The POC incident, POCgate, the POC ultimatum, aPOCalypse now [WARNING IN 1st POST]

.ak

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Rightwing

I heard paulie on the local radio today 'I had no case to answer'

Sums it, storm in a tea-cup.

opinionatedfan

Of course he would say that, you can tell by his reaction on the field he was worried what might happen.

That wasn’t careless, it was plain dangerous, and avoidable, and it had serious consequences which could have been much worse. If you can’t send players off for that, how can you claim to have player welfare at the top of your agenda?

achtungbarry

Well Effin Eddie wasn't impressed......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7SyDhZlV8Y

totallegend

Brendan Fanning summed it up very well:
http://brendanfanningrugby.wordpress.com/?p=692&preview=true

Rob Penney's comments were very disappointing I thought:

"You slow things down and you look in real detail and they always look worse -- numerous incidents, if you take them in isolation. This is one of those ones where there is nothing really to be concerned about."

A guy gets stretchered off concussed, his season is pretty much ended, and it's nothing to be concerned about? I know he has to defend his own player but to blithely brush off Kearney's injury like that grated with me, I have to say.

And that's what annoys me so much. If it was Dave Kearney who had kicked Paul O'Connell into unconsciousness, we'd have seen a very different outcome, but because it was the legend kicking the nobody, everyone decided to brush it under the carpet.

danthefan

Has left a sour taste this one. Schmidt was interviewed on TV3 about it, he's basically furious. Considering he's in the running for the Ireland job I was surprised how far he went but he obviously feels quite strongly on the issue.

That's the message anyway, you can boot someone in the head causing a hospital stay and a few weeks out injured and there are absolutely no repercussions.

4th serious incident of foul play committed by Munster against Leinster in recent seasons, previous offenders being Quinlan, Hayes and Mafi, who accrued 25 weeks of bans between them I think it was.

ThisRegard

Rightwing wrote: »

I heard paulie on the local radio today 'I had no case to answer'

Sums it, storm in a tea-cup.

That's the emotive issue isn't it. I don't think any real fan would say it was on purpose, but it was wreckless and careless play and even though I'm enjoying his come back immensely I think he got away with things lightly.

.ak

totallegend wrote: »

Brendan Fanning summed it up very well:
http://brendanfanningrugby.wordpress.com/?p=692&preview=true

Rob Penney's comments were very disappointing I thought:

A guy gets stretchered off concussed, his season is pretty much ended, and it's nothing to be concerned about? I know he has to defend his own player but to blithely brush off Kearney's injury like that grated with me, I have to say.

And that's what annoys me so much. If it was Dave Kearney who had kicked Paul O'Connell into unconsciousness, we'd have seen a very different outcome, but because it was the legend kicking the nobody, everyone decided to brush it under the carpet.

In fairness, his own coach isn't going to fuel the fire.

.ak

danthefan wrote: »

Has left a sour taste this one. Schmidt was interviewed on TV3 about it, he's basically furious. Considering he's in the running for the Ireland job I was surprised how far he went but he obviously feels quite strongly on the issue.

That's the message anyway, you can boot someone in the head causing a hospital stay and a few weeks out injured and there are absolutely no repercussions.

4th serious incident of foul play committed by Munster against Leinster in recent seasons, previous offenders being Quinlan, Hayes and Mafi, who accrued 25 weeks of bans between them I think it was.

I was thinking about this earlier... Has Schmidt damaged his credibility with the IRFU for the head coach roll? My opinion is no. He's standing up for his player and is pretty much the only voice that can, and has. That's a huge character endorsement.

Also, bit unfair to paint the picture that only Munster commit foul play in these fixtures. Leinster are no better. It's a niggily game and you'd expect it though, so I'm not really concerned. However, the least you can ask is for the citing commissioner to do his job.

Rightwing

.ak wrote: »

In fairness, his own coach isn't going to fuel the fire.

Well that's very true, it would have been extremely stupid of Penney to say anything else.

I do agree with Penney though, when these things are slowed down they look way worse, bit like Quinny losing his Lions place in 09.

danthefan

.ak wrote: »

I was thinking about this earlier... Has Schmidt damaged his credibility with the IRFU for the head coach roll? My opinion is no. He's standing up for his player and is pretty much the only voice that can, and has. That's a huge character endorsement.

Also, bit unfair to paint the picture that only Munster commit foul play in these fixtures. Leinster are no better. It's a niggily game and you'd expect it though, so I'm not really concerned. However, the least you can ask is for the citing commissioner to do his job.

It's the IRFU's loss more so than Schmidt's if they don't give him the job, he's the outstanding candidate.

And 25 weeks of bans plus a kick to the head against no bans suggests Leinster are a bit better.

Podge_irl

I'm just baffled that people think being careless when kicking near someone's head is acceptable. Of course he didn't do it on purpose, but being so reckless is worthy of censure.

I would think that about 90% of people who tip tackle opponents don't do it on purpose, however the lack of care they show towards the other player is what gets them red carded and banned. This is no different.

I think both Fanning and Schmidt have discussed the issue more eloquently than I can. I'll simply say that I think the outcome would have been a lot different had it not been Paul O'Connell kicking the head of Dave Kearney.

locum-motion

My tuppence worth:

PO'C did not intend to cause any injury

but

What he did was very dangerous, and did in fact cause an injury

All players have a duty of care to those around them. In fact, strike that; all people have a duty of care to those around them.

PO'C's kick was extremely careless.

IMO, he should have been cited for it. He should have received a 'low end' ban, which should then have been cut in half for lack of intent/good previous disciplinary record.


DK was absolutely blameless, and he was in fact acting exactly the way a player should*, by placing the ball back towards his own side.

* On the other thread, there was a poster giving out about DK, saying things like "Well, he won't do that again!" This poster appears to be unaware of the laws of the game.



Declaration: I was born and brought up in Leinster to a local father and a Munster mother, and I currently live in Munster. I support all of the Irish teams and London Irish too, but when they're playing against each other, Leinster have my number 1 loyalty. I want to see Munster win the H Cup again, and I realise that if PO'C had been banned, it would have been a severe blow to the chances of that happening. Still, for the credibilty of the game, he should have been cited.

awec

I am a little uneasy with the outcome of this. In my personal opinion he is an incredibly fortunate man.

I cannot fathom any reason why that was deemed not worthy of a citing.

Has a precedent been set here?

totallegend

Rightwing wrote: »

Well that's very true, it would have been extremely stupid of Penney to say anything else.

I do agree with Penney though, when these things are slowed down they look way worse, bit like Quinny losing his Lions place in 09.

Oh dear god.

Rightwing

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm just baffled that people think being careless when kicking near someone's head is acceptable. Of course he didn't do it on purpose, but being so reckless is worthy of censure.

I would think that about 90% of people who tip tackle opponents don't do it on purpose, however the lack of care they show towards the other player is what gets them red carded and banned. This is no different.

I think both Fanning and Schmidt have discussed the issue more eloquently than I can. I'll simply say that I think the outcome would have been a lot different had it not been Paul O'Connell kicking the head of Dave Kearney.

Have you a link to what Schmidt said?

Podge_irl

Rightwing wrote: »

I do agree with Penney though, when these things are slowed down they look way worse, bit like Quinny losing his Lions place in 09.

I actually think POC's incident was worse than Quinlan's as POC could see clearly what he was doing.

Nonetheless the Quinlan incident received a ban, just like Jennings and several other players who accidently made contact with the eye area. That is was an accident wasn't enough for them to avoid censure.

ThisRegard

Rightwing wrote: »

I do agree with Penney though, when these things are slowed down they look way worse, bit like Quinny losing his Lions place in 09.

Can't really understand the slo mo thing, he was knocked unconscious and had his season ruined as a result either way. Seeing the kick at normal speed appears worse to me.

Podge_irl

Rightwing wrote: »

Have you a link to what Schmidt said?

http://www.tv3.ie/sport.php

Its a couple minutes in there.

Essentially, the citing officers job is to see if an incident took place. It clearly did. Had the citing panel than decided he had no case to offer after listening to everyone's input than it would have been easier to take.

Wilberto

Being a Munster man I can honestly say, POC had to be cited for that.

Fair enough, I genuinely believe that their was not malice/intent etc. but it was just purely wreckless.

"You slow things down and you look in real detail and they always look worse -- numerous incidents, if you take them in isolation. This is one of those ones where there is nothing really to be concerned about." - Rob Penney

Yes Rob, I agree s that some incidents look a lot worse in slow motion. However, this was not one of those instances. It arguably looked worse in real time because it allowed you to see the full force that was actually in the kick.


That said, however, I am extremely relieved and delighted that he didn't get cited for it, of course. I also think this is another case of a players reputation preceding them - only this time in a positive sense (i.e. POC has a fairly impressive disciplinary record).

Rightwing

ThisRegard wrote: »

Can't really understand the slo mo thing, he was knocked unconscious and had his season ruined as a result either way. Seeing the kick at normal speed appears worse to me.

When you slow it down it looks more deliberate. That's my understanding of it anyway.

.ak

Schmidt's comments at the Press Conference.

danthefan

Penney saying "there's nothing to be concerned about" is a bit of a joke.

How about the guy who ended up in hospital eh Rob?

totallegend

The funny thing is, the same citing commissioner had done the Toulon v Leicester game the previous week and had recommended a citing for Bakkies Botha for this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAPiUeXJqkg

Can you see the citable offence? Here's a clue, it's 25 seconds in and a clearer angle at 1.12. Still can't see it? Me neither.

Now, the citing commissioner wanted Botha cited for that but the same (IRFU-employed) citing commissioner didn't see anything in the POC incident.

Answers on a postcard please.

errlloyd

Surprised we're not including Marcus doing damage to BOD on our list of grievances from this inter-pro. Maybe we're not counting it because its a final?

What needs to be said has probably already been said. The procedure needs to be looked at. Maybe there is a feeling among citing commissioners that every incident they recommend is going to be given a ban, maybe that makes them feel that they have a responsibility to make a judgement themselves.

If that is the case it needs to change. A citing commissioner should only be identifying incidents they believe the referee missed, they should not be passing judgement on them.

.ak

Rightwing wrote: »

When you slow it down it looks more deliberate. That's my understanding of it anyway.

Yes, but I think EVERYONE is in agreement it wasn't deliberate, so that shouldn't even be debated or considered... so Penney's comments have no merit really.

.ak

totallegend wrote: »

The funny thing is, the same citing commissioner had done the Toulon v Leicester game the previous week and had recommended a citing for Bakkies Botha for this:

Was just about to post this. Incredibly damming evidence that Walsh was under pressure not to cite.

Rightwing

Podge_irl wrote: »

http://www.tv3.ie/sport.php

Its a couple minutes in there.

Essentially, the citing officers job is to see if an incident took place. It clearly did. Had the citing panel than decided he had no case to offer after listening to everyone's input than it would have been easier to take.

Thanks Podge, he certainly piled into the citing chap, that was as damning an interview as I've ever heard. I think he over stepped it.

Podge_irl

totallegend wrote: »

The funny thing is, the same citing commissioner had done the Toulon v Leicester game the previous week and had recommended a citing for Bakkies Botha for this

You have got to be ****ing kidding me.

opinionatedfan

Rightwing wrote: »

Thanks Podge, he certainly piled into the citing chap, that was as damning an interview as I've ever heard. I think he over stepped it.

Schmidt overstepped it? :rolleyes:

Someone has to defend Kearney.

danthefan

.ak wrote: »

Was just about to post this. Incredibly damming evidence that Walsh was under pressure not to cite.

Something is most certainly rotten here.

errlloyd

I still can't work out what Bakkies did in that clip, did he knee him in the head?

Podge_irl

Rightwing wrote: »

Thanks Podge, he certainly piled into the citing chap, that was as damning an interview as I've ever heard. I think he over stepped it.

Perhaps a little bit, though he's understandably slightly upset that one of his players was quite badly injured due to what he views as a reckless incident and that the player involved does not even have to explain his actions before a panel.

I just can't believe that the actual reason given for no citing was that it was an accident. No one ever believed he kicked his head on purpose but there was zero chance of him connecting with that ball without connecting with Kearney's head. I wouldn't be surprised if half the incidents that result in bans were accidents. Carelessness is not an excuse!

danthefan

errlloyd wrote: »

I still can't work out what Bakkies did in that clip, did he knee him in the head?

Ayerza ended up with a broken collarbone unfortunately. All Botha seems to have done is carry the ball at full tilt.

errlloyd

He wanted to cite him for carrying the ball into contact?

.ak

I think the point on that as well is he wanted to cite for recklessly trampling over him too. It's almost exactly how you'd word a probable citing on POC.

Rightwing

Podge_irl wrote: »

Perhaps a little bit, though he's understandably slightly upset that one of his players was quite badly injured due to what he views as a reckless incident and that the player involved does not even have to explain his actions before a panel.

I just can't believe that the actual reason given for no citing was that it was an accident. No one ever believed he kicked his head on purpose but there was zero chance of him connecting with that ball without connecting with Kearney's head. I wouldn't be surprised if half the incidents that result in bans were accidents.

I like Schmidt, think he's a fantastic coach, and he was right to defend (not the right word) his player. Just think it was a bit OTT.

Chabals Beard

Anyone else see Jamie Cudmore's tweet.. The stir has been stirred .. Can't wait to see him clash with Munster, I have a feeling it will equally as niggly as the game last Saturday

totallegend

.ak wrote: »

Was just about to post this. Incredibly damming evidence that Walsh was under pressure not to cite.

IMO, and this is total speculation, but I think it's equally possible that Eddie Walsh didn't want to be the guy who ruled Paul O'Connell out of the HC semi-final and possibly the Lions tour and he bottled the decision on his own...

.ak

Chabals Beard wrote: »

Anyone else see Jamie Cudmore's tweet.. The stir has been stirred .. Can't wait to see him clash with Munster, I have a feeling it will equally as niggly as the game last Saturday

No, what did he say?

As an aside, apparently the incident has gone massively viral in France.

.ak

totallegend wrote: »

IMO, and this is total speculation, but I think it's equally possible that Eddie Walsh didn't want to be the guy who ruled Paul O'Connell out of the HC semi-final and possibly the Lions tour and he bottled the decision on his own...

Yeah, that's believable too I suppose. TBH we'll never know, and either way, I can't believe he used the excuse not to cite because POC had no intent of damaging the player.... Surely the EXACT same applies to Bakkies?

Rightwing

.ak wrote: »

No, what did he say?

As an aside, apparently the incident has gone massively viral in France.

A silly tweet, something like how long for a kick in the head these days.

It's on the thread that was locked.

thomond2006

I agree with Schmidt, at least request POC to explain his perspective and then accept whatever is decided from there. Let a panel decide if he has "no case to answer". This is far from a storm in a teacup, the bottom line is a player was left unconscious following the incident and there has been zero consequence for that incident.

I don't care if it's POC or Delon Armitage, there should have been a hearing at least. Then less people would complain if O'Connell was found not guilty of reckless/foul play.

Chabals Beard

.ak wrote: »

No, what did he say?

As an aside, apparently the incident has gone massively viral in France.

Something along the lines of "so a player can get away with kicking soneone in the head" , I would throw up an aul link but I am on the phone. Whatever the wording it will do nothing except increase the target on Cudmores back.

It is a pot kettle black incident also, how many times has Cudemore thrown out cheapshots INTENTIALLY.

Rightwing

Chabals Beard wrote: »

Something along the lines of "so a player can get away with kicking soneone in the head" , I would throw up an aul link but I am on the phone. Whatever the wording it will do nothing except increase the target on Cudmores back.

It is a pot kettle black incident also, how many times has Cudemore thrown out cheapshots INTENTIALLY.

I remember Paulie punching the sh*t out of him a few years back

yimrsg

Cockerill was livid with about the tackle by Ayerza not getting looked at despite it looking rather inoccuous.

We are bitterly disappointed that the inconsistency at ERC disciplinary level yet again fails to deal with what is in my opinion an act of foulplay

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22105632

Citing in rugby is becoming a joke with inconsistencies rampant throughout many competitions, recently Nonu hit Weepu with a shoulder and got nothing initially, (Ali Williams had to get Walsh to look at it again using the TMO who eventually decided it was worthy of a yellow but no ban) whilst a genuine attempt at a tackle by Moala in the same game gets a yellow card immediately and a week off (Walsh even hinted it was potentially a red card "its one or the other" when dishing out the yellow card).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NctcFYO0yQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF5-1Q23ohY

Chabals Beard

Rightwing wrote: »

I remember Paulie punching the sh*t out of him a few years back

My favourite is Henry Tualagi smashing him, like a train

P_1

The main thing that annoys me is the whitewash that the press and IRFU have glossed over the whole incident.

It doesn't matter who you are or if it was an accident or not, you just don't make contact with any part of another players body with your foot when you're playing rugby.

I mean look at ROG's 'Bishop Brennan' against Edinburgh. If that was worth a two week ban then surely POC's 'Randy Orton' is worth a bit more.

shuffol

Bottom line, POC exposed Kearney to an unacceptably high risk of serious injury and possibly more, he was in full control of his actions. Whilst I agree that he wouldnt have intended to kick Kearney unconcsious I think he was determined to kick the ball and the fact Kearney's head was in the way was irrelevant. I dont think anybody could have any complaints if he got the book thrown at him. As it is it stinks to high heaven and the silence from the media is equally damning.

Teferi

The reaction to this incident from more blinkered people in the media, on various social media platforms and elsewhere on the internet has left an extremely bad taste in my mouth.

I really believe that they don't even believe what they are saying and are secretly counting their blessings that POC wasn't cited.

As for the incident - POC had no intention of knocking out Kearney but the entire act was completely and utterly reckless. At the very least he deserved a citing and a short ban. He had no care for the safety of Dave and that cannot be tolerated on the modern rugby pitch. This is beyond contestation and if you believe otherwise you are wrong. There is no argument here.

I particularly admire Joe's remarks earlier today especially given the circumstances of his possible future employment. He talked sense and I have a feeling he actually held his tongue somewhat.

This entire incident has shown to me that the citing process needs to be completely overhauled. That starts with making the "independent" commissioner actually independent - he should have absolutely nothing to do with any of the teams or their unions involved in a match. I have a feeling it will take many more incidents like this before this will happen though.

locum-motion

.ak wrote: »

No, what did he say?

As an aside, apparently the incident has gone massively viral in France.

He said "i see its an accident but dangerous play regardless!" in reply to another person who said "not even happnin' is the word on the street.. f**kin joke!!!" but I can't find what's not happening; I presume the citing is what's not happening. I ncan't find what twet of Cudmore's the other bloke was replying to, so is it possible he said something more controversial in an earlier tweet and deleted it?