Kermit Gosnell found guilty of murder - upsetting details

I Heart Internet

There was a thread on her a while ago regarding this case but was closed.

Dr Kermit Gosnell was found guilty yesterday in Philadelphia of:

first-degree murder for the killing three babies born alive at his clinic during abortions by severing their spinal cords with scissors.

and

of involuntary manslaughter in the death of patient Karnamaya Mongar (41) who died from a drug overdose after going to the doctor’s clinic for an abortion.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/us-abortion-doctor-found-guilty-of-murder-1.1392098
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/us/kermit-gosnell-abortion-doctor-found-guilty-of-murder.html?pagewanted=all

There have been suggestions that this case was not covered as much as might be expected by the larger newspapers and TV news outlets in the US due to how it may impact on public support for abortion and later-term abortions in particular.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/04/why-dr-kermit-gosnells-trial-should-be-a-front-page-story/274944/

Both pro-life and pro-choice advocates claim it supports their cases.

My own view is that, in the case of the baby murders that he has been found guilty of, it throws up the arbitrariness inherent in these procedures. If the babies had died quickly in the womb it would have been abortion and legal in certain circumstance. But since they were killed seconds after emerging from the womb it is murder.

El_Dangeroso

We need an abortion subforum.

Frank Black

I Heart Internet wrote: »

.

I've just aborted your post.

Fr_Dougal

Oh no...Miss Piggy is gonna be pissed...

humanji

I Heart Internet wrote: »

My own view is that, in the case of the baby murders that he has been found guilty of, it throws up the arbitrariness inherent in these procedures. If the babies had died quickly in the womb it would have been abortion and legal in certain circumstance. But since they were killed seconds after emerging from the womb it is murder.

If the babies had died quickly in the womb, he'd still be guilty of performing late term abortions and manslaughter.

This isn't anything to do with the abortion debate. It's to do with proper vetting of clinic staff.

BQQ

humanji wrote: »

If the babies had died quickly in the womb, he'd still be guilty of performing late term abortions and manslaughter.

Same point applies.

Up to 24 weeks is legal.
1 min/hour/day later is manslaughter.

kylith

He was running an illegal, unlicensed clinic doing illegal abortions with untrained staff. I'm glad he was found guilty.

However, one man operating outside the law shouldn't have any place in the abortion debate.

The one thing that this case does show is that if there is a demand for something illegal, there will always be someone willing to supply what's wanted.

Morag

Gosnell is to abortion as Shipman is to euthanasia.

Not only did the clinic preform illegal abortions, killing babies but also two women died due to the 'care' they got.

Semika Shirelle Shaw and Karnamaya Mongar.
They deserved better and should not be forgotten.

NothingMan

I'm more in the miniature American flag grouping.

seamus

Morag wrote: »

Gosnell is to abortion as Shipman is to euthanasia.

Beautifully summed up.

Clandestine

Morag wrote: »

Gosnell is to abortion as Shipman is to euthanasia.
.

Youth Defence and Co don't see it the same way... unfortunately....

In the eyes of the pro-life movement in Ireland this is "proof" of the horrors of abortion.

Zebra3

Muppet.

I Heart Internet

Morag wrote: »

Gosnell is to abortion as Shipman is to euthanasia.

I'd agree with you to a certain extent. Gosnell was an extreme case. Although the lack of oversight by the state of his practice (and he and his practice were licensed to carry out abortions) is shocking.

Morag wrote: »

Semika Shirelle Shaw and Karnamaya Mongar.
They deserved better and should not be forgotten.

Absolutely.

kylith

Clandestine wrote: »

Youth Defence and Co don't see it the same way... unfortunately....

In the eyes of the pro-life movement in Ireland this is "proof" of the horrors of abortion.

Plus, many of them are against euthanasia anyway so, for those people, there's no difference between Dignitas and Shipman anyway.

Hideous, isn't it, when you think that before Irish women had the right to travel to the UK they would avail of back street abortionists like Gosnell. The anti-choice crowd like to pretend that abortions being illegal meant that there weren't any, but there were, and Irish women died of infections, or were left infertile, but their families would hush it up from shame.

I Heart Internet

kylith wrote: »

He was running an illegal, unlicensed clinic doing illegal abortions with untrained staff. I'm glad he was found guilty.

I think most people are glad he was exposed and found guilty of his crimes.

His practice (i.e. his business) wasn't illegal though. Nor was it unlicensed.

He was doing a mix of legal and illegal abortions. Faking reports on gestational age, for example, was one of his crimes....to get them in under the term limit.

As you say, he was using many untrained members of staff. The reports on conditions at the practice are mind boggling. It would have been far more hygenic to operate out of a decent motorway service station toilet (as one investigator put it).

pabloh999

Sick f*cking sh*t.

Wompa1

Can't read the article right now, but they should prosecute the women who went to him too. It's like hiring an assassin

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I think most people are glad he was exposed and found guilty of his crimes.

His practice (i.e. his business) wasn't illegal though. Nor was it unlicensed.

He was doing a mix of legal and illegal abortions. Faking reports on gestational age, for example, was one of his crimes....to get them in under the term limit.

As you say, he was using many untrained members of staff. The reports on conditions at the practice are mind boggling. It would have been far more hygenic to operate out of a decent motorway service station toilet (as one investigator put it).

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that he was operating an illegal clinic. I think I assumed after reading about the conditions there.

I actually can't get over the fact that people worked there, knew what was happening, knew they were required to perform medical procedures they weren't trained for, i.e. administering sedatives, and yet did it anyway, and never reported what was going on.

I Heart Internet

kylith wrote: »

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that he was operating an illegal clinic. I think I assumed after reading about the conditions there.

I actually can't get over the fact that people worked there, knew what was happening, knew they were required to perform medical procedures they weren't trained for, i.e. administering sedatives, and yet did it anyway, and never reported what was going on.

You'd be entirely forgiven for thinking that kylith. It's hard to believe conditions could be so bad. But from what I've read he was operating a legal, licensed practice....just very, very, very badly and with zero effective state oversight.

April O Neill

His attorney pulled the race card in the trial. I cannot believe the cheek of that. :rolleyes:

kylith

I Heart Internet wrote: »

You'd be entirely forgiven for thinking that kylith. It's hard to believe conditions could be so bad. But from what I've read he was operating a legal, licensed practice....just very, very, very badly and with zero effective state oversight.

You'd have to wonder about the women going to the clinic. They place must have stunk, you go in and you're told 'Hang on there, while the receptionist sedates you'.

Of course, if you're procuring an illegal late term abortion you're probably expecting something a bit dodgy, but still!

Lingua Franca

From what I've read, white women were brought in one door and into one office and treatment room.

Hispanics, blacks, ethnic minorities and those seeking illegal late term abortions were brought through the back door into the filth pit.

He had a goddamn cheek to pull the race card. What a disgusting collection of human beings, him and all who worked for him.

Capt'n Midnight

BQQ wrote: »

Up to 24 weeks is legal.
1 min/hour/day later is manslaughter.

it's not murder if you attack someone and they die one minute after a year and a day has passed.

that's the way some laws work

catallus

He was providing abortions to the poor for many years.

People who couldn't afford "proper" abortions were forced by the system to go to him; there are lots of such "clinics".

Because of the deliberate lack of oversight the costs could be reduced.

This is the point about "free" abortions; who pays?

pabloh999

A fourth baby let out a whimper before Gosnell cut the neck,

Absolutely harrowing stuff.

April O Neill

Lingua Franca wrote: »

From what I've read, white women were brought in one door and into one office and treatment room.

Hispanics, blacks, ethnic minorities and those seeking illegal late term abortions were brought through the back door into the filth pit.

That is so messed up. I mean, it'd be messed up even if white women were included, but it's just so creepy that black people and ethnic minorities were singled out like that. *shudders*