Anyone else here disturbed by latest Garda revelations/actions?

yore

This thread is not about penalty points/individual corruption or incompetency. Nor is it about individual Guards such as the one in the papers for forging documents or the ex-guard who's patio was going to be excavated in the last week or so looking for a body that current Guards think is buried there. We all know about these stories. There are bad apples in every barrel.

There has been a lot in the media recently about their interactions with politicians and I find this disturbing. I am not talking about the politics here. I want to talk about it from the other angle.

1) Claire Daly incident: This one is most innocuous of the three but I'll mention it as some people shouted "conspiracy". Whatever the matter of transmission it still remains that it entered the public domain very quickly although it could easily have been via a bystander or third party. (Disclaimer, I can't stand this bint)
2) Ming's magical disappearing penalty points made the news a few years after it happened
3) Wallace "discretion": Squad car pulls up beside Micko. Micko drops the phone and has a bit of banter. Squad car drives away. Now, shouldn't every law-abiding citizen not be asking why the Guards in question did not do their job and enforce the law? And furthermore, when they passed this information up through the chain (presumably recently) were they reprimanded for not doing their job? To my mind, if a normal person went to their boss and admitted not doing their job, they would get reprimanded.
4) Shatter's latest incident: Again we are hearing stuff like they have a record of this on file.

It begs the question as to whether the Guards compile information on people who get to make decisions in this country in case that information ever comes in handy further down the road in "negotiations". Conspiracy? Maybe so, but it's a bit of a coincidence that those most vocal in their criticism of the Guards recently seem to have been the ones outed. How many of the rest of them are keeping quiet because they remember the time that the Guard didn't give them the fine for speeding?

It is a bit disturbing, albeit not 100% unexpected. Of course we'd expect individuals to act in this way, but as a group, and through the official chain of command, I think I'd expect proper procedure to be followed and sanctions to be handed back down the chain of command to those responsible.

Opinions? Again, I'm not focusing on the politicians. I just used them for examples. I think it's an abuse of power in many ways. How do you think that should things be tightened up? I'm not against the exposing of crimes or wrong-doing, I'm against the hoarding of such information, potentially with the knowledge that it could become a valuable bargaining tool or weapon in the future.

TL:DR version : Actually, don't worry about it princess. If the paragraphs are too big, the ideas might hurt your poor little head anyway

Jamie2k9

I say get over it, its just guards have a gossip like most people do about other people's lives. I have just about had enough of this playground crap he was stopped here and you were stopped there.

yore

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I say get over it, its just guards have a gossip like most people do about other people's lives. I have just about had enough of this playground crap he was stopped here and you were stopped there.

Gossip is fair enough. But passing this stuff up the ranks through official channels is more than gossip.

dirtyden

Your post is pure conjecture so I am not at all disturbed.

yore

dirtyden wrote: »

Your post is pure conjecture so I am not at all disturbed.

What is conjecture? That it was reported that the Garda Commissioner told a minister that a Guard saw a politician using a mobile phone a few years ago but didn't do his job and give him a "ticket" for it?


Do you think that the Garda Commissioner would be telling a minister that a Guard saw "DirtyDen" using a mobile without a handsfree a few years back but didn't do anything about it apart from a bit of banter?

kneemos

It is weird,how would an individual guard remember what happened at a routine traffic stop years earlier unless it was noted down.

Sergeant

No. We live in a damn fine example of democracy. The vast majority of our police force do a great job.

Jamie2k9

kneemos wrote: »

It is weird,how would an individual guard remember what happened at a routine traffic stop years earlier unless it was noted down.

If I was a guard and I stopped a TD's its something I wouldn't forget.

yore

Sergeant wrote: »

No. We live in a damn fine example of democracy. The vast majority of our police force do a great job.

Sergent, (I hope your name does not imply partiality) I'm not focusing on individual guards. I'm not saying they are or aren't all corrupt. But does it not seem unnerving to you that they seems to be getting involved in politics through their top management.

Yes, I will say that the guard who saw Wallace should have fined him. But the important thing to my mind is that when he reported that to his superiors, it was able to go straight to the top to be used as a weapon. What would I have expected in an ideal world

Guard: "I saw Mick Wallace driving with his phone through a dangerous junction but I didn't bother me hole to enforce the law"
Superintendent: "Right so. Official warning. The next time this happens it's going on your record that you aren't doing your job"

foggy_lad

Why was shatter not dragged to the nearest station to piss in a pot or have a doctor take blood when he twice failed to give a breath sample?

Karl Stein

yore wrote: »

Now, shouldn't every law-abiding citizen not be asking why the Guards in question did not do their job and enforce the law?

Heard a story in the pub the other night (bastions of folk wisdom) about a Guard who was transferred out of a particular area for doing his job 'too thoroughly'.

Jimoslimos

Part of AGS remit is in intelligence gathering, which is itself a dirty job. OK if you can keep it in-house and use it properly, but the problems arise when the media and politicians have access to this information, both these groups are well-versed in using sensitive information for political or business gain.

wil

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why was shatter not dragged to the nearest station to piss in a pot or have a doctor take blood when he twice failed to give a breath sample?

I'd suspect they used common sense, considering it was just a routine checkpoint and there was no indication or suspicion that he had even been drinking.

Why do people seem to be getting their knickers in a twist over relatively minor indiscretions and minor discretions and the correct use of warnings.
Dont people realise politicians love these distractions away from much bigger issues.

From what I see there is much blatant and reckless disregard for handheld mobile phone use while driving laws, so Joe Public might be better served by frequent/regular noted warnings than token small number of prosecutions which invariably take up police and court time better served elsewhere. Making an example of some is no example if the risk of getting stopped is very low.
First strike should require proof of installation of bluetooth in car.

Cant believe the number of luxury car drivers that cant afford a relatively inexpensive bluetooth kit/stereo.

blatantrereg

"Law and order are always and everywhere the law and order which protect the established hierarchy"
Herbert Marcuse

This is true. The things you refer to are the tip of the iceberg. They don't disturb me because I expect them.

carzony

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why was shatter not dragged to the nearest station to piss in a pot or have a doctor take blood when he twice failed to give a breath sample?

I was thinking that myself earlier, I'd imagine he had a sly drinky that night before jumping in the car. anyway, surely been breathalysed isnt that difficult even if you do have asthma? You only blow into the maching for a few seconds.

WhatNowForUs?

carzony wrote: »

I was thinking that myself earlier, I'd imagine he had a sly drinky that night before jumping in the car. anyway, surely been breathalysed isnt that difficult even if you do have asthma? You only blow into the maching for a few seconds.

It can be very hard to do. He should have however gone down to the station to give a sample. Having said all that this is getting away fron the real issue of what files are being held by who and who has access to them.

carzony

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

It can be very hard to do. He should have however gone down to the station to give a sample. Having said all that this is getting away fron the real issue of what files are being held by who and who has access to them.

I never thought it'd be that difficult:eek: Looking at the news lately it's almost like everyone has access to 'confidential' files.

Saying that though, If I was in that position i'd probably wanna look up a few mates names and see if they'd gotten up to anything :p

TheDB

WTF was Garda Commissioner collecting information on TD's. This has not been hightlighted enough. He interfered in the political process, he crossed the line and should be sacked.

dirtyden

yore wrote: »

What is conjecture? That it was reported that the Garda Commissioner told a minister that a Guard saw a politician using a mobile phone a few years ago but didn't do his job and give him a "ticket" for it?


Do you think that the Garda Commissioner would be telling a minister that a Guard saw "DirtyDen" using a mobile without a handsfree a few years back but didn't do anything about it apart from a bit of banter?

That is one incident you are describing. But you seem to be alluding to some kind of instututional statsiesque level of organised spying.

The incident above I would put down more to the vagaries of human nature. Wallace and Ming were going after the Garda and I would imagime the indivdual gardai involved in those cases were annoyed at the hypocrisy so perhaps passed that info up.

Annasopra

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why was shatter not dragged to the nearest station to piss in a pot or have a doctor take blood when he twice failed to give a breath sample?

Because he told them he had left the dail and apparently it is unconstitutional to arrest a TD travelling to or from the Dail

davetherave

mango salsa wrote: »

Because he told them he had left the dail and apparently it is unconstitutional to arrest a TD travelling to or from the Dail

I thought it was only on the way to the Dail. So that that they couldn't be stopped from voting.

CruelCoin

wil wrote: »

Cant believe the number of luxury car drivers that cant afford a relatively inexpensive bluetooth kit/stereo.

If i'd paid a fortune on this lovely new car, why would i want to ruin it with a tacky bolt on accessory?

It's like buying prada and modifying it with tweed.

Cee-Jay-Cee

I think your over-thinking non stories. Most of them are word of mouth stories that the media get hold off. I do t think its in any way suspicious and I certainly don't believe there is any conspiracy.

If guards were to carry out their duties to the letter of the law and prosecute every single offence they detected or was reported to them then the complete policing system would collapse as there would be no guards available to do outdoor duties as they'd all be stuck in offices completing court and investigation files. Discretionary powers are needed to allow minor offences be dealt with by way of a warning/caution.

BattleCorp

wil wrote: »

I'd suspect they used common sense, considering it was just a routine checkpoint and there was no indication or suspicion that he had even been drinking.

If they went to the bother of breathalysing him, why didn't they follow up on it? Fair enough if he couldn't provide enough breath for the machine, but they should have then did a blood test or urine test.

I don't think it is a trivial matter that laws that should apply to everyone equally seem to be subjectively applied depending on who the individual is.

KyussBishop

There is an entire 'secret service' in Ireland I believe, that we have very little knowledge of, who likely do phone tapping and such without much in the way of due process.

Would anyone really be surprised at all to learn that illegal wiretappings and accessing of records, goes on all the time in Ireland? Every once in a while you hear of (yet another) laptop full of a companies customer records going missing, and nothing being done about it, and companies largely don't give a toss about DPC requirements (and enforcement of regulation is really poor), so it's not much of a step to consider that exactly the same crap goes on in government all of the time, as it seems to be a part of our corrupt/criminogenic political/business 'culture'.

If people can get away with it, without being caught (which is pretty easy where it comes to inadequately secured records, and even wholesale monitoring of telephone/internet data if you have the right 'friends'), and if there is money to be made (or political gain in) doing it, then (in this country in particular) there will be people who will do it.


It's not just that either, but it's so ingrained in this country that for a lot of people their snap-reaction when it's brought up is "stop making a big deal of it", "happens all the time, nothing you can do about it" and sometimes "mind your own business"; there aren't just people willing to engage in that crap, but completely unrelated people who are willing to act as apologists for it.

If we have had governments where there has been institutionalized tacit protection of child abusers in the church for well over half a century, and that this has only recently been investigated and pointed out, then that sets a pretty low standard for what other institutionalized corruption there may be.

JRant

BattleCorp wrote: »

If they went to the bother of breathalysing him, why didn't they follow up on it? Fair enough if he couldn't provide enough breath for the machine, but they should have then did a blood test or urine test.

I don't think it is a trivial matter that laws that should apply to everyone equally seem to be subjectively applied depending on who the individual is.

If reports are to be beleived and Shatter told the Garda that he was coming from the Dail then it would have been against the law to arrest him and bring him to the station.

mike65

That "Dail business" is a get out of jail free card is the disgrace here. Also Shatter would have been out on his ear in any functioning democracy and the senior Guard who supplied him with the information suspended pending an inquiry.

kraggy

CJC999 wrote: »

I think your over-thinking non stories. Most of them are word of mouth stories that the media get hold off. I do t think its in any way suspicious and I certainly don't believe there is any conspiracy.

If guards were to carry out their duties to the letter of the law and prosecute every single offence they detected or was reported to them then the complete policing system would collapse as there would be no guards available to do outdoor duties as they'd all be stuck in offices completing court and investigation files. Discretionary powers are needed to allow minor offences be dealt with by way of a warning/caution.

In the case of Shatter, if you or I failed to provide a breath sample, we'd be asked to go to the station for a blood or urine sample.

Also, as Vincent Brown asked the other night, how did the Garda Commissioner, someone who 99% of the Gards have no dealings with, find out about Mick Wallace having been stopped? It does seem strange.

yore

CJC999 wrote: »

I think your over-thinking non stories. Most of them are word of mouth stories that the media get hold off. I do t think its in any way suspicious and I certainly don't believe there is any conspiracy.

Commissioner telling his boss, the Minister for Defence, some old nugget of information about a political rival is more than word-of-mouth.

CJC999 wrote: »

If guards were to carry out their duties to the letter of the law and prosecute every single offence they detected or was reported to them then the complete policing system would collapse as there would be no guards available to do outdoor duties as they'd all be stuck in offices completing court and investigation files. Discretionary powers are needed to allow minor offences be dealt with by way of a warning/caution.

On the spot fine taking up court and investigation? More like the guards in question were too lazy. Perhaps they just weren't traffic corp and decided that's not their job. However they felt ok to report it to their superiors. And that information passed up through the chain as it served a purpose. No offence, but this paragraph sounds like it is spoken with someone who has the connections to get these "small" offences "waived" i.e. relation in the Guards who will take care of it for you!

How many politicians are there now that might otherwise voice a negative opinion about something related to the Guards but won't because they know that they were in the past simply stopped at a checkpoint? Or that some guard can make up a claim that they say him/her committing an offence but did nothing about it?

How can the Commissioner be ok with the fact that one of his men on the ground failed to do his job?
Is there a record of the "incident" kept? Most people know that in any workplace scenario, records but be kept and incidents documented for them to be used at any later stage. The Guards apparently didn't stop or formally identify Wallace. How did the Commissioner know that it was him and not someone like him? There must be something other than "Hey Commissioner, Guard Murphy said he saw Wallace on the phone a few years ago. No official record of this now but please feel free to use it as a political lever".

Busted Flat.

yore wrote: »

This thread is not about penalty points/individual corruption or incompetency. Nor is it about individual Guards such as the one in the papers for forging documents or the ex-guard who's patio was going to be excavated in the last week or so looking for a body that current Guards think is buried there. We all know about these stories. There are bad apples in every barrel.

There has been a lot in the media recently about their interactions with politicians and I find this disturbing. I am not talking about the politics here. I want to talk about it from the other angle.

1) Claire Daly incident: This one is most innocuous of the three but I'll mention it as some people shouted "conspiracy". Whatever the matter of transmission it still remains that it entered the public domain very quickly although it could easily have been via a bystander or third party. (Disclaimer, I can't stand this bint)
2) Ming's magical disappearing penalty points made the news a few years after it happened
3) Wallace "discretion": Squad car pulls up beside Micko. Micko drops the phone and has a bit of banter. Squad car drives away. Now, shouldn't every law-abiding citizen not be asking why the Guards in question did not do their job and enforce the law? And furthermore, when they passed this information up through the chain (presumably recently) were they reprimanded for not doing their job? To my mind, if a normal person went to their boss and admitted not doing their job, they would get reprimanded.
4) Shatter's latest incident: Again we are hearing stuff like they have a record of this on file.

It begs the question as to whether the Guards compile information on people who get to make decisions in this country in case that information ever comes in handy further down the road in "negotiations". Conspiracy? Maybe so, but it's a bit of a coincidence that those most vocal in their criticism of the Guards recently seem to have been the ones outed. How many of the rest of them are keeping quiet because they remember the time that the Guard didn't give them the fine for speeding?

It is a bit disturbing, albeit not 100% unexpected. Of course we'd expect individuals to act in this way, but as a group, and through the official chain of command, I think I'd expect proper procedure to be followed and sanctions to be handed back down the chain of command to those responsible.

Opinions? Again, I'm not focusing on the politicians. I just used them for examples. I think it's an abuse of power in many ways. How do you think that should things be tightened up? I'm not against the exposing of crimes or wrong-doing, I'm against the hoarding of such information, potentially with the knowledge that it could become a valuable bargaining tool or weapon in the future.

TL:DR version : Actually, don't worry about it princess. If the paragraphs are too big, the ideas might hurt your poor little head anyway

Nothing new, things were far worse in the seventies, the good thing about today's events, we have the internet to let people know what is going on, we no longer have to depend on lazy embedded journos. Not all mind you, there's still a small few who are courageous and carry out their responsibilities professionally.

bus_driver

CJC999 wrote: »

I think your over-thinking non stories. Most of them are word of mouth stories that the media get hold off. I do t think its in any way suspicious and I certainly don't believe there is any conspiracy.

If guards were to carry out their duties to the letter of the law and prosecute every single offence they detected or was reported to them then the complete policing system would collapse as there would be no guards available to do outdoor duties as they'd all be stuck in offices completing court and investigation files. Discretionary powers are needed to allow minor offences be dealt with by way of a warning/caution.

where do you think the media get these stories from ( in the main ) ?

paul Williams owes his entire career to loose tongued cops

wil

CruelCoin wrote: »

If i'd paid a fortune on this lovely new car, why would i want to ruin it with a tacky bolt on accessory?

It's like buying prada and modifying it with tweed.

The tacky bolt on accessory is usually the driver.

If I was buying a "lovely new car", I'd expect it to have at least the basic specs that "lovely new cars" come with these days.

And even if it was a lovely old car, think I'd pay the little extra for the non-tacky, but discrete version of the kit.
My retrofit on to my anything but "lovely new" is invisible and cheaper than a fine.

Of course if you are driving a vintage Ferrari, I'd consider this

Specialun

If a normal joe soap was in shatters position would the outcome have been the same.

bus_driver

Specialun wrote: »

If a normal joe soap was in shatters position would the outcome have been the same.

hardly , how willing AGS are to act depends on two things

who is complaining and who is being complained about

the guards are highly political in how they carry out their duties ,always have been

Specialun

Thats a problem in my opinion.A guard should not ge able to pick and choose who they enforce the law on.

bus_driver

Specialun wrote: »

Thats a problem in my opinion.A guard should not ge able to pick and choose who they enforce the law on.

they do and are told to by their superiors

anyone who has had a reasonable degree of interaction with AGS can tell you this

pull exists in every aspect of irish society , if you know someone or are someone , the guards treat you differently

Wacker The Attacker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAHR1tk5xvU

bus_driver

two of my uncles were guards btw

both now retired

Specialun

The shatter incident is gone from the news now anyways

Can you imagine if the incident had been on gerry adams and the current posse were under pressure from SF

I would bet the story wouldnt wittle away so fast

For Paws

The last week has been a 'slow news' week.

Nothing much has happened here. (The goings on throughout the rest of the world don't count).

Lazy journalists making up stuff about little enough.

Today's Irish Independent has 'embattled Justice Minister' .. 'left to sweat'...'as the opposition scent blood'.

Bollox. No truth, no facts, just the same rumour mongering.

Have the Opposition nothing better to do than mouth pious innuendo at their rivals on the Govt benches ?

Is anyone on this thread a serving Garda ?
Does anyone on this thread know any serving Gardai ?

Then ask them what they think about whether they exercise their power of discretion wisely.

The rest is just speculation, and serves only to further alienate those members of AGS who do a dirty, dangerous & thankless job the best way they can.

SB2013

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why was shatter not dragged to the nearest station to piss in a pot or have a doctor take blood when he twice failed to give a breath sample?

Immunity to arrest

Article 15

13. The members of each House of the Oireachtas shall, except in case of treason as defined in this Constitution, felony or breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest in going to and returning from, and while within the precincts of, either House, and shall not, in respect of any utterance in either House, be amenable to any court or any authority other than the House itself.

skimpydoo

bus_driver wrote: »

where do you think the media get these stories from ( in the main ) ?

paul Williams owes his entire career to loose tongued cops

How does the Herald and other papers and journalists get loose tongued gardai who they call sources to provide stories for them. We saw a lot of stories from sources about the killers of Garda O'Donoghue. Why keep leaking these stories as it will only cause the killers to flee which is what happened. If the gardai had kept quiet the killers would have been arrested by now.

As regards Shatter I remember him being very vocal in calling for Willie O'Dea to resign.

mb1725

I wonder if Mick Wallace knew that the Minister had the goods on him for this and maybe other matters. He did not seem one bit shocked or surprised when Shatter dropped the bombshell. You would have at least expected him to be highly indignant at the revelation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmem-yngKdY

bus_driver

For Paws wrote: »

The last week has been a 'slow news' week.

Nothing much has happened here. (The goings on throughout the rest of the world don't count).

Lazy journalists making up stuff about little enough.

Today's Irish Independent has 'embattled Justice Minister' .. 'left to sweat'...'as the opposition scent blood'.

Bollox. No truth, no facts, just the same rumour mongering.

Have the Opposition nothing better to do than mouth pious innuendo at their rivals on the Govt benches ?

Is anyone on this thread a serving Garda ?
Does anyone on this thread know any serving Gardai ?

Then ask them what they think about whether they exercise their power of discretion wisely.

The rest is just speculation, and serves only to further alienate those members of AGS who do a dirty, dangerous & thankless job the best way they can.

you,ve it all sussed out

bus_driver

skimpydoo wrote: »

How does the Herald and other papers and journalists get loose tongued gardai who they call sources to provide stories for them. We saw a lot of stories from sources about the killers of Garda O'Donoghue. Why keep leaking these stories as it will only cause the killers to flee which is what happened. If the gardai had kept quiet the killers would have been arrested by now.

As regards Shatter I remember him being very vocal in calling for Willie O'Dea to resign.

you hardly think the guards are going to name drop when it comes to the investigation into the murder of garda o Donoghue :rolleyes:

as for the media getting info from the cops , sometimes the guards sell the info , sometimes they leak stories in order to slime someone they don't like as in the case with deputy uppity daly who dared to expose their penalty point quashing , in other instances , they might drop that delightfully vague line about how the person was known to the gardai , that could mean someone who was once done for drink driving

the innocence of the members on this site never ceases to amaze me

yore

bus_driver wrote: »

the innocence of the members on this site never ceases to amaze me

Wow. Never eh? After one day's membership and about 30 posts?




I don't think anybody is wondering how the media get these stories. The questions are rhetorical

skimpydoo

bus_driver wrote: »

you hardly think the guards are going to name drop when it comes to the investigation into the murder of garda o Donoghue :rolleyes:

as for the media getting info from the cops , sometimes the guards sell the info , sometimes they leak stories in order to slime someone they don't like as in the case with deputy uppity daly who dared to expose their penalty point quashing , in other instances , they might drop that delightfully vague line about how the person was known to the gardai , that could mean someone who was once done for drink driving

the innocence of the members on this site never ceases to amaze me

My point was they leaked info that let the killers know that the gardai know who they are. I never suggested that they were going to name names.

CruelCoin

wil wrote: »

The tacky bolt on accessory is usually the driver.

If I was buying a "lovely new car", I'd expect it to have at least the basic specs that "lovely new cars" come with these days.

And even if it was a lovely old car, think I'd pay the little extra for the non-tacky, but discrete version of the kit.
My retrofit on to my anything but "lovely new" is invisible and cheaper than a fine.

Of course if you are driving a vintage Ferrari, I'd consider this

wow, just wow.

As bad as porchse pipes

smash

Government : "We need Garda cutbacks and stations to close"

Gardai : "So and so avoided points etc etc"

It stinks!