4-Paged CV, Too Long?

oB1

My CV is currently 4 pages long, with detailed information about myself, and my working & educational background, all information in it is relevant, so id be afraid to chop it.

Is 4 pages too much would you think?

SBWife

Yes, I'd only go to two pages if you have 10 to 15 years of experience, less than that and you should be just one page.

Stheno

I've over 15 years experience and my c.v. is 2 pages long including all my roles as an IT contractor (5 in four years) and my qualifications.

oB1

SBWife wrote: »

Yes, I'd only go to two pages if you have 10 to 15 years of experience, less than that and you should be just one page.

Stheno wrote: »

I've over 15 years experience and my c.v. is 2 pages long including all my roles as an IT contractor (5 in four years) and my qualifications.

Thanks guys, i am an IT Professional myself, perhaps i went a little to in to detail on the summary section, if i where to scrap that, id be down to two pages, i listed everything i have had experience with to date, including my latest position details etc.

should i be leaving all of that in, or what should i be doing?

April O Neill

RobertHopkins wrote: »

My CV is currently 4 pages long, with detailed information about myself, and my working & educational background, all information in it is relevant, so id be afraid to chop it.

Is 4 pages too much would you think?

Far too long.

Cut the information about yourself, or max one or two sentences.

SBWife wrote: »

Yes, I'd only go to two pages if you have 10 to 15 years of experience, less than that and you should be just one page.

I only have 2 years experience and I need two pages.

oB1

April O Neill wrote: »

Far too long.

Cut the information about yourself, or max one or two sentences.



I only have 2 years experience and I need two pages.

Thanks, should i include the information i cut from the CV, in the cover letter instead?

SBWife

April O Neill wrote: »

I only have 2 years experience and I need two pages.

No you don't, you just can't make a decision about what is important and what isn't.

SBWife

SBWife wrote: »

No you don't, you just can't make a decision about what is important and what isn't.

AFAIK it's always two pages, not necessarily full though.

Even in college talks on CV writing, where some people have never had a job, only educational experience, 2 pages are still recommended.

omahaid

As someone who has done a small amount of CV screening and interviewing from a technical perspective I really couldn't care less if a CV was 2/3/4 pages once I didn't say to myself "Jeez, this goes on a bit". Maybe HR/managerial people feel different though.

Ray Palmer

As somebody else who has reviewed CVs if it runs over 2 pages I would expect them to be very very experienced. The first page is the most important and the 2nd is just for more detail.
People do not read a full CV unless it is really relevant and people often put in useless information for their first job and then just keep adding to it.

If you have to look at a lot of CVs you don't read them all fully . It should be clear and easy to read.

Mistakes likely made are fully addresses, date of birth and hobbies. A lot of wasted space on CV with useless information.

Mrs OBumble

IMHO (and yes, I've been a hiring manager, ssen hundreds of CVs), it's more about formatting and targetting the CV to the role / hiring-manager, than about length.

The full version of my professional CV is about 6 pages long, very well formatted, lists the type of systems and technologies in each role, and uses phrases like "elicited and analysed requirements, wrote functional, non-functional and reporting specifications and software quality assurance plans, co-ordinated UAT, managed requirements change during the development phase of the SDLC". It also has every professional-development course I've ever done - though I usually edit some out before sending it to places.

My totally-dumbed-down-for-temping-jobs CV is two sparse looking pages, has no job titles and uses phrases like "made changes on the computer" (for the same work that the previuos sentence is for).

I've got a couple of in-between versions, targeted at different audiences.

Both the full and "lite" versions have got me jobs ... different jobs, obviously :-)

Even though HR people may not understand the phrases I use - you can be sure that their pattern-matching software picks up terms like "SDLC" "Agile" "object" "requirements analysis" "java" and the like. So I usually write for the software, but format for humans (lheadings, bullet points, indentation, etc)

Ray Palmer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

IMHO (and yes, I've been a hiring manager, ssen hundreds of CVs), it's more about formatting and targetting the CV to the role / hiring-manager, than about length.

The full version of my professional CV is about 6 pages long, QUOTE]

If I got a 6 page CV from somebody I would assume they don't know how to prioritise information. If you have been working in a field a long time I don't see why you would need to repeat details for each role as they would have to overlap.

I am sure you would get a job with it but I would say you missed more interviews as a result.

Java in one job .NET in another, agile one place waterfall in another. I would have that in the section about experience not under a separate part for the companies. Easy to read and not lost on page 4.

Mrs OBumble

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Java in one job .NET in another, agile one place waterfall in another. I would have that in the section about experience not under a separate part for the companies. Easy to read and not lost on page 4.

And I would bin a CV that did that, as coming from a chancer who claims that they have expereince but is not willing to demonstrate where and how they got that expereince. When I was younger and greener, I was willing to believe people's claims, then I had a manager who taught me how to critically assess CVs - oftem what they don't say is more imprtant than what's on paper.

I shortlist on cover letters or emails, which should clearly say why the candidate is a match for this job. Then I go into more depth with CVs of the shortlisted ones, making sure they they are telling a consistent story.

srsly78

Mrs Bumble CVs are very different in IT. It's just loads of technical jargon... This leads to lots of confusion, most recruiters don't have a clue what any of the stuff means. Try explaining to them that javascript and java are completely different!

You can tell they don't even look at CVs anyway, I have a big note at the top of mine saying "do not contact about permanent roles" and yet they ring me everyday wasting my time.

kippy

12 years in IT, worked for 7 different organisations in dirverse roles, 4 different third level qualifications, multiple professional certifications, 2 pages of a CV.
It should be doable.

Ray Palmer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And I would bin a CV that did that, as coming from a chancer who claims that they have expereince but is not willing to demonstrate where and how they got that expereince. When I was younger and greener, I was willing to believe people's claims, then I had a manager who taught me how to critically assess CVs - oftem what they don't say is more imprtant than what's on paper.

I shortlist on cover letters or emails, which should clearly say why the candidate is a match for this job. Then I go into more depth with CVs of the shortlisted ones, making sure they they are telling a consistent story.

No much taught if your critical assessment of a CV means you would throw out a concise CV. A CV cannot demonstrate anything it is informational. Adding pages and pages of information does not make anybody's claims more likely just a long winded.

As cover letters are often discarded when the CV is being looked at there isn't much point in adding information not on your CV. All a cover letter should do is point out relevant details in your CV.

Nothing worse than reading 3-4 different description of essentially the same role in different companies. It tells you nothing more.

After 17 + years experience and 7+ contracting my CV would be massive if I was to say exactly where I did everything and I would be repeating myself over and over again. If no extra information is being provided it is pointless.

There are people out there who are suspicious and want these uber long CVs. From my experience you don't want to work with somebody with such lack of understanding of IT. Maybe it is different for non-IT roles.

Working as a contractor I have dealt with a lot of HR and recruitment agencies and they certainly point out it should only be two pages long.

The format on an IT CV is to have your experience of methodologies, tool, languages etc... in a table on the first page. Been like that for about 5 years as the preferred format. Without reading the entire first page you will know experience and abilities.

Much better than having to read through pages of information to find out a persons experience.

Maybe if you are going for a CEO of a large company a long CV is acceptable. Of don't OBumble is at that level.

Mrs OBumble

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Maybe if you are going for a CEO of a large company a long CV is acceptable.

If you're going for CEO of a large company, your CV is totally irrelevant. :rolleyes:

You will be considered, or not, based on who you know, what you put on paper.

IT contracting is a little different, in that managers are only looking for skills and not at the whole package you bring to the role.

But for any kind of employee (including IT ones), a manager is also looking to see whether a person is likely to grow with the role - and the best indicator of this is if they have done so in the past. If they've had years and years of doing essentially the same job in different places, and cannot say anything unique about each one, then I would not see that in a good light at all.

Adrock-aka

2 pages max. All a CV needs to do is grab attention and do enough to put you in the interview pile. It's more of an invitation to treat, than a comprehensive archive.

keeponhurling

You know the way there is normally an "Achievements" section?

Does putting stuff like "employee of the month", "captain of xxx football team" etc. impress employers, or do they think stuff like that is just irrelevant waffle ?

Columbia

2 pages is plenty for most people.

keeponhurling wrote: »

You know the way there is normally an "Achievements" section?

Does putting stuff like "employee of the month", "captain of xxx football team" etc. impress employers, or do they think stuff like that is just irrelevant waffle ?

"Employee of the month" sounds a little juvenile to me. Mention that your "contribution was recognised" without going into specifics. Captaining the football team is a tricky one, if the role involves leadership and you don't have management experience, it's probably good to include.

I once saw an 18-page CV, much of which was spent listing social events that the person had been invited to 3-6 years prior. He even gave details of a funeral he had attended circa 2005.

keeponhurling

Columbia wrote: »

2 pages is plenty for most people.



"Employee of the month" sounds a little juvenile to me. Mention that your "contribution was recognised" without going into specifics. Captaining the football team is a tricky one, if the role involves leadership and you don't have management experience, it's probably good to include.

I once saw an 18-page CV, much of which was spent listing social events that the person had been invited to 3-6 years prior. He even gave details of a funeral he had attended circa 2005.

My goodness, mentioning funerals they attended? Strange. 18-page CV even stranger..

"contribution was recognised" isn't great either though, that could mean your boss said well done, or even mean you were recognised by being paid at the end of the month!

Employee of the Month could well be just rotated around the staff, so fairly meaningless

Ray Palmer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If you're going for CEO of a large company, your CV is totally irrelevant. :rolleyes:

You will be considered, or not, based on who you know, what you put on paper.

IT contracting is a little different, in that managers are only looking for skills and not at the whole package you bring to the role.

But for any kind of employee (including IT ones), a manager is also looking to see whether a person is likely to grow with the role - and the best indicator of this is if they have done so in the past. If they've had years and years of doing essentially the same job in different places, and cannot say anything unique about each one, then I would not see that in a good light at all.

I am pretty sure you are explaining how you would do it so being honest from that point of view. The problem is what you are describing is very old school and generally seen as a waste of time now. Given you posted elsewhere incorrectly on Irish employment law I hope/doubt you are not in charge of recruitment for any position now.

IT contracting does not mean a different CV, companies and agencies often try to push me to take permanent roles.

It is really simple you get 40 cvs and they were 6 pages each that is 240 pages to read versus 80 if they are two pages long. I know which I would prefer to do and I also know I am not going route through somebody's cv to find out the relevant information.

Using what one manager taught you as your constant gauge on recruitment is not a balanced view or even an expert view to start with. What you have described is a very old mentality and you should get with how it is done in the current market.

heroics

I agree with most of the comments above. I am also in IT and have had various roles over the last 12 years. Including the various technologies/experience/certs etc my CV is never more than 2 pages long and I generally tailor it towards the role I am applying for.

I have also been involved in the hiring process and I much preferred a concise CV which listed the persons skills clearly rather than having to root them out of each job description spanning 4 pages. To be honest I generally just skim read past the first 2 pages of a CV anyway as my mind will normally be made up by then whether they should be called for an interview or not.

April O Neill

SBWife wrote: »

No you don't, you just can't make a decision about what is important and what isn't.

Well, I've been getting an above average amount of interviews off my 2 page CV in my current job search, so I'm happy with its length.

cerilla

I can assure you all that your CV should never ever ever exceed 2 pages. Your CV is a tool that you use to entice the employer to invite for you an interview. You should keep it concise and to the point.

wallycharlo

cerilla wrote: »

I can assure you all that your CV should never ever ever exceed 2 pages. Your CV is a tool that you use to entice the employer to invite for you an interview. You should keep it concise and to the point.

As a hiring manager I would agree completely with this, certainly keep it to 2 pages.

Your most relevant recent industrial experience should jump off the top of the first page, and the CV should then work backwards chronologically, ending with where you were educated. For someone with up to 15-20 years of experience this is certainly still possible within 2 pages.

I would not bother with 'employee of the month' , 'achievement lists' or hobbies to be honest, as most hiring managers will not even get as far as reading this, as they will most likely nearly always take the decision on the next steps (i.e. face-to-face, etc) based on the first half of the first page of your CV in any case, i.e. relevant recent experience.

skimpydoo

My C.V. is 2 and a half pages long. It would have been longer but I have a link to my linkedin profile on it which goes into more detail. For example when I did my Post Grad Diploma in Cloud Computing last year, I did not go into detail about course on my C.V. as I had done that on linkedin. Hope this helps.

wallycharlo

Ronan Leonard wrote: »

...I have a link to my linkedin profile on it which goes into more detail...

This is a nice idea, as it keeps the CV brief, but at the same time has the scope for the employer to dive deeper into the skillset etc if he/she so desires.

OP, having a Linkedin profile is a very good idea, in case you do not have one already.

A small tip though, don't over-do the recommendations from colleagues & peers, this can very easily reek of back-scratching and hence be viewed as being insincere.

oB1

Seems like i sparked off a good thread here - Some great advice/opinions on here, will definitely be shortening my CV to at least 2 pages, right now it stands at 4, BUT it is fairly well formatted with fancy tables etc. and is well spaced out, when you look through it, its content isn't that large.

Some helpful points on what to leave in/take out as well, like "Employee of the month" which i had in mine, i won a year ago, but after putting myself in the hiring managers shoes, something about it now seems juvenile.

Also, kudos on the LinkedIn link idea, have recently added this to my CV and have noticed an influx of people now viewing my profile.

Maybe this might give an insight that what my CV currently entails:

>Starts with personal details ( name, address, phone & email contacts, and then a link to my LinkedIn) - 1st Page
>A Summary of my professional experience ( lists my most up to date experiences & skills, and explains who/what i am ( this is actually the longest bit of text with about 23 lines, and bullet points (perhaps i need to chop that :P ) - 1st Page
>Educational background (University, & Secondary School Listed Here) 2nd Page
>Working Experience, Past Jobs (I list my last 4 jobs here, perhaps i don't need too? - and have a small section on what i done at each) 2nd Page
>I then talk about my most recent position held, what i do, and what i have experience with, this goes on for all of page 3! :P :O
>Achievements ( Employee of the month, certs. i obtained along the way, health and safety etc) - Page 4
>References ( 3 of them ) -Page 4
> Signed & Dated - Page 4


As you can see, and from my boards.ie posts, i do like to talk a lot :P.. so perhaps i should consider chopping some of it.

-Rob

Ray Palmer

RobertHopkins wrote: »

Seems like i sparked off a good thread here - Some great advice/opinions on here, will definitely be shortening my CV to at least 2 pages, right now it stands at 4, BUT it is fairly well formatted with fancy tables etc. and is well spaced out, when you look through it, its content isn't that large.

Some helpful points on what to leave in/take out as well, like "Employee of the month" which i had in mine, i won a year ago, but after putting myself in the hiring managers shoes, something about it now seems juvenile.

Also, kudos on the LinkedIn link idea, have recently added this to my CV and have noticed an influx of people now viewing my profile.

Maybe this might give an insight that what my CV currently entails:

>Starts with personal details ( name, address, phone & email contacts, and then a link to my LinkedIn) - 1st Page
>A Summary of my professional experience ( lists my most up to date experiences & skills, and explains who/what i am ( this is actually the longest bit of text with about 23 lines, and bullet points (perhaps i need to chop that :P ) - 1st Page
>Educational background (University, & Secondary School Listed Here) 2nd Page
>Working Experience, Past Jobs (I list my last 4 jobs here, perhaps i don't need too? - and have a small section on what i done at each) 2nd Page
>I then talk about my most recent position held, what i do, and what i have experience with, this goes on for all of page 3! :P :O
>Achievements ( Employee of the month, certs. i obtained along the way, health and safety etc) - Page 4
>References ( 3 of them ) -Page 4
> Signed & Dated - Page 4


As you can see, and from my boards.ie posts, i do like to talk a lot :P.. so perhaps i should consider chopping some of it.

-Rob

Remove your address
Strip your profile down to about 5-10 lines
Move education to the end professional qualifications go here too.
Remove achievement unless exceptional and that doesn't include ran a marathon
Remove references
Remove Signature
Sounds like you need to make your description of jobs slimmer too.

Don't use a font less than 10 and go for 12 and go for Arial font.

oB1

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Remove your address
Strip your profile down to about 5-10 lines
Move education to the end professional qualifications go here too.
Remove achievement unless exceptional and that doesn't include ran a marathon
Remove references
Remove Signature
Sounds like you need to make your description of jobs slimmer too.

Don't use a font less than 10 and go for 12 and go for Arial font.

I wont be removing the address, nor the signature, nor the references! they are the fundamental parts of a CV IMO.

I will indeed shorten my profile, and remove some of the work history.

I will resize, and try to illuminate some of the tables etc.

SBWife

References nor signature do not belong on CV.

You only provide references in the event an offer is being made.
You sign your cover letter.

I wouldn't put the current role after previous experience, I'd start my experience with my current role and work back from there.

If you are University Educated and have less than 10 years experience school is a one line entry, after this remove it unless it's considered very special.

wallycharlo

RobertHopkins wrote: »

I wont be removing the address, nor the signature, nor the references! they are the fundamental parts of a CV IMO.

I have never come upon a signed CV, this would be abnormal.

Address should go in the delivery container which you deliver the CV in, e.g. cover letter / email.

Ray Palmer

RobertHopkins wrote: »

I wont be removing the address, nor the signature, nor the references! they are the fundamental parts of a CV IMO.

I will indeed shorten my profile, and remove some of the work history.

I will resize, and try to illuminate some of the tables etc.

Your call, I thought you were looking for advise.

References, signature and address or not fundamental. They are an indication of a novice and do not provide any information of worth. What are you basing your opinion on?

People with experience are telling you they aren't important or needed. I have never seen a signed CV before and see no value in it.

srsly78

You don't put your birthday or your address on a public document like your CV, as it could be used for identity theft purposes.

oB1

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Your call, I thought you were looking for advise.

References, signature and address or not fundamental. They are an indication of a novice and do not provide any information of worth. What are you basing your opinion on?

People with experience are telling you they aren't important or needed. I have never seen a signed CV before and see no value in it.

srsly78 wrote: »

You don't put your birthday or your address on a public document like your CV, as it could be used for identity theft purposes.

Some valid points there, in fairness.

Yes, i was looking for advice, i suppose i would still be entitled to my own opinion though; I was always told that Address, Signature & references are fundamental parts of a CV, and if i where to not include them, it would infact just be a plain document with information on it.

SBWife

Who always told you that?

Because in 20 years in business, seeing thousands of CVs, most have included address, none have included signature, and references are only included (by some people) for shop jobs, manual labour, etc.

But a 4 page CV for a minimum wage job would be even more ridiculous.

Boombastic

If you really are determined to put in references - replace what you have with 'References available on request'

Agree with others 2 pages max.

oB1

SBWife wrote: »

Who always told you that?

Because in 20 years in business, seeing thousands of CVs, most have included address, none have included signature, and references are only included (by some people) for shop jobs, manual labour, etc.

But a 4 page CV for a minimum wage job would be even more ridiculous.

Various sources throughout my proffesional career, from fellow colleauges in the recruitment industry, to proffesors in college, it's something that has just always followed me throughou my career.

Something i have learnt from this though, everyone seems to have there own opinion on what is right, and what is wrong to include in a CV, and i think all are vaild points, each to there own.

Ray Palmer

Address was essential about 10 years ago. No need now as you tend to be contacted by mobile phone or e-mail. The purpose of the address was to contact you. Not many companies contact through the post now and don't bother if you have e-mail.

You are entitled to your opinion but if you look back you will see the differing opinions are coming from older methodologies. If you are going for a modern job you want to appear modern not antiquated and behind the times.

Date of birth is gone mostly as it is one of the grounds of discrimination so should not be included.

Tar.Aldarion

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Address was essential about 10 years ago. No need now as you tend to be contacted by mobile phone or e-mail. The purpose of the address was to contact you. Not many companies contact through the post now and don't bother if you have e-mail.

You are entitled to your opinion but if you look back you will see the differing opinions are coming from older methodologies. If you paid are going for a modern job you want to appear modern not antiquated and behind the times.

Date of birth is gone mostly as it is one of the grounds of discrimination so should not be included.

I put address so they don't have to come asking when they need it, contract etc. It's only one line. It's certainly not essential all right,


Anything over 2 pages, for anybody, is madness.

srsly78

I put year of birth rather than date of birth on mine. Discrimination is alive and well, grey hair helps when doing consultancy. No picture tho, like they seem to do on the continent!!

wallycharlo

I don't think I've ever seen DOB on a CV which I've been sent.

You can of course (usually) work it out pretty easily using graduation date.

OP, whatever about including your address and the references, signing a CV is certainly not the done thing, and will raise eyebrows.

Mrs OBumble

If I received a CV without a street address, I would assume that you are not currently living in the country. And unless you had some mighty speciail skills, I wouldn't consider you for the job because of that.


But as I said a lot earlier in the thread, the real answer is that it depends on what the person getting the CV needs.

For some temporary low wage jobs, any more than one page is overkill.
For some professional jobs, a larger number of (well formatted) pages is totally appropriate.
For some jobs where you need to show your creative abilities, any paper is a waste of space: you need to do a DVD, website, whatever.
For jobs where the hriing manager is a borderline hyperactive stress-puppy, and cannot sit still for long enough to skim read three pages, then three pages is too long.
For jobs where the hiring manager wants to be convinced that you can do the job and that you will make a solid contribution to the company over a period of time, then a couple more pages might be a good idea.
For short term contracts requiring a very specific skill set, then 1.5 pages that are closely matched to the requirement is probably perfect.
For jobs where the initial screening will be done by the HR-computer, not a person, then a keyword rich CV is probably best not matter how many pages it takes.

Etc.

It all depends on the comapny and the situation. There is NO right answer, you just ahve to make the best judgements given what you know.

oB1

wallycharlo wrote: »

I don't think I've ever seen DOB on a CV which I've been sent.

You can of course (usually) work it out pretty easily using graduation date.

OP, whatever about including your address and the references, signing a CV is certainly not the done thing, and will raise eyebrows.

Why, in your opinion, would signing the CV. Raise eye brows?.. You sign it, like you sign any official document.

wallycharlo

RobertHopkins wrote: »

Why, in your opinion, would signing the CV. Raise eye brows?.. You sign it, like you sign any official document.

It would just strike me as a very odd thing to do. I've encountered many CVs, and not one has ever contained a signature. I don't think that it woud go against you in any way, but it would not be the done thing.

Ray Palmer

RobertHopkins wrote: »

Why, in your opinion, would signing the CV. Raise eye brows?.. You sign it, like you sign any official document.

It really is a strange thing to do. Never ever saw a signed CV. It isn't an official document.

If so many people are telling you it is weird why don't you believe them?

oB1

wrote:

If so many people are telling you it is weird why don't you believe them?

i dont recall "so many people telling me" again, i think this all comes down to a matter of opinion in this case.

oB1

wallycharlo wrote: »

It would just strike me as a very odd thing to do. I've encountered many CVs, and not one has ever contained a signature. I don't think that it woud go against you in any way, but it would not be the done thing.

Yeah, i suppose, again, it's what i was thought to do from the start, so it's something i have always carried on doing.

SBWife

RobertHopkins wrote: »

Yeah, i suppose, again, it's what i was thought to do from the start, so it's something i have always carried on doing.

So you just dreamed up the signature idea all by yourself, it's very original, I've just surveyed around and between 3 of us we've seen at least 15,000 CVs and never seen that. I seen CVs on purple paper, CVs which included community games medals and JR cert results but not a signature among the lot of them. Guess I've never seen your CV.

oB1

SBWife wrote: »

So you just dreamed up the signature idea all by yourself, it's very original, I've just surveyed around and between 3 of us we've seen at least 15,000 CVs and never seen that. I seen CVs on purple paper, CVs which included community games medals and JR cert results but not a signature among the lot of them. Guess I've never seen your CV.

No need to be a dick about it? - this is an open-style forum, where we "discuss" such topics like civilized human beings.

You're coming across like "I am right and you are wrong" where in fact, neither of us are right nor wrong, everyone is entitled to there own opinion.