3 wood for a Short Hitter

kessler182

My father is approaching 60, and though he still has quite a beautiful textbook swing - he's always been a short hitter (given that he's 5'5", a tad over 8 stone and has quite a slow swing speed).

He's looking for a 3 wood or equivalent to add some much needed distance to his long game. At the moment the lowest club he carries next to his driver is an 18 degree Seve Icon Hybrid.

He has tried several 3 woods (V-steel, Ping G10, Mizuno F50 and even the original Rocketballz) in the last few weeks but isnt getting any significant gains over the Seve (which he hits very well).

Has anyone any recommendations about what he should be looking at club wise to gain that extra 20-30 yards he's lacking?

stockdam

I doubt that any club will give him an extra 20 to 30 yards. Maybe try a different shaft.......a more flexible one.

To gain more yards he also needs to use a longer shaft and/or a lower loft. However both will probably result in more inconsistency.

If he has a good swing then he should concentrate on accuracy and not length. If he can hit a 3 wood reasonably well then just accept that none will give an extra 30 yards.

Almaviva

kessler182 wrote: »

My father is approaching 60, and though he still has quite a beautiful textbook swing - he's always been a short hitter (given that he's 5'5", a tad over 8 stone and has quite a slow swing speed).

He's looking for a 3 wood or equivalent to add some much needed distance to his long game. At the moment the lowest club he carries next to his driver is an 18 degree Seve Icon Hybrid.

He has tried several 3 woods (V-steel, Ping G10, Mizuno F50 and even the original Rocketballz) in the last few weeks but isnt getting any significant gains over the Seve (which he hits very well).

Has anyone any recommendations about what he should be looking at club wise to gain that extra 20-30 yards he's lacking?

There probably isnt anything.

Wth a slow swing speed it will be very hard to get any useful distance gain. Certainly not 20-30 yards. How far does he hit his driver? Unlikely to be more that 20-30 yards over the hybrid if even that. A low loft 3 wood (13 or 14 degrees) might help if he plays links or hard fairways where there might be some roll out. But then might struggle to get it airbourne and lose more than he gains by hitting the hybrid solidly.

If comfortable with the accuracy with the hybrid, then possibly best to just leave it at that.

kessler182

Almaviva wrote: »

There probably isnt anything.

Wth a slow swing speed it will be very hard to get any useful distance gain. Certainly not 20-30 yards. How far does he hit his driver? Unlikely to be more that 20-30 yards over the hybrid if even that. A low loft 3 wood (13 or 14 degrees) might help if he plays links or hard fairways where there might be some roll out. But then might struggle to get it airbourne and lose more than he gains by hitting the hybrid solidly.

If comfortable with the accuracy with the hybrid, then possibly best to just leave it at that.

He hits his driver about 220 on average, maybe a little less. Though he is a very accurate player, he struggles to reach half of the par 4's on the course in two. He also struggles to reach par 5's in 3 depending on the wind with 3 well struck shots.

I'm just curios if anyone has gone through the same issues and found a club that worked under similar circumstances, as he's not getting more than 10 yards extra out of the any of the 3 woods he has tried that I mentioned in the first post.

Unglika Norse

kessler182 wrote: »

He hits his driver about 220 on average, maybe a little less. Though he is a very accurate player, he struggles to reach half of the par 4's on the course in two. He also struggles to reach par 5's in 3 depending on the wind with 3 well struck shots.

With all due respect and not trying to be smart, unless he is a very low handicap golfer he is not supposed to reach a par four in 2 or a par 5 in 3

PARlance

Unglika Norse wrote: »

With all due respect and not trying to be smart, unless he is a very low handicap golfer he is not supposed to reach a par four in 2 or a par 5 in 3

Don't think that's the case at all. Plenty of High HC can reach Par 4's in 2 (or 5's in 3)
The problem generally isn't the ability to reach (lenght) greens rather it's the inability to hit them (accuracy).

kessler182

Unglika Norse wrote: »

With all due respect and not trying to be smart, unless he is a very low handicap golfer he is not supposed to reach a par four in 2 or a par 5 in 3

I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility to do either? He plays off 14, I play off 15 (having only returned to playing after 6 years away), and I can hit driver and a mid iron to most part 4's. Saying one is not supposed to be able to hit it an average of 195ish yards per shot seems a little unreasonable (not being smart, also).

GreeBo

depending on his setting he might get more distance with more loft rather than less...
also, make sure he outs hiring up on his driver (see the optimising driver thread)
this is the easiest place to get distance target than of the deck.

my 2c
if he needs a 3 wood to get there in regulation, then he shouldn't be trying to get there.
a 3 wood its hardly an accurate club to be approaching greens with and will cause higher scores rather then lower scores, especially off 14.

Unglika Norse

This is the point, The handicap system is/was designed with the intention of using your given shot ( handicap stroke) to reach the green and then 2 putt.

It was not intended that the shot should be given on the green.

This getting of the shot on the green is part of the reason why it is considered that there are so many bandits out there.

If you took a golfer who would be scratch and had him play your dad who is off of 14 there is the high possibility that the scratch golfer could win on a course where your dad needed the shot to make the green as on the green all things should be equal.

However if the scratch golfer and your dad where to play 18 greens on which your dad got 14 shots the balance would be hugely in your dads favour unless he 3 putted every green in that case if the scratch golfer did no worse than to 2 putt every green ( from whatever distance) he could at best hope to win the 4 holes on which your dad had no shot.

Therefore it would be my contention that in playing to his handicap your dad or any one else for that matter should not be reaching at least on a very regular basis a green in regulation otherwise his handicap is wrong.

Having just read greebos response I should add that whilst one might have the length accuracy should also be taken into account as to whether or not one makes the green.

L.O.F.T

GreeBo wrote: »

if he needs a 3 wood to get there in regulation, then he shouldn't be trying to get there.
a 3 wood its hardly an accurate club to be approaching greens with and will cause higher scores rather then lower scores, especially off 14.

Couldn't agree more, a three wood will do more harm than good in the long run.

Almaviva

Unglika Norse wrote: »

This is the point, The handicap system is/was designed with the intention of using your given shot ( handicap stroke) to reach the green and then 2 putt.

It was not intended that the shot should be given on the green.

This getting of the shot on the green is part of the reason why it is considered that there are so many bandits out there.

If you took a golfer who would be scratch and had him play your dad who is off of 14 there is the high possibility that the scratch golfer could win on a course where your dad needed the shot to make the green as on the green all things should be equal.

However if the scratch golfer and your dad where to play 18 greens on which your dad got 14 shots the balance would be hugely in your dads favour unless he 3 putted every green in that case if the scratch golfer did no worse than to 2 putt every green ( from whatever distance) he could at best hope to win the 4 holes on which your dad had no shot.

Therefore it would be my contention that in playing to his handicap your dad or any one else for that matter should not be reaching at least on a very regular basis a green in regulation otherwise his handicap is wrong.

Having just read greebos response I should add that whilst one might have the length accuracy should also be taken into account as to whether or not one makes the green.

kessler182 wrote: »

He hits his driver about 220 on average, maybe a little less. Though he is a very accurate player, he struggles to reach half of the par 4's on the course in two. He also struggles to reach par 5's in 3 depending on the wind with 3 well struck shots.

With all due respect and not trying to be smart, unless he is a very low handicap golfer he is not supposed to reach a par four in 2 or a par 5 in 3

Shocked at this suggestion in both posts (if it is not a wind up). It is completely wrong. It is indeed expected that most golfers, not just the very low handicap one, reach par 4s in two, and par 5s in three. Handicap is a reflection of all facets of a players game, length, accuracy, shortgame, putting, recovery, game management. It is certainly not 'designed' to make up for lacking distance needing extra shots to get to the green.
Where did you get this idea from ???


OP, I would revise my original answer after the extra info you provided. Hitting a drive 220 and playing off 14 is not necessarily short or slow swing speed. Infact, he is probably longer than average. So I would suggest that a higher lofted 3 wood (16 deg) with a shaft 1 1/2" longer than his hybrid should give him more length than the hybrid. He should be hitting the hybrid about 180 I guess. And 200 should be possible with the right three wood.

GreeBo

Almaviva wrote: »

OP, I would revise my original answer after the extra info you provided. Hitting a drive 220 and playing off 14 is not necessarily short or slow swing speed. Infact, he is probably longer than average. So I would suggest that a higher lofted 3 wood (16 deg) with a shaft 1 1/2" longer than his hybrid should give him more length than the hybrid. He should be hitting the hybrid about 180 I guess. And 200 should be possible with the right three wood.

Do you really think that a high handicap should be using a 3 wood as their approach shot?
I can hit my 3 wood 220m off the fairway, the only time I ever consider using it to hit a green is on a par 5, where I have another "approach" shot to make up for the 3 wood missing (as it invariably does)
You need to ignore the distance this guy is using it from and look at the club itself...its a 3 wood...99% of the time 99% of golfers have no business hitting a 3 wood at the green...I cannot understand why every week I see old fellas hitting 3 woods and drivers to par 3s...layup for christsake!

If you are off 14 then either you dont have the distance to get onto more greens in regulation, so you live with it OR you do have the distance but no short game.
Either way, going for it with a 3 wood is not going to lower your handicap. Its at the extremes of your ability and if (when!) you do miss the green you wont have the shortgame to get up and down from whatever crap you just hit your 3 wood into...

OP get your old man a trackman session to get the most off the tee and after that have him work on his shortgame and course management; 220 is plenty far enough to play to lower than 14.

kessler182

All feedback so far, however diverse it may be, is welcomed.

Lets revise the distance with a driver back to circa 200 (as he plays links and it's primarily into any kind of wind where the lack of distance hurts him most). He is accurate and he'll tap it down the middle or at worst just off the fairway 95% of the time, but he's getting nowhere while doing it. He's probably only getting about 165-175 out of his rescue on a good day, closer to 150 into wind).

He is a very solid putter, average with wedge play, so that extra 20 or so yards he's seeking is possibly the difference of him having a shot at the green with the rescue on his 3rd or having to lay up as was mentioned above and face a tricky approach from there.

I don't think there's going to be any kind of consensus with the original question, and he does want a club to sit between the driver and rescue so not having a 3 wood in there isn't really an option. Possibly a senior flex shaft/alternate loft combo is the best way forward.

Unglika Norse

Almaviva wrote: »

Shocked at this suggestion in both posts (if it is not a wind up). It is completely wrong. It is indeed expected that most golfers, not just the very low handicap one, reach par 4s in two, and par 5s in three. Handicap is a reflection of all facets of a players game, length, accuracy, shortgame, putting, recovery, game management. It is certainly not 'designed' to make up for lacking distance needing extra shots to get to the green.
Where did you get this idea from ???


Your easily shocked. It is more puzzling as to where you would have got the impression that it was expected that one should reach the green in regulation given the fact that they are allotted a handicap.

To this day handicaps are based on the length of a golf course.

The standard scratch score is the primary source for application of handicaps and 99% of the critereia for setting a standard scratch score for a course is determined by it's length.

There is a small element of bunkering, width of fairways length of rough taken into account.

therefore handicaps are in the main determined by length, the system hasn't changed that much since George Combes developed a procedure for it.

If one was reaching every green in regulation and have a handicap of more the 1 or 2 one could only assume that one was a really pathetic putter.

Sorry to the OP for what might appear to be a diversion from the original query, but the point I was making was that your dad should be happy to be able to play to his handicap and not worry to much about getting up in regulation.

Unglika Norse

Actually on the original post, I do know a gentleman pushing on for his mid 70s playing off of 18 who found a bit of extra length by using ladies clubs. An accident he hit upon when buying a 7 iron for his daughter, took it out to practise with and found he was hitting it as far as his own 5 iron, I now see him using a nice new full set of ladies pings.

GreeBo

^
What shafts is he currently using?
If its not senior then he should really consider switching...

Almaviva

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you really think that a high handicap should be using a 3 wood as their approach shot?.

I agree with you on that.

But 14 isnt a high handicap (its lower than average just about).
And, neither I nor OP mentions the 3 wood as an approach shot. Simply a distance between the 18deg Hybrid and the driver - for whatever use - short drive doglegs; taking a fairway bunker or water out of play off the tee; a par three where it is the appropriate club; 2nd shot on a wide open par 5 etc. Its a legitiimate desire to have a distance between those two clubs.

Almaviva

Unglika Norse wrote: »

It is more puzzling as to where you would have got the impression that it was expected that one should reach the green in regulation given the fact that they are allotted a handicap.

To this day handicaps are based on the length of a golf course.

Handicaps are base on the skill of the golfer (for the mix of skills I listed above) - not on the length of the course, nor on the length he hits it.

GreeBo

Almaviva wrote: »

I agree with you on that.

But 14 isnt a high handicap (its lower than average just about).
And, neither I nor OP mentions the 3 wood as an approach shot. Simply a distance between the 18deg Hybrid and the driver - for whatever use - short drive doglegs; taking a fairway bunker or water out of play off the tee; a par three where it is the appropriate club; 2nd shot on a wide open par 5 etc. Its a legitiimate desire to have a distance between those two clubs.

just because its lower than average doesnt make it a lower handicap.

Average just means most people are around that, the average mens size is 36 waist, thats still overweight (for most peoples frames)


To be fair, the op said "he struggles to reach half of the par 4's on the course in two."
So it seems clear to me that this 3 wood is to allow his old man reach more greens in regulation (or at least attempt to, personally I think its a crazy idea)

OP if he can already reach half of them in two and has 14 shots I suggest that long game is not the problem, also as you get older you get shorter and your handicap goes up, thats just a fact of life that we all face Im afraid.

Almaviva

GreeBo wrote: »

To be fair, the op said "he struggles to reach half of the par 4's on the course in two."
So it seems clear to me that this 3 wood is to allow his old man reach more greens in regulation (or at least attempt to, personally I think its a crazy idea)

To be fair, he says that after the posts I was referring to.;)

Unglika Norse

Almaviva wrote: »

Handicaps are base on the skill of the golfer (for the mix of skills I listed above) - not on the length of the course, nor on the length he hits it.

If you don't get it , you don't get it, but your handicap is based on how you score against the SSS of the course. The SSS of the course is determined primarily by the length of the course as explained earlier, therefore you handicap is based in the main against the length of the course,

Look this is an off topic post so I apologise for that, last one on this subject.

Russman

Op, maybe get him to try a high launch 3 wood (basically a 4 wood) with a regular shaft. The RBZ HL 3 wood has hugely benefitted my friend's game, he could never hit a normal 3 wood but hits this thing beautifully.

Almaviva

Unglika Norse wrote: »

If you don't get it , you don't get it, but your handicap is based on how you score against the SSS of the course. The SSS of the course is determined primarily by the length of the course as explained earlier, therefore you handicap is based in the main against the length of the course,

Contradictory correct and incorrect statements above:

"your handicap is based on how you score against the SSS of the course"
is correct. i.e. handicap is relative to the SSS

"The SSS of the course is determined primarily by the length of the course as explained earlier, therefore you handicap is based in the main against the length of the course"
1st clause is correct, but the conclusion is not logical. It cannot be based simultaneously on a relative and an absolute measure.
A person has the same handicap whether they maintain it on a 5500yd course or a 7500yd course. It is the SSS that varies, not the handicap.

GreeBo

Almaviva wrote: »

A person has the same handicap whether they maintain is on a 5500yd course or a 7500yd course. It is the SSS that varies, not the handicap.

A person with a handicap of X on a 7500yd course is going to have a lower score on the 5500yd course, however the opposite is not necessarily true.

Your handicap is typically closely linked to the difficulty of your home course, this is because the vast majority of golfers dont play other courses regularly enough to even out their handicap.

A longer course is of course harder than a shorter course...I dont get why you are denying this tbh

Almaviva

GreeBo wrote: »

A longer course is of course harder than a shorter course...I dont get why you are denying this tbh

Not denying it. But denying that someone will have a different handicap because a course is longer or shorter, or difficult or easier.

With the handicap and SSS/CSS system working as intended (ie. putting in honest cards regularly, SSS is correctly assessed, sufficient players for an accurate CSS to be calculated, etc), a given player would reach the same handicap on either course.

So handicap is not determined by the length of the course. Nor will he have more shots because the course is long and he cannot make par 4 is two, or par 5 in 3. Its is the high SSS that accounts for the long course in that case - not a higher handicap.

GreeBo

Almaviva wrote: »

Not denying it. But denying that someone will have a different handicap because a course is longer or shorter, or difficult or easier.

With the handicap and SSS/CSS system working as intended (ie. putting in honest cards regularly, SSS is correctly assessed, sufficient players for an accurate CSS to be calculated, etc), a given player would reach the same handicap on either course.

So handicap is not determined by the length of the course. Nor will he have more shots because the course is long and he cannot make par 4 is two, or par 5 in 3. Its is the high SSS that accounts for the long course in that case - not a higher handicap.

I disagree, when you are talking about shorter hitters.
A shorter hitter, by definition is shorter than average, this means that, given the same skill level, its harder for them to par holes than it is for a "longer" hitter.

For an average golfer, sure they would get the same handicap on any course (i.e. thats what css/sss is for) but someone who is short cannot compete with the others of the same skill level.

Obviously a longer hitter doesnt have this problem, and I believe can get away with being less skilled other areas because of it.

Thus you get the classic old/short/skilled versus young/long/wild battles on every course.

mike12

I think when the OP said that he couldn't hit greens in 2 was that he was 30/40 yards away and having to hit the awkard length shot. if he had a 3 wood that went 40 yards further he would be chipping rather that pitching which would be a big help.
Most handicap players miss the green in 2 rather than not be able to reach it, who want to play a par 4 where you hit driver followed by 7 iron then a wedge. Drive 3 wood if you have a decent short game will work out much better.

Mike

GreeBo

mike12 wrote: »

who want to play a par 4 where you hit driver followed by 7 iron then a wedge. Drive 3 wood if you have a decent short game will work out much better.

Mike

I'd wager that driver, 7 iron, wedge will give a lower average score than driver, 3 wood try to get up and down, for higher handicap golfers at least.

Think of the 3 woods that you scuff 10 feet along the ground or carve off into something horrendous...

mike12

GreeBo wrote: »

I'd wager that driver, 7 iron, wedge will give a lower average score than driver, 3 wood try to get up and down, for higher handicap golfers at least.

Think of the 3 woods that you scuff 10 feet along the ground or carve off into something horrendous...

Fine if you can hit the green with a wedge every time but if you miss now you are beside the green in 3 not 2.
Depending on what your home course is like, the idea of playing a shorter club being the safe option can be nonsense. Some courses have a lot of trouble around the 100 yard to catch the bigger hitters, but if you are hitting it 220 off the tee then you need to get by that not try and lay up around it. Every hole is different and the OP seem to suggest that the person looking for the 3 wood is a solid player who just needs to get add a few more yards from the fairway to shorten some par 4's.
The same version of the hybrid in a 3 wood should result in extra yards.

Mike