they grow Ethanol in off-seasons as part of crop rotation (ie so it has no impact on food stuffs, it may have been used as animal feedstuff), when using the field in its primary crop growing function they sure as hell arent giving any of the proceeds away. Its capitalism, they provide what the market wants.



    I converted a twin turbo car to E85 myself (and not with those ropey injector piggyback things, properly) way more power, sounded better, reved better, virtually eliminated emissions.. even smelled good. I would consider it a fantastic automotive fuel.

    E85 is not acidic at all btw (its an alcohol, its a Neutral, like water)!?
    If you meant "corrosive".. its far less harmful than petrol to most materials. I put this together back in the day as despite what you say, most people in Ireland were afraid of Ethanol due to half-truths and mis-information:

    FuelsvsMaterials.jpg


    IMO, its Gas Fracking that has effectively killed Ethanol for now as it presents a cheaper mineral source, like traditional mineral oils once did.

    Don't tell me what's "relevant here". I know what's relevant here. If it's not corn-derived, it's wheat- or sugar- or potato-derived. And the acidity problems start during/after combustion, under engine conditions, not when you're looking at it in a gallon-can in front of you! Certain emissions are lower yes, but I for one would prefer not to spew a carcinogen into the atmosphere - we do enough damage as it is. BTW, that Cavalier attitude of yours towards the less-fortunate might yet ruin Vauxhalls for all of us. ;)

    Oh and - maybe the complete dismantling and re-assembly of that car's fuel system, presumably with many new and better-than-OE parts, had more to do with it's improvement than the actual fuel conversion!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 Matt Simis
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    jimgoose wrote: »
    Don't tell me what's "relevant here". I know what's relevant here. If it's not corn-derived, it's wheat- or potato-derived.
    It was cheese by-product in Ireland, which is whats relevant here. And either way, its produced in a for-profit industry, if they dont product Ethanol, they produce whatever else sells for the highest ROI, the poor dont get a vote on production goals or fuel for my car, outside of the USSR anyhow.
    jimgoose wrote: »
    And the acidity problems start during/after combustion, under engine conditions, not when you're looking at it in a gallon-can in front of you!
    Yes, very certain and very specific conditions, Ive never seen evidence of this nor any unbiased data supporting it. Possible, but burning any fuel (petrol or diesel or coal or veg oil) also has other negative "possible" outcomes too.
    jimgoose wrote: »
    Certain emissions are lower yes, but I for one would prefer not to spew a carcinogen into the atmosphere - we do enough damage as it is. BTW, that Cavalier attitude of yours towards the less-fortunate might yet ruin Vauxhalls for all of us. ;)
    If you drive a Petrol or [especially] Diesel you emit more carcinogen's than Ethanol fuels. I assume you are referring to the small increase of Acetaldehyde emissions with Ethanol? Correct, but it outputs lower amounts of the other 3 (of 4) major emission carcinogens, which is a net gain isnt it?
    • Butadiene
    • Formaldehyde
    • Benzene

    If you want better than this, you will need to walk or cycle, which I can only assume you do as otherwise none of your previous statements make sense.


    I dont consider myself to have a cavalier attitude, but I would consider making grandiose statements about a fuel type with a misconstrued allusion to helping the downtrodden to be at best, misplaced and incorrect.
    jimgoose wrote: »
    Oh and - maybe the complete dismantling and re-assembly of that car's fuel system, presumably with many new and better-than-OE parts, had more to do with it's improvement than the actual fuel conversion!
    Eh, Im not sure what you could be possibly basing that on, but the improvement had to do with the high octane rating of Ethanol combined with its cooler, cleaner and more efficient burning characteristics. Its dyno proven to add a wallop of torque on most combustion engines.. you dont get that by arbitrarily uprating fueling components!? 10 to 20% improvement is usually cited with minimal to no component changes and combined with lower GHG and Carcinogen emissions. This is all measured data, easily found online.
    In my case, even a passenger in the car could tell if it was on petrol or E85, it was that much more snappy, back to back on the same "better-than-OE" components.


    PS: Also, Vauxhall's? An esoteric play on words with cavalier? ;):confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
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    Matt Simis wrote: »
    It was cheese by-product in Ireland, which is whats relevant here. And either way, its produced in a for-profit industry, if they dont product Ethanol, they produce whatever else sells for the highest ROI, the poor dont get a vote on production goals or fuel for my car, outside of the USSR anyhow.


    Yes, very certain and very specific conditions, Ive never seen evidence of this nor any unbiased data supporting it. Possible, but burning any fuel (petrol or diesel or coal or veg oil) also has other negative "possible" outcomes too.


    If you drive a Petrol or [especially] Diesel you emit more carcinogen's than Ethanol fuels. I assume you are referring to the small increase of Acetaldehyde emissions with Ethanol? Correct, but it outputs lower amounts of the other 3 (of 4) major emission carcinogens, which is a net gain isnt it?
    • Butadiene
    • Formaldehyde
    • Benzene

    If you want better than this, you will need to walk or cycle, which I can only assume you do as otherwise none of your previous statements make sense.


    I dont consider myself to have a cavalier attitude, but I would consider making grandiose statements about a fuel type with a misconstrued allusion to helping the downtrodden to be at best, misplaced and incorrect.
    Eh, Im not sure what you could be possibly basing that on, but the improvement had to do with the high octane rating of Ethanol combined with its cooler, cleaner and more efficient burning characteristics. Its dyno proven to add a wallop of torque on most combustion engines.. you dont get that by arbitrarily uprating fueling components!? 10 to 20% improvement is usually cited with minimal to no component changes and combined with lower GHG and Carcinogen emissions. This is all measured data, easily found online.
    In my case, even a passenger in the car could tell if it was on petrol or E85, it was that much more snappy, back to back on the same "better-than-OE" components.


    PS: Also, Vauxhall's? An esoteric play on words with cavalier? ;):confused:

    Oh yes, I'm the original Earth Mother. ;) I don't use diesel, and don't use a huge amount of petrol either. I'd be interested to see a reasonably complete and accurate breakdown of the various harmful chemicals and amounts emitted by the various setups, mind you. I understand acetaldehyde is a pretty bad one by any standards. Did you know that it causes hangovers?? Bastid thing!! :D

    By cheese by-product you must mean the Carbery whey alcohol plant in Co. Cork. Their ten million litres per year output sounds alright. A few more like it and it might approach Whitegate's 70,000 barrels per-day. Personally I think cheese is expensive enough as it is. ;)

    In BTU terms ethanol is a bit over half as energy-dense as petrol. It is possible via expensive engineering to get within about 10-15% of petrol in terms of fuel efficiency, but of course you know that. Mind you, if E85 ever makes serious inroads into automotive fuelling, the oil companies will probably just jack up the price to maintain their profits at petrol-levels. That's Capitalism for you. And why not indeed. But at that point we'll be paying the same or more for a product that is, as far as most of us are concerned, worse. Watch that aluminium and rubber! :D

    The Australians did a report on this back in 2008:

    http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/ethanol-health-impacts.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,801 Gary ITR
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    Ignoring the drivel above :rolleyes: and getting back the OP, running octane boosters isn't something I'd do in a road car again, it just gets too fiddley, sounds like your car needed new plugs anyway OP.

    The Octance boosters basically stop pre detonation and allow you to advance the ignition timing of your car. All ECU's have an element of self learning but they wouldn't have enough movement to take real advantage of higher octane fuel, while there will be a difference it won't be massive.

    My own car is tuned to run Octane booster which has allowed us advance the ignition timing 30degrees without a hint of det, on pump fuel we would expect it to be knocking it's head off at that level, especially with the ****e fuel we get here, but that's in a race car where every BHP matters, especially in a Honda where torque is sold separately!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
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    Gary ITR wrote: »
    ...My own car is tuned to run Octane booster which has allowed us advance the ignition timing 30degrees without a hint of det, on pump fuel we would expect it to be knocking it's head off at that level, especially with the ****e fuel we get here, but that's in a race car where every BHP matters, especially in a Honda where torque is sold separately!

    You must be running some seriously lumpy cams, at least?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,801 Gary ITR
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    jimgoose wrote: »
    You must be running some seriously lumpy cams, at least?

    High Compression pistons, high compression valves, Buddyclub valve springs and titanium retainers, Buddyclub specIV cams :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 B00056718
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    samih wrote: »
    Let us know how you're getting on. On a ten year old Trionic 7 car there are several reasons apart from petrol quality that could explain why the air mass ("boost" gauge actually shows airmass as reported by the AMM) reads lower than expected.

    Best way to troubleshoot one is to have openSID activated and then to see if iOff is limiting performance due knocking, if boost and airmass are out of sync due to tired AMM etc. etc. Then there are the leaky evap valves and in general leaks in the induction system.

    PM if you need more info.

    I have the air mass meter changed. The engine came out of T5 Aero and in that car it was an absolute animal. It was owned by Saab dealer for a long while so software might have been modified.

    Also, after changing the engine, he PCV system was pressurizing for no reason but I got Dara in Ashbourne (Saab specialist and absolute gentleman) to go trough it and it's perfect now. It's the latest upgrade one too.

    As for open SID, the procedure requires spare ECU. The only one I have is T5. So need to find one first. I'll PM you anyway because I'd love to have it.

    Many suggested new spark plugs but the ones I have only have couple of hundred miles behind them and they are manufacturers reccomended. Also tried changing DI cassette but nothing improved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
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    Gary ITR wrote: »
    High Compression pistons, high compression valves, Buddyclub valve springs and titanium retainers, Buddyclub specIV cams :D

    Durty! :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,718 Matt Simis
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    Gary ITR wrote: »
    The Octance boosters basically stop pre detonation and allow you to advance the ignition timing of your car.

    What Octane booster are you using and in what approx volume?

    @jimgoose - trying out the 2-Stroke stuff today, put in some this morning and will fill up with a bit more later. :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
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    Matt Simis wrote: »
    What Octane booster are you using and in what approx volume?

    @jimgoose - trying out the 2-Stroke stuff today, put in some this morning and will fill up with a bit more later. :D

    Good man. Mind what I said a few posts ago - don't go mad with too much of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,885 MetzgerMeister
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    Matt Simis wrote: »
    What Octane booster are you using and in what approx volume?

    Lucky baxtard if it does actually work for him as it did fook all on the MPS when I was using it for the exact same thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,801 Gary ITR
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    Matt Simis wrote: »
    What Octane booster are you using and in what approx volume?

    @jimgoose - trying out the 2-Stroke stuff today, put in some this morning and will fill up with a bit more later. :D

    Using millers cvl at one bottle for 20 litres. A map to suit is a must though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,195 jimgoose
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    Lucky baxtard if it does actually work for him as it did fook all on the MPS when I was using it for the exact same thing.

    Raising the octane level won't do much of anything on most cars unless you also raise the compression ratio, and ideally change the cam profiles plus a bit of gasflowing. ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,704 Cheensbo
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    Gary ITR wrote: »
    High Compression pistons, high compression valves, Buddyclub valve springs and titanium retainers, Buddyclub specIV cams :D

    What duration are the IV's? around 300deg??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,801 Gary ITR
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    Cheensbo wrote: »
    What duration are the IV's? around 300deg??

    A bit over, 306 on the intake and 302 on the exhaust. With the lift and duration on them they really need increased compression though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,704 Cheensbo
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    Gary ITR wrote: »
    A bit over, 306 on the intake and 302 on the exhaust. With the lift and duration on them they really need increased compression though

    Fark... pretty much no idle and 0 power at low-mid range then? :pac:

    Have you increased the c.r much?

    Have you looked in to itb's?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,801 Gary ITR
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    Cheensbo wrote: »
    Fark... pretty much no idle and 0 power at low-mid range then? :pac:

    Have you increased the c.r much?

    Have you looked in to itb's?

    Ah you're forgetting about the vtec and non vtec lobes :)

    CR is in around 13:1. As for itbs I'm still happy with the plenum, intake is on the rear and I've a savage airbox


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,704 Cheensbo
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    Gary ITR wrote: »
    Ah you're forgetting about the vtec and non vtec lobes :)

    CR is in around 13:1. As for itbs I'm still happy with the plenum, intake is on the rear and I've a savage airbox

    I know nothing of them :pac: (Toyota nut)

    I'm just trying to apply my knowledge of the 4age 20 :)

    Moving on :pac:

    Dipetane is great stuff :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,801 Gary ITR
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    Cheensbo wrote: »
    I know nothing of them :pac: (Toyota nut)


    It just sort of kicks in.... yo


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