Are we a stupidly forgiving nation?

KingOfFairview

It often strikes me that Irish people tend to forgive, well, pretty much anything. This is quite stupid. Not everything should be forgiven.

Think about it: after everything the Church has done, they should have been driven out of the country on a railroad. There response is actually very, very mild, some tut tutting and glowering, no real anger. FF destroyed the country and are now back level with FG in the pools, and would have de facto won the presidential election if it wasn't for Martin McGuiness' intervention. Prison sentences here are pathetically short. You often hear crap like "ah sure we're none of us angels", which is fine in some circumstances, but it seems to be a generalised attitude to almost everything in Ireland.

So, am I on to something? Are we forgiving to a fault? Is that a good or bad thing?

How Soon Is Now

If anything I think where one the worst for holding grudges to be honest.

KingOfFairview

angerfist2009 wrote: »

If anything I think where one the worst for holding grudges to be honest.

Despite all the stuff I've pointed out?

How Soon Is Now

KingOfFairview wrote: »

Despite all the stuff I've pointed out?

All I ever seem to hear these days is people giving out bout the government or the church.

Don't sound like they forgiven anyone

Where not forgiving where just a nation of people who moan till cows come home but do sweet **** all about it when comes down to it.

KingOfFairview

angerfist2009 wrote: »

All I ever seem to hear these days is people giving out bout the government or the church.

Don't sound like they forgiven anyone.

Yeah they whine, but then they vote for FF and get their kids confirmed. That doesn't sound much of a grudge borne to me.

How Soon Is Now

KingOfFairview wrote: »

Yeah they whine, but then they vote for FF and get their kids confirmed. That doesn't sound much of a grudge borne to me.

Like I said we don't forgive we hold grudges where just to lazy and spineless to actually bother to change things though.

Which is why we accept things.

Are we a stupidly forgiving nation?

FF back level with FG in an opinion poll. There are arguments to be made that there are elements of stupidity out there. 'Forgiveness' has absolutely nothing to do with it, aloofness perhaps.

KKkitty

KingOfFairview wrote: »

Yeah they whine, but then they vote for FF and get their kids confirmed. That doesn't sound much of a grudge borne to me.

More like sheep really then. One follows the other out of conformity. Hard to make the best out of a bad lot in this country when they're all as bad as each other.

Sunnyisland

We can forgive but we should not forget.

Bertie Woot

KingOfFairview wrote: »

It often strikes me that Irish people tend to forgive, well, pretty much anything. This is quite stupid. Not everything should be forgiven.

Think about it: after everything the Church has done, they should have been driven out of the country on a railroad. There response is actually very, very mild, some tut tutting and glowering, no real anger. FF destroyed the country and are now back level with FG in the pools, and would have de facto won the presidential election if it wasn't for Martin McGuiness' intervention. Prison sentences here are pathetically short. You often hear crap like "ah sure we're none of us angels", which is fine in some circumstances, but it seems to be a generalised attitude to almost everything in Ireland.

So, am I on to something? Are we forgiving to a fault? Is that a good or bad thing?

Is this a joke? 1641 - an estimated 12000 British settlers piked and pitchforked to death up and down the length of Ireland. 1798 - Catholic United Irishmen turn on and murder Protestants during the rising. Every other Irish rebellion you can think of. Forgiving? My arse. You'll forgive paedophile Priests who have buggered your children, but not the Brits who took a few acres of land.

Aineoil

Hmm.....very interesting post. Do we really forgive? I don't think we do. I think we just say "Sure, no problem, that's grand", and then tear the back off someone to any eejit that will listen and then agree with you. If they don't agree with you, they don't understand how complex the issue is. (But is this just an Irish thing?)

Grudges... I don't hold any grudges, I just hate everyone.

LuciusPax

I love this whole 'we' business when these sort of threads come up.

OP I don't agree with you with regards to the response to the church scandal. Saying it was "actually very, very mild, some tut tutting and glowering, no real anger" is a bit of an understatement isn't it?

As for the complaints aimed towards the government perhaps some of the high-minded individuals in this forum could form their own party and attempt to 'wake up' the people of Ireland from their lazy, spineless, grudge holding stupor? They seem to have a consummate knowledge of the Irish psyche. They keep bleating about how easy the Irish 'sheep' are to control perhaps they should put their theories into practice.

Promac

LuciusPax wrote: »

I love this whole 'we' business when these sort of threads come up.

Yeah, which "we" are we talking about and who should we be forgiving, or not? You don't have to forgive a dog after he steals a bit of your dinner do you? You just keep it out of his reach the next time.

OP - It's your own people that are baptising and confirming their kids in churches and voting for FF.

Having said that - I would rather just get rid of all the churches and a lot of the so called "government" too.

gobnaitolunacy

We're still pissed off about Cromwell, I think we've gotten over the Vikings and their raids though.

KingOfFairview

Promac wrote: »

Yeah, which "we" are we talking about and who should we be forgiving, or not? You don't have to forgive a dog after he steals a bit of your dinner do you? You just keep it out of his reach the next time.

OP - It's your own people that are baptising and confirming their kids in churches and voting for FF.

Having said that - I would rather just get rid of all the churches and a lot of the so called "government" too.

The 'we' is Irish people, as per thread title.

checkyabadself

I`d say we`re more passive than forgiving. We don`t need forgiving when we don`t acknowledge being wronged in the first place.

mf240

We dont assert ourselves as a nation, we grumble and moan but when it come down to it we just roll over and take it.

LuciusPax

KingOfFairview wrote: »

The 'we' is Irish people, as per thread title.

But it's nonsense. You're making a very very loose assumption and applying it to literally millions of people. Just because most Irish people don't want to put on a Guy Fawkes mask and march up and down a street doesn't make them passive or too forgiving.

Laneyh

angerfist2009 wrote: »

Like I said we don't forgive we hold grudges where just to lazy and spineless to actually bother to change things though.

Which is why we accept things.

I think you're confusing the words grudge and begrudging

Rightwing

KingOfFairview wrote: »

Yeah they whine, but then they vote for FF and get their kids confirmed. That doesn't sound much of a grudge borne to me.

We vote for FF because they buy your votes. They increased welfare by hundreds of % for instance. They increased the Public Sector massively.

Now, let's have a look at the Green party, they didn't give out all that much apart from a few insulation grants. Were they forgiven? Were they what!

JD DABA

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Is this a joke? 1641 - an estimated 12000 British settlers piked and pitchforked to death up and down the length of Ireland. 1798 - Catholic United Irishmen turn on and murder Protestants during the rising. Every other Irish rebellion you can think of. Forgiving? My arse. You'll forgive paedophile Priests who have buggered your children, but not the Brits who took a few acres of land.

In fairness that land did have road frontage.

SEPT 23 1989

We have been doped up on that funky water they keep giving us

Gbear

There's probably a whole host of cultural artifacts that have taken on a life of their own.
So it's not solely down to "forgiveness" or stupidity.

The lingering resentment against Britain but not against more contemporaneous wrongs perpetrated against the Irish would suggest an x-factor at play that's more difficult to pin down.

I suspect luck has a part to play. For no real reason people seem to latch on to some notions and let others slide.

I suspect the Catholic church situation is partly down to it being so completely ingrained in our culture that a lot of people can't see the wood for the trees. Perhaps there's an element of that with FF as well.

Either way, it's far more complicated than one neat little explanation covering every case of myopia in Irish history.

hoodwinked

i must be the exception, i have mastered the fabled art of 'Letting it go'
and im irish...

KingOfFairview

One thing is clear: I won't be forgiven for this thread. Shouldn't have used the word stupid.

jugger0

Bertie Woot wrote: »

Is this a joke? 1641 - an estimated 12000 British settlers piked and pitchforked to death up and down the length of Ireland. 1798 - Catholic United Irishmen turn on and murder Protestants during the rising. Every other Irish rebellion you can think of. Forgiving? My arse. You'll forgive paedophile Priests who have buggered your children, but not the Brits who took a few acres of land.

In fairness ya cant compare the 2, the level of death and destruction brought down upon the Irish people by the British is absolutely shocking, saying that if i had my way i'd have Criminal priests burned at the stake.

Fridge

I think you are on to something, yes, but would say in general the nation is more passive than forgiving.

In this type of discussion it's probably best to forget stuff that has happened centuries ago. We're not the same people. And I certainly don't feel like we fit the label of "the fighting Irish" anymore.

It only makes sense / feels right to forgive when there has been a genuine apology and you feel like you won't be wronged again by the same party in the same way.
The Government don't give a crap, they just get away with what they can and skip off with their pensions.
Re: Prison Sentences; Attackers and the like are being punished in the most ridiculously lenient way possible here, if at all. A slap on the wrist for destroying or ending people's lives.

And a more personal level I find many people just give in for an easy life. If you say something like "why are you still friends with this person who beat you up / stole from you", they act like you're "harping on about it".

There's a difference between forgiving someone and just letting them away with murder, rewarding bad behaviour or conveniently forgetting it so history can repeat itself.

Some days I feel like starting up a vigilante army.