Overseas aid budget €623m

Silverado

Now isn't it interesting how €7m has created 100 IT jobs in Waterford this week and we are sending €623m overseas to aid Third World countries. http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/foreign-aid-squandered-by-the-pool-29023234.html

Well, lets see - if €7m can create 100 jobs in our job starved city then €70m could create 1000 jobs. Now that would really change things in Waterford.

Do we really have to send all this money overseas when we have our own poor here?

Boskowski

The 'poor' here are gettin plenty as it stands.

Whenever I see a thread like this coming up all I'm thinking is: ok we're complaining how the Germans/EU - whoever we like to believe is at fault - is imposing austerity aka not coughing up enough free money for us and I wonder how things were if roles were reversed.
Those threads answer that question typically.

old gregg

For sure some foreign aid is misspent but there are millions of people on this planet who have things far worse than we do. We don't have our neighbours dropping down dead in the street so why not help those who do.

jackfrostwins

It works out at roughly 400 euro a household of borrowed money a year that we are forced to pay. If you want to do that ,fine ,but keep me out of it.

Smiley Burnett

i thought ye all supported geldof and bono (and all those other left-wing protesters) when they were protesting and lobbying bush and blair and the other G8 leaders to increase spending on foreign aid???!!!

sarkozy

jackfrostwins wrote: »

It works out at roughly 400 euro a household of borrowed money a year that we are forced to pay. If you want to do that ,fine ,but keep me out of it.

You're not forced to pay it. The aid budget is voted on by the Dáil and Seanad every year through the process we call parliamentary democracy. If you disagree, contact your Dáil representative. However, Ipsos/MRBI polls show consistently high support for Ireland's overseas aid spending in the order of 82% of people.

And if you cared to read the issue below the headline - that is, by citing a very recent article reporting on the launch of the Irish Government's new policy on overseas aid rather than digging up an old and irrelevant article - you'll see that it's all about targeting the existing money in a focused way to ensure it goes where it's supposed to go and achieves what it's supposed to achieve. And, in fact, since the 2008 crash, our overseas aid budget has been cut by over 30% - disproportionately more than the budget of any other department, so the figure you quote has been arrived at in response to our ability to pay as a nation. Irish Aid's bottom line has been to, as much as possible, protect aid spending that directly affects lives of extremely poor people.

Overseas aid is part of our foreign policy. By promoting a better, more equal, peaceful and sustainable world for the worst off in far-flung parts of the globe, we actually contribute to creating a better, more peaceful and sustainable Ireland.

old gregg

jackfrostwins wrote: »

It works out at roughly 400 euro a household of borrowed money a year that we are forced to pay. If you want to do that ,fine ,but keep me out of it.

You wouldn't spend €400 to save a life?

jackfrostwins

sarkozy wrote: »

You're not forced to pay it. The aid budget is voted on by the Dáil and Seanad every year through the process we call parliamentary democracy. If you disagree, contact your Dáil representative. However, Ipsos/MRBI polls show consistently high support for Ireland's overseas aid spending in the order of 82% of people.

And if you cared to read the issue below the headline - that is, by citing a very recent article reporting on the launch of the Irish Government's new policy on overseas aid rather than digging up an old and irrelevant article - you'll see that it's all about targeting the existing money in a focused way to ensure it goes where it's supposed to go and achieves what it's supposed to achieve. And, in fact, since the 2008 crash, our overseas aid budget has been cut by over 30% - disproportionately more than the budget of any other department, so the figure you quote has been arrived at in response to our ability to pay as a nation. Irish Aid's bottom line has been to, as much as possible, protect aid spending that directly affects lives of extremely poor people.

Overseas aid is part of our foreign policy. By promoting a better, more equal, peaceful and sustainable world for the worst off in far-flung parts of the globe, we actually contribute to creating a better, more peaceful and sustainable Ireland.

Of course I'm forced to pay it, can I not pay it by having a word with one of our overpaid TD's? not a hope.This country's tax should be spent on this country's people not squandered on some pipe dream of 'world peace'. As for the poll you mention Irish people are so bet down with guilt I would pay no heed to it.

jackfrostwins

old gregg wrote: »

You wouldn't spend €400 to save a life?

Why don't you sell all your worldly belongings if you think that's the way it works.

old gregg

jackfrostwins wrote: »

Why don't you sell all your worldly belongings if you think that's the way it works.

What I do is irrelevant here. You've stated that you'd prefer to opt out of helping those who are dying through need. I'm just curious as to what price you would place on saving a life when it's a foreigner?

jackfrostwins

old gregg wrote: »

What I do is irrelevant here. You've stated that you'd prefer to opt out of helping those who are dying through need. I'm just curious as to what price you would place on saving a life when it's a foreigner?

Charity is not charity when forced. What you do is relevant if you believe 400 euro will save 1 life then surely you would stump up more yourself to save more lives if you think like that and are claiming the moral high ground over me.I see you introduce the word foreigner to try and make me out to be'racist'or 'xenophobic' lol;) This country's primary duty should be to its own people as should every country's, when we stop having collections for children hospitals and other deserving groups here then maybe we can think about foreign aid.

old gregg

jackfrostwins wrote: »

Charity is not charity when forced. What you do is relevant if you believe 400 euro will save 1 life then surely you would stump up more yourself to save more lives if you think like that and are claiming the moral high ground over me.I see you introduce the word foreigner to try and make me out to be'racist'or 'xenophobic' lol;) This country's primary duty should be to its own people as should every country's, when we stop having collections for children hospitals and other deserving groups here then maybe we can think about foreign aid.

There are so many holes in your logic here it's hard fathom. The topic is about Foreign Aid, hence we are talking about foreigners. You've said that you want to be "kept out of it", hence you want to be kept out of helping foreigners. Your logic not mine.

The awful state this country is in and our own poor are actually a completely different topic.

Media999

Silverado wrote: »

Now isn't it interesting how €7m has created 100 IT jobs in Waterford this week and we are sending €623m overseas to aid Third World countries. http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/foreign-aid-squandered-by-the-pool-29023234.html

Well, lets see - if €7m can create 100 jobs in our job starved city then €70m could create 1000 jobs. Now that would really change things in Waterford.

Do we really have to send all this money overseas when we have our own poor here?

Problem is people in this country think they are poor.

Poor f"ckers cant decide what car to take to work.

Poor f"ckers cant decide what food to eat from their packed fridge.

Poor f"ckers with their free educations and debt free degrees.

Poor f"ckers cant decide if they will have a latte of mocha f"ckin frappuccino today.

Poor f"ckers in front of their 500 euro laptops whinging about how they are worse off than people who watch their kids die from starvation.

Limestone1

old gregg wrote: »

There are so many holes in your logic here it's hard fathom. The topic is about Foreign Aid, hence we are talking about foreigners. You've said that you want to be "kept out of it", hence you want to be kept out of helping foreigners. Your logic not mine.

The awful state this country is in and our own poor are actually a completely different topic.

not true - we do not have this money so we are borrowing it and paying interest on it. This borrowing goes on our debt just like the money spent on our own poor ....

old gregg

Limestone1 wrote: »

not true - we do not have this money so we are borrowing it and paying interest on it. This borrowing goes on our debt just like the money spent on our own poor ....

You're missing the point a little. As an aside though, how do you know we specifically borrow the money used for foreign aid? That would be interesting and if true should have been a part of the article.

jmcc

It is Foreign Development Aid rather than Humanitarian Aid (the kind that saves lives in disasters). The two should be distinguished.

Regards...jmcc

Finnbar01

old gregg wrote: »

What I do is irrelevant here. You've stated that you'd prefer to opt out of helping those who are dying through need. I'm just curious as to what price you would place on saving a life when it's a foreigner?

If he wants to opt out of paying €400 euros he has every right to. You don't have the authority to demand he pay any of his money to anyone else.

And then trying to link his refusal to help as if he's against foreigners, is nothing but disgraceful race baiting and emotional blackmail.

Finnbar01

old gregg wrote: »

You're missing the point a little. As an aside though, how do you know we specifically borrow the money used for foreign aid? That would be interesting and if true should have been a part of the article.

The country has to borrow over €1 billion per month. Where else do you think the money for foreign aid comes from, a magic money tree?

jackfrostwins

Media999 wrote: »

Problem is people in this country think they are poor.

Poor f"ckers cant decide what car to take to work.

Poor f"ckers cant decide what food to eat from their packed fridge.

Poor f"ckers with their free educations and debt free degrees.

Poor f"ckers cant decide if they will have a latte of mocha f"ckin frappuccino today.

Poor f"ckers in front of their 500 euro laptops whinging about how they are worse off than people who watch their kids die from starvation.

What has the fact that some people have excess wealth got to do with my government taxing me to give money away to 'foreign aid'.I have no excess wealth and if I did it should be up to me what I want to do with it. If you feel so much for "starving children" sell your house,goods etc. and lead by example, it would be a beautiful thing to do and can you imagine the warm glow you would have inside you.;)

Addictedtogolf

old gregg wrote: »

What I do is irrelevant here. You've stated that you'd prefer to opt out of helping those who are dying through need. I'm just curious as to what price you would place on saving a life when it's a foreigner?

Is it just me or does anyone else feel a bit pissed off that all the millions that went to Africa in the 1980s and 90s built an image of Ireland as a great place. Then in the 20 years all these Africans that saw this decided..."Lets go to Ireland, they have plenty of money and will look after us"

Now try and get a taxi in Waterford city and the Irish taxi drivers cant make a weeks wages because of the problem that their job was taken by a foreigner...

How much a year do we pay in welfare to our overseas friends that decided to live here?

Next time you donate to a charity fund or get a taxi in Waterford think of this. Just my opinion.

old gregg

Finnbar01 wrote: »

If he wants to opt out of paying €400 euros he has every right to. You don't have the authority to demand he pay any of his money to anyone else.

And then trying to link his refusal to help as if he's against foreigners, is nothing but disgraceful race baiting and emotional blackmail.

Wrong tree there. I'm not demanding he do anything. I'll disregard your second comment as it doesn't warrant otherwise.

Finnbar01 wrote: »

The country has to borrow over €1 billion per month. Where else do you think the money for foreign aid comes from, a magic money tree?

It was more a specific accounting question. I have borrowings to keep a roof over my head, I don't have borrowings to keep food on the table or indeed to support charity if I wish.

Finnbar01

old gregg wrote: »

Wrong tree there. I'm not demanding he do anything. I'll disregard your second comment as it doesn't warrant otherwise.

You did make demands on him and tried to lay a guilt trip on him when he disagreed with you. As for disregarding my second comment, you can do that if you want, doesn't mean I was wrong though

It was more a specific accounting question. I have borrowings to keep a roof over my head, I don't have borrowings to keep food on the table or indeed to support charity if I wish.

You wanted to know how the OP knows where the foreign aid money comes from and I told you. I didn't mention anything about your 'borrowings' whatsoever.

repsol

Simple solution to this argument. Place a tick box on taxation forms/ social welfare applications. Let each individual indicate if they wish to donate or not. Deduct the donations and send it off overseas. Bet most Irish people will not tick the box. Quoting surveys is a waste of time, because people will lie because they don't want some lefty branding them a racist. Let those who are so worried about Africa pay to ease their conscience . Personally, I don't give them too much thought. Famine is natures way of telling you to move somewhere with a more favourable climate and stop having kids you cannot feed. If you don't want to see kids in Africa starving,switch channels when it's on the TV and give your money to Crumlin Children's Hospital.

sarkozy

Addictedtogolf wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else feel a bit pissed off that all the millions that went to Africa in the 1980s and 90s built an image of Ireland as a great place. Then in the 20 years all these Africans that saw this decided..."Lets go to Ireland, they have plenty of money and will look after us"

Now try and get a taxi in Waterford city and the Irish taxi drivers cant make a weeks wages because of the problem that their job was taken by a foreigner...

How much a year do we pay in welfare to our overseas friends that decided to live here?

Next time you donate to a charity fund or get a taxi in Waterford think of this. Just my opinion.

No.

jackfrostwins wrote:

Charity is not charity when forced.

'Official Development Assistance', which we're talking about, is not charity. It's an investment in a more prosperous, peaceful and just world. We are part of the international community, and an elite club of 'developed nations'. As such, official development assistance is our membership fee to the international community - it's the clever thing to do, and the moral thing to do. As a country highly integrated with the global economy, we can only prosper when the world does, and so this is an investment in a better Ireland. This is not, by your definition, charity.

As I said, the aid budget is democratically voted on by the Oireachtas every year. In our republican democracy, this means citizens accept this spending. It's not your right to opt out of it, but it is your right to inform your Oireachtas representatives that you do not wish to pay it. So stop talking rubbish. Of course, you're free to privately support whatever cause you like from your personal, private resources (and get tax relief on it, by the way).

old gregg

Finnbar01 wrote: »

You did make demands on him and tried to lay a guilt trip on him when he disagreed with you. As for disregarding my second comment, you can do that if you want, doesn't mean I was wrong though.

Actually I didn't make any demands on him but if you wish to read it that way there's not much I can do about that.

You wanted to know how the OP knows where the foreign aid money comes from and I told you. I didn't mention anything about your 'borrowings' whatsoever.

No, you told me where you believe foreign aid money comes from and you used the word 'borrow'. It's logical that someone has the right to seek clarification on a broad statement like that. My borrowings were an illustration but you knew that anyway.

sarkozy

repsol wrote: »

Simple solution to this argument. Place a tick box on taxation forms/ social welfare applications. Let each individual indicate if they wish to donate or not. Deduct the donations and send it off overseas. Bet most Irish people will not tick the box. Quoting surveys is a waste of time, because people will lie because they don't want some lefty branding them a racist. Let those who are so worried about Africa pay to ease their conscience . Personally, I don't give them too much thought. Famine is natures way of telling you to move somewhere with a more favourable climate and stop having kids you cannot feed. If you don't want to see kids in Africa starving,switch channels when it's on the TV and give your money to Crumlin Children's Hospital.

You're entirely wrong about famine. You need to update your stone-age beliefs. It's especially insulting to say that the millions of Irish people who died in our famine were simply natures 'collateral damage'. The fact of the matter is that our famine happened amidst an island and a United Kingdom stuffed with food. There are verified accounts of food warehouses up and down the Irish coast stuffed with food, but the starving millions weren't allowed to eat it.

Famine happens because people's 'entitlement' to food collapses. Entitlements include the ability to buy food, grow food, access food via aid, etc. In Ireland, Irish Catholics were forced by government policy to live in the worst living conditions in Europe; therefore, they were forced to live on the worst land, which meant they had to survive on one single staple, the potato; when their staple failed, that entitlement to food collapsed; without jobs, they could not buy food even though the country was full of food; due to the racist and exploitative policies of the British, they did nothing to stop the suffering until it was too late - only very late in the day was food aid and (the dreadful) work-for-food programmes put in place. More 'too-little-too-late-ism'.

This explanation of famine - driven by economics and politics - has been shown to be the case in many other parts of the world, for example, the structure of the Irish Great Famine is identical to the Indian Great Famine. This dynamic is in place all over the world. I spent time in one African country where I myself saw these dynamics at play.

Today, we're also dealing with climate change. You have to ask who is most responsible for this. Poor people around the world? Or rich people around the world and our lifestyles? The people who must move, as you say, due to their lands drying our or being flooded, is something we are responsible for.

What you've said is extremely insulting to the 800 million people in the world going hungry - imaging you and every person in Europe were scratching around for food today. It's also extremely insulting to the memories of those who died in our famine, and insulting to those who take that memory seriously and work hard to prevent it happening today.

Finnbar01

'Official Development Assistance',

Typical doublespeak. Come up with fancy sounding words to make it seem more respectable.

which we're talking about, is not charity.

Yep, it's not charity because it's forced.

It's an investment in a more prosperous, peaceful and just world. We are part of the international community, and an elite club of 'developed nations'. As such, official development assistance is our membership fee to the international community -

Membership of international community? When did we sign the form for that?

it's the clever thing to do, and the moral thing to do. As a country highly integrated with the global economy, we can only prosper when the world does, and so this is an investment in a better Ireland. This is not, by your definition, charity.

The clever and moral thing to do is trade with them, not give them hand outs.

As I said, the aid budget is democratically voted on by the Oireachtas every year. In our republican democracy, this means citizens accept this spending. It's not your right to opt out of it, but it is your right to inform your Oireachtas representatives that you do not wish to pay it. So stop talking rubbish. Of course, you're free to privately support whatever cause you like from your personal, private resources (and get tax relief on it, by the way).

The foreign aid budget is more to do with politicians making themselves feel better and coming across as morally virtuous than actually helping anyone. I remember an Irish politician paying a vist to Uganda to look at the achievements of Irish aid. You'd swear he was giving the money out of his own back pocket with his smug smile and pretentious body language.

Incidentally, Uganda will be spending around $1 billion on military spending this year.

Boskowski

repsol wrote: »

...and stop having kids you cannot feed...

And yet throngs of people in Ireland can't even afford their own house, are unable to feed themselves without receipt of welfare payments and yet feel they're 'entitled' to have as many kids as they like.

You know we have to borrow for THAT too.

Finnbar01

old gregg wrote: »

No, you told me where you believe foreign aid money comes from and you used the word 'borrow'. It's logical that someone has the right to seek clarification on a broad statement like that. My borrowings were an illustration but you knew that anyway.

Where does the money for foreign aid come from?

We are borrowing €1 billion per month. Some of that money will make up foreign aid. Where else do you think the money comes from?

7upfree

Media999 wrote: »

Problem is people in this country think they are poor.

Poor f"ckers cant decide what car to take to work.

Poor f"ckers cant decide what food to eat from their packed fridge.

Poor f"ckers with their free educations and debt free degrees.

Poor f"ckers cant decide if they will have a latte of mocha f"ckin frappuccino today.

Poor f"ckers in front of their 500 euro laptops whinging about how they are worse off than people who watch their kids die from starvation.

A generalisation if ever there was one. Here in Ireland there are also "poor f"ckers" who:

Cannot buy food.

Cannot keep a roof over their heads.

Cannot provide their kids with proper healthcare.

A different type of poverty. All while we wheel €600m out to a bunch of warlords. BILLIONS has been hijacked in Africa.

And all the while when we have charities here paying their CEOs in excess 0f €200,000 PA. Lead by example. Cut these leeches pay for starters.

old gregg

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Where does the money for foreign aid come from?

We are borrowing €1 billion per month. Some of that money will make up foreign aid. Where else do you think the money comes from?

Indeed we may be borrowing none, some or all this money. The issue was raised earlier as to how we financed foreign aid and some (including yourself) stated that we borrow it. I logically asked for clarification because it's important and not mentioned in the original newspaper article, for example a link to a Government document or statement confirming this and thus far nothing but conjecture has resulted. I'd imagine we are borrowing but that's just an opinion and worth nothing in the absence of proof which has yet to materialise.

Boskowski

7upfree wrote: »

A generalisation if ever there was one. Here in Ireland there are also "poor f"ckers" who:

Cannot buy food.

Cannot keep a roof over their heads.

Cannot provide their kids with proper healthcare.

That's my whole point. We have people in that situation before they have kids yet its not stopping them from having any because apparently people are entitled to kids as a life choice whether they can provide for them or not. And we're borrowing for that too.

7upfree

Boskowski wrote: »

That's my whole point. We have people in that situation before they have kids yet its not stopping them from having any because apparently people are entitled to kids as a life choice whether they can provide for them or not. And we're borrowing for that too.

I agree SW has to be tackled, along with PS wages. The cause of that €1Bn a month borrowing. However, charity begins at home - helping young couples in difficulties. Not these guys:

sarkozy

7upfree wrote: »

And all the while when we have charities here paying their CEOs in excess 0f €200,000 PA. Lead by example. Cut these leeches pay for starters.

No Irish charity working in overseas development earns €200,000. That figure relates to one person from Rehab group earning that much, which she shouldn't be in my opinion.

finnbar1 wrote:

Typical doublespeak. Come up with fancy sounding words to make it seem more respectable.

It's not double-speak, I'm being very specific about what we're talking about. You and others here are bandying about inaccurate language. 'Official Development Assistance' (ODA) is a strictly defined type of financial and technical support provided to a specific list of 'developing countries' which excludes things such as commercial loans and military/security spending. There are other forms of spending also considered 'foreign aid' which is not ODA, for example, soft-loans, public-private partnerships, certain kinds of humanitarian assistance, security assistance, etc. You might have your views on these, but I know what I'm talking about, you don't.

finnbar1 wrote:

The clever and moral thing to do is trade with them, not give them hand outs.

You're right. Aid cannot solve everything. Global poverty will be ended when developing countries can successfully and fairly trade their way out of their situations. But how do you suppose countries without necessary government systems, human capital, infrastructure and trade access are supposed to just 'trade their way out of poverty'? How can they trade their way out of poverty when American and European companies are stealing nearly $1 trillion a year into secretive tax havens and actively avoiding paying taxes to those developing countries in which they operate? How are developing countries to trade their way out of poverty if our countries and employers are actively undermining their ability to build their public services, infrastructure and human capital? All the while 800 million people are unnecessarily starving, 200 million unemployed and billions underemployed?

This discussion is clearly a case of empty vessels making the most noise.

Spending 0.5% (half of one percent) of gross national income on ODA, compared to the billions spent on our own people every year is worth it.

7upfree

sarkozy wrote: »

No Irish charity working in overseas development earns €200,000. That figure relates to one person from Rehab group earning that much, which she shouldn't be in my opinion.

OK - let's roll it back to €140K+. Any comments on that?

sarkozy

7upfree wrote: »

OK - let's roll it back to €140K+. Any comments on that?

Well, firstly, that you were wrong. Secondly, spreading untruths contributing to public misunderstanding of reality might actually impact on people's lives. I would also comment that while the highest amount earned by a CEO in a development NGO is in the region of €110,000, most directors of NGOs earn €55,000-80,000 depending on the size of the organisation, which, when you think about the responsibility of these positions, is quite low. Take for example, Concern, an international organisation, Ireland's biggest NGO, basically the size of a very large Irish company with international operations spread across Europe and the US, operating in many countries around the world. CEOs of similarly sized private companies would be earning in excess of €200,000, but Tom Arnold's salary was around €110,000. Also consider that most working in NGOs earn quite low incomes for the nature of the jobs, many of which require high levels of education, expertise and experience (€26,000-34,000). I'd consider this excellent value for money.

And, as I said, the aid budget has already been cut by over thirty percent since 2008, so the sector has taken a hit and continues to take a hit.

People should really think and educate themselves before spouting rubbish.

jackfrostwins

You can waffle all day but the fact is we are broke, if you have excess personal cash feel free to do with it what you will but please stop with the guilt and Irish famine talk to justify this madness, we owe nothing to anyone.

repsol

sarkozy wrote: »

You're entirely wrong about famine. You need to update your stone-age beliefs. It's especially insulting to say that the millions of Irish people who died in our famine were simply natures 'collateral damage'. The fact of the matter is that our famine happened amidst an island and a United Kingdom stuffed with food. There are verified accounts of food warehouses up and down the Irish coast stuffed with food, but the starving millions weren't allowed to eat it.

Famine happens because people's 'entitlement' to food collapses. Entitlements include the ability to buy food, grow food, access food via aid, etc. In Ireland, Irish Catholics were forced by government policy to live in the worst living conditions in Europe; therefore, they were forced to live on the worst land, which meant they had to survive on one single staple, the potato; when their staple failed, that entitlement to food collapsed; without jobs, they could not buy food even though the country was full of food; due to the racist and exploitative policies of the British, they did nothing to stop the suffering until it was too late - only very late in the day was food aid and (the dreadful) work-for-food programmes put in place. More 'too-little-too-late-ism'.

This explanation of famine - driven by economics and politics - has been shown to be the case in many other parts of the world, for example, the structure of the Irish Great Famine is identical to the Indian Great Famine. This dynamic is in place all over the world. I spent time in one African country where I myself saw these dynamics at play.

Today, we're also dealing with climate change. You have to ask who is most responsible for this. Poor people around the world? Or rich people around the world and our lifestyles? The people who must move, as you say, due to their lands drying our or being flooded, is something we are responsible for.

What you've said is extremely insulting to the 800 million people in the world going hungry - imaging you and every person in Europe were scratching around for food today. It's also extremely insulting to the memories of those who died in our famine, and insulting to those who take that memory seriously and work hard to prevent it happening today.

I would gladly let Africa sort itself out.People like you are worried about Africans and yet parents of seriously ill children in Ireland have to go around with a begging bowl to pay for treatment and resort to charity appeals to get what they should be entitled to. Charity begins at home.

sarkozy

jackfrostwins wrote:

You can waffle all day but the fact is we are broke, if you have excess personal cash feel free to do with it what you will but please stop with the guilt and Irish famine talk to justify this madness, we owe nothing to anyone.

I'm not the one who brought up famine. I was simply responding to a false assertion by someone on your camp and relating it to the topic at hand.

Though, perhaps you're right. Europe is in an economic crisis, and many EU member states are also in serious debt crisis. I believe we should appeal to the EU to cease all regional, structural and other funding to Ireland until such time we sort out this country for ourselves. And for that matter, the EU should cease all such funding to all EU member states until the continent's fortunes improve.

The fact of the matter is that cutting the ODA budget won't actually translate into more public services, etc. It's just not the way fiscal planning and budgeting works in practice. You know, the government could make other decisions with regard to our national debt that would greatly improve our balance of payments, but as we've seen, the Government is consistently failing to make the right policy decisions.

sarkozy

repsol wrote: »

I would gladly let Africa sort itself out.People like you are worried about Africans and yet parents of seriously ill children in Ireland have to go around with a begging bowl to pay for treatment and resort to charity appeals to get what they should be entitled to. Charity begins at home.

If you saw it for yourself, you would never compare home to the situations people experience every day in developing countries around the world. Shame.

Injustice is injustice whether at home or abroad.

Cabbage_Head

Surely there is a better way we can provide aid.

I mean we all know people who spend months and months putting on fundraisers so they can go out and volunteer in these countries. I mean actually paying to help them.

Rather than give these countries money to do what they please, could we not pay Irish workers and provide them with materials to go over and provide education/building services etc? Gives Irish people employment and provides services to these countries at no charge? Teach a man to fish and all that craic?

Surely rather than giving money to the governments of such countries, our government could use the money to buy raw materials such as produce/livestock from Irish food producers and sending it to these countries to be distributed in food houses? I mean it wouldn't distort trade if it is the same money being spent, just spent in a different way, while stimulating the rural economy here at the same time?

Or am I just extremely naive

sarkozy

Cabbage_Head wrote: »

Surely there is a better way we can provide aid.

I mean we all know people who spend months and months putting on fundraisers so they can go out and volunteer in these countries. I mean actually paying to help them.

Rather than give these countries money to do what they please, could we not pay Irish workers and provide them with materials to go over and provide education/building services etc? Gives Irish people employment and provides services to these countries at no charge? Teach a man to fish and all that craic?

Surely rather than giving money to the governments of such countries, our government could use the money to buy raw materials such as produce/livestock from Irish food producers and sending it to these countries to be distributed in food houses? I mean it wouldn't distort trade if it is the same money being spent, just spent in a different way, while stimulating the rural economy here at the same time?

Or am I just extremely naive

Good questions. You're describing how official aid used to be done. And some of what you describe is, in the literal sense, very Victorian. These approaches contribute to dependency. It's like the old proverb, 'give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for his life'.

Developing countries are rich - in natural resources and people. What people want is to feel secure in their access to the basics of life - water, food, shelter, a job - and the power to make decisions over their own lives and to participate in the lives of their communities and government.

Official development assistance is about addressing the structural issues to enable this. Some of it goes to ensuring all have access to even just the most basic education and healthcare, investing in livelihoods to grow food and earn income, but also to infrastructure (roads, electrification) and governance (fighting corruption, improving their financial and tax collection systems, strengthening democracy, building a vibrant civil society and free media), aid can also help to alleviate the impacts of climate change that undermine all of these.

So rather than one-off injections of good will, aid is now much more about working with governments and public services in developing countries to put the right building blocks in place for those developing countries to stand on their own two feet.

Is this working? There are some good signs. Since the international aid system was created in 1945, we're seeing results from global aid spending. Africa is the fastest growing continent in the world; poverty in south-east Asia has been reduced dramatically, four of the eight UN Millennium Development Goals have been achieved ahead of the 2015 deadline (access to health, education, child mortality, etc.), there are more democracies in the world now than ever before, fewer inter-state wars, the list goes on.

And in this big picture, Ireland is recognised by many different studies (by e.g. the OECD) as having one of the most effective aid programmes in the world.

As a tax payer who pays into our overseas aid system and our renowned charity organisations, I want us to keep paying what we do and to pay more. And actually, the most recent Eurobarometer survey shows all EU citizens want their countries and the EU as the biggest donor in the world, to keep spending on aid, too.

Media999

7upfree wrote: »

A generalisation if ever there was one. Here in Ireland there are also "poor f"ckers" who:

Cannot buy food.

Cannot keep a roof over their heads.

Cannot provide their kids with proper healthcare.

A different type of poverty. All while we wheel €600m out to a bunch of warlords. BILLIONS has been hijacked in Africa.

And all the while when we have charities here paying their CEOs in excess 0f €200,000 PA. Lead by example. Cut these leeches pay for starters.

Only people i know who complain usually have a can in one hand and a john player blue in the other.

How about we have a tick box that says do not give any of my money to anyone on the dole who smokes / drinks / is a bigot etc.. while we are at it?

You are the definition of a first world problem. Head so far up your own arse you actually believe that people in this country are poor.

Potential-Monke

Media999 wrote: »

Only people i know who complain usually have a can in one hand and a john player blue in the other.

Generalise much?

Media999 wrote: »

How about we have a tick box that says do not give any of my money to anyone on the dole who smokes / drinks / is a bigot etc.. while we are at it?

I would also tick that box

Media999 wrote: »

You are the definition of a first world problem. Head so far up your own arse you actually believe that people in this country are poor.

Just because it's not to the same level as those in Africa, does not mean that they are not poor. As 7upfree said, it's a different kind of poverty. And the fact that you don't believe that there are people in this country who are poor says a lot about you. We don't need to be in the exact same situation to be poor. It's the same as saying anyone earning money is rich.

Captain Havoc

I'm closing this thread as it's got nothing to do with Waterford. Non-Waterford related political discussions should be the politics forum.