National Lotto License Due For Sale

listermint

So the 20 year license sale and bidding process is due to start and soon it will be sold off to private enterprise.

Whether your thoughts on this are that its an idiot tax or a legitimate national asset that should be retained. This type of large scale sale of profitable entities is clearly the start of something bad within this country.

Personally I cant see the logic in this particular sale, while i am all for privatisation of some assets that we have there are items which are for the chopping block that just appear to be vested interests and extremely extremely short sighted.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/howlin-told-to-protect-players-amid-lotto-sale-29259855.html

Do you agree with Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnells take on the whole matter?

Outlined on her anti sale website here

http://dontlootthelottery.ie/


Whatever your take on the subject i believe this type of asset stripping needs to be firmly on the 'Public' agenda and not simply made behind closed doors in leinster house.


Poll added for giggles

Death and Taxes

listermint wrote: »

So the 20 year license sale and bidding process is due to start and soon it will be sold off to private enterprise.

Whether your thoughts on this are that its an idiot tax or a legitimate national asset that should be retained. This type of large scale sale of profitable entities is clearly the start of something bad within this country.

Personally I cant see the logic in this particular sale, while i am all for privatisation of some assets that we have there are items which are for the chopping block that just appear to be vested interests and extremely extremely short sighted.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/howlin-told-to-protect-players-amid-lotto-sale-29259855.html

Do you agree with Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnells take on the whole matter?

Outlined on her anti sale website here

http://dontlootthelottery.ie/


Whatever your take on the subject i believe this type of asset stripping needs to be firmly on the 'Public' agenda and not simply made behind closed doors in leinster house.


Poll added for giggles

Since the amount going to good dubious causes (picked by politicans to secure votes) wont change I see no reason not to sell the licence and raise some badlt needed cash.

Schnitzel Muncher

OP, what impact will sell off have on the amount of money that is dispersed?

listermint

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Since the amount going to good dubious causes (picked by politicans to secure votes) wont change I see no reason not to sell the licence and raise some badlt needed cash.

Good causes aside, Why would we sell off an extremely profitable enterprise for what appears to be pittance in the scheme of a 20 year license ?

We have no need for short term cash reward from this particular asset as its profits could be used instead of this short term flash of a few hundred million.

mikemac1

O'Donoghue & Kerry, Higgins & Galway, McDaid & Donegal

The current lot do it too, from Leo Varadkar's website

€830,000 in lotto grants for D15 Sports Clubs

Lotto money is there for the ministers to dole out, back luck for you if your area does not have a minister

kneemos

Marie-Louise has a good point in that if we're going to allow foreign companies to make huge profits online why not do it ourselves.

Scortho

listermint wrote: »

Good causes aside, Why would we sell off an extremely profitable enterprise for what appears to be pittance in the scheme of a 20 year license ?

We have no need for short term cash reward from this particular asset as its profits could be used instead of this short term flash of a few hundred million.

My understanding that the money from the sale of the licence is to go towards the national children's hospital. We badly need this money for this hospital to be built.

Zebra3

This is part of the elite's war on the Irish people.

They got FF/GP with the backing of FG to shaft the taxpayer with private debt.

They then force the privatisation of national assets (i.e. selling them off to the rich for next to f*ck all).

Watch how Coillte and loads of other assets belonging to us get flogged off on the cheap.

That's what scum like the IMF do when they take over a country, it's practically looting.

And the Irish people constantly vote in the b*stards who are carrying out the elite's work.

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

OP, what impact will sell off have on the amount of money that is dispersed?

Well it appears that the moneys dispersed will remain unchanged but any profits made from this private license will be shipped off abroad legitimately to outside interests.

Surely this money would be better spent here or used for our own investment purposes. Its not as if this asset is something that is dragging a particular public department down. In fact its the opposite. Why sell ? for some quick money?

here in after hours a few days ago someone came on asking should they use one of those 'pay day' loan services as they were short of cash. That particular poster was hounded for their idiocy.

Is this no different ? Realistically speaking its the same concept albeit at a national scale.

listermint

Scortho wrote: »

My understanding that the money from the sale of the licence is to go towards the national children's hospital. We badly need this money for this hospital to be built.

As pointed to in the Senators blog, Profits from the existing lotto setup could be used for the childrens hospital. You dont have to pay up front when building something like that, just like anything you pay over construction and completion.

Of course we need a childrens hospital but this is a red herring and its a tugging heart string that howlin is not legitimately using as a reason for sale. It does indeed show how poorly this whole thing is being examined tbh.

Death and Taxes

Zebra3 wrote: »

This is part of the elite's war on the Irish people.

They got FF/GP with the backing of FG to shaft the taxpayer with private debt.

They then force the privatisation of national assets (i.e. selling them off to the rich for next to f*ck all).

Watch how Coillte and loads of other assets belonging to us get flogged off on the cheap.

That's what scum like the IMF do when they take over a country, it's practically looting.

And the Irish people constantly vote in the b*stards who are carrying out the elite's work.

Funniest post I've read in ages, well done, you left a smile on my face for the day.
My only worry would be that some readers might think your were being serious!

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

extremely profitable enterprise

Where's this coming from?

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Where's this coming from?

Maybe if you bothered reading any of the links...

The National Lottery celebrated its 25th anniversary last year. It began trading on 23rd March 1987 with the sale of scratch cards.
The National Lottery Company is a subsidiary of An Post.
It has 108 employees.
The tickets are sold however though a network of retail sales agents, of which there are 3,800 across the country.
We like our Lottery. Over 2.2 million Irish adults, that’s 63% of us, describe ourselves as players, while one and a half million of us participate each week.
Over half of what is spent on tickets, goes back out in prizes and it adds up to a lot of money. In 2011 for example, we spent:
€761 million on Lottery tickets. Of that,
€423 million was returned as prizes – 55% of sales.
€232 million(31% of turnover) to Good causes
€48 million went on Agent Commission
€60 million on other Operating costs.
A huge number of Organizations and Groups have benefitted from Lottery funds. 31 cent out of every Euro spent on The Lottery went on good causes in 2011, end of that End of that year a total of €3.9 billion had been raised for good causes since the launch of The Lottery.
The National Lottery Company has no say over where the money goes however, Its remit is simply to hand the money over to government. Since 1987 the government has distributed the money to the areas of
Sport & Recreation
Health & Welfare
Arts & Culture
Irish Language
International Comparisons
Benchmarking is not an exact science, but insofar as it is possible to compare The Irish National Lottery with others, we do pretty well, in terms of efficiency and sales per capita.
In terms of per capita sales, our flagship Lotto is ranked 5th in Europe, ahead of the bigger European lotteries such as France and UK.
We were also ranked 8th in the world in 2010, with per capita sales of €129. Compared to Camelot, the operator in the UK, our sales per capita are consistently 47% and more ahead.
We do pretty well when we look at the amount of money which goes on good causes too. The per capita contribution for good causes in 2010 was €54. That put us in 8th place in the 41 European Lotteries, and the figure was considerably higher than the EU average of €44 and the European average of €29.
Another way of assessing efficiency and effectiveness is through sales per employee. Here too, the National Lottery does well. In 2010, the National Lottery Company generated sales of €7.5m per employee, a figure which compares favourably with our European counterparts. It puts us first on the sales per employee measure, when compared to lotteries in European countries of similar population to Ireland (i.e. in the 3 to 6 million range).

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

Maybe if you bothered reading any of the links...

So to be clear, you made it up. Because it didn't come from that link.

listermint

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Funniest post I've read in ages, well done, you left a smile on my face for the day.
My only worry would be that some readers might think your were being serious!

To be frank despite what may appear to be conspiracy theories. Its not that wide of the mark. The world bank and the IMF have record and history of stripping and privatising national assets of countries all the while making it appear to be legitimate excercise in 'getting countries back on track'. Which it isnt. If you dont believe that a high portion of this is to pull assets into the hands of big business then its understandable that you are the one who is deluded.

Im not saying their is a major world conspiracy at play here but is parish pump politics amplified, you rub my back il rub yours. Its Denis O Briens antics on steroids and its a global issue.

Solair

The same amount of money would still go to charity and it would just mean An Post might not operate it.

I'm not really seeing the huge downside to the general public other that possible job losses / problems at An Post.

I think we need to protect core infrastructural assets like ESB and Bord Gais networks (not retail arms) from the fate that eircom ended up with!

Things like lotteries aren't core infrastructure or even infrastructure of any type.

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

So to be clear, you made it up. Because it didn't come from that link.

You must be new to the internet, or just extremely poor at life..


http://dontlootthelottery.ie/index.php/facts-figures/

Its all in the links i posted. So rather than responding with silly one liners read up on anything that ive said and then respond accordingly.

listermint

Solair wrote: »

The same amount of money would still go to charity and it would just mean An Post might not operate it.

I'm not really seeing the huge downside to the general public other that possible job losses / problems at An Post.

Export of profits and zero state control over whats done with profits would be quite a major outcome to this dont you think ?

And the obvious one of job losses.

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

You must be new to the internet, or just extremely poor at life..


http://dontlootthelottery.ie/index.php/facts-figures/

Its all in the links i posted. So rather than responding with silly one liners read up on anything that ive said and then respond accordingly.

I asked 2 questions. Please answer either / both or continue to spout complete tosh. Your choice.

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

I asked 2 questions. Please answer either / both or continue to spout complete tosh. Your choice.

I have answered please read and re-read. then read again.

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

Export of profits and zero state control over whats done with profits would be quite a major outcome to this dont you think ?

And the obvious one of job losses.

I'd rather the profits were exported than end up in the hands of overpaid semi state employees or continuing to subsidize loss making semi state company.

Solair

I'm not saying I agree with it. However, Fianna Fáil signed us up to a humiliating deal with the troika and I'm pretty sure they'll have us over a barrel on this.

If we're forced into asset sales I would rather see non core assets like the lottery going than core ones like infrastructural networks which is what happened elsewhere.

I'm more concerned that they'll attempt to sell off Bord Gais, Irish Water and ESB Networks / Eirgrid. There are huge vested interests in global utility companies that will undoubtedly be leaning on the IMF via their governments.

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

I have answered please read and re-read. then read again.

You haven't. Where does it say that it is an extremely profitable enterprise?

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

I'd rather the profits were exported than end up in the hands of overpaid semi state employees or continuing to subsidize loss making semi state company.

Great arguement. But as a tax payer i refute everything you have just posted. Its bizarre that anyone would want their tax money exported as some sort of 'get back at public workers jibe'

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

Great arguement. But as a tax payer i refute everything you have just posted. Its bizarre that anyone would want their tax money exported as some sort of 'get back at public workers jibe'

And your poor understanding of profit is equally bizarre.

Since when is the lottery considered tax money?

listermint

Solair wrote: »

I'm not saying I agree with it. However, Fianna Fáil signed us up to a humiliating deal with the troika and I'm pretty sure they'll have us over a barrel on this.

If we're forced into asset sales I would rather see non core assets like the lottery going than core ones like infrastructural networks which is what happened elsewhere.

Problem is all of them are on the 'chopping blocks' we really need appropriate discussion on which ones are viable and the lottery is obviously one we could do with retaining and using its funds appropriately.

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

Problem is all of them are on the 'chopping blocks' we really need appropriate discussion on which ones are viable and the lottery is obviously one we could do with retaining and using its funds appropriately.

You have clearly missed the point. The dispersal of funds won't be affected.

Solair

It also depends on how the licence is sold. If its just an operator who runs it for a fixed fee & small % with the rest going to charity etc it doesn't really make much difference.

If there's a very large % going to the operator we're chucking money away.

It could actually be better for the country if an operator other than An Post could run it more efficiently and more money could go to charities that actually use it!

My concern however is that the net result would An Post falling into a situation where it needs state subsidies to prop up the mail business due to lack of money from the profitable lottery business.

However, that's more of an issue with An Post that predates any financial / fiscal crisis!

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

And your poor understanding of profit is equally bizarre.

Since when is the lottery considered tax money?

Okay il play your game then.


Explain how its not profitable since this it the item you chose to hang your coat on.



on your second item

Its not a 'tax' as such its a 'tax' on the wishful player, but it presently goes direct into the state so hence its you're money.

Schnitzel Muncher

Thread is all over the place. OP doesn't understand how the lottery works or the minimal impact of the sale and is just in an anti government rant.

Solair

listermint wrote: »

Okay il play your game then.


Explain how its not profitable since this it the item you chose to hang your coat on.



on your second item

Its not a 'tax' as such its a 'tax' on the wishful player, but it presently goes direct into the state so hence its you're money.

It doesn't go directly to the state. It goes into a very badly run postal operator that makes big losses for no reason.

It posted a loss if €39.4 m this year. That's not helpful to the states finances!

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

Okay il play your game then.


Explain how its not profitable since this it the item you chose to hang your coat on.



on your second item

Its not a 'tax' as such its a 'tax' on the wishful player, but it presently goes direct into the state so hence its you're money.

See my last post. No point in trying to educate you. You don't want to listen.

listermint

Solair wrote: »

It also depends on how the licence is sold. If its just an operator who runs it for a fixed fee & small % with the rest going to charity etc it doesn't really make much difference.

If there's a very large % going to the operator we're chucking money away.

It could actually be better for the country if an operator other than An Post could run it more efficiently and more money could go to charities that actually use it!

My concern however is that the net result would An Post falling into a situation where it needs state subsidies to prop up the mail business due to lack of money from the profitable lottery business.

However, that's more of an issue with An Post that predates any financial / fiscal crisis!

This is also a major concern of mine. There has to be a sizeable % going to the operator otherwise there wouldnt be interest in it these enterprises have no interest unless there is a guaranteed sizeable return. Its the way they operate.

I do believe it could be run more efficiently which would increase return but The An Post issue is the elephant in the room too.

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Thread is all over the place. OP doesn't understand how the lottery works or the minimal impact of the sale and is just in an anti government rant.

Anti goverment rant ?

Where i have a given an anti government rant ?


You're the one with some sort of bizarre agenda against public sector bodies and semi state employees so im not sure what side you woke up on this morning.

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

See my last post. No point in trying to educate you. You don't want to listen.

You havent actually educated anybody.

Youve posted nothing to determine profits or loss. I dont think you actually have a clue. I commend Solair as at least they are adding to the discussion. But im quite unsure as to anything you have said to address anything i have posted.

Im all for legitimate discussion but it would appear you are not.

If im wrong then make me wrong.

Solair

I would actually prefer a national lottery company to be setup as a small, efficient, independent semistate company that had nothing to do with An Post.

That way profits could go to the state.

It could tender out technical operations to whoever it needed to but the lottery itself could be state owned,

listermint

Solair wrote: »

It doesn't go directly to the state. It goes into a very badly run postal operator that makes big losses for no reason.

It posted a loss if €39.4 m this year. That's not helpful to the states finances!

Efficiencies in An Post and National lottery obviously need to be addressed.

Do you have links to the losses made and their time frame? i cant seem to find that info.


I do wonder how a private company could manage to run this company that much more profitable and still retain the charitable returns that everyone is expecting here though, Is this not something that could be done internally.

Efficiencies is the key here to what we are looking for not short term gain.

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

You havent actually educated anybody.

Youve posted nothing to determine profits or loss. I dont think you actually have a clue. I commend Solair as at least they are adding to the discussion. But im quite unsure as to anything you have said to address anything i have posted.

Im all for legitimate discussion but it would appear you are not.

If im wrong then make me wrong.

Not worth it.

I asked 2 specific questions. We now know that the amounts dispersed won't be affected but you won't answer my question on your subjective opinion on profitability.

listermint

Solair wrote: »

I would actually prefer a national lottery company to be setup as a small, efficient, independent semistate company that had nothing to do with An Post.

That way profits could go to the state.

It could tender out technical operations to whoever it needed to but the lottery itself could be state owned,

This was something i was thinking of also. We currently use An Post because that was what was available to tender for it at the time, But we need to be thinking laterally. This island is meant to be advertising itself as innovative and forward thinking. We are supposed to be small and dynamic. Its scratch the head time when we are paying lip service to this when opportunities such as this are obvious starting points.

Solair

listermint wrote: »

Efficiencies in An Post and National lottery obviously need to be addressed.

Do you have links to the losses made and their time frame? i cant seem to find that info.

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/an-post-annual-report-losses-885029-Apr2013/

https://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/Mobile/About+An+Post/Annual+Reports/Annual+Reports/Annual-Reports.htm

I'm not going to slag off An Post. They've a lot of challenges and legacy issues, but they're not really the ideal place to have the national lottery in my opinion.

Very few national postal operators are paragons of efficiency.

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Not worth it.

I asked 2 specific questions. We now know that the amounts dispersed won't be affected but you won't answer my question on your subjective opinion on profitability.

just to be clear so we are both in the loop here. i am ignoring you as there is no discussion from your side. I asked you to prove me wrong and address the issues that i outlined. You have not.

This isnt a political rant, its a discussion on the merits of selling this state asset. And or how we could improve it by not selling it.

listermint

Solair wrote: »

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/an-post-annual-report-losses-885029-Apr2013/

https://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/Mobile/About+An+Post/Annual+Reports/Annual+Reports/Annual-Reports.htm

I'm not going to slag off An Post. They've a lot of challenges and legacy issues, but they're not really the ideal place to have the national lottery in my opinion.

Very few national postal operators are paragons of efficiency.

Agreed, from a cursory review here its hard to distinguish the national lottery arm from An Posts otherwise underperforming core business.

They are not the obvious candidate to run for this tender so an alternate suggestion should be put forward.

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

just to be clear so we are both in the loop here. i am ignoring you as there is no discussion from your side. I asked you to prove me wrong and address the issues that i outlined. You have not.

This isnt a political rant, its a discussion on the merits of selling this state asset. And or how we could improve it by not selling it.

I asked you to back up your claims with regard to it being an 'extremely profitable enterprise'. Either do so or withdraw he claim. Simples.

Solair

I think we need to look beyond the arguments presented here :

Left wing view:
Public sector good
Private sector bad

Right wing view:
Private sector good
Public sector bad

The reality is both can be good and bad. Take the bloat and over payment in parts of the public sector or the insane excesses of speculators in the private sector and banks

They've both got their bad sides!

What we need is a focus on what combination of business models return maximum benefit to the general public and have the maximum benefit to the health of the nation.

That usually means a well regulated (something we don't do) combination of the two sectors with full transparency (also something we aren't good at) and also keeping vested interests under control!

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

I asked you to back up your claims with regard to it being an 'extremely profitable enterprise'. Either do so or withdraw he claim. Simples.

http://www.top1000.ie/national-lottery


snore. Zzzzz

Are we done yet ?

kneemos

Solair wrote: »

http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/an-post-annual-report-losses-885029-Apr2013/

https://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/Mobile/About+An+Post/Annual+Reports/Annual+Reports/Annual-Reports.htm

I'm not going to slag off An Post. They've a lot of challenges and legacy issues, but they're not really the ideal place to have the national lottery in my opinion.

Very few national postal operators are paragons of efficiency.

It's not really about efficiency it's the marketing of online sales that will give the new operator extra profits.Online sales may be a good or bad thing depending on you're viewpoint.

Solair

Some of the likely bidders are local too eg PaddyPower etc etc

Death and Taxes

listermint wrote: »

http://www.top1000.ie/national-lottery


snore. Zzzzz

Are we done yet ?

Wow, am overawed by the the intellectually coherant response:rolleyes:

listermint

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Wow, am overawed by the the intellectually coherant response:rolleyes:

He asked for a link on profitability i gave one.

Nothing more nothing less than he has added to the conversation.

Schnitzel Muncher

listermint wrote: »

http://www.top1000.ie/national-lottery


snore. Zzzzz

Are we done yet ?

Pathetic. Some meaningless figure with no context or benchmarking to other lotteries.

listermint

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Pathetic. Some meaningless figure with no context or benchmarking to other lotteries.

Why are you widening your scope ?


Why would we need to benchmark to other lotteries ?

Its quite obviously profitable and quite obviously not in the best hands to manage it properly.

Yet your option is to farm it out rather than address the issue ourselves. Hands to the pumps so to speak.


Poor attitude frankly