Summons to Court even after producing requested documents

I was pulled over in late Novemeber 2012 and was asked to produce proof of insurance and NCT as I was an idiot and didn't put my new disks in the display, even though both were up to date.

I asked the Garda if I was ok to produce these at my local station as I live about 30 minutes from where I was stopped. He said that was fine, took my details and I went back to work.

As soon as I got home from work I took the requested documents and produced them at my local Garda station. The Garda took all the documents, closed the window and I waited 10 minutes for her to come back. She handed me back all my papers and said everything was fine.

I've just recieved a court summons for "Failure to Produce Insurance Cert & NCT" after having produced them on the same day as the incident in question. I don't have the name of the Garda who I produced the documents to origionally but I can tell them the time and date of when I produced them.

I headed straight back to my local Garda station to try and clear it up but the guy at the window told me he wouldn't have access to files going back that far.

I called the station where the Summons came from and asked to speak to the Garda who had issued the summons to be told that he wouldn't be available until next week. I've been told to attend next Wednesday so it doesnt leave me much time to clear things up.

Is there anything I can do?

Anan1

Go to court and provide proof that you had valid insurance and NCT on the date you were stopped and it'll be struck out. I know it's a PITA, but I don't see any other choice open to you.

Valetta

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I headed straight back to my local Garda station to try and clear it up but the bone head at the window ....

....while he and his colleague decided if they wanted supermax or not.


Is there anything I can do?

Get rid of the attitude for a start.

If you carry that into court they'll throw the book at you.

Valetta

Valetta wrote: »

Get rid of the attitude for a start.

If you carry that into court they'll throw the book at you.

Fair point, I'm just abit pissed off i've done what was asked and now i have to take a day off work to sort it.

coylemj

Deleted User wrote: »

I've just recieved a court summons for "Failure to Produce Insurance Cert & NCT" after having produced them on the same day as the incident in question.

Have you also been summonsed for not having insurance on the day? If you are stopped and asked to produce and then don't produce (or the production isn't properly logged as seems to be the case with you) then you will receive a summons for failing to produce AND for not being insured on the day.

What you'll need to do on the day is go to the court and try to meet the prosecuting Garda before the court starts, show him the document and assure him that you did produce that very day. What usually happens next is that when your case is called, you move up to the front of the court when your case is called so the judge knows you're there. The prosecuting Garda will say in the witness box that he has met you before the court, has inspected your documents and is satisfied that you were covered on the day and he will ask for the failing to produce summons to be struck out and that will be the end of it.

People often send family members to do this in cases where the defendant can't take the time off to attend court.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

Have you also been summonsed for not having insurance on the day? If you are stopped and asked to produce and then don't produce (or the production isn't properly logged as seems to be the case with you) then you will receive a summons for failing to produce AND for not being insured on the day.

What you'll need to do on the day is go to the court and try to meet the prosecuting Garda before the court starts, show him the document and assure him that you did produce that very day. What usually happens next is that when your case is called, you move up to the front of the court when your case is called so the judge knows you're there. The prosecuting Garda will say in the witness box that he has met you before the court, has inspected your documents and is satisfied that you were covered on the day and he will ask for the failing to produce summons to be struck out and that will be the end of it.

People often send family members to do this in cases where the defendant can't take the time off to attend court.

Yes I received 4 charges:

Failure to Produce Insurance
Failure to Produce NCT
No Insurance
No NCT

Is it possible if I was to meet with the Garda who issued the Summons before Wednesday that he can sort it before it goes to court and save both of us the hassle? Assuming he believes me of course.

carzony

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes I received 4 charges:

Failure to Produce Insurance
Failure to Produce NCT
No Insurance
No NCT

Is it possible if I was to meet with the Garda who issued the Summons before Wednesday that he can sort it before it goes to court and save both of us the hassle? Assuming he believes me of course.

All I can tell you is I got a summons 2 years ago for no insurance, nct ect.. I went to the garda station and produced all my details and the guard told me not to bother goinig to court as it would be struck out.


Then a year or so later I recieved another summons, Exactly the same as the other one no insurance, nct ect. I produced to the gardai station and the guard told me I'd have to go to court.


So I suppose it depends on the guard? But I have heard your better off just going to court just incase some problems arise.. And when you go to court be prepeared to be there all day, I went to court at 2.00 and was there till 4.00 and I had all my details in order

Thanks for the replys guys, I'll post what happens for the next person this happens to:(

0066ad

My guess too would be it will be struck out.

I got summonsed years ago for no tax and insurance, I had produced the documents within
the 10 days required but still got a letter to go to court. The judge asked the garda
who prosecuted me why was I in court and struck it out.

Mycroft H

Have you tried talking to the Station Sergeant or failing that the Superintendent?

carzony

0066ad wrote: »

My guess too would be it will be struck out.

I got summonsed years ago for no tax and insurance, I had produced the documents within
the 10 days required but still got a letter to go to court. The judge asked the garda the
who prosecuted me why was I in court and struck it out.

This seems to be happening to often lately, Last time I was in court the guard has 15 people up for no insurance, no tax, no nct, It was all struck out. What a waste of time for everyone involved, Surely the courts are busy enough?

coylemj

BX 19 wrote: »

Have you tried talking to the Station Sergeant or failing that the Superintendent?

The summons was served so the case will go ahead, nobody in the Gardai can stop the case at this stage regardless of their rank.

OP, you or someone on your behalf should go to the court and intercept the Garda beforehand as I advised above.

And can you please post full and complete information in future, your first post only mentioned a summons for failing to produce, the one for not having insurance which you didn't mention is way more serious than the failing to produce or the NCT summons.

I did have full insurance on the car. I did not have the disk in the car.

coylemj

Deleted User wrote: »

I did have full insurance on the car. I did not have the disk in the car.

I accept that 100% but that's not the point. What I'm trying to tell you is that the summons for having no insurance is the one you should be worrying about. Failing to produce only attracts a small fine whereas if you were convicted of driving with no insurance there would be a very big fine and you would find it very difficult to get a quote in future.

So don't worry about the failing to produce summons, the important thing is that you or someone on your behalf finds the Garda on the day and shows him your insurance cert.

2011abc

Valetta wrote: »

Get rid of the attitude for a start.

You mean h'Attitude' ?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPISMWa0SMU&list=PLCUJ-ySaSV1-DZacximdpNDBatnuLR99d

racso1975

Happened to me before. I went back to station and asked them to ring the garda in question which they would not do. So rand the man myself he just said turn up at the court and meet him before the court sat. Did that and he requested the judge struck it out which he duly did.

Pain in the butt but not the end of the world but like you it freaked the fluck out of me when it happened.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

I accept that 100% but that's not the point. What I'm trying to tell you is that the summons for having no insurance is the one you should be worrying about. Failing to produce only attracts a small fine whereas if you were convicted of driving with no insurance there would be a very big fine and you would find it very difficult to get a quote in future.

So don't worry about the failing to produce summons, the important thing is that you or someone on your behalf finds the Garda on the day and shows him your insurance cert.

Ah my apologies, new to this. Thanks for the advise.

rugbyman

"after making me wait several minutes while he and his colleague decided if they wanted supermax or not. "

you have been advised to lose the attitude, certainly in court or with the Guard before it , but i like your humour

regards

rugbyman

rugbyman wrote: »

"after making me wait several minutes while he and his colleague decided if they wanted supermax or not. "

you have been advised to lose the attitude, certainly in court or with the Guard before it , but i like your humour

regards

I wasn't being sarcastic, thats what they were discussing.

Anan1

Deleted User wrote: »

I wasn't being sarcastic, thats what they were discussing.

Which is, in fairness, piss-poor form.

Red Crow

What's the point in producing if you're still getting summonsed over it?

What a ridiculous system. A friend of mine was in court for failing to produce his licence even though he couldn't as he applied for a renewal. Obviously it was struck out but what a way to waste money by bringing people up over something that can be dealt with outside the courts.

davediesel

Anan1 wrote: »

Which is, in fairness, piss-poor form.

It takes several minutes to imput the details on the system, I imagine conversations go on about many different subjects. They are not going to hold their breaths till the client at the desk is gone. So what about what they talk about

Del2005

Eli Manning wrote: »

What's the point in producing if you're still getting summonsed over it?

As with all systems involving people there will be mistakes. If you ask for a receipt when you produce then it'll definitely be on the system.

Eli Manning wrote: »

What a ridiculous system. A friend of mine was in court for failing to produce his licence even though he couldn't as he applied for a renewal. Obviously it was struck out but what a way to waste money by bringing people up over something that can be dealt with outside the courts.

Yeah it's a ridiculous system. Your friend was driving with out a licence, which is an offence, and was asked to produce, which is a different offence, and got summons for not producing. If they had obeyed the law in the 1st place then nobodies time would have been wasted. So who's wasted who's time?

Anan1

davediesel wrote: »

It takes several minutes to imput the details on the system, I imagine conversations go on about many different subjects. They are not going to hold their breaths till the client at the desk is gone. So what about what they talk about

"after making me wait several minutes while he and his colleague decided if they wanted supermax or not. "

davediesel

Anan1 wrote: »

"after making me wait several minutes while he and his colleague decided if they wanted supermax or not. "

While the info is being imputed on the system LOL at the same time perhaps??

its me_330

I have learned my lesson regarding producing i found myself in the same situation. If u can prove to the judge on the day that u had insurance and nct on that day on the said vehicle it will b struck out staight away. I was told by d judge on my day in court that when u produce u legally should get a receipt stating what documents u produced ,date ,garda name who took it and official stamp. Ive demanded it everytime i produced since and have not had any problems wit failure to produce

Supergurrier

Valetta wrote: »

Get rid of the attitude for a start.

If you carry that into court they'll throw the book at you.

Red Crow

Del2005 wrote: »

Yeah it's a ridiculous system. Your friend was driving with out a licence, which is an offence, and was asked to produce, which is a different offence, and got summons for not producing. If they had obeyed the law in the 1st place then nobodies time would have been wasted. So who's wasted who's time?

He had a licence it was just in the hands of the RSA. If it was an offence why wasn't he convicted? If it went the whole way to court they should of at least fined him but they didnt becuase it's not an offence.

I also don't think you understand what actually went on. It was an impossible situation made by a very awkward guard.

Marcusm

Del2005 wrote: »

Yeah it's a ridiculous system. Your friend was driving with out a licence, which is an offence, and was asked to produce, which is a different offence, and got summons for not producing. If they had obeyed the law in the 1st place then nobodies time would have been wasted. So who's wasted who's time?

Actually there is a SINGLE offence with two necessary component parts, driving without carrying the licence and subsequently failing to produce. It's not an offence to simply drive without the licence in your wallent/handbag. Contrast this with the position of motor tax where there are separate offences for not having tax and failing to display tax. In the OP's case, there is no prosecutable offence if he has produced within the time period - this is a significant distinction.

Del2005

Eli Manning wrote: »

He had a licence it was just in the hands of the RSA. If it was an offence why wasn't he convicted? If it went the whole way to court they should of at least fined him but they didnt becuase it's not an offence.

I also don't think you understand what actually went on. It was an impossible situation made by a very awkward guard.

Your friend posted their licence to the RSA therefore they didn't have a licence. The law says you must produce your licence to a Garda if requested, they didn't and then didn't produce within 10 days. The Garda wasn't beingawkward they just implemented a law largely ignored, but it's still a law that should be obeyed

Marcusm wrote: »

Actually there is a SINGLE offence with two necessary component parts, driving without carrying the licence and subsequently failing to produce. It's not an offence to simply drive without the licence in your wallent/handbag. Contrast this with the position of motor tax where there are separate offences for not having tax and failing to display tax. In the OP's case, there is no prosecutable offence if he has produced within the time period - this is a significant distinction.

Why then is it listed as 2 seperate offences in the Road Traffic Act 2010 to not be carrying your licence and not produce it within 10 days?

“40.— (1) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person—

(a) driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, or

(b) accompanying under regulations under this Act the holder of a learner permit while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle,

the production to him or her for his or her inspection of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he or she commits an offence.

(2) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and is not the holder of a driving licence the production to him or her for his or her inspection of a learner permit then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the learner permit and is a person falling within section 35(1), he or she commits an offence.

(3) Where a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded under paragraph (a) of subsection (1) or is required under subsection (4)(a) produces, in accordance with the demand or requirement, a learner permit then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle concerned, the person has not committed an offence under subsection (1) or (4)(a), as the case may be.

(4) (a) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence or learner permit is demanded under this section refuses or fails to produce the licence or permit there and then, a member of the Garda Síochána may require the person to produce within 10 days after the date of the requirement the licence or permit in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by the person at the time of the requirement. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence, he or she commits an offence.

(b) In any proceedings a certificate, purporting to be signed by the member in charge of the Garda Síochána station at which the defendant concerned was required, under paragraph (a), to produce the driving licence or learner permit, stating that the defendant did not, within 10 days after the day on which the production was required, produce a driving licence or learner permit in accordance with paragraph (a) shall, without proof of the signature of the person purporting to sign the certificate or that he or she was the member in charge of the Garda Síochána station, be evidence, until the contrary is shown, of the facts stated in the certificate.

Marcusm

Apologies; I looked up RTA 1961 which predates "learner permits" and is cast in slightly different language. The interesting thing in s40 is that it doesn't specify that the requirement to produce there and then is superseded by a demand to produce within 10 days. Ths is odd as if both demands are made and the latter fulfilled, it is hard to see that a prosecution should be vald but it seems to be.

Hopefully, at soe stage, there can be a nice money making project to update the online statute book so that citizens may have an opportunity to understand what laws apply etc.

Del2005

Marcusm wrote: »

Apologies; I looked up RTA 1961 which predates "learner permits" and is cast in slightly different language. The interesting thing in s40 is that it doesn't specify that the requirement to produce there and then is superseded by a demand to produce within 10 days. Ths is odd as if both demands are made and the latter fulfilled, it is hard to see that a prosecution should be vald but it seems to be.

I'd say it's more the fact that if you don't produce within the 10 days they have more chargers to hit you with. I can't see any judge penalising someone for not carrying but producing, perhaps it's so they can add it the the penalty points list at some stage

CptMackey

Del2005 wrote: »

Your friend posted their licence to the RSA therefore they didn't have a licence. The law says you must produce your licence to a Garda if requested, they didn't and then didn't produce within 10 days. The Garda wasn't beingawkward they just implemented a law largely ignored, but it's still a law that should be obeyed




Why then is it listed as 2 seperate offences in the Road Traffic Act 2010 to not be carrying your licence and not produce it within 10 days?

His friend was obviously getting his licence renewed. In this case the Garda was being an ass about it. No need for it and a waste of time and state money. A small bit of cop on would go a long way.