Irish Times Supplement

Freemount09

Is todays golf supplement in the Irish Times any good ?

Any surprises about what they are saying for your club ?

L.O.F.T

Freemount09 wrote: »

Is todays golf supplement in the Irish Times any good ?

Its worth a read, the joining fees at the more established courses is eye watering.A running theme with some clubs is how difficult clubs are finding it competing with NAMA operated golf clubs in their area.

ShriekingSheet

Look forward to reading it.

It's always in the back of my mind though that there's so much riding on how a club is represented in these articles, can they be truly objective?

As anyone who works in media will tell you, some of what is presented as editorial journalism is often actually paid for. That's a general comment. I'm sure this golf piece is straight up.

I'm not saying a paper would charge golf clubs to be represented in a certain way, but every publication survives on advertising. How difficult must it be to be negative towards those who advertise with you, in a piece that so many golfers will read and put serious stock in.

Ronney

Not much of supplement really.

Two articles about membership then 20 pages listing all clubs (that replied) along with there green fees, membership info/rates, deals for 2013 and how they are dealing with the economic down turn.

Nothing more than you would get from the GUI/Clubs website.

Could have benefited by having an article on some of the "Pass" deals or "Challenge" comps. Some mentioned under individual clubs

eg http://www.peninsulapass.com/ or http://www.carnegolflinks.com/page01.html

Also some suggested week end/week long golf tour round Ireland including Hotel/Restraunt recommendations etc.

ShriekingSheet

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Look forward to reading it.

It's always in the back of my mind though that there's so much riding on how a club is represented in these articles, can they be truly objective?

As anyone who works in media will tell you, some of what is presented as editorial journalism is often actually paid for. That's a general comment. I'm sure this golf piece is straight up.

I'm not saying a paper would charge golf clubs to be represented in a certain way, but every publication survives on advertising. How difficult must it be to be negative towards those who advertise with you, in a piece that so many golfers will read and put serious stock in.

Scratch that.

The supplement is just a list of golf clubs' response to three basic questions. There's two articles that give a decent synopsis, but to many it will be just statin' the bleedin' obvious. The story of why, it ain't.

To be fair though, there isn't any real new news to be had in the area. Beyond the obvious facts that we're over-supplied with clubs, and membership fees are getting the chop in many straightened household budgets, what else can you say?

The sad fact that comes through, as has done on this forum many times, is that a number of clubs have to fail (and be let close, and be left closed) in order to balance supply and demand. It seems to be the only way prices will find a fair point, where clubs can sustain in financial health, but there's still some value for the customer.

I say "sad fact" for two reasons. Firstly, clubs closing means jobs lost, and some long-time members losing their golfing home. Secondly, because it would mean the end of Lidl-priced golf, because it only really exists now due to these artificially supported Nama clubs, or clubs near them having to compete at an unrealisitic, unsustainable loss.

In short, the club market is in shyte with loads of clubs, all of whom are struggling for tiny pieces of the pie. It needs slightly less clubs with a slightly bigger piece of the pie each.

Ernest Oreo

very disappointing effort by the IT
particularly the way they advertised it
basically a questionnaire was sent out to clubs
if they responded great, if they didnt wtf
then a couple of the usual suspects were asked to write a brief article for inclusion
dealing with current issues in the irish golf industry?? like hell

boards.ie could do a better job

we had a thread here a few weeks ago bout membership in 2013, the new transient nature of members etc - that coulda / shoulda been the basis for this supplement
and then watch golf clubs put their thinking hats on to catch new members
missed opportunity for all...

Kevinmarkham

Ronney wrote: »

Could have benefited by having an article on some of the "Pass" deals or "Challenge" comps. Some mentioned under individual clubs

eg http://www.peninsulapass.com/ or http://www.carnegolflinks.com/page01.html

Also some suggested week end/week long golf tour round Ireland including Hotel/Restraunt recommendations etc.

They should have come to me then! I wrote a 3000 word piece on the 'Challenges' around Ireland. Personally, these are some of the best ways to play the best courses at ridiculously low green fees.

As for the weekend/week long tour - the Social Media Open that was played 2 weeks ago was a big success and did exactly this over 5 days (Mount Juliet, Castlemartyr, Adare, Old Head of Kinsale), for 500 euro - including accommodation.

I haven't seen the supplement - will pick it up on the way home.

Ronney

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

They should have come to me then! I wrote a 3000 word piece on the 'Challenges' around Ireland. Personally, these are some of the best ways to play the best courses at ridiculously low green fees.

As for the weekend/week long tour - the Social Media Open that was played 2 weeks ago was a big success and did exactly this over 5 days (Mount Juliet, Castlemartyr, Adare, Old Head of Kinsale), for 500 euro - including accommodation.

I haven't seen the supplement - will pick it up on the way home.

I have read some of your stuff Kevin and It's very informative, Pitty the IT couldn't have included some of it.

Also think they missed out on some info about the National Cups/Shields which are all starting up this time of year, not to mention a look at the top amateurs and amateur events in the country (who could be the next Rory/Harrington etc)

FixdePitchmark

About 12 of the 42 listed have an entrance fee for Dublin. I'm thinking the closed one has one, Castle - Closed :eek:.

As has been said - the lads on here have done a great job watching this space (Golfwallah) - and as Ernest Oreo said, there was great suff in that thread - it got the punters (us) outlook on it.

Some clubs that you would never have imagined - now have no entrance - but some remain the same around 3 to 7 K. Others in the Gods, other no reply RCDublin and Portmarnock

m r c

I read it and tbh was left a little perplexed.
The chap who wrote the first two pages used two words I'd never heard of before.

bacchanalian and I can't remember the other one tbh. Otherwise a good read :-)

Dayor Knight

Not much in it. Hyped up by the I.T. So I thought... I must get my Times today.... then nothing new at all. As said above, better info on here. Poor effort by the I.T.

golfwallah

As far as I’m concerned, the more readily available information “out there” on golf membership prices, service offerings, etc., the better. It makes it easier for people thinking about membership to narrow down their search for a club that best suits their needs and offers best value for money. Easily accessible information also makes for a better and more effective golf market.
Interesting to read in the IT that a new organisation, The Confederation of Irish Golf, is being set up by the GUI, ILGU and PGA to help clubs tackle their financial problems. This is because the GUI focuses its attention on purely golf issues (organising championships, etc.) and is not really concerned about the business side of things, that is now occupying more and more of club committee time. Let's hope this new initiative is successful - time will tell.
Also interesting to note that there is only so far you can go with cost cutting. More revenue streams are needed and more focussed packages to attract the “missing generation” of 25 – 45 year olds to golf.
We all know that the Celtic Tiger prompted members in some clubs to “lose the run of themselves” and go along with an unsustainable business model, that depended on debt financed facilities, operating inefficiencies and hype. Added to this is the problem of proprietary business golf operations, of whom about 20 are now in Nama.
Recession has forced customers and clubs, as service providers, to smell the coffee and become more realistic – a difficult and sometimes painful process, particularly for clubs run by volunteers.
Ultimately, all this painful stuff represents a wake-up call for clubs. But such change is to be welcomed as being in the long term interest of the golf industry. Hopefully, it will help with market segmentation and targeting by prompting clubs to focus on what really matters to customers – value for money service / price propositions.
As the IT article points out, clubs that do react and change will survive – those that don’t will ultimately fade away, leaving a better balance of supply and demand.:)

Kevinmarkham

Still reading it. Some good, some bad.

Two things:
1. If you ask an old man how he is he's likely to tell you either a) I'm grand, top of the world... even as a leg falls off, or b) he'll tell you every ache and pain he's experienced in his lifetime.

So, if you ask a golf club how they're doing in the current climate, how many are going to go with answer a) and how many with answer b)? Few clubs will express the true depth of their difficulties, because no business is prepared to admit that they're on their knees... because it's bad for business. Rose tinted glasses.

2. Anyone else notice the awful swing of the guy in the bunker at Dromoland Castle? That's no way to play a sand shot! Looks more like cricket.

m r c

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Still reading it. Some good, some bad.

Two things:
1. If you ask an old man how he is he's likely to tell you either a) I'm grand, top of the world... even as a leg falls off, or b) he'll tell you every ache and pain he's experienced in his lifetime.

So, if you ask a golf club how they're doing in the current climate, how many are going to go with answer a) and how many with answer b)? Few clubs will express the true depth of their difficulties, because no business is prepared to admit that they're on their knees... because it's bad for business. Rose tinted glasses.

2. Anyone else notice the awful swing of the guy in the bunker at Dromoland Castle? That's no way to play a sand shot! Looks more like cricket.

Is that the huge big chicken wing lad? Lol'd at that myself too :-)

Kevinmarkham

m r c wrote: »

Is that the huge big chicken wing lad? Lol'd at that myself too :-)

That's him.
Fairly surprised to see bare patches on the green at Doonbeg, too

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

About 12 of the 42 listed have an entrance fee for Dublin. I'm thinking the closed one has one, Castle - Closed :eek:.

As has been said - the lads on here have done a great job watching this space (Golfwallah) - and as Ernest Oreo said, there was great suff in that thread - it got the punters (us) outlook on it.

Some clubs that you would never have imagined - now have no entrance - but some remain the same around 3 to 7 K. Others in the Gods, other no reply RCDublin and Portmarnock

Castle is ~ 23 from memory, but they may have dropped it this year.

Some of the "facts" are also a little wrong, they have us down as 18 hole when we are 24 for example.

Also I totally agree that no club is going to come out and say "Argh! We are so screwed, everyone is leaving and we have no money..."

A lot of them just used it for some marketing/sales blurb.

It would have been nice if the IT gave an actual opinion on what needs to happen, what courses need to close, what the realistic price points are etc.

mike12

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Scratch that.

The supplement is just a list of golf clubs' response to three basic questions. There's two articles that give a decent synopsis, but to many it will be just statin' the bleedin' obvious. The story of why, it ain't.

To be fair though, there isn't any real new news to be had in the area. Beyond the obvious facts that we're over-supplied with clubs, and membership fees are getting the chop in many straightened household budgets, what else can you say?

The sad fact that comes through, as has done on this forum many times, is that a number of clubs have to fail (and be let close, and be left closed) in order to balance supply and demand. It seems to be the only way prices will find a fair point, where clubs can sustain in financial health, but there's still some value for the customer.

I say "sad fact" for two reasons. Firstly, clubs closing means jobs lost, and some long-time members losing their golfing home. Secondly, because it would mean the end of Lidl-priced golf, because it only really exists now due to these artificially supported Nama clubs, or clubs near them having to compete at an unrealisitic, unsustainable loss.

In short, the club market is in shyte with loads of clubs, all of whom are struggling for tiny pieces of the pie. It needs slightly less clubs with a slightly bigger piece of the pie each.

I'm not really sure what people mean by the cheap priced NAMA courses.
The 3 big ones i can think of Moyvalley, New Forrest and Portmarnock.
Moyvalley and New Forrest seem reasonably priced for courses as far from Dublin as they are. And Portmarnock at €2500 for membership is not cheap. Not many seem to be doing sub €20 mid week prices.

Maybe the best way is to do a pole and cut the bottom 50 clubs tell them they have to close because they are crap. Then we can keep the good quality NAMA courses.
Mike

FixdePitchmark

Poor IT - getting a Lash - It was a nice intro - but then just a list of clubs.
I guess we are hard to please here, as we are watching the golf scene everyday. They are looking at a wider public , not golf nuts like us

I'm still , a bit like Homer Simpson but. Golf Ireland Buy.
Kelly Brook in the Sun, Buy.

Yes noticed bad bunker shot - also looks like 1988 (imagine they could get a good photo). He does look committed to the shot - so will get out. Not a RocketBalz hat in sight.

Kevinmarkham

mike12 wrote: »

Maybe the best way is to do a pole and cut the bottom 50 clubs tell them they have to close because they are crap. Then we can keep the good quality NAMA courses.
Mike

Can I be in charge of that, please. I have a list ready and waiting, and the axe is behind the door.

FixdePitchmark

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Can I be in charge of that, please. I have a list ready and waiting, and the axe is behind the door.

The fact you played them all Kevin - you would be a consultant for An Board Gailf Snip Nua.

heinze

missed the paper yesterday, anywhere online to see the supplement? thanks

ShriekingSheet

mike12 wrote: »

I'm not really sure what people mean by the cheap priced NAMA courses.
The 3 big ones i can think of Moyvalley, New Forrest and Portmarnock.
Moyvalley and New Forrest seem reasonably priced for courses as far from Dublin as they are.

Tulfarris and Palmerstown House are both in areas which have have an abundance of golf clubs. Tulfarris has Slade Valley, Lisheen Springs, Blessington Lakes, Dublin Mountain, Beech Park and had Dublin City, all roughly along the same road. Palmerstown House has Naas, Craddockstown and Castlewarden to name but a few nerby.

In both cases, they were set up with a lot of debt, to be more premium than surrounding courses, the same is true of Moyvalley (and it's helicopter pads). The layout of the courses and clubhouses are five star, even if upkeep is now one star.

The point is, they went in to compete with the mom and pop operations in the area and lost, due to a combination of their own poor finances, and local golfers mostly choosing to stay members in their exisiting club, and not jump ship.

The unfairness is they've been kept in the competition artificially, and are now damaging the trade of the viable local clubs by charging Slade Valley prices for Moy Valley golf. You cannot blame the consumer for accepting the offer. But at the same time, you can't destroy the small club with no debt, just because the bank want to keep the big club open any way they can, to service their debt.

blue note

I thought it was a real waste of an opportunity for a great supplement.

The questions were crap. Or at least they should have had more of them - the green fees and membership questions were fine, although some comparison to previous years would have added some meaning to the figures. The how are you doing financially was never going to get meaningful answers and the other question was just a PR opportunity to get them to answer the questions.

Also, there was little to no analysis of the information they gathered. There should have been a couple of pages of stats where they had average green fees / subs / what portion of clubs still have joining fees / break it down by area's / compare to previous years / compare NAMA and non-NAMA courses / break it down by standard of course. Instead they gave you a list so that you could pick out the courses you were curious about.

Finally, even without a statistical analysis, the commentary on it was very poor. They had two ok articles, but they barely touched on the problems facing clubs today.
The GUI don't do promotion - that's a massive issue! Thinking about it, is there anyone trying to promote the game of golf in the country?
The loss of the 25-45 age bracket - barely touched on why they're leaving or what could be done to keep them.

Basically, this with a little more effort could have been a very interesting supplement instead of a newspaper filler. And with real enthusiasm could have been a great supplement.

GreeBo

blue note wrote: »

The loss of the 25-45 age bracket - barely touched on why they're leaving or what could be done to keep them.

I wasnt sure from the article if this was losing them from the game or that they had become transient and move/leaving clubs?

thewobbler

blue note wrote: »

The GUI don't do promotion - that's a massive issue! Thinking about it, is there anyone trying to promote the game of golf in the country?

An honest question for anyone wondering about the GUI's role in promoting the game.

Would you be be happy to pay an extra amount in your subs each year to pay for additional marketing resources and spend? After all the money has to come from somewhere.

If so, how much extra would you be willing to pay?

And if so, why not just give it to your club directly, where it will normally be put to a practical use?
i

blue note

thewobbler wrote: »

An honest question for anyone wondering about the GUI's role in promoting the game.

Would you be be happy to pay an extra amount in your subs each year to pay for additional marketing resources and spend? After all the money has to come from somewhere.

If so, how much extra would you be willing to pay?

And if so, why not just give it to your club directly, where it will normally be put to a practical use?
i

Yes I would be happy to pay extra. There's over 200k GUI / ilgu members in ireland. 5e each would add 1 million that they could spend on marketing the game.
If we just added it to the subs a club might gain about 4k at the moment. They'll still be left with the same problem of their membership base retiring / dying. If the initiative gained a couple of extra members you'd get a couple extra thousand per year and hopefully not hit as big a problem in 10 - 15 years time.

They mentioned the strong underage numbers, but these people will face the same problems as the current 25-45 group when they get there. It's that group that they need to address.

Ernest Oreo

Marketing???

thats not the issue here folks at all
in fact, i cant think of one single reason why the GUI might deserve an extra fiver from me

what i think needs to be done is clubs need to become a little more creative on their membership offer types, possibly in partnership with the GUI if this is possible / appropriate

we have enough golfers in ireland, we have enough interest in the game
getting VFM (for the golfer) and sustainable business models (for the club) is what i am primarily concerned with and interested in

GreeBo

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

Marketing???

thats not the issue here folks at all
in fact, i cant think of one single reason why the GUI might deserve an extra fiver from me

what i think needs to be done is clubs need to become a little more creative on their membership offer types, possibly in partnership with the GUI if this is possible / appropriate

we have enough golfers in ireland, we have enough interest in the game
getting VFM (for the golfer) and sustainable business models (for the club) is what i am primarily concerned with and interested in

I don't think there is that much creativity or actually that much appetite for creativity left in the market.
All creativity really means is lower prices, sooner or later that leads to lower standards of golf course, I dont think any of us disagree with that.

Bottom line for me is that the top end resorts are too numerous to support their dwindling market, they are now going after the members/causal golfers with their rock bottom prices for top level golf (as sheet said above).
If it was a level playing field a few clubs from each price point would fold and the market would heal itself naturally, NAMA is twisting this and its very difficult to see how its actually going to play out, we will probably loose some higher end members clubs before this is all over, clubs that other than NAMA wouldnt have gone.

ShriekingSheet

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

Marketing???

thats not the issue here folks at all
in fact, i cant think of one single reason why the GUI might deserve an extra fiver from me

what i think needs to be done is clubs need to become a little more creative on their membership offer types, possibly in partnership with the GUI if this is possible / appropriate

we have enough golfers in ireland, we have enough interest in the game
getting VFM (for the golfer) and sustainable business models (for the club) is what i am primarily concerned with and interested in

No, we don't have enough golfers. The number of golf clubs we have is too many for the golfers we have - an over supply.

Either we need more golfers, or we need less clubs. The situation can't stay the same, and here's why.

The "value" you are interested in is there at the moment purely because there's an over supply. This current situation can't and won't stay as is simply because if prices continue to be forced down, clubs that can no longer compete will close. People lose jobs and clubs they've been members in for years.

All the while, as the price battle continues, a-la airlines, the quality of course/club is battered down to the bare bones. The standard of the average golf course decreases.

Also as clubs close, supply starts to fit the demand better, so there is enough golfers to go around, which means less competition, which means price rises again.

The Marketing suggestion is a potential way of avoiding all of that. If the number of golfers could be increased to match up to the supply of courses, none or less would have to close. And the only real way to grow a market is marketing, barring an act of God, eg: TW coming on the scene, which you can't plan for or make happen.

Personally, I think it's far more likely that the economic situation will just play out, rather than any marketing effort turning the tide. Mainly because (a) people don't have enough money, so getting them involved is too hard, and (b) too many clubs are sorted, and don't need to row in behind the effort.

Ernest Oreo

this is difficult to digest.

is boards.ie only frequented by jaded public servants?

Ernest Oreo

a smile always comes to my face when the first thing i hear out of a client is 'we need more morketing'

off you go so

blue note

Ernest Oreo wrote: »

a smile always comes to my face when the first thing i hear out of a client is 'we need more morketing'

off you go so

It's not that we need more marketing, we don't have any to build on! Clubs advertise, and the Irish Open is advertised. But what is actually done to try to encourage people to take it up / to get interested in it?

I agree with the previous posters that supply is currently too great for the demand and that it will eventually lessen (i.e. clubs will close). Even with the NAMA courses, I think this will happen. However, since there's a lack of golfers between 25 and 45, in 20 years time when the current 45 - 65 year olds are gone there will be an even smaller demand again. Getting more in the 25 - 45 group playing is important for now, but crucial for the future.

PARlance

blue note wrote: »

It's not that we need more marketing, we don't have any to build on! Clubs advertise, and the Irish Open is advertised. But what is actually done to try to encourage people to take it up / to get interested in it?

I agree with the previous posters that supply is currently too great for the demand and that it will eventually lessen (i.e. clubs will close). Even with the NAMA courses, I think this will happen. However, since there's a lack of golfers between 25 and 45, in 20 years time when the current 45 - 65 year olds are gone there will be an even smaller demand again. Getting more in the 25 - 45 group playing is important for now, but crucial for the future.

There was a thread a few weeks back on this and my thoughts are as above.
Golf in Ireland (be it the clubs or GUI) are missing out massive opportunities to attract new players to the game.

Clubs need to get more creative, not in terms of membership fees, but in terms of getting a driver into someones hand for the first time.

Simple example:
It wouldn't cost much for a golf club to approach the local GAA, Soccer etc team and invite them to the club some evening. Team building for the sports team... an open day for the golf club.
Have a few sets of clubs for them to use and you are potentially open up the game to new players/customers... Focus on the ones with the dodgy knees and graying hair who may be coming to the end of their playing days

I don't know enough about the GUI to know what they are/aren't doing.
They strike me as an organisation whose main focus is on coaching existing players rather than attracting as many players as possible.

They haven't got the figures for 2012 up yet for number of registered players.
But in 2011 it had dropped to 182,000 from a high of 210,000 in 2004.
I'd imagine 2012 figures, when released, will be in the low 170,000's.

Anyone got examples of clubs that are actively (outside of dropping prices) trying to encourage new players to the game?
I may be wrong, but there doesn't seem to be much going on in this area.

GreeBo

^
I'd honestly say that you are just not aware of it tbh.

I dont think the corporate/business clubs are, but members clubs definitely are.
We have Transition Year programmes, juvenile golf, junior golf, family days etc, etc.

This is the best and imo most appropriate way for member clubs to grow the game. They are never going to start sending out flyers to attract what I respectfully deem "randomers". Its just not a model that suits, old, established, private clubs.
The majority of members in my club came up through the ranks and their parents and grandparents were members. That grows your membership naturally.

inthehole1

hi is there anywhere i can see this supplement online
missed this yesterday

Rikand

Kevinmarkham wrote: »

Can I be in charge of that, please. I have a list ready and waiting, and the axe is behind the door.

I agree with this


as long as Athlone isn't on it

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

^
I'd honestly say that you are just not aware of it tbh.

I dont think the corporate/business clubs are, but members clubs definitely are.
We have Transition Year programmes, juvenile golf, junior golf, family days etc, etc.

This is the best and imo most appropriate way for member clubs to grow the game. They are never going to start sending out flyers to attract what I respectfully deem "randomers". Its just not a model that suits, old, established, private clubs.
The majority of members in my club came up through the ranks and their parents and grandparents were members. That grows your membership naturally.

GreeBo , is it not fair to say that the model of your club is only 10 % of the golf clubs in the country ?
The majority of clubs are open shop now. We are talking about golf nationwide. I think somebody centrally needs to promote the game. GUI makes sense. Look at what the GAA did with hurling in Dublin.
The model of your club is fine for it, but should the irish golfing community, widen its nepotistic model ?


The average family in ireland is now only 1.4 kids. I think even " old clubs "could be in for a
Fright.

It seems a bit crazy that the only way i joined a golf club was by self-determination. Every other sport i did seriously, was by outside promotion and encouragement.

It is just daft.

Look at other models. Change before too late.

golfwallah

GreeBo wrote: »

^
I'd honestly say that you are just not aware of it tbh.

I dont think the corporate/business clubs are, but members clubs definitely are.
We have Transition Year programmes, juvenile golf, junior golf, family days etc, etc.

This is the best and imo most appropriate way for member clubs to grow the game. They are never going to start sending out flyers to attract what I respectfully deem "randomers". Its just not a model that suits, old, established, private clubs.
The majority of members in my club came up through the ranks and their parents and grandparents were members. That grows your membership naturally.

With respect, if I were living relatively near Dublin City Centre, with a good income, spare discretionary spending, family tradition of membership of the same prestigious golf club and time to play golf, I too might have a similar view of the golf market.
But this particular situation only applies to a very small proportion of golf club members and potential members and there is no evidence that it can be extrapolated to the entire Irish golf market.
My experience over a number of years on committee and club management, is that the golf market, like most maturing markets, has become very segmented – i.e. the needs and wants of customers is varied, depending on factors such as age, family situation, time availability (football dads & mums, etc.), availability of discretionary spending, need for business networking, desire to play with friends, playing ability, distance of club from home, playing facilities, clubhouse, course, practice areas, topography (e.g. flat or hilly), etc., etc. The list goes on and on!
Similar variations in needs, wants and views apply to every club’s membership base. Some just want things to stay as they are, some wouldn’t mind an increase in sub levels, others would, some want improved playing, practice and clubhouse facilities (may not be prepared to pay more for them), some are hanging on to avail of reduced senior rates, some have experienced a sudden drop in family income, again the list goes on and on. But the one certainty is that many club members are voting with their feet, not renewing and finding alternatives to currently available club membership options that better meet their needs.
So something must be wrong. These issues are time consuming to address. And to keep existing members abreast of what is happening and bring them along with the need for change requires much better internal communication than usually happens in clubs.
Ultimately, to avoid knee-jerk, crisis management, requires a considerable management input and the willingness / staying power to change the status quo. For example, you need to keep abreast of your competitor club membership and green fee rates, have a realistic picture of where your club fits in the market, come up with bundles of service benefits that better match the needs of your club’s market segment (no point in pretending you’re Royal Dublin or the K Club, if you’re an ordinary working folk club down the road), etc. You also need to look in detail at every element of cost, implement more cost effective alternatives and, at the same time, keep up standards on the course.
There are difficult issues for part-time voluntary committees with very limited resources to address effectively. The GUI, ILGU and PGA produced a booklet on these issues about 4 years ago, but have done very little in terms of follow up to date (originally on GUI site but now only on ILGU site): http://www.ilgu.ie/uploads/docs/2138_ClubMembership.pdf

heinze

Anyone have a link to the supplement at all????

GreeBo

golfwallah wrote: »

With respect, if I were living relatively near Dublin City Centre, with a good income, spare discretionary spending, family tradition of membership of the same prestigious golf club and time to play golf, I too might have a similar view of the golf market.
But this particular situation only applies to a very small proportion of golf club members and potential members and there is no evidence that it can be extrapolated to the entire Irish golf market.
My experience over a number of years on committee and club management, is that the golf market, like most maturing markets, has become very segmented – i.e. the needs and wants of customers is varied, depending on factors such as age, family situation, time availability (football dads & mums, etc.), availability of discretionary spending, need for business networking, desire to play with friends, playing ability, distance of club from home, playing facilities, clubhouse, course, practice areas, topography (e.g. flat or hilly), etc., etc. The list goes on and on!
Similar variations in needs, wants and views apply to every club’s membership base. Some just want things to stay as they are, some wouldn’t mind an increase in sub levels, others would, some want improved playing, practice and clubhouse facilities (may not be prepared to pay more for them), some are hanging on to avail of reduced senior rates, some have experienced a sudden drop in family income, again the list goes on and on. But the one certainty is that many club members are voting with their feet, not renewing and finding alternatives to currently available club membership options that better meet their needs.
So something must be wrong. These issues are time consuming to address. And to keep existing members abreast of what is happening and bring them along with the need for change requires much better internal communication than usually happens in clubs.
Ultimately, to avoid knee-jerk, crisis management, requires a considerable management input and the willingness / staying power to change the status quo. For example, you need to keep abreast of your competitor club membership and green fee rates, have a realistic picture of where your club fits in the market, come up with bundles of service benefits that better match the needs of your club’s market segment (no point in pretending you’re Royal Dublin or the K Club, if you’re an ordinary working folk club down the road), etc. You also need to look in detail at every element of cost, implement more cost effective alternatives and, at the same time, keep up standards on the course.
There are difficult issues for part-time voluntary committees with very limited resources to address effectively. The GUI, ILGU and PGA produced a booklet on these issues about 4 years ago, but have done very little in terms of follow up to date (originally on GUI site but now only on ILGU site): http://www.ilgu.ie/uploads/docs/2138_ClubMembership.pdf

I totally agree, thats why I keep saying that I think private members clubs (fair to say my experience is limited to greater Dublin area) are doing all they can and more importantly all they *should* to promote and grow the game.

I think its fine that members vote with their feet, if there is a club thats "better" for you (closer, cheaper, flatter, harder, easier, more friends, whatever) then you should consider joining there.

However, the problem with this at the moment is that we have an abundance of courses that seem to be able to provide an excellent course at lower than expected prices, meaning the traditional clubs are squeezed.

These clubs are just trying to outlast each other, but as we can see the quality is starting to suffer...

GreeBo

heinze wrote: »

Anyone have a link to the supplement at all????

www.irishtimes.com

Mister Sifter

Sure, why would the GUI spend any of our cash to actually promote the game when it can instead send use it to send a small batch of spoiled full-time amateur pets off around the globe every year. I mean, look at the great return the game gets from that.

GreeBo

bitter much?

you do know that they run the game in this country and also " all" the inter club comps right?

Mister Sifter

GreeBo wrote: »

bitter much?

you do know that they run the game in this country and also " all" the inter club comps right?

Oh, they 'run' the game do they? These will be the same inter club events that the GUI charge clubs a whack of cash to allow them to play in each year, i suppose?

Nice lemons by the way. Juicy looking.

GreeBo

Mister Sifter wrote: »

Oh, they 'run' the game do they? These will be the same inter club events that the GUI charge clubs a whack of cash to allow them to play in each year, i suppose?

Nice lemons by the way. Juicy looking.

Who runs it if they dont then?

Mister Sifter

GreeBo wrote: »

Who runs it if they dont then?

I was being sarcastic, in reply to your condescending, moronic post.

GreeBo

Mister Sifter wrote: »

I was being sarcastic, in reply to your condescending, moronic post.

So then I'm totally confused.
Could you elaborate on what your thoughts are around the GUI/ILGU and they work that they do?

Mister Sifter

GreeBo wrote: »

So then I'm totally confused.
Could you elaborate on what your thoughts are around the GUI/ILGU and they work that they do?

I think I've made it quite clear already re the GUI.

Almaviva

GreeBo wrote: »

bitter much?

Folks, I think its important at this juncture, before this thread stays on topic rather than going off on a citrus tangent to point out that lemons are sour, not bitter.

golfwallah

Frustrating – isn’t it – we’re all looking for a simple one line solution to a complex problem and looking for someone to blame. Funny enough, this is just like what’s been happening in the Irish economy and just like what happens in the majority of member owned golf clubs. Human nature, I guess! And history shows that it often takes a catastrophe before we’re prompted into realistic solutions – no matter what the odd dissenting voice says. So, more than likely, there are a lot more member club closures ahead – painful and all that this will be!

And yet, if you stop to think about it, there are solutions and, yes, the GUI and clubs have slightly different roles to play in solving the problem – and, guess what, none of this is easy.

I’m saying this because I’ve been there as an incoming captain, with only a part understanding of the issues, being put in a situation with a weight of member expectation that you and the committee can solve problems and bring the club through stormy economic waters. After all, “you volunteered for the job, now go and solve it”.

My experience is that very few think through how we got into this mess – and, better drop the blame game, which only results in defensiveness and personalised slagging.

To understand what’s going on, let’s look a bit closer at what has changed in recent years. In the 20 years to 2009, the number of clubs and membership increased dramatically. Demand exceeded supply and clubs had no problem in getting members. In our little club alone, all we had to do at AGMs was to agree to let in a few more members. And at €7,000 a pop, with almost zero marketing effort, we only needed about 15 new members to raise €105,000 – easy as pie!

Different now – yet many clubs are stuck in a time warp with the same business model as we had in the boom times. And what is that business model? – well, mostly keep doing what we always did, guided by the AGM and Constitution. And this is where the GUI comes in, as I’ve found that most member club constitutions are based on the pro forma provided by the GUI (albeit, slightly modified to suit individual clubs and adopted by them at AGMs / EGMs, etc.)!!

You see, constitutions are designed to prevent quick change – for a “steady as she goes approach” – not for the more nimble approach required to deal with a totally changed economic environment.

And now that the economic environment had changed, the GUI, also a mainly voluntary organisation, finds itself too busy dealing with issues of golf administration – not business.

Imagine, an incoming captain / committee waiting until end February (membership renewal deadline) to find they are €100K – €200K short to run the club and have an immediate major cash flow problem to pay day to day expenses. Not so funny, when peoples’ jobs are at stake! Will the Constitution and AGM solve the immediate problem? It’s like expecting the memorandum and articles of the shipping company to stop the Titanic from hitting an iceberg.

To my mind, the best thing the GUI can do on the business front is to tell the clubs that they need to review their Constitutions in the light of changed economic circumstances and make them better fit for purpose. Or then again, this might leave them more vulnerable to litigation??

Clubs also have responsibilities themselves, to ensure they choose people with the skill sets and time to plan and implement the right business decisions, including the communication piece to bring members along with them.

Ironically, the two things that give the despised Nama courses the competitive edge over member clubs are (a) taxpayer support for their loans and (b) they are not hamstrung by constitutions that require an AGM or EGM every time they need to respond to changing market conditions.

Keithing

I think it pretty obvious that the "business" of golf is changing at a pretty rapid pace in Ireland.
What people need to understand is that the majority of clubs who had ques forming around the corner for membership 5/10 years ago never had to go and source new business, it was there waiting for them.
Now these same managers and committees have had to do a 180. The old saying of "adapt or die" has never been more relevant.

What was their answer:

lower green fee rates (but dont advertise it too much because we dont want the masses thinking that we are struggling).

In my opinion, I feel the GUI need to formulate a plan in which golfers can attain a handicap without a club membership. This will open up the possibility for more competition days(Income), with a larger number of competitors(more income).

Where as being a member is important to some people, I prefer the option of teeing off somewhere different each week. Give me a handicap and I will play competitions each week in different clubs.

There has to be more to the solution than lowered green fees and no entrance fee on membership because the fact remains, there are still a huge number of golfers in this country, just not a huge number of members.