BJJ In Dublin

MadMardegan

What club, in your opinion, has the highest standard of Bjj in Dublin?

I'm talking about facilities, instructor technique level, awards etc

darced

This post has been deleted.

MadMardegan

darced wrote: »

Pedro Bessa

Can you give me any more information on him?

bjj-fighter

This is a shítstorm waiting to happen. Pedro Bessa's affiliated club is in Cork, not Dublin, and there are some great clubs in Dublin who all win a lot of medals with great competitors, and have excellent coaches and facilities.

MadMardegan

bjj-fighter wrote: »

This is a shítstorm waiting to happen. Pedro Bessa's affiliated club is in Cork, not Dublin, and there are some great clubs in Dublin who all win a lot of medals with great competitors, and have excellent coaches and facilities.

Not looking to start an argument or anything.
Was just curious if there is one club that stands out above the rest in terms of skill being thought etc

superb choice of username

MadMardegan wrote: »

Not looking to start an argument or anything.
Was just curious if there is one club that stands out above the rest in terms of skill being thought etc

I've come across some pretty high standards when it comes to BJs in Dublin. However, there isn't one particular place I'd recommend - best to go to different places, you might strike lucky one time!

bjj-fighter

MadMardegan wrote: »

Not looking to start an argument or anything.
Was just curious if there is one club that stands out above the rest in terms of skill being thought etc

Well I think if you look at medal successes, the most successful would be East Coast Jiujitsu, BJJ Revolution and SBG Ireland in no particular order. But there are some good smaller clubs too.

MadMardegan

I already train at a club, would rather not say name. I'm just looking to add some more bjj classes to my routine and looking to learn from some highly ranked/revered instructors.

Was thinking of team ryano in Baldoyle, any thoughts?

E: Didn't see Bjj Revolition in your post.

I'm gonna ring andy tomorrow maybe and see about going down to check it out

Stillweak

MadMardegan wrote: »

What club, in your opinion, has the highest standard of Bjj in Dublin?

I'm talking about facilities, instructor technique level, awards etc

The answers to your questions will all cancel each other out. No club is top of the list for everything.
The club with the highest concentration of "high level" players is not the one with the best coach.
The club with best coach does not have the best facilities.
The club who wins the most medals is not straight forward to judge. A club could bring 80 to a tournament and win 16 medals or a club could bring 30 and win 15.
Forget facilities. All you need is decent mats and a toilet.
For me an ideal club would be one with good instruction and a great atmosphere for training.
Revolution is one of the good ones. Try the clubs that you can realistically make regular training at.
Sounds like you are northside so can you actually make it to the southside clubs if people suggest them?

lawrencesummers

Training with two teams isn't a good idea.

Dave 101

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Training with two teams isn't a good idea.

ye cause you might get too good due to the extra training :rolleyes:

lawrencesummers

Nope, try again

Dave 101

Politics, Schmolitics, just train

lawrencesummers

Try respect and integrity

slammer187

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Try respect and integrity

I suppose having a more diverse range in training partners and improving is very disrespectful to your instructor who you're winning competitions for...

da-bres

Tyou are paying for a service, train with as many gyms as you want

reganreggie

da-bres wrote: »

Tyou are paying for a service, train with as many gyms as you want

Second this your a customer train where u like as much as you like

Niall Keane

Im sure your coach will love sharing with yoy his hard earned "bag of tricks" so you can pass them on to his rivals! (Business competitors)

At low level im sure noone cares, if you represent a gym competitively, it mightnt be ok, although relationships do exist between certain gyms.

Not talking BJJ here, just general MA. Though im sure its the same with lots of sports, cant imagine a GAA county coach being too thrilled if one of his players was sharing tactics with the oposition! Just saying!

slammer187

Niall Keane wrote: »

Im sure your coach will love sharing with yoy his hard earned "bag of tricks" so you can pass them on to his rivals! (Business competitors)

Then why does pretty much ever high level BJJ competitor have an online instructional website sharing their 'bag of tricks'?

Niall Keane

slammer187 wrote: »

Then why does pretty much ever high level BJJ competitor have an online instructional website sharing their 'bag of tricks'?

I have a youtube channel myself and share quite a bit of sanshou tricks, but martial art is more than monkey see monkey do, else there would be no need for hands on coaching.

I actually once saw a competitor adopt a Wudang "seven star guard", while fighting one of my lads. It didnt work out for him at all, where as my student knew exactly how to use it fluently.

Now if he was to go down to another gym and share out the trade secrets so everyone knew them thoroughly enough (through practicing with him) to be able to counter them efectively and adopt counter strategy and tactics, id think he was a fcukin idiot! No competitor gives away his edge!

But granted, you do have some innocent dumbasses who buy into some kind of transparancy culture where (martial) art is reduced to a comodity.

As a coach i have a duty to my serious students who represent the style, not to give away any edge they might have on opponents, so i dont whore out my knowledge and experience to people who treat it as such!

Im just being honest, and id be very surprised if (in private) any serious coach would disagree!

lawrencesummers

slammer187 wrote: »

Then why does pretty much ever high level BJJ competitor have an online instructional website sharing their 'bag of tricks'?

Because they all operate a free charity and have no interest in earning a living from their profession.

lawrencesummers

slammer187 wrote: »

I suppose having a more diverse range in training partners and improving is very disrespectful to your instructor who you're winning competitions for...

Its not easy to respect an instructor if you compete under another

slammer187

Niall Keane wrote: »

I have a youtube channel myself and share quite a bit of sanshou tricks, but martial art is more than monkey see monkey do, else there would be no need for hands on coaching.

I actually once saw a competitor adopt a Wudang "seven star guard", while fighting one of my lads. It didnt work out for him at all, where as my student knew exactly how to use it fluently.

Now if he was to go down to another gym and share out the trade secrets so everyone knew them thoroughly enough (through practicing with him) to be able to counter them efectively and adopt counter strategy and tactics, id think he was a fcukin idiot! No competitor gives away his edge!

But granted, you do have some innocent dumbasses who buy into some kind of transparancy culture where (martial) art is reduced to a comodity.

As a coach i have a duty to my serious students who represent the style, not to give away any edge they might have on opponents, so i dont whore out my knowledge and experience to people who treat it as such!

Im just being honest, and id be very surprised if (in private) any serious coach would disagree!

If you're good enough at what you do you should be able to do it to anyone regardless of whether they know you can do it or not and know counters to their counters of your game, that's what progression in a sport is called

Kirby92

slammer187 wrote: »

If you're good enough at what you do you should be able to do it to anyone regardless of whether they know you can do it or not and know counters to their counters of your game, that's what progression in a sport is called

I agree with this. Look at Roger Gracie. Gets mount and collar chokes in nearly every single match. People know it's coming, but still can't stop it.

Same with Ronda and her armbars, Marcelo with his guillotines etc etc...

Niall Keane

slammer187 wrote: »

If you're good enough at what you do you should be able to do it to anyone regardless of whether they know you can do it or not and know counters to their counters of your game, that's what progression in a sport is called

Guess it depends on if you want to "progress the sport" generally for the benefit of all, or win the game! Can you simply enjoy the art or does food have to be put on the table?

A coach can be measured on his results, his livelyhood can be on the line, success comes down to what he can offer the next guy cant, if he trains someone up, and so shares all he has learned, and that person then shares it all to possible competitors, well hard not to view that as a massive betrayal!

Also "one hundred blades-none of them sharp", if you feel nothing more can be learned from your coach thats one thing and sure move on, but id suggest mastering one approach first.

Again speaking from experience, i tend to be all Sun Tzu about tactics and train fighters "not to strive for contentious terrain", and so circle and evade. Had a good fighter a few years back who really got it, then started looking for more training hours than i could offer, ended up with a world-class MT coach who has produced serious fighters. BUT that guys approach was opposite to mine, it works! but is all about trading and holding ground. End result....
Next comp OTHER coaches asked me "hey!, what the hell happened to X, he's not himself at all", the lad lost to very average fighters, and couldnt use either approach well anymore.

Kieran81

Niall Keane wrote: »

, his livelyhood can be on the line, success comes down to what he can offer the next guy cant, if he trains someone up, and so shares all he has learned, and that person then shares it all to possible competitors, well hard not to view that as a massive betrayal!



Ag.

thats ridiculous , a coach should be picked because he has a proven track record in competition , if he or his students are consistantly winning then by default there opponents are going to get to see there game , so to say that keeping techniques secretive is important is showing that you think the only reason you can win is because the other guys dont know what you're doing , if you keep winning when people know what your doing , this is the clearest validation of the instruction that anyone could give

Niall Keane

Kieran81 wrote: »

thats ridiculous , a coach should be picked because he has a proven track record in competition , if he or his students are consistantly winning then by default there opponents are going to get to see there game , so to say that keeping techniques secretive is important is showing that you think the only reason you can win is because the other guys dont know what you're doing , if you keep winning when people know what your doing , this is the clearest validation of the instruction that anyone could give

Maybe for some, everything is the same, with no subtlity of approach? Maybe coaches are just gym managers?? Or drill sargents?

Then again a martial art classic from 1750 does state...

"Other schools of martial arts are so numerous
Although there are external differences,
Without exception, they amount to nothing more than the strong bullying the weak;
The slow surrendering to the fast;
The powerful beating those without power;
Slow hands surrendering to fast hands.
This is entirely due to innate natural ability
It is not related to having learned the skillful use of strength at all...."

If thats your approach then the amount of hours and varying experience will be your only teacher and an experienced coach is useless to you. Better off signing up for cheaper open mat time alone then.

Kieran81

Niall Keane wrote: »

Maybe for some, everything is the same, with no subtlity of approach? Maybe coaches are just gym managers?? Or drill sargents?

Then again a martial art classic from 1750 does state...

"Other schools of martial arts are so numerous
Although there are external differences,
Without exception, they amount to nothing more than the strong bullying the weak;
The slow surrendering to the fast;
The powerful beating those without power;
Slow hands surrendering to fast hands.
This is entirely due to innate natural ability
It is not related to having learned the skillful use of strength at all...."

If thats your approach then the amount of hours and varying experience will be your only teacher and an experienced coach is useless to you. Better off signing up for cheaper open mat time alone then.

"if thats my approach" , there is no part of what you replied is my approach?

you say earlier if you invest your time teaching someone and they go and share this with others this is a betrayal . this implies you think that now you believe that whatever it was the student was shown is now weakened because now its "out there" and opponents are ready for you. my opinion is this shows a lack of real belief in what you are training . a coach who really believes in what he is teaching doesnt worry about his oppponent knows about his game , he will believe in his technique that is proven , an example would be rafa mendes , he's going for his 4th bjj world title in a few weeks , all his opponents know whats coming , he has countless instructional videos of his technique yet nobody can stop him , he has total belief in his game . thats the attitude a top coach should have

Niall Keane

Ok make this really broad, when the Gracies started in UFC they mopped the floor as noone had a ground game, fast forward a few years and well...

da-bres

stay on topic keano

Niall Keane

Kieran81 wrote: »

"if thats my approach" , there is no part of what you replied is my approach?

you say earlier if you invest your time teaching someone and they go and share this with others this is a betrayal . this implies you think that now you believe that whatever it was the student was shown is now weakened because now its "out there" and opponents are ready for you. my opinion is this shows a lack of real belief in what you are training . a coach who really believes in what he is teaching doesnt worry about his oppponent knows about his game , he will believe in his technique that is proven , an example would be rafa mendes , he's going for his 4th bjj world title in a few weeks , all his opponents know whats coming , he has countless instructional videos of his technique yet nobody can stop him , he has total belief in his game . thats the attitude a top coach should have

Not just about technique but also obviously "training methods", you know the building blocks used to deliver the results.

Wanting to protect access to your methods is common across many sports, it shows "belief" in whats working for you hardly as you suggest a lack of belief? It has value! If you didnt believe in your methods you wouldn't value them, or care who knew them.

Everyone wants an edge, and needs to believe in it, look at the ridiculous aerodynamic running gear, hyrdodynamic swim gear etc. does it really help? But would an athlete like to enter without such? (Lose the perceived edge?) the psychological edge alone in believing you are better and have something better is essential for a competitor to win real competitions.

Some coaches exceed at producing champions, could be an approach/ tactics, could be training regimes that work real well, could be simply the inspiration he lends to his students, probably in most cases all 3 and more factors.

Training with the opposition and inevitably sharing out the coaches methods is betrayal! Plus who do you fight for? Cause the other coach will feel fcuked over if you have spent loads pf time being trained by him only to represent his rival.

If people cant see that, fair enough, but id suggest at least have some manners and ask your team mates first, and your coach. Dont expect just cause you have paid you get! Coaches are human beings, not pay per view youtube tutorials, noone helps out a person who treats them like cheap whores!

Doug Cartel

Nial, the closed door disciple thing is kind of particular to kung-fu and doesn't always apply to other styles.

I know from experience that I can walk into another club unannounced, train away and end up getting pulled to the side to get a detailed break-down of my main throw complete with extra insights that my main coach didn't cover. No one gives a rats arse about giving away their trade secrets.

Now I'm not exactly a big competitor, so maybe they don't mind coaching me because they don't see me as being a threat? Well what if I told you that even Olympic level guys regularly train together? If you want to be a high level practitioner, you have to practice with high level guys. At Olympic level the talent pool is fairly small, so they pool people together or training camps. Yeah it means that they end up learning each other's games, but the same guys end up facing each other at competitions so often, that they would know what to expect anyway.

Niall Keane

Nothing really to do with CMA and master-disiple relationships.

It would not be done in sanshou - training out of two gyms and representing one of them. havent heard of it in MT either though i stand to be corrected. Do the main MMA teams in UFC train "regularly" out of opponents gyms?

Im sure its normal to cross train with opponents in open mats, national team training etc. but to train regularly with a competing gym?

How does that work, say you are a hungry fighter and national representation is on the line, going to spar nice and friendly with your opponent all year then shake hands and say "nice one" if you lose? Or train like a demon with your own team, keeping all the variables of condition and injury to yourself so you can go out and smash your opponent relentlessly! Maybe its a striking thing, cause when you go out to knock someone the fcuk out you're not their pal!

If a person doesnt "represent" a gym by actively competing fair enough, they will probably be treated as handy sparring partners, maybe even more useful as they would know of any injuries etc the opposition might have if they train with them.

If you are on the way up, and aim at competing and representing a gym, well....

You can be high level by competing against high level and training with a team of people who do likewise. again maybe its a striking thing? But when you're mentally conditioned to go out and seriuosly hurt or ko the opposition, there may be sport rules but its not a game!

Kieran81

Niall Keane wrote: »

Ok make this really broad, when the Gracies started in UFC they mopped the floor as noone had a ground game, fast forward a few years and well...

fighters (gracies included) found out that they needed to open their minds to all kinds of fighting styles and did this by seeking out different coaches of various aspects of fighting

Niall Keane

Kieran81 wrote: »

fighters (gracies included) found out that they needed to open their minds to all kinds of fighting styles and did this by seeking out different coaches of various aspects of fighting

Yea teams had a few different coaches, dont recall say Cro-Cop training over with Hoost's coaches every chance he got?

In boxing we know Ali used to gate-crash his opponents camps to get into their heads etc... Just dont ever recall hearing of top boxers training with their oppositions coaches either? Kinda conflict of interest.

Anyway, just my opinions, doubt they are unique, good luck explaining to one of the coaches that youre not going to represent him but will represent a rival team, sure he will enjoy hearing that, sure he who pays the piper calls the tunes eh?

alphamule

SBG, Obviously!

Chris89

Some bjj schools in dublin wont let you train with other clubs from what i have heard, so funnily enough ould Niall isnt too far off the mark there.

Edit: just on that point, if you train somewhere and your coach/instructor or whatever forbids you from training elsewhere, alarm bells should be ringing i reckon. Why cant you train somewhere else? If your gym is as good as you're led to believe then there should be nothing to worry about, sure you're only going to find out the other place hasn't a patch on where you already were, right?

The reason Marcelo garcia can release his entire curriculum online, is because it doesnt matter how many people see it, or how much they practice, its pretty much too late for them to ever catch up with him. He is now in the business of teaching jiu jitsu and sharing it with the world, and thats what he is doing. (the few euro in the pocket probably helps too)

Where i train, we are always inviting people to train with us, and we often make trips to other gyms around the country to train... and we havent had any trouble just yet! Quite the opposite in fact.

Vim Fuego

Seems to be a decent relationship between a few gyms in Dublin. For instance, I saw a chap at training the other week with SBG & ECJJA patches on his gi. Doesn't Daragh O'Connail of ECJJA teach class/train in SBG occasionally too? Isn't there a link between Spartan, Primal, SBG and a few other gyms around the place?

I think as circumstances change in my life (location, job, timetables, children etc.), I'll have no choice but to change gyms depending on what suits me. That's just life - though I am a latecomer to the game and have plenty of responsibilities outside of training so my perspective might be a little different. It may be different for a 16 year old who has essentially pledged his life to the sport/journey/coach.

Similarly, if you're willing to pay the fees in two gyms, I don't see the problem. I agree with Chris' alarm bells comment above.

Undeadfred

alphamule wrote: »

SBG, Obviously!

Nah man, East Coast.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Mellor

Niall Keane wrote: »

Do the main MMA teams in UFC train "regularly" out of opponents gyms?

Im sure its normal to cross train with opponents in open mats, national team training etc. but to train regularly with a competing gym?

UFC/MMA Fighters often train with other teams/coaches. It’s pretty common. Obviously they don’t train their upcoming opponent (or the guy they are aiming to fight etc). But other than that.
You appear to be considering that all other teams are rivals, but guys in top flight MMA are only realistically concerned with a few guys in their division that they may need to fight, the team doesn’t matter.
Obviously it sometimes happens that a fighter needs to fight a guy he previously trained with. Not ideal, but the time spent training together is minute in terms of their overall training.
As an example, take GSP. Fights under Zahabi at Tristar in Canada. But often trains with Jacksons. Gameplan/Strategy is done by Greg Jackson. He visits Freddie Roach for boxing, and Phil Nurse in NewYork for Muay Thai. His BJJ is under John Danagher and Renzo Gracie.

At a lower level, If I took a newly opened gym up on their invite to call in to train. My coach wouldn’t have a problem with it. Nor would the new gym expect anything other than casual training.
There’s a guy who trains wrestling with us once a week, but trains BJJ the rest of the week with his team. He registers under his BJJ team at comp. I think it’s all good as long as everybody is aware of the situation.

DavidPhelan

When I go on these forums from time to time, the ignorant, uneducated attitudes of some continue to shock me!!

Lawrence, you're comment on not training in two gyms is bad enough but to then say the reasoning was respect and integrity.....icing on the cake really!!!
Best jiu jitsu guys in this country have all trained or regularly train in other clubs. I train out of East Coast but if I had the time, I'd love to train more in SBG, with Chris in Gracie Barra etc. More training partners, more competition. Do you think that my team or coach would give a ****?! Definitely not, would actually push me to do it! All that respect and integrity stuff is bull****. That's a very insecure view of how club owners should view students who train in or move to other clubs.

Getting back to the original topic;

Most of the clubs mentioned will have no problem with you trying out a class, certainly in East Coast, you get a 30 days free trial.

You mentioned Team Ryano and BJJ Revolution is a big team with a lot of experienced grapplers.......I hear they also provide free teabags! :P

Clive

There's a big difference between dropping in to another club for the odd training session even on a regular basis and being a normal student at two places.

If you're not a competitor, or at a level where you're a significant asset to the second club
many instructors will be happy to facilitate it. If however you're from Laois jiu jitsu club and join Liffey jiu jitsu club because you're up in Dublin during the week don't be surprised if Liffey JJ's instructor doesn't take too kindly to you still "reppin your brahs" at Laois JJ in competitions a year down the road. It's easily sorted by a quick chat but thinking "I pay fees so I'll do what I like" will lead to you being treated as just that, a customer.

I'm not one for any hardline team loyalty nonsense, but if you're training somewhere without giving credit to your instructors and training partners don't be shocked if they don't go the extra mile for you.

TLDR version: be upfront with clubs mentioned and you find any and all of them great places to train.

DavidPhelan

Clive wrote: »

There's a big difference between dropping in to another club for the odd training session even on a regular basis and being a normal student at two places.

If you're not a competitor, or at a level where you're a significant asset to the second club
many instructors will be happy to facilitate it. If however you're from Laois jiu jitsu club and join Liffey jiu jitsu club because you're up in Dublin during the week don't be surprised if Liffey JJ's instructor doesn't take too kindly to you still "reppin your brahs" at Laois JJ in competitions a year down the road. It's easily sorted by a quick chat but thinking "I pay fees so I'll do what I like" will lead to you being treated as just that, a customer.

I'm not one for any hardline team loyalty nonsense, but if you're training somewhere without giving credit to your instructors and training partners don't be shocked if they don't go the extra mile for you.

TLDR version: be upfront with clubs mentioned and you find any and all of them great places to train.

Clive, I agree with you. The OP had only mentioned that he's looking for another club to get some regular classes, difficult to know what the situation is exactly. As long as the student makes it clear that they rep one club or the other primarily in competitions, there shouldn't be a problem, as you've said.

slammer187

Clive wrote: »

If however you're from Laois jiu jitsu club and join Liffey jiu jitsu club because you're up in Dublin during the week don't be surprised if Liffey JJ's instructor doesn't take too kindly to you still "reppin your brahs" at Laois JJ in competitions a year down the road. It's easily sorted by a quick chat but thinking "I pay fees so I'll do what I like" will lead to you being treated as just that, a customer.

If a year down the line you're still competing under one club's banner as opposed to the other, it's the club that you're not representing's fault for not being able to provide and attractive enough team for you to join...it's nothing to be resentful about, in fact it's something to be grateful about that even though someone isn't representing your club they're providing another body on the mats to challenge your students/training partners and help them improve!