Further fare hikes (2014)

lil5

Passengers face further fare hikes in bid to save CIE firms - Independent.ie -
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/passengers-face-further-fare-hikes-in-bid-to-save-cie-firms-29274118.html

BUS and rail fares are set to rise in the wake of an agreement on cost-cutting plans for troubled Bus Eireann.

Passengers will be hit with higher fares after Bus Eireann, Iarnrod Eireann and Dublin Bus confirmed that further increases were "required" to help the companies stem losses.

An application must be made to the National Transport Authority (NTA) by July 1, the Irish Independent has learned.

While there has been no formal application as yet, it is understood that the companies will seek permission to increase some fares, with hikes likely to take effect in 2014.

...

Any fare hike will come as a further blow to passengers who have already been hit with a series of increases including two last year alone.

...

But any rescue of the troubled firms will also require an assets sale, reductions in capital spending and annual fare hikes over the coming years.

...

All the CIE transport companies – Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann – are involved in cost-cutting amid falling passenger numbers, cuts in subsidies and fuel cost hikes.

Dublin Bus has already proposed changes which are being considered by the Labour Court, while Iarnrod Eireann is seeking further savings.

...

LXFlyer

This is the NTA putting some structure into the fares revision process.

Basically the fares review process is an annual one - I think people need to realise that, but has been rather haphazard to date.

They are saying that any proposals must now be submitted to them by July 1 each year to allow them be considered properly.

The fares won't change until next year.

the groutch

Dublin Bus 1987-2014
R.I.P.

Polar101

Well, I don't remember the last time the fares didn't go up in a year, so I'm not sure if this is news.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

The fares won't change until next year.

But they'll still rise and rise well above the rate of inflation as they have done in recent years. There's only so much gouging of customers you can do without taking a serious look at your cost base and it's medium to long term sustainability.

LXFlyer

I'm not disagreeing with you re cost savings.

But this is story is purely the NTA putting some structure into the whole annual fares review process - the submissions need to be made by July 1 for a January implementation.

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

But they'll still rise and rise well above the rate of inflation as they have done in recent years. There's only so much gouging of customers you can do without taking a serious look at your cost base and it's medium to long term sustainability.

The better question to ask is not who is raising the fare but why they are being raised.

SteM

They would be smart to leave the Leap card fares as is during next year’s price rise. It might drive people to take up the Leap.

Personally, I'm at a tipping point wrt to DB fares. The savings I make on the bus will soon not be worth it for the comfort and convenience of being in a car. As someone who never drove until a year ago I never thought I'd hear myself say that.

Doctor Strange

SteM wrote: »

They would be smart to leave the Leap card fares as is during next year’s price rise. It might drive people to take up the Leap.

Personally, I'm at a tipping point wrt to DB fares. The savings I make on the bus will soon not be worth it for the comfort and convenience of being in a car. As someone who never drove until a year ago I never thought I'd hear myself say that.

They're ridiculous as it is. It's currently €2.80 from Palmerstown to Maynooth. Any higher, and it'll be cheaper for me just to get dropped at Ashtown station and get a train from there.

LXFlyer

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

They're ridiculous as it is. It's currently €2.80 from Palmerstown to Maynooth. Any higher, and it'll be cheaper for me just to get dropped at Ashtown station and get a train from there.

Well I would ask why are you paying €2.80 cash when you could make the same journey for €2.45 using LEAP?

You are overpaying by €0.35 per trip!

SteM

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I would ask why are you paying €2.80 cash when you could make the same journey for €2.45 using LEAP?

You are overpaying by €0.35 per trip!

Was talking to a bloke about this on the bus the other day. He basically said he went in to get one a few weeks ago and walked out when they tried to charge him 5 euro deposit. He was annoyed because he knew that he'd never claim the deposit back so he thought that was a waste of his money.

Don't have a leap card myself (won't get one until they transfer the T90s to it) but I was surprised to hear that they're charging a deposit - would think they'd be doing anything they can to aid roll out. Maybe a 5 euro deposit that's credited to your account after 3 months would be fairer?

Hootanany

Its crazy just to keep their inflated wages and pensions.
If they dropped their price they would make up the shortfall by volume.

BenShermin

SteM wrote: »

Was talking to a bloke about this on the bus the other day. He basically said he went in to get one a few weeks ago and walked out when they tried to charge him 5 euro deposit. He was annoyed because he knew that he'd never claim the deposit back so he thought that was a waste of his money.

:rolleyes: So, for example, paying €1.65 in cash instead of €1.40 on Leap every time he uses the bus is not a waste of his money?? I just don't know anymore...

Stevek101

SteM wrote: »

Was talking to a bloke about this on the bus the other day. He basically said he went in to get one a few weeks ago and walked out when they tried to charge him 5 euro deposit. He was annoyed because he knew that he'd never claim the deposit back so he thought that was a waste of his money.

Wow. Some people are impossible to understand...

cdebru

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

But they'll still rise and rise well above the rate of inflation as they have done in recent years. There's only so much gouging of customers you can do without taking a serious look at your cost base and it's medium to long term sustainability.

What actually needs to be looked at is the whole free travel scheme, 1.1 million adults in the country entitled to free travel. If we take it that 400,000 of them live in Dublin and Dublin Bus gets 25 million of the 60 million the government pays for the scheme that is about 63 euro per person and that is not including the rest of the holders of free travel passes who also have free travel when in Dublin.

An annual bus ticket is 1120 euro and Dublin Bus is being asked to carry these people for the year for about 60 euro. There is no company could survive having about 30 to 35% of your customers getting the service effectively free. ( and that is not counting the fraud that goes on with the social welfare passes)

The only option is to make the 65% of your customers who pay, pay more to cover the cost and that is what is happening.

It is not the sustainability of the cost base that needs to be looked at it is the sustainability of having 35% of your customers being subsidised to a massive extent by the rest.

People are correct if it is not sorted soon DB will be gone and so will any type of free travel for anyone, just like the bins now everyone pays.

cdebru

Hootanany wrote: »

Its crazy just to keep their inflated wages and pensions.
If they dropped their price they would make up the shortfall by volume.

Haha inflated wages and pensions?

An average driver in DB is about 40k a year, the inflated pension he gets after over 40 years service is about 130 euro a week current value.

Started getting paid properly for all the people DB is carrying and they could well cut the fares to the fare paying public. You are paying the fare for the at least 35% who travel for free.

SteM

BenShermin wrote: »

:rolleyes: So, for example, paying €1.65 in cash instead of €1.40 on Leap every time he uses the bus is not a waste of his money?? I just don't know anymore...

Yup, even worse he was paying the 2.80 fare from tallaght and could have been paying 2:45.

morgmorg

cdebru wrote: »

It is not the sustainability of the cost base that needs to be looked at it is the sustainability of having 35% of your customers being subsidised to a massive extent by the rest.

I'm amazed that this hasn't been looked at sooner. If a small flat fare was introduced to people that had a travel pass, it would prevent fares going up and ensure long term viability for Dublin Bus surely?

cdebru

morgmorg wrote: »

I'm amazed that this hasn't been looked at sooner. If a small flat fare was introduced to people that had a travel pass, it would prevent fares going up and ensure long term viability for Dublin Bus surely?

Because everyone is afraid to mention it.

Make It Happen 968

Fares should not increase when national wages are stagnant or declining. If esb, bord gais, vhi all increase as well as property tax, rents then people will just demand higher wages and the cycle continues.

cdebru

Make It Happen 968 wrote: »

Fares should not increase when national wages are stagnant or declining. If esb, bord gais, vhi all increase as well as property tax, rents then people will just demand higher wages and the cycle continues.

There is a solution it might even be possible to lower fares if it was done, but it is easier to just lump on another 10 or 20 cent to the joe soaps who pay for everything in this country.

hfallada

As much as I hate to say it Dublin Bus since the recession has improved. They were rationalised a lot of routes that over lapped and were pointless. Where I live 3 Buses came at the same time every 25 mins(that were pretty much the same route for 85% of the journey and were over 50 years old). Now I only have one bus route but it comes every 10 mins.

On the other hand Irish rail is a complete and utter joke. The tickets are over priced. A lot of it is loss making and I know how important a rail service is etc etc. But maybe some of the loss making routes so be bus only which is cheaper and only slightly longer.

OAPs and everyone else with free travel needs to pay. In most countries they get half price fare. With the country aging it needs to be stopped

Make It Happen 968

cdebru wrote: »

There is a solution it might even be possible to lower fares if it was done, but it is easier to just lump on another 10 or 20 cent to the joe soaps who pay for everything in this country.

I agree, the problem is groups are looking afteir own interests instead of the public interest. So the bus union look after their members at the expense of the public. Next it will be the nurses, then garda etc. Country is fecked we borrow 10-15 billion a year cos the government doesn't have the bollocks to actually change the country...fiana fail fiana gail same thing

Make It Happen 968

hfallada wrote: »

As much as I hate to say it Dublin Bus since the recession has improved. They were rationalised a lot of routes that over lapped and were pointless. Where I live 3 Buses came at the same time every 25 mins(that were pretty much the same route for 85% of the journey and were over 50 years old). Now I only have one bus route but it comes every 10 mins.

On the other hand Irish rail is a complete and utter joke. The tickets are over priced. A lot of it is loss making and I know how important a rail service is etc etc. But maybe some of the loss making routes so be bus only which is cheaper and only slightly longer.

OAPs and everyone else with free travel needs to pay. In most countries they get half price fare. With the country aging it needs to be stopped

You are right, CIE have hiked prices in the last 5 years to the point where its a joke compared to european countries. I suspect its to pay their staff over the market rates im wages. I dont have a problem with OAPs getting free travel, they paid their taxes over the years.

cdebru

Make It Happen 968 wrote: »

I agree, the problem is groups are looking afteir own interests instead of the public interest. So the bus union look after their members at the expense of the public. Next it will be the nurses, then garda etc. Country is fecked we borrow 10-15 billion a year cos the government doesn't have the bollocks to actually change the country...fiana fail fiana gail same thing

The bus unions are paid for by their members, that is their job to look after their members. But they don't do a very good job at it. They have allowed a situation were their members wages are being cut, but never even raised the issue of the 1.1 million people who are entitled to use the CIE service for free.

cdebru

Make It Happen 968 wrote: »

You are right, CIE have hiked prices in the last 5 years to the point where its a joke compared to european countries. I suspect its to pay their staff over the market rates im wages. I dont have a problem with OAPs getting free travel, they paid their taxes over the years.

I don't have a problem with them getting free travel either, but someone has to pay for it. Don't expect a third of the population to travel free and you think you can have low fares. CIE workers have have not had any increase in wages in the last 6 years, in fact their income has fallen.

Hilly Bill

Make It Happen 968 wrote: »

You are right, CIE have hiked prices in the last 5 years to the point where its a joke compared to european countries. I suspect its to pay their staff over the market rates im wages. I dont have a problem with OAPs getting free travel, they paid their taxes over the years.

What is the market rate???

wolfpawnat

What I find interesting is the amount of young people with free travel passes. I refuse to believe they all are deserving of them, the larger portion of them seem to be scumbags who never seemed to have worked a day! I am unemployed, but I have my leap card and paid full fare for me and I don't lie about my son's age I pay his fare too!

I got the train from Clare to Dublin last week, the amount of older people with their free travel passes was insane, there had to be at least 20-30 of them that got on the same carriage as me. The vast majority of them worked hard all their lives and I respect that, but I can see how IE are losing a fortune, even a flat rate of 5e would have easily made 200-300e from them on that train at Limerick Junction to Dublin.

BenShermin

hfallada wrote: »

As much as I hate to say it Dublin Bus since the recession has improved. They were rationalised a lot of routes that over lapped and were pointless. Where I live 3 Buses came at the same time every 25 mins(that were pretty much the same route for 85% of the journey and were over 50 years old). Now I only have one bus route but it comes every 10 mins.

Network direct done the exact opposite in my area. I used to have a bus every 10mins, now you could be waiting 30 to 40 mins at peak times for a bus only for three of them to show up at the same time, it's pretty much like that ALL day Monday to Friday. Any complaints to Dublin Bus get fobbed off. I suppose I shouldn't complain though, the pathetic service means I cycle more and more these days and my beer belly has gone down

n97 mini

I was cleaning out some stuff the other day and I found a train ticket from 2009. Leixlip-Connolly return for €3.20. Now it's €5.25, a 64% increase! :eek:

the groutch

I've still got T90 tickets that are recent enough to still be in date, priced €19. now they're €25.

Make It Happen 968

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What is the market rate???

BE are losing millions with current set up. They can try raise new revenue or cut costs. In a private company headcount would be reduced straight away to make it a viable business in the short term.

Hilly Bill

Make It Happen 968 wrote: »

BE are losing millions with current set up. They can try raise new revenue or cut costs. In a private company headcount would be reduced straight away to make it a viable business in the short term.

You didnt answer my question. What is the market rate?

Make It Happen 968

cdebru wrote: »

The bus unions are paid for by their members, that is their job to look after their members. But they don't do a very good job at it. They have allowed a situation were their members wages are being cut, but never even raised the issue of the 1.1 million people who are entitled to use the CIE service for free.

Where did you get 1.1m from please post a link. I dont use BE at all so why should tax payer money pay for a service we dont use. Privatise!

Make It Happen 968

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You didnt answer my question. What is the market rate?

Right now, the market rate is the annual loss, that's what the total wage bill needs to be reduced by. BE should break even.

Hilly Bill

Still didnt tell me what you think the market rate is.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You didnt answer my question. What is the market rate?

Its probably a rate that is sustainable for a business operating in a certain market. However a comparison between a semi state and a private business in any market, wouldn't be accurate. If, for example, BE were a private company, it would already be gone to the wall. Maybe the CIE wage structure is over inflated. Maybe its not. But there is no getting away from the fact that the group is leaking money like a burst pipe. However, it has the benefit of state protection, because when push comes to shove, it won't be let go out of business.

I suppose one could examine the "market rate" by directly comparing the take home pay of a BE driver and that of a private sector coach driver.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

Its probably a rate that is sustainable for a business operating in a certain market. However a comparison between a semi state and a private business in any market, wouldn't be accurate. If, for example, BE were a private company, it would already be gone to the wall. Maybe the CIE wage structure is over inflated. Maybe its not. But there is no getting away from the fact that the group is leaking money like a burst pipe. However, it has the benefit of state protection, because when push comes to shove, it won't be let go out of business.

Thats fair enough but id still like to hear what this market value that CIE are paying over . Im looking for a rate not a reason.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats fair enough but id still like to hear what this market value that CIE are paying over . Im looking for a rate not a reason.

See my edited post above.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

See my edited post above.

I did, but i still didnt get a figure.

Make It Happen 968

Grandeeod wrote: »

Its probably a rate that is sustainable for a business operating in a certain market. However a comparison between a semi state and a private business in any market, wouldn't be accurate. If, for example, BE were a private company, it would already be gone to the wall. Maybe the CIE wage structure is over inflated. Maybe its not. But there is no getting away from the fact that the group is leaking money like a burst pipe. However, it has the benefit of state protection, because when push comes to shove, it won't be let go out of business.

I suppose one could examine the "market rate" by directly comparing the take home pay of a BE driver and that of a private sector coach driver.

I think its unfair to look only at drivers pay. I think the biggest wage adjustment needs to come from management level. After all the driver's are the doers. Anyone can drive a bus, its not skilled labour, good pair of eyes, sober, polite - job done. You could say the market rate in the case of a driver is the wage a jobseeker would work on the buses for. I'd do it for 30k per annum, pay sweet f. all tax at thst level...happy out

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I did, but i still didnt get a figure.

Well go find out and you will get the answer. I don't think the OP has the answer. I could only speculate. Perhaps somebody else on the forum could tell us. I would be very interested to hear the answer. If a BE driver does earn more that a private sector coach driver, then BE have an obvious problem. If they don't then the problems lie entirely elsewhere.

Grandeeod

Make It Happen 968 wrote: »

I think its unfair to look only at drivers pay. I think the biggest wage adjustment needs to come from management level. After all the driver's are the doers. Anyone can drive a bus, its not skilled labour, good pair of eyes, sober, polite - job done. You could say the market rate in the case of a driver is the wage a jobseeker would work on the buses for. I'd do it for 30k per annum, pay sweet f. all tax at thst level...happy out

I tire of this argument that wage cuts must start at management level. While it helps, it doesn't actually provide any real financial benefit, because front line staff outnumber management. A business has to look at its entire wage bill. Cut management wages = symbolic/small savings (and should be done) Cut frontline staff wages and you immediately save a whole lot more.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

Well go find out and you will get the answer. I don't think the OP has the answer. I could only speculate. Perhaps somebody else on the forum could tell us. I would be very interested to hear the answer. If a BE driver does earn more that a private sector coach driver, then BE have an obvious problem. If they don't then the problems lie entirely elsewhere.

I already know what the wages are, i was asking a different poster who questioned that the wages might be above the market value as to what they thought the market value was in that case . If he thinks that they are being paid too much then how much is right and the market value in his eyes.

Make It Happen 968

Grandeeod wrote: »

I tire of this argument that wage cuts must start at management level. While it helps, it doesn't actually provide any real financial benefit, because front line staff outnumber management. A business has to look at its entire wage bill. Cut management wages = symbolic/small savings (and should be done) Cut frontline staff wages and you immediately save a whole lot more.

If we disect the payroll of BE im sure we would find overstaffed admin & mgmt positions that would bring financial benefits if downsized. Also cut the non profitable routes. Do a ryanair on bus services and bring them back to profit. I'm a fan of small government and capitalism.

Make It Happen 968

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I already know what the wages are, i was asking a different poster who questioned that the wages might be above the market value as to what they thought the market value was in that case . If he thinks that they are being paid too much then how much is right and the market value in his eyes.

If you know the wages, tell me and i will give you the market rate. Are you an insider in BE? Why do you think BE is losing money?

Hilly Bill

Make It Happen 968 wrote: »

If you know the wages, tell me and i will give you the market rate. Are you an insider in BE? Why do you think BE is losing money?

No,
You said that the fare hikes were to pay the over the market rate wages. What do you think is a fare wage?

Make It Happen 968

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No,
You said that the fare hikes were to pay the over the market rate wages. What do you think is a fare wage?

Exactly right BE cant keep raising fares to pay their bloated wage bill. They need to restrcuture their operations. Cut unprofitable routes. Downsize fleet. Reduce wagebill. All the normal actions a business would take in these circumstances. If this does not happen driver numbers will be cut. The government arent going to keep throwing money into a bottomless pit.

Hilly Bill

I guess that you wont be answering my question then.

cdebru

Make It Happen 968 wrote: »

If we disect the payroll of BE im sure we would find overstaffed admin & mgmt positions that would bring financial benefits if downsized. Also cut the non profitable routes. Do a ryanair on bus services and bring them back to profit. I'm a fan of small government and capitalism.

Well ask yourself would ryanair agree to carry 1.1 million people for free anytime they wanted as much as they wanted, if the government paid them a tiny fraction of the cost ?

Make It Happen 968

cdebru wrote: »

Well ask yourself would ryanair agree to carry 1.1 million people for free anytime they wanted as much as they wanted, if the government paid them a tiny fraction of the cost ?

Stupid question. Provide a link for this 1.1m free passengers per year that you keep spouting about. You should probably advocate for a system for CIE to reclaim each free fair from the government.