Fee to be charged for non-use of a vehicle

PanhardPL

High time now for motorists to be contacting their local T.D's before this Bill is passed.

15th May 2013
Non-Use of Motor Vehicles Bill 2013: Financial Resolution
Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan):   I move:
That provision be made in the Act giving effect to this Resolution:
- to close an evasion loophole whereby vehicles are declared off the road retrospectively, which is unverifiable, by providing for a system whereby vehicles must be declared off the road in advance for motor tax purposes,

- for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to be made a licensing authority and to provide that he or she continues to pay receipts from motor tax to the Local Government Fund,

- for the calculation of arrears of vehicle excise duty at 1/10th of the annual rate of duty per month of arrears, at the rate of duty applicable at the time of the making of an application for a vehicle licence, and

- for the charging, through secondary legislation, of an administration fee for the making of a declaration of non-use of a vehicle.
Question put and agreed to.

bugsntinas

they'll tax everything these days.did ya see on the tv that Dublin want to tax owners of vacant land too!!
what else will they tax/charge for!

voz es

So i have a car it is 98, i want to keep this car, tax is €1809, i want to store this car for the future, so now i need to pay €180 per year and renew this every year?
So basically if your a car enthusiast you are left with no option but to sell your car for export if you don't want to sell it as scrap. is this the case am I reading this right?

Boskowski

Where do you read that? I don't get that from the OP anyway.

The loophole had to be closed, people takin' the piss. The other day I saw a 12 Passat bluemotion thingy 9 months out of tax! The guy must have taxed the thing for 3 or 6 moths at purchase and then called it a day. And surely that Passat would be at the lowest end of the tax bands too.

TherapyBoy

Boskowski wrote: »

Where do you read that? I don't get that from the OP anyway.

The loophole had to be closed, people takin' the piss. The other day I saw a 12 Passat bluemotion thingy 9 months out of tax! The guy must have taxed the thing for 3 or 6 moths at purchase and then called it a day. And surely that Passat would be at the lowest end of the tax bands too.

I've no problem with them closing the loophole, make it so the car has to be declared as 'off the road' before rather than afterwards. But charging admin fees for the car being off the road is wrong.

Grimreaper666

TherapyBoy wrote: »

I've no problem with them closing the loophole, make it so the car has to be declared as 'off the road' before rather than afterwards. But charging admin fees for the car being off the road is wrong.

That's the big problem with this country, so many taxes to pay and nobody wants to make a stand. There's not a day goes by now that there's not another new tax landed on us directly or indirectly. I'm just waiting for a rain tax, any day now I suppose!!:(

corktina

i think it's already been established that the legislation allows for an admin fee at some later date , but there is no intention to charge one at this time.

listermint

corktina wrote: »

i think it's already been established that the legislation allows for an admin fee at some later date , but there is no intention to charge one at this time.

The fact that its not clearly outlined is a farce, the fact that its in there is equally a farce. This place is a dictatorship run by out of touch morons who NEVER in their life have to worry about such trivial matters as saving up for car tax. As clearly demonstrated their are some in power who dont even bother paying it even when driving on the roads.

Morons the lot of them.

Anan1

listermint wrote: »

The fact that its not clearly outlined is a farce, the fact that its in there is equally a farce. This place is a dictatorship run by out of touch morons who NEVER in their life have to worry about such trivial matters as saving up for car tax. As clearly demonstrated their are some in power who dont even bother paying it even when driving on the roads.

Morons the lot of them.

This is a bit OT, but we live in a democracy and in a democracy you get what you vote for. It's fashionable to bash politicians, but responsibility lies with the electorate.

Re the current topic, has anyone any reason to believe that this charge, when it does come, will be especially onerous? Or that there won't be some sort of an allowance for classics, such as we already have with motor tax?

Schnitzel Muncher

Grimreaper666 wrote: »

That's the big problem with this country, so many taxes to pay and nobody wants to make a stand. There's not a day goes by now that there's not another new tax landed on us directly or indirectly. I'm just waiting for a rain tax, any day now I suppose!!:(

Is there a website that lists all these hundreds of taxes? I'm surprised I'm not hearing about them, so it would be good to be able to keep up.

listermint

Anan1 wrote: »

This is a bit OT, but we live in a democracy and in a democracy you get what you vote for. It's fashionable to bash politicians, but responsibility lies with the electorate.

Re the current topic, has anyone any reason to believe that this charge, when it does come, will be especially onerous? Or that there won't be some sort of an allowance for classics, such as we already have with motor tax?

Im sorry Anan, its not OT. Yes ive voted for these people and Yes not one of them have delivered anything to me that they outlined when they graced my doorstep. So dont come to me with your apologist viewpoints.

If someone tells me blatant lies to my face and then does a complete uturn on their promises i retain every right to call them a Moron. Its not fashionable to 'bash politicians' and no the responsibility DOES NOT lie with the electorate.

I never gave these lads the mandate to introduce such a bill, and the fact that they havent bothered to see how it is properly implemented across the water speaks volumes that these edgits are only seeing Euro signs in their eyes.


I am all for the merits of the bill. But its implementation with brand new charges and taxes is sickening and im tired of it. So dont dare call me fashionable or flavour of the month i put my stall out when there was rumblings of this last year.

corktina

it's a fact of life that increased and new taxation is inevitable given the financial state of the Country. It's the responsibility of the Government to implement these as fairly across the board as they can. Noone likes it, but it has to be done

If there is a cost involved in monitoring an off-the-road vehicle then it's owner should shoulder that cost.

Anan1

listermint wrote: »

Im sorry Anan, its not OT. Yes ive voted for these people and Yes not one of them have delivered anything to me that they outlined when they graced my doorstep. So dont come to me with your apologist viewpoints.

I'm not apologising for anyone, I'm laying the blame on the electorate. Like I said, you get what you vote for.

listermint wrote: »

If someone tells me blatant lies to my face and then does a complete uturn on their promises i retain every right to call them a Moron. Its not fashionable to 'bash politicians' and no the responsibility DOES NOT lie with the electorate.

Oh, come on - none of these people came out of nowhere, and it's quite easy to look over a TD's past record before voting for them. Fool me once, shame on you..

listermint wrote: »

I never gave these lads the mandate to introduce such a bill, and the fact that they havent bother to see how it is properly implemented across the water speaks volumes that these edgits are only seeing Euro signs in their eyes.


I am all for the merits of the bill. But its implementation with brand new charges and taxes is sickening and im tired of it. So dont dare call me fashionable or flavour of the month i put my stall out when there was rumblings of this last year.

What new charges, exactly? Unless i've missed something, all i'm seeing is that they might charge to register a car off the road? Is there an actual figure to get worked up over?

the_syco

About f**king time! Looking at the UK police shows, and the police say "this car is marked as off the road (for tax)" and pull them over. Here, no such luck. You could drive the car around, and then go down to the local Gardaí station to claim it was off the road for the past 6 months!

hi5

Some of you are missing the point, I'm all for closing the loophole too, but what about collectors or restorers?
I have 6 cars all off the road until they are restored, if its €20 admin charge then I'll have to pay €120 per year every year to enjoy my hobby.

The problem is the classic scene is not taken into consideration when making this decision.

Until the classic vehicle scene have a representative to lobby on their behalf then we can expect all sorts of **** to be thrown at us. If you don't shout you'll get nothing.
Maybe the IVVCC are working away behind the scenes but I don't see anything in their newsletters?

listermint

the_syco wrote: »

About f**king time! Looking at the UK police shows, and the police say "this car is marked as off the road (for tax)" and pull them over. Here, no such luck. You could drive the car around, and then go down to the local Gardaí station to claim it was off the road for the past 6 months!

In the UK their is no charge for declaration and it is an online easy application.

Fully agree on catching people who dont pay. Zero Qualms there.

listermint

Anan1 wrote: »

I'm not apologising for anyone, I'm laying the blame on the electorate. Like I said, you get what you vote for.

Oh, come on - none of these people came out of nowhere, and it's quite easy to look over a TD's past record before voting for them. Fool me once, shame on you..

What new charges, exactly? Unless i've missed something, all i'm seeing is that they might charge to register a car off the road? Is there an actual figure to get worked up over?

You were apologising for the politicians. You clearly stated it was fashionable to give out about them. Thats apologising for anything they introduce and you know it is.

So we shouldnt complain because we voted them some years ago ? get real man.

I take them at face and my local is a labour party politician former student activist and meant to be man of the people so dont lecture me on my decisions.


And yes there is a new charge and you just stated there was a charge. cost unknown as of yet. But as you very well know anan if its in this country were going to be screwed. As you say 'look at previous form'......

Anan1

listermint wrote: »

In the UK their is no charge for declaration and it is an online easy application.

Fully agree on catching people who dont pay. Zero Qualms there.

Honestly, I think you're too attached to this 'no charge' thing. While I don't want them to take the piss, i'm fine with a nominal admin charge. Re your other two points, I agree.

listermint

corktina wrote: »

it's a fact of life that increased and new taxation is inevitable given the financial state of the Country. It's the responsibility of the Government to implement these as fairly across the board as they can. Noone likes it, but it has to be done

If there is a cost involved in monitoring an off-the-road vehicle then it's owner should shoulder that cost.

Its the responsibility of the government to implement the efficiencies that they promised. As of yet we have had no clear public explanation on all these efficiencies going on behind closed doors.

Yes it should be fair, where is the fairness in hitting motorists again ? ? well?

I fully agree the loop hole on off the road needs to be closed its a farce. but charging for a simple online form is ridiculous. Why cant we emulate the UK ?

Anan1

listermint wrote: »

You were apologising for the politicians. You clearly stated it was fashionable to give out about them. Thats apologising for anything they introduce and you know it is.

??? Eh no, it isn't.

listermint wrote: »

So we shouldnt complain because we voted them some years ago ? get real man.

Where did I say that? Complain all you like, but don't forget why they're in power.

listermint wrote: »

I take them at face and my local is a labour party politician former student activist and meant to be man of the people so dont lecture me on my decisions.

You take politicians at face value? There's your problem right there.

listermint wrote: »

And yes there is a new charge and you just stated there was a charge. cost unknown as of yet. But as you very well know anan if its in this country were going to be screwed. As you say 'look at previous form'......

And if it is punitive then i'll be right there with you. But right now all i'm feeling is hot air.

listermint

Anan1 wrote: »

Honestly, I think you're too attached to this 'no charge' thing. While I don't want them to take the piss, i'm fine with a nominal admin charge. Re your other two points, I agree.

Honestly... with all respect. If more people got actually attached to things in this silly island then we'd have less corruption more accountability and no we wouldnt let these 'so called' little things slide.


Far to accepting here, and i make no apologies for getting worked up over little things because they impact the bigger things.


Democracy i think is what you called it ? So why deride someone who is seeking for direct action ? or is it just another way to have a pop at my views?

listermint

Anan1 wrote: »

And if it is punitive then i'll be right there with you. But right now all i'm feeling is hot air.

Then why not remove it from the bill ?


Why should we hang around until some out of touch imbecile alla Mr sherlock (case in point) decides ah sure we have that in the bill lets lock down an 80 Euro charge for it. Sure its there to be used....

Anan1

listermint wrote: »

Honestly... with all respect. If more people got actually attached to things in this silly island then we'd have less corruption more accountability and no we wouldnt let these 'so called' little things slide.


Far to accepting here, and i make no apologies for getting worked up over little things because they impact the bigger things.

In principle I agree, but I don't think that applies in this case. Unlike you, i'm not opposed in principle to a charge.

listermint wrote: »

Democracy i think is what you called it ? So why deride someone who is seeking for direct action ?

I disagree with you on this issue. And I think that blaming politicians will never change anything. The electorate needs to have a long hard look in the mirror - we need to ask ourselves what kind of a country we really want to build for our children, rather than just voting for whoever dangles the biggest carrot.

listermint wrote: »

or is it just another way to have a pop at my views?

Don't be such a big girl - it's nothing personal.:)

sogood

I drive a 4.0 litre engined car and pay 2k per annum tax as it is. I don't like it, but it's how it is. But I also have another 3.2 litre model, soley as a donor car (same rate of tax). I think I pay more than enough as it is, especially as I am paying for ownership and not use, given that due to the nature of my work, my car can be parked up for weeks at a time, but still has to be taxed.

Am I being asked to pay an administration fee for a non running car which is parked up, inside a garage on private land? What administration is there if I notify the tax office of its' status, which won't ever change, unless it is ever sent to the crusher?

It's the thin edge of another financial wedge imho. We are motorists, potentially the largest and most powerful lobby group in the country, but in actual fact, we are the weakest and high among the most exploited group.

listermint

sogood wrote: »

I drive a 4.0 litre engined car and pay 2k per annum tax as it is. I don't like it, but it's how it is. But I also have another 3.2 litre model, soley as a donor car (same rate of tax). I think I pay more than enough as it is, especially as I am paying for ownership and not use, given that due to the nature of my work, my car can be parked up for weeks at a time, but still has to be taxed.

Am I being asked to pay an administration fee for a non running car which is parked up, inside a garage on private land? What administration is there if I notify the tax office of its' status, which won't ever change, unless it is ever sent to the crusher?

It's the thin edge of another financial wedge imho. We are motorists, potentially the largest and most powerful lobby group in the country, but in actual fact, we are the weakest and high among the most exploited group.

apathetic judging by the lack of interest on any motoring forum its on.... plenty of views zero interest in even contacting a TD about it.

Youll have people saying ' there is bigger fish to fry etc etc'

fact is these minor things are the fish and we should be concerned about every one of them.

MK 1 1300E

As ever there is a serious amount of hot air on here just like any forums. I probably am the only person on here who has been working on this Bill since it was first announced as coming down the line in Sept 2011 and meet at the time with Minister Phil Hogan to represent classic car enthusiasts I am also aware that the IVVCC who I compare notes with are representing the hobby on this case. The first thing I will say to you all is stop blowing hot air and make a actually submission for a amendment to the Bill for the issues that concern you, Ireland is full of people mouthing off about what others do and don't do but they never tell that person direct its easy to be a keyboard hero on here why not contact directly the person you voted for and tell them your issues rather than ranting on here that's what I did and got a result for the entire vintage vehicle movement.
The main concern from the outset was that an administration fee that was planned on being €25 or €30 would be charged to make a declaration, this is not been introduced at this time and may well be introduced in the future but it seems there are issue with this plan so it is not of concern right now. Secondly on the same point after intense lobbying all vehicles with an annual road tax of less than €119 will be exempt from potential future administration charges, so this means all vintage cars will be exempt from the charge.

The main issue I see with the current proposal is the need to declare the vehicle off the road annually, in the Uk a declaration is for life we really need to get that in place here so why not get your pen and paper out.
If we succeed in getting the declaration for life then even if an administration fee comes in down the line and you have your cars declared off the road you will have done so without paying a fee.

carchaeologist

MK 1 1300E wrote: »

.
after intense lobbying all vehicles with an annual road tax of less than €119 will be exempt from potential future administration charges, so this means all vintage cars will be exempt from the charge.

This is the main point here, and the most relevent for the classic car owners. Thank you for the clarification Tom.

macplaxton

On principle though, they shouldn't tax/charge/admin fee the ownership of a vehicle, just the use. The clause for charging shouldn't even be in there.

macplaxton

carchaeologist wrote: »

and the most relevent for the classic car owners.

Only relevant to those with vehicles over 30 years old and classified as vintage. There are plenty of youngtimers that are going to fall foul, and if they fall foul, they won't make their 30th birthday to become vintage.

hi5

It's good to know that these issues are being worked on behind the scenes, that was my main concern in my post above.
How does one join these lobby groups, if only to be kept informed?
As for hot air on internet forums, I think that's being a bit harsh.
Internet forums are where public opinion is voiced, and its almost instant.
I have sent 2 emails recently, one to the RSA about the modifications bill and the other to Noel Harrington about him trying to increase vintage tax, I got wind of these proposals from internet forums.

Once again, all gratitude to the IVVCC and Irish Vintage Scene for working on these issues on our behalf.

corktina

macplaxton wrote: »

On principle though, they shouldn't tax/charge/admin fee the ownership of a vehicle, just the use. The clause for charging shouldn't even be in there.

who would you propose it would be fair to shoulder the admin cost of declaring a car off road then? I'd say that many people without cars at all ON PRINCIPAL would object to paying the admin cost of someone elses off the road car...

macplaxton

As per UK: The admin cost is minimal and can be absorbed by those on using their vehicles. When an admin cost becomes explicit, it tends to get inflated and becomes another back-door tax.

Experience of SORN in the UK is that it doesn't really get to the bottom of tax-dodging, it gives the law abiding motorist more to do. If you want to catch tax-dodgers you need to go out and enforce what laws you already have. If the enforcement is strict, then the level of compliance will go up.

green-blood

corktina wrote: »

who would you propose it would be fair to shoulder the admin cost of declaring a car off road then? I'd say that many people without cars at all ON PRINCIPAL would object to paying the admin cost of someone elses off the road car...

dont smoke, but my taxes are used for treating lung cancer !!! its an arguement that can go around and around and around

corktina

well ,if you take the UK example, the SORN expires on change of owner and the new owner is liable for tax on it from that date, or has to re-SORN it himself. Either way if it's driven home, the tax is due.

green-blood

yes thats a good way of doing it

Silvera

macplaxton wrote: »

Only relevant to those with vehicles over 30 years old and classified as vintage. There are plenty of youngtimers that are going to fall foul, and if they fall foul, they won't make their 30th birthday to become vintage.

Very valid point!

Tiger72

corktina wrote: »

well ,if you take the UK example, the SORN expires on change of owner and the new owner is liable for tax on it from that date, or has to re-SORN it himself. Either way if it's driven home, the tax is due.

I have a Uk car that i brought home in 2007 but never SORNED it , its worth about £15,000 now if i was to sell it back to a guy in the UK would he be liable for the road tax of it for the last six years ? And if so is there anyway around it ?

galwaytt

corktina wrote: »

i think it's already been established that the legislation allows for an admin fee at some later date , but there is no intention to charge one at this time.

.......but that's the same shoite they said about property tax - that values were locking in 'til 2016. Everyone assume this meant their tax bill would remain unchanged 'til then. Then the small print says the values are locked......but the rate of tax is open to change from 2015, so, ergo, that tax will go up before 2016.

Shysters is too nice a word for them.

What you're saying is they are putting in a clause to allow us to be charged at some time, but are saying they won't.

You really don't believe they won't, do you ?

They are clearly not to be trusted.

germanator

I dont see how this will work, as all anyone has to do is if the car has been off the road, just change it into a different name to tax it and then that person is only liable for the length they have owned the car!

corktina

if the car is declared off the road, there is no tax liability, provided it really is off the road.

germanator

Oh i know that, but what about the fee for declaring it off the road?

listermint

MK 1 1300E wrote: »

As ever there is a serious amount of hot air on here just like any forums. I probably am the only person on here who has been working on this Bill since it was first announced as coming down the line in Sept 2011 and meet at the time with Minister Phil Hogan to represent classic car enthusiasts I am also aware that the IVVCC who I compare notes with are representing the hobby on this case. The first thing I will say to you all is stop blowing hot air and make a actually submission for a amendment to the Bill for the issues that concern you, Ireland is full of people mouthing off about what others do and don't do but they never tell that person direct its easy to be a keyboard hero on here why not contact directly the person you voted for and tell them your issues rather than ranting on here that's what I did and got a result for the entire vintage vehicle movement.
The main concern from the outset was that an administration fee that was planned on being €25 or €30 would be charged to make a declaration, this is not been introduced at this time and may well be introduced in the future but it seems there are issue with this plan so it is not of concern right now. Secondly on the same point after intense lobbying all vehicles with an annual road tax of less than €119 will be exempt from potential future administration charges, so this means all vintage cars will be exempt from the charge.

The main issue I see with the current proposal is the need to declare the vehicle off the road annually, in the Uk a declaration is for life we really need to get that in place here so why not get your pen and paper out.
If we succeed in getting the declaration for life then even if an administration fee comes in down the line and you have your cars declared off the road you will have done so without paying a fee.

All fine and good, ive contacted all of my local ministers and TDs on this. The only one to respond was Hogans secretary and response was just to say he has received it.

Unfortunately you have to be part of a pressure group or someone of interest in this country to get anything done. I do hope the hot air was not directed at me as i have been trying to get other car enthusiasts involved in this issue but frankly that was an up hill battle.

You cant tell people to get involved if they have no interest. As usual here only self interest groups will get anything. And as already stated in a previous post, there will not be any future classics around if owners of multiple vehicles that are not currently classified as 'classic' are penalised year on year until they reach this magical 30 figure.

This is a motoring problem for the irish public and not limited to classic cars solely, so if you have access to hogan you really need to broaden your agenda on behalf of everyone (all motorists) rather than giving out about forums or people on them. But i appreciate your input on it and hope you can utilise some of the grievances here on your next meeting with the minister.

Silvera

Would it be possible to set up an online petition (which people here may be more likely to sign)? ...which would then be forwarded to the relevant minister.

In the UK there is an online (govt set up?) petition system, likewise in the Netherlands.

I'd imagine that somebody on this forum (who is good with computers) could easily set up such a petition - and also send a link to it to all Irish motoring forums....

Chris_Heilong

corktina wrote: »

it's a fact of life that increased and new taxation is inevitable given the financial state of the Country. It's the responsibility of the Government to implement these as fairly across the board as they can. Noone likes it, but it has to be done

If there is a cost involved in monitoring an off-the-road vehicle then it's owner should shoulder that cost.

there are no cost involved, thats what computers are for.

corktina

free computers....wow I want one

Chris_Heilong

your missing the point, admin fees are a farce created to steal money from people pockets. If a person is being employed they should be on a wage and not be paid trough admin fees. Thats like paying someones wages using tips, which is another mind boggling device which should not exist at all.

This country is messed up because people are afraid to take action and then there are those apologists who say things like "we all enjoyed the good times during the celtic tiger, now we must pay the price", "we have sovereign dept and we need to do all we can to payback the European bond holders" or "you elected these people, this is a democracy we all have to pay what ever Taxes the government decided to put on us......we have no choice"...............

listermint

corktina wrote: »

free computers....wow I want one

Automated systems are far cheaper and more efficient to run that having multiple bodies in tax offices around the country manually processing this crap.

I garner that you know online systems are cheaper than manual labour but are just being pedantic. Yes people know computers arent free but the cost base would be dramatically lowered from existing and also presumably the tax take would be increased.

So i ask you. Why the need for a charge ? explain in detail.....

corktina

cheaper , but there is still a cost...and the people raising that cost should pay it, (not of course that there will be a charge in the first instance anyway.)

listermint

corktina wrote: »

cheaper , but there is still a cost...and the people raising that cost should pay it, (not of course that there will be a charge in the first instance anyway.)

We are already paying for it.... Through motor tax. Thats the point. Now its motor tax plus a new cost. Why?

If there is no charge then remove it from the bill. Wouldnt that make more sense rather than deploying the usual parish politics irish crap of threatening people with stuff and then repealing it to make your political party look just great.

corktina

we aren't already paying it, it's a new facility which will only be used by some, or would you advocate the new cost being added to everyone's motor tax?

listermint

corktina wrote: »

we aren't already paying it, it's a new facility which will only be used by some, or would you advocate the new cost being added to everyone's motor tax?

People are already declaring off the road, those forms arent free, the gardas time isnt free and renewal at the motor office isnt free. It all costs.

So yes we are already paying for it in motor tax and this is just a new made up charge along with all the other new made up charges that have appeared over the last 4 years.

So yes there should be zero charge just like the UK.


Your turn.