Is it in the wheels or in the legs?

colm_gti

You see it all the time, threads popping up asking what wheels to buy, and I admit, I am guilty of the odd one myself!

But over the past few weeks of racing, I've been looking closer at some lads bikes and the equipment they're using and it's opened my eyes.

Now, I'm not going to be like Mr. Lebowski and argue over lads buying top of the range bikes and thinking they're Contador on a club spin etc., but, I'm just wondering if better parts are a necessity as you move up the ranks in racing.

I raced last year at A4 and a lot of this year at A3 on mavic aksiums, and I definitely don't think they were the limiting factor in my riding. I had a brief fling with deep section tubs, and loved how they rode, but they didn't win me any races. Now, my aksiums are feic'd and my tubs are sold, and I'm left with a solid set of training wheels built on 105 hubs, but they're heavy....very heavy! I felt like I was cycling through wet mud on them when I took them out for the first time last night. This is grand for training, but with the Nenagh Classic at the weekend, I'm wondering if I should pick up another set of aksiums....or splash out on something fancier? Bear in mind I have ordered hubs and rims to have a relatively fancier set of wheels built up, but they haven't arrived and I could do with something half decent for the weekend...

There are lads consistently in the top 10 riding aksiums, khamsins, dt swiss rr1850's and other entry level wheelsets, which has me thinking I should just buy the same and not worry about them, but when there are so many threads saying wheels are the single biggest difference you can make to your bike then maybe I should go a step up to ksyriums....going in circles.

So what do the experts think, entry level wheels and train harder (leave the fancy wheels til you get to A2), or fancy wheels?

mloc123

Train more. In a group race wheels make no odds.

The only benefit to deep section wheels are as a placebo IMO.

TTs are different of course, 30 seconds over 40km is a decent chunk.

AstraMonti

Ofc it's about the legs. Take Mr. Grieves for example, starting racing last year with a POS heavy bike (sorry <snip> ) and kicked everyone's butt with ease. The bling is there to make us happy. Unless you are competing in the higher level where every millisecond counts, your new wheels, frame etc won't matter a bit. And that comes from a guy who really appreciates bling on bikes.

ednwireland

just buy the bling ffs

ford2600

28mm tyres at about 80 psi apparently....

RobFowl

Deep section wheels make a nice whooshing sound

Seaneh

All deep section rims did for me was point out how absolutely horrendously inconsistent my peddling is when I used them for a spin not too long ago .

Chips Lovell

Equipment only plays a very small part in things. I know a lad who, before he got himself a new bike, was getting up in open races on an old steel bike with downtube shifters.

Slo_Rida

Wheels are not the biggest factor...tyres are. The riders body is the biggest resistance in cycling, next it's your contact with the road. So...when you are drafting in a group as we are most of the time, your body is less of a problem and the road resistance becomes a bigger elemant of your resistance. So my advice is buy whatever wheels you can afford but splash out on the best tyres and tubes available. I mean a big splash.
This is not based on reading every cycling magazine or forum website going (as many posters do), it's based on my experience of different standards of tyres and wheels.
I had 3 training spins with aero wheels recently (first time ever on a bike with aero wheels) and thought I noticed a slight improvement when I was on my own in the wind or at high speed BUT such was the difference, I would not pay an extra cent for aero rims in open races.

In conclusion...the best tyres and tubes available AND the bling-est wheels you wallet allows.

MrCreosote

mloc123 wrote: »

The only benefit to deep section wheels are as a placebo IMO.

Nothing wrong with a bit of placebo. It still means you get a benefit!

Slo_Rida

MrCreosote wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a bit of placebo. It still means you get a benefit!

At the cost of the extra weight+euros=no benefit!

Zyzz

Its all about the leg hair IMO.

ashleey

The biggest issue with aero wheels is cross winds. If you are comfortable with handling then fine but speed wobbles due to wind from gaps in the hedges is frequent.

Harrybelafonte

Yes and no. I do think there's a need for stiffness in wheels, feeling your wheel rub your brakes everytime you're pop out of the saddle can destroy your mind. I guess it's like most things, after a certain point the cost of the wheels relative to the improvement in weight etc starts to diminish or is that increase, not sure, but you get my point.

Lumen

Even if wheels or whatever did make you faster, what would be the point? Imagine you had an undetectable Gruber Assist in your bottom bracket which enabled you to compete at A1 level. Would that be satisfying?

The fun of amateur racing is in exploring the limit of one's own ability. Equipment is fortunately irrelevant to that aspect.

But as AstraMonti says, nice stuff is nice. Just because something is objectively pointless doesn't make it subjectively worthless.

mloc123

MrCreosote wrote: »

Nothing wrong with a bit of placebo. It still means you get a benefit!

Never said there was

I have owned multiple sets of wheels at this stage

Keep_Her_Lit

AstraMonti wrote: »

Take Mr. Grieves for example, starting racing last year with a POS heavy bike (sorry <snip> ) and kicked everyone's butt with ease.

Mr. Grieves has now secured an upgrade to A1 and will be competing in this year's Rás. Meteoric or what?!

Wish him well if he pops back in here between now and the start (19th May).

CaoimH_in

Richard Hooton came second at the weekend on an Aluminium Trek, with basic Cosmics (not SLs.. the 30mm or so ones). Another fella was second to Damien Shaw in Balbriggin on a Giant Defy Alu w/ blank wheels.

It's in the legs.

fat bloke

Of course it's the jaysus legs! Christ if we gave you a euro for every wheels thread you stayed Colm you'd the price of a set of Zipps by now!

Legs generate watts, wheels do not.

Thing is. You can't buy new legs but you could feasibly see a weight saving of almost a kilo (!!!) between a budget set of wheels and a posh set. Anyone's legs would see a benefit there.

The Big Lebowsky

Winning road races has very little to do with ones leg strength....I can lift twice as much weight with the leg press machine at the gym, than those elite level riders can.

The secret to cycling performance is having big lungs to take in plenty of oxygen...and having a strong heart to pump all that oxygenated blood to ones hard working legs. It also helps to have plenty of slow twitch muscle fiber in yer legs...:pac:

Are you a better sprinter or distance runner? Many people believe that having more fast and slow twitch muscle fibers may determine what sports athletes excel at and how they respond to training. Skeletal muscle is made up of bundles of individual muscle fibers called myocytes. Each myocyte contains many myofibrils, which are strands of proteins (actin and myosin) that can grab on to each other and pull. This shortens the muscle and causes muscle contraction.
It is generally accepted that muscle fiber types can be broken down into two main types: slow twitch (Type I) muscle fibers and fast twitch (Type II) muscle fibers. Fast twitch fibers can be further categorized into Type IIa and Type IIb fibers.
These distinctions seem to influence how muscles respond to training and physical activity, and each fiber type is unique in its ability to contract in a certain way. Human muscles contain a genetically determined mixture of both slow and fast fiber types. On average, we have about 50 percent slow twitch and 50 percent fast twitch fibers in most of the muscles used for movement.

Slow Twitch (Type I)
The slow muscles are more efficient at using oxygen to generate more fuel (known as ATP) for continuous, extended muscle contractions over a long time. They fire more slowly than fast twitch fibers and can go for a long time before they fatigue. Therefore, slow twitch fibers are great at helping athletes run marathons and bicycle for hours.

IM0

fat bloke wrote: »

Legs generate watts, wheels do not.

but you need less watts to generate said speed :pac:

Lumen

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

The secret to cycling performance is having big lungs to take in plenty of oxygen

Not true.

http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/posts/2013/4/10/busting-the-big-lungs-myth.html

The Big Lebowsky

IM0 wrote: »

but you need less watts to generate said speed :pac:

But the aero wheels actually save you watts over 24mph.....The energy saved can be used later in the race...

Under 24mph aero wheels are of little benefit...but they still look good:pac:

fat bloke

IM0 wrote: »

but you need less watts to generate said speed :pac:

But nothing. No legs = no watts, regardless of what wheels you have.

Of course AFTER the legs, how you transmit those watts to the road for forward momentum through equipment or aerodynamics or wheels or whatever also makes a difference yes. But if you really think wheels are more important than legs, I'll see you at the startline. -You can have the carbon tubs, I'll have the alexrims...


but you're not allowed use your legs:p

Lumen

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

But the aero wheels actually save you watts over 24mph.....The energy saved can be used later in the race...

Under 24mph aero wheels are of little benefit...but they still look good:pac

There isn't anything special about 24mph.

3102derek

It's all down to how loud of "Woosh" your wheelset makes.

longshank

Lumen wrote: »

Not true.

http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/posts/2013/4/10/busting-the-big-lungs-myth.html

you beat me to it.

colm_gti

Obviously it's in the legs, I was just thinking aloud and trying to justify the purchase of expensive (to me right now) wheels or bottom of the line ones to race on for the weekend, while I wait for the parts to arrive to get the ones I really want built up :rolleyes:

A few kind souls have offered to loan me wheels for the weekend, go raibh míle maith agaibh!

AstraMonti

You really won't find a proper justification for bling stuff. You just want them because they are nice, accept it and your life will be happier and your wallet lighter

BRV

just back to posting here, got an urge to start posting again. that north down lad who came second to shaw was on a bike most top class amateur riders would call scrap. shaw beat him head over heels but that fella is only racing 3 years. getting a good position will benefit you way more than a good set of wheels.

mistermatthew

Race on the wheels you have this weekend sure. U have those hand builts coming soon. Seems a waste to buy a set for one run.

The Big Lebowsky

I remember a young dude riding an old rusty ten speed racer showed up at a club run, he was wearing a tee shirt, grubby running shoes and old wool shorts ...He hammered each and everyone of us into the road, including a county time trial champion...It was a very humbling experiance...

We never did see that guy again...he just vanished...To tell the truth we were all quietly relieved he never showed up on subsequent training spins.

One can only imagine the engine this fella had...

You can't buy natural ability.....:pac:

c50

ryan mullen ringing bells. think it was when he was u16 at nat champs beating the pack with a good stride on an old quite scrappy looking steel frame. something to laugh and admire in that, raw talent there

The Big Lebowsky

Na this happened in the Uk twenty years ago....never did see the like of it before or since....

c50

didnt mean to even relate to your story, just mean riniging bells for myself. hes still as a cyclist with a big future

The Big Lebowsky

Stephen Spratt had more natural ability than Roche and Kelly put together, but he didn't have the dedication to train day after day...after day...like Kelly and Roche did...

Ive seen many wunder kids come and go over the years....but it takes someone really special to handle the level of training thats required to become a pro-tour rider.

c50

seems to be coping well against big guns in the ranks with sigma sport in uk as it stands. many had better talent than pros of their time who made it but they fell short for one reason or another..cough cough drugged to the eyeballs. mark scanlon, junior WC. then made to the pro ranks and fell apart. that was only because he was "home sick" however not that he wasnt willing to do one thing or another

daragh_

These threads are all about enabling Mr Gti's kit buying habit.

I refuse to take part.

And for the record he handed everyone's ass to them on a plate last night riding some oul wheels he 'found in a shed'.

lennymc

daragh_ wrote: »

These threads are all about enabling Mr Gti's kit buying habit.

I refuse to take part.

And for the record he handed everyone's ass to them on a plate last night riding some oul wheels he 'found in a shed'.

im convinced mr gti just loves buying stuff. Things could be anything from cars to bike parts. As long as its something, and he can buy it, hes happy.

I reckon you should buy some deep carbon tubs

doozerie

If money were no object I'd love to try a set of Enve carbon deep-section wheels. I do expect that they would cost me less effort/power to push, but would it make any real difference? Not to me. If my average power output were 50watts (hey, I'm little, okay!), and by some freak of science these wheels effectively "gave" me an extra 25W, then with my massive jump to 75W I'd still be dropped in the first few metres of a race. On the other hand, if your average output was 400W and you were surrounded by similarly freakish individuals of the same calibre, then that comparatively small increase of 25W might make the difference between winning and losing the race.

In the real world, even the most expensive set of wheels probably won't "save" you a substantial amount of power, but in the right circumstances the little they do save you might give you enough of an edge to win. That's a lot of if's and but's upon which to base a significant investment of your cash though, but then again if you want a set of wheels and can afford them, then why not.

As an aside, for years I've been hearing the mantra that a decent set of wheels will make the single biggest difference to your bike, and I never questioned that as it made sense to me. I do question it these days though, these days I think a proper bike fit is perhaps the single most worthwhile investment, but that view is biased by the fact that I had a poor position on my bike before my bike fit so while the fit returned my investment in spades that wouldn't be the case for everyone.

letape

The Big Lebowsky wrote: »

I remember a young dude riding an old rusty ten speed racer showed up at a club run, he was wearing a tee shirt, grubby running shoes and old wool shorts ...He hammered each and everyone of us into the road, including a county time trial champion...It was a very humbling experiance...

We never did see that guy again...he just vanished...To tell the truth we were all quietly relieved he never showed up on subsequent training spins.

One can only imagine the engine this fella had...

You can't buy natural ability.....:pac:

Someone on here told that story yesterday!

Vino Veritas

It is definitely in the legs,
Looking at the A1/A2 race in Donore yesterday and there are a lot of very standard wheels amongst the bling, and an A1 got a prize on Saturday on a steel bike with very ordinary looking wheels.

mp31

It's all in the mind!

Last Friday morning commute... a fellow Strava member breezes past me (and waves hi) on the N4 just after the Palmerstown lights. I hadn't seen him for a while so I bust a gut and *just* about managed to catch him at the start of the Chapelizod bypass. He slowed down a little and we chatted on the rest of the way into Dublin and to my amazement I kept up with his pace and didn't feel a thing.

This morning... same commute but on my own and Strava tells me that I did the same segment 23sec slower even with a higher tailwind (just goes to show how cr*p I am at the cycling lark)

As rule no. 6 quite rightly points out..."You're mind is your worst enemy."

joxerjohn

Lots of stuff about the extra benefits of saving weight on wheels being equivalent to saving weight on the frame (or yourself) squared due to effects of rotational velocity or angular momentum. It is hard to tell exactly without a good calculator. This may be true in particular for climbing but not so on the flat where the fashion seems to be for slightly heavier aero wheels these days.

I was advised that for a racing set-up one should consider at least Mavic Kyseium or better. Where it come in I think in racing is where an attack goes in on a short climb or steep incline, if you miss it or are slower to respond due to your heavier wheelset and lose the wheel in front then you can be dropped.

In the end though betwen the frame, the fork and the "fecker" on the bike it's the latter that makes the most difference as they say !

A nice loud clinking noise from the freewheel is also good for intimidating opponents and should be considered as well when making your wheel choice.

Peterx

After believing with all the fervour of a born again Christian in the 'better wheels=single best upgrade' theory for many years this newer theory about wider tyres and lower pressures has truly upset my worldview.
(and possibly saved me hundreds of euro on an upgrade! )

petethedrummer

joxerjohn wrote: »

A nice loud clinking noise from the freewheel is also good for intimidating opponents and should be considered as well when making your wheel choice.

With shimano hubs, noone can hear you wheelsuck.

lennymc

get a power meter.