Possible Petrol station scam?

py2006

I've noticed on a couple occasions lately that after leaving a petrol station I do not seem to come out with as much as I thought.

Today, the petrol was 3-4 cent cheaper than what I paid the last time yet the petrol gauge dial indicates that there isn't as much. I normally put €30 in and that usually brings me up to the half way point or may be ever so slightly below that. Today, it was almost down to the mark below that and yet it was cheaper.

This has now happened on a couple occasions.

I have also noticed that in one particular station that when I put the pump into the car and squeeze it nothing comes out for the first 2 secs yet the machine proceeds to charge me. I reckon they got about 30cent out of me and if thats the case with every customer...

grrrrrr :mad:

Guffy

You should stop filling up by price which fluctuates but fill up by quantity ie. Fill up by 30 litres rather than 30 euro.


There is a way to check for yourself. Get a container such as a 5 litre petrol container. Put in 5 litres and work out the price to make sure its right and also look at container to see if its over the mark. If not report the garage.


Sorry make sure its at. The mark

py2006

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I don't mean to sound brisk but your measuring is about as unscientific as it comes. Not only is 30E of petrol not a fixed amount of petrol your point of reference isn't great either.

Maybe so but surely if it is cheaper per litre...

Stainless_Steel

Are the pump gauges not calibrated by an independent standards crowd?

johnty56

There is one garage in west Dublin where a 5 litre container can magically hold 6 litres and still not be full....

Justin10

johnty56 wrote: »

There is one garage in west Dublin where a 5 litre container can magically hold 6 litres and still not be full....

Name and shame

Cash is king

Rochey18 wrote: »

Name and shame

Yeah good one and destroy someones business because some internet randomer has a conspiracy theory.

Odelay

I'd hate to work in the NSAI Legal Metrology Service, answering the phone to "I put in €10 and only got Y miles and I normally get X, I'm being ripped off".


I would however prefer to see them being more visible/active and that the wee stickers they put on the pumps are more regularly updated and compliance records would be posted on their website.

OldmanMondeo

No a real scam is when the pump says 80+ litres pumped into a 70 litre tank that had a 1/4 tank indicated... And it only stopped cause I copped something was wrong. I usually just fill the tank. It was the last time I used that station, I have even ran the risk of running out.

vicwatson

py2006 wrote: »

I've noticed on a couple occasions lately that after leaving a petrol station I do not seem to come out with as much as I thought.

Today, the petrol was 3-4 cent cheaper than what I paid the last time yet the petrol gauge dial indicates that there isn't as much. I normally put €30 in and that usually brings me up to the half way point or may be ever so slightly below that. Today, it was almost down to the mark below that and yet it was cheaper.

This has now happened on a couple occasions.

I have also noticed that in one particular station that when I put the pump into the car and squeeze it nothing comes out for the first 2 secs yet the machine proceeds to charge me. I reckon they got about 30cent out of me and if thats the case with every customer...

grrrrrr :mad:

Contact NSAI Legal Metrology Service and advise them of your concerns and they'll stop by unannounced

Justin10

Usually when I think something is a miss, il bring a long a 5 Litre Jerry can. Top that up and see what the results are.

Atlantic Dawn

The gauge in the car can easily fluctuate 10-20% at times with readings, can't go with that for any accuracy. For peace of mind go back and buy 5 litres in a 5 litre jar, if it fits acquit.

Dj320

As a filling station owner I hear this at least once per week, my gauge didn't move, the miles clock says I have still only 20kms left, my can took 6 litres, it really gets my blood boiling, do you all really think that a station would even get away with this for one day, firstly I have noticed Citroen , Renault Peugeot and some Honda cars that their magic mileage clocks simply DO NOT WORK and ARE NOT ACCURATE, also some people let their cars so low on fuel that the float gets stuck to the tank bottom and will not pop up for a few miles, and lastly, gallon cans are not accurate, due to them sometimes not having the right calibration and also cans will swell over the years creating a bulge on them ( look at your home heating tank, some have gotten a belly on them. If you want to measure it , go home and get your wife's measuring jug from the kitchen and use that, like I told a customer to do one day he accused me of robbing him , because that's what ye are doing basically, which I might add, he did do and came back and apologised to me.
The pumps are tested, calibrated , sealed and certified on a regular basis nowadays due to the amount of complaints, which I might add a lot of pumps are actually putting out too much fuel due to wear of the pumps internals as I was told by the NSAI employee, furthermore he has only come across one place tampering with pumps ( the place on the quays in Dublin , all over e news a few years ago )

Cee-Jay-Cee

Petrol gauges are only a rough indication of how much is left in the tank, the half way mark on the gauge is 99% of the time not the half way mark. Like others have said €30 is not a measurement of capacity.

Fuel pumps are checked regularly by revenue/customs and I would say 99.999% of them are accurate.

ironclaw

€30 of petrol, is about 18.18 litres at €1.65 per litre. 4 cent in the difference (i.e. €1.61 per litre) is 18.63 litres. Thats 450ml (A can of coke is 330ml) or if you had a 45 litre tank, thats 1% of its capacity. Your fuel gauge is no where near accurate enough to even register that. In fact, temperature would probably add even more error that a 4 cent difference in a fill.

Friend of mine use manage a garage and I asked about fuel scams. Basically said its impossible. Pumps & tanks are sealed and calibrated. If your busy or a main line station, you won't get away with it. Its like alcohol and cigarettes, anything that produces tax revenue is under even more scrutiny.

Dj320

CJC999 wrote: »

Petrol gauges are only a rough indication of how much is left in the tank, the half way mark on the gauge is 99% of the time not the half way mark. Like others have said €30 is not a measurement of capacity.

Fuel pumps are checked regularly by revenue/customs and I would say 99.999% of them are accurate.

Finally a person who talks sense and not nonsense, my pumps were checked twice in 2 months, whoever reported me done me a favour as my diesel pump was giving too much, when I say too much it was over the NSAI tolerance which is less than a teaspoon, so I was a happy man, saving myself a whole cupful a day

Thinkingaboutit

The only problem I ever had was that I had a problem with running that occurred after I used a certain garage, and vanished when that fuel was used up and replaced or much diluted with newer fuel.

johnty56

To the garage owner... calm down or you'll have a stroke! I can imagine it must be pretty frustrating for an honest person in your industry, and I worked in retail for years so I know what its like to deal with the public. The fact of the matter is that there is a garage in west Dublin where I have more than once put well over 6 litres, 6.45 litres the last time into a plastic gerry can that was not swollen, and yes I do know that they do swell and bulge a little but at the end of the day they don't swell that much! The can was about 80 percent full. The same garage could also put more fuel in a cars tank than the cars tank had capacity for.
The garage has since been refurbed and now the same gerry can is nearly full, to the same point, on about 4.5 litres. How would you explain that? I'm not being smart, just because you are honest it does not mean that all station owners/operators are. Honest question... is it a scam or is it machine error?

Dj320

johnty56 wrote: »

To the garage owner... calm down or you'll have a stroke! I can imagine it must be pretty frustrating for an honest person in your industry, and I worked in retail for years so I know what its like to deal with the public. The fact of the matter is that there is a garage in west Dublin where I have more than once put well over 6 litres, 6.45 litres the last time into a plastic gerry can that was not swollen, and yes I do know that they do swell and bulge a little but at the end of the day they don't swell that much! The can was about 80 percent full. The same garage could also put more fuel in a cars tank than the cars tank had capacity for.
The garage has since been refurbed and now the same gerry can is nearly full, to the same point, on about 4.5 litres. How would you explain that? I'm not being smart, just because you are honest it does not mean that all station owners/operators are. Honest question... is it a scam or is it machine error?

So your saying that if someone put 50 lirtres in their car they would pay for 60ltrs , if a station was to do that, why on earth would they go for such a high amount, also they wouldn't be doing it for a week when the NSAI would close them because people nowadays are obsessed with fuel and the amounts they get. Like the guy I sent off with his 6ltrs in his can and actually got his wife's measuring jug and measured it, it gave me such a laugh to think of him at home doing it.

johnty56

I don't really know to be honest.. All I know is what I can say that I have seen myself... I may even still have the receipt to prove the amount that went into the jerry can the last time, but it'd take me a while to dig it out. I said it to the staff on duty on the day in question and all I got was a grunt and a shrug of the shoulders.
It'd be interesting to see how much you could warp a plastic jerry can to make it fit 6.45 litres with room left over for about 20 percent more than was in it. So do you reckon it was just warpage?

Dj320

johnty56 wrote: »

To the garage owner... calm down or you'll have a stroke! I can imagine it must be pretty frustrating for an honest person in your industry, and I worked in retail for years so I know what its like to deal with the public. The fact of the matter is that there is a garage in west Dublin where I have more than once put well over 6 litres, 6.45 litres the last time into a plastic gerry can that was not swollen, and yes I do know that they do swell and bulge a little but at the end of the day they don't swell that much! The can was about 80 percent full. The same garage could also put more fuel in a cars tank than the cars tank had capacity for.
The garage has since been refurbed and now the same gerry can is nearly full, to the same point, on about 4.5 litres. How would you explain that? I'm not being smart, just because you are honest it does not mean that all station owners/operators are. Honest question... is it a scam or is it machine error?

Well I've seen cans hold 6 odd litres, just because its a can doesn't mean it holds 5 ltrs, some hold more,generally they are marked for 5ltr but hold more, get a measuring jug in future from a parts store , also some jerry cans are American so their gallon is different to British gallon

johnty56 wrote: »

I don't really know to be honest.. All I know is what I can say that I have seen myself... I may even still have the receipt to prove the amount that went into the jerry can the last time, but it'd take me a while to dig it out. I said it to the staff on duty on the day in question and all I got was a grunt and a shrug of the shoulders.
It'd be interesting to see how much you could warp a plastic jerry can to make it fit 6.45 litres with room left over for about 20 percent more than was in it. So do you reckon it was just warpage?

johnty56

Dj320 wrote: »

Well I've seen cans hold 6 odd litres, just because its a can doesn't mean it holds 5 ltrs, some hold more,generally they are marked for 5ltr but hold more, get a measuring jug in future from a parts store , also some jerry cans are American so their gallon is different to British gallon

As I said, after the garage was refurbed, the same 5 litre can was full to the same point approximately with less than 5 litres. Thanks for pointing out the vagaries of plastic gerry cans and the difference between ours and US gallons. However, as I am not a complete tard I was in fact aware of this. I will be sure to contact you the next time I need some measurement advice.

Zubeneschamali

johnty56 wrote: »

As I said, after the garage was refurbed, the same 5 litre can was full to the same point approximately with less than 5 litres.

What did the NSAI Legal Metrology Service say when you reported the garage?

Bandara

Odelay wrote: »

I would however prefer to see them being more visible/active and that the wee stickers they put on the pumps are more regularly updated and compliance records would be posted on their website.

NSAI do not use them stickers or put any notifying mark on the pump anymore.

Bandara

johnty56 wrote: »

There is one garage in west Dublin where a 5 litre container can magically hold 6 litres and still not be full....

Nothing unusual about that, what people do not know is that a 5 ltr fuel can quite often hold approx 6.5ltrs.

It's required to allow for expansion/fumes etc. hence part of the reason why you are not legally allowed to buy fuel in a non approved container.

johnty56

I hate to labour the point, but it seems that you don't understand what I said. I said that a 5 litre jerry can, made of plastic, took 6.45 litres of fuel and was still only about 80-85% full. Does that make sense? I didn't say I filled it till i got petrol on my shoes.

Zubeneschamali

johnty56 wrote: »

It'd be interesting to see how much you could warp a plastic jerry can to make it fit 6.45 litres with room left over for about 20 percent more than was in it. So do you reckon it was just warpage?

This is just unbelievable. You're saying that after putting 65 litres in (by the pump), I'd only have put 40 actual litres in the tank. I think anyone would notice if their 70 litre tank took 110 litres to fill.

ironclaw

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This is just unbelievable. You're saying that after putting 65 litres in (by the pump), I'd only have put 40 actual litres in the tank. I think anyone would notice if their 70 litre tank took 110 litres to fill.

It does seem so massive a gap that its borderline unbelievable. The key to any scam is not getting caught. Your looking at a difference of ~50% of stated versus delivered. Your going to get caught out as soon as anyone with half a brain rolls up to fill. If you were scamming, you'd be far better off with a 10 to 5% difference, much harder for the average person to notice.

johnty56

There is always the possibility that it is not intentional, old machinery etc. Perhaps the initial measurement of the flow is not accurate, which would explain discrepancies with small amounts, for example 6-10 litres, which is pumped pretty quickly. Either way, that station wasn't accurate, deliberate or not.
At this stage I'm sorry I didn't take it further than just saying it to the staff instore... I know I should have.

Guffy

johnty56 wrote: »

I hate to labour the point, but it seems that you don't understand what I said. I said that a 5 litre jerry can, made of plastic, took 6.45 litres of fuel and was still only about 80-85% full. Does that make sense? I didn't say I filled it till i got petrol on my shoes.

Again what was said when you reported the garage?

Bandara

johnty56 wrote: »

I hate to labour the point, but it seems that you don't understand what I said. I said that a 5 litre jerry can, made of plastic, took 6.45 litres of fuel and was still only about 80-85% full. Does that make sense? I didn't say I filled it till i got petrol on my shoes.

I'm sorry, but I have to be blunt what you are saying is just ludricious.

By your own quotes, you say a 5ltr can is 80% full at essentially 6.5 ltrs, so add the remaining 20% in and your at 7.5 litres, which would mean the garage is "scamming" you by 50%.

Just to put that into real money terms, even assuming this supposed station sells a low to normal amount of fuel, lets use 2.5m litres, then that place is going to make close to 2 million euro profit a year for this 'scam'. ie €5,500 A DAY.

Come on, lets use our brains here. This is getting silly. It's not possible.

R.O.R

I've also managed to get over 6 litres in to a 5 litre, red plastic, petrol can. It can hold more than 5 litres as there is a line where it's supposed to be around 5 litres, and I went over that. Additional space is for fumes if the can is stored for a while.

I've done this on numerous occasions, with most of the fuel cans we have here - and the one I have at home for the lawnmower. One time I was filling the diesel can at the local station, while the AA were on the other side of the same pump, doing an independant measure.

It's not the fuel station ripping anyone off, it's the fuel cans being able to hold more than they are stated as holding. The story about the same can only holding 5 litres after the garage was refurbed sounds a lot like it was made up to "prove" a point.

ironclaw

Hammertime wrote: »

Just to put that into real money terms, even assuming this supposed station sells a low to normal amount of fuel, lets use 2.5m litres, then that place is going to make close to 2 million euro profit a year for this 'scam'. ie €5,500 A DAY.

Exactly. And Mr. Revenue, who knows exactly how much fuel you bought in unless your being very underhand with laundered fuel, will see your 'up' 2 million euro on what you should be. Scamming is about being clever and not getting caught. Pumps off by +20% is just asking for trouble. People are under the impression scammers are stupid, the vast majority are fiercely intelligent and have a scam down to the T.

cpoh1

A couple of comments on the pumps and their meters;

*The meters themselves in a lot of garages are calibrated very infrequently - some as seldom as once a year out the country away from the spotlight.

*The meters themselves have a tolerance of +/- 2% at best. In all likelyhood up to 5% on the older pumps meters.

*The meters on petrol pumps are unreliable and tend to lose calibration easily due to the fact that they are mechanical with moving parts. The clicking at a petrol pump is the meter rolling as petrol passes through it. Oil terminal flow meters are calibrated bi-weekly to ensure they are spot on. They still drift occasionally.

This IS a problem and garages are taking advantage of it, whether deliberate or accidental. These meters are calibrated on the safe side, the equipment will never show less than what is actually pumped, it will nearly always overread.

Not sure im buying the consiperacy theories with jerry cans. We are talking about 5L cans with little risk/requirement for expansion of fumes, never mind expanding under the weight/mass of the fuel. In all likelihood if it says 5L at the mark on the can and the pump reads 6.45L then its the pump not the can. If it walks like a duck and all that.

Ive personally experienced this issue with some garages in Cork that overread (with verified containers) and would not use them again.

johnty56

I really have lost interest in repeating myself, so I won't post again on this thread. The poster who suggested I made up the point about the issue resolving when the garage was refurbed/ taken over is exactly the reason I try not to get involved in web based discussions. I can see his/ her point, I could be making it up, and in order for him/ her to maintain balance in their own world view I therefor must be. However, the truth is that I am not making it up, as for what you think, I really couldn't give a toss.
Have a nice day:)

Bandara

johnty56 wrote: »

I really have lost interest in repeating myself, so I won't post again on this thread. The poster who suggested I made up the point about the issue resolving when the garage was refurbed/ taken over is exactly the reason I try not to get involved in web based discussions. I can see his/ her point, I could be making it up, and in order for him/ her to maintain balance in their own world view I therefor must be. However, the truth is that I am not making it up, as for what you think, I really couldn't give a toss.
Have a nice day:)

Good. Your talking nonsense.

Dj320

cpoh1 wrote: »

A couple of comments on the pumps and their meters;

*The meters themselves in a lot of garages are calibrated very infrequently - some as seldom as once a year out the country away from the spotlight.

*The meters themselves have a tolerance of +/- 2% at best. In all likelyhood up to 5% on the older pumps meters.

*The meters on petrol pumps are unreliable and tend to lose calibration easily due to the fact that they are mechanical with moving parts. The clicking at a petrol pump is the meter rolling as petrol passes through it. Oil terminal flow meters are calibrated bi-weekly to ensure they are spot on. They still drift occasionally.

This IS a problem and garages are taking advantage of it, whether deliberate or accidental. These meters are calibrated on the safe side, the equipment will never show less than what is actually pumped, it will nearly always overread.

Not sure im buying the consiperacy theories with jerry cans. We are talking about 5L cans with little risk/requirement for expansion of fumes, never mind expanding under the weight/mass of the fuel. In all likelihood if it says 5L at the mark on the can and the pump reads 6.45L then its the pump not the can. If it walks like a duck and all that.

Ive personally experienced this issue with some garages in Cork that overread (with verified containers) and would not use them again.

Also pure and utter BS, pumps can pump for 5or6 years and still be exact, how do I know, because when my pumps were tested before after it hadnt been tested in years, all my pumps bar 1 was exact, and guess what the pump that wasn't right was putting out too much, because if you had a mechanical mind OP you would think logic and realise when a pump becomes worn it will put out more, not tighten up on what it puts out. To say that a pump gave 6.45 litres less on just 5litres is stupid talk, if a truck filled up at the same pump and paid for 645litre and only got 500 litre he will know and the guards called.

cpoh1

Dj320 wrote: »

Also pure and utter BS, pumps can pump for 5or6 years and still be exact, how do I know, because when my pumps were tested before after it hadnt been tested in years, all my pumps bar 1 was exact, and guess what the pump that wasn't right was putting out too much, because if you had a mechanical mind OP you would think logic and realise when a pump becomes worn it will put out more, not tighten up on what it puts out. To say that a pump gave 6.45 litres less on just 5litres is stupid talk, if a truck filled up at the same pump and paid for 645litre and only got 500 litre he will know and the guards called.

I worked in the petrolchemical industry so no its not "BS". There is no such thing as a 100% accurate instrument anywhere in any industry in the world. Most if not all of the flow meters used in petrol stations are by their design and nature not accurate and will drift.

When you calibrate an instrument you have an allowed slippage where the instrument is still within its specified tolerance, combine this with the instrument only being accurate to 2-5% by design in the first place. With oil terminal flow meters are checked for calibration their accepted tolerance is much tighter due to the quantity of fuel being sold and repurcussions of being out. Petrol stations have a much looser tolerance.

How it works is this: Instrument is specified by manufacturer to be accurate to +/-2% (newer meters, older ones are less accurate), your calibration tolerance must be at least twice what is the known instrument accuracy level. As a result your pumping quantities can be 5% out and still be perfectly within calibration and not need adjustment or replacement.

It is virtually impossible for these instruments to read "exact" as you call it, just not possible. Even for the newest meters with very good accuracy they will be out real world by up to €2 for every €100 pumped.

Zubeneschamali

cpoh1 wrote: »

It is virtually impossible for these instruments to read "exact" as you call it, just not possible. Even for the newest meters with very good accuracy they will be out real world by up to €2 for every €100 pumped.

We aren't really arguing about pumps that are 2% off at worst here, johnty is claiming that a pump was out by 50% on at least 2 different days.

That's ridiculous.

Dj320

cpoh1 wrote: »

I worked in the petrolchemical industry so no its not "BS". There is no such thing as a 100% accurate instrument anywhere in any industry in the world. Most if not all of the flow meters used in petrol stations are by their design and nature not accurate and will drift.

When you calibrate an instrument you have an allowed slippage where the instrument is still within its specified tolerance, combine this with the instrument only being accurate to 2-5% by design in the first place. With oil terminal flow meters are checked for calibration their accepted tolerance is much tighter due to the quantity of fuel being sold and repurcussions of being out. Petrol stations have a much looser tolerance.

How it works is this: Instrument is specified by manufacturer to be accurate to +/-2% (newer meters, older ones are less accurate), your calibration tolerance must be at least twice what is the known instrument accuracy level. As a result your pumping quantities can be 5% out and still be perfectly within calibration and not need adjustment or replacement.

It is virtually impossible for these instruments to read "exact" as you call it, just not possible. Even for the newest meters with very good accuracy they will be out real world by up to €2 for every €100 pumped.

Think about what you just said in your last line, 2euro in every 100, are you for real, I would be a very wealthy man if that was the case, To put that into real terms, if I sell 50,000euro of oil a week your saying I also get the added bonus of "slippage" of 1000euro on top of my profits, ring the NSAI because I don't know where you have got your tolerance figures from as it is much closer to .078 of a litre in every 20litres, and this is actual fact because I have been with the guy from NSAI when doing my pumps. Your figure would have consumers hugely out of pocket. And your way out with figures of 5%

the_syco

Dj320 wrote: »

So your saying that if someone put 50 lirtres in their car they would pay for 60ltrs , if a station was to do that, why on earth would they go for such a high amount

Sounds like said user has it on automatic, and fills it until the pump "clicks" and doesn't put any more fuel in as it's now full, rather than watching how much fuel that they put into the tank.

johnty56 wrote: »

I hate to labour the point, but it seems that you don't understand what I said. I said that a 5 litre jerry can, made of plastic, took 6.45 litres of fuel and was still only about 80-85% full. Does that make sense? I didn't say I filled it till i got petrol on my shoes.

Is there a mark on the jerry can stating where the 5L mark is?

Hammertime wrote: »

Just to put that into real money terms, even assuming this supposed station sells a low to normal amount of fuel, lets use 2.5m litres, then that place is going to make close to 2 million euro profit a year for this 'scam'. ie €5,500 A DAY.

Come on, lets use our brains here. This is getting silly. It's not possible.

I remember reading that the dodgy station on the quays got fined €10,000 both times that it got caught.

sparkthatbled

Only petrol stations i have a problem with are those unmanned ones. They make you select an upper value of petrol you will take, for example €60, then it creates a transaction of 60 on your card to make sure you have that much in your account, then you fill up and lets say it costs €56, you then have a transaction for 60 and one for 56 on your account (so your account balance might be 200 but available balance is 84). It takes up to a week for them to cancel the 60 transaction and the money to become available to you again. Meanwhile you may have had some sort of direct debit bounce because you were up to €60 short and are then liable to pay penalty fees and referral fees and all the other fees. Your €56 tank ends up costing you about €70. I don't see why they can't immediately cancel the test transaction, and until they do I won't be using them again. Beware!

cpoh1

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

We aren't really arguing about pumps that are 2% off at worst here, johnty is claiming that a pump was out by 50% on at least 2 different days.

That's ridiculous.

Agreed - not going to happen. 10% is a very realistic figure on some stations off the beaten track.

Dj320 wrote: »

Think about what you just said in your last line, 2euro in every 100, are you for real, I would be a very wealthy man if that was the case, To put that into real terms, if I sell 50,000euro of oil a week your saying I also get the added bonus of "slippage" of 1000euro on top of my profits, ring the NSAI because I don't know where you have got your tolerance figures from as it is much closer to .078 of a litre in every 20litres, and this is actual fact because I have been with the guy from NSAI when doing my pumps. Your figure would have consumers hugely out of pocket. And your way out with figures of 5%

Again, I have worked in the industry, worked directly with the meters used in terminal gantries and I can tell you for a fact that the very expensive and reliable meters we use are calibrated every two weeks to ensure they are spot on.

To make it clear:

- Quantity shipped to terminal will be 100% because it is calculated by delta volume in the tanks. This will be compared with shipping bom to ensure no loss.
- Quantity supplied to the trucks for petrol station delivery will be close to 100% because they use very accurate and well maintained meters. Any cal drift is corrected regularly.
- Quantity delivered to stations will be the same as above. i.e. you will get what you pay for.
- Quantity delivered to customer will be out by close on 2% like i said.

NSAI are fully aware of this discrepancy and build it into their checks when reviewing pumps.

Ive given you the science behind why this is the case, you can disbelieve all you want. Im just giving my own experience having worked in this area for quite a few years in the past.

Remember that although 0.078L per 20L might seem small its still close to 0.5% out. Thats €0.50 per €100 of fuel. 2% is the norm with newer meters. Older ones are worse.

People need to stop sticking their heads in the sand. Pumps will read a little high everywhere and some places are worse than others. Some stations have it deliberately that way. Just be careful what stations you pick.

Dj320

cpoh1 wrote: »

I worked in the petrolchemical industry so no its not "BS". There is no such thing as a 100% accurate instrument anywhere in any industry in the world. Most if not all of the flow meters used in petrol stations are by their design and nature not accurate and will drift.

When you calibrate an instrument you have an allowed slippage where the instrument is still within its specified tolerance, combine this with the instrument only being accurate to 2-5% by design in the first place. With oil terminal flow meters are checked for calibration their accepted tolerance is much tighter due to the quantity of fuel being sold and repurcussions of being out. Petrol stations have a much looser tolerance.

How it works is this: Instrument is specified by manufacturer to be accurate to +/-2% (newer meters, older ones are less accurate), your calibration tolerance must be at least twice what is the known instrument accuracy level. As a result your pumping quantities can be 5% out and still be perfectly within calibration and not need adjustment or replacement.

It is virtually impossible for these instruments to read "exact" as you call it, just not possible. Even for the newest meters with very good accuracy they will be out real world by up to €2 for every €100 pumped.

cpoh1 wrote: »

Agreed - not going to happen. 10% is a very realistic figure on some stations off the beaten track.



Again, I have worked in the industry, worked directly with the meters used in terminal gantries and I can tell you for a fact that the very expensive and reliable meters we use are calibrated every two weeks to ensure they are spot on.

To make it clear:

- Quantity shipped to terminal will be 100% because it is calculated by delta volume in the tanks. This will be compared with shipping bom to ensure no loss.
- Quantity supplied to the trucks for petrol station delivery will be close to 100% because they use very accurate and well maintained meters. Any cal drift is corrected regularly.
- Quantity delivered to stations will be the same as above. i.e. you will get what you pay for.
- Quantity delivered to customer will be out by close on 2% like i said.

NSAI are fully aware of this discrepancy and build it into their checks when reviewing pumps.

Ive given you the science behind why this is the case, you can disbelieve all you want. Im just giving my own experience having worked in this area for quite a few years in the past.

Remember that although 0.078L per 20L might seem small its still close to 0.5% out. Thats €0.50 per €100 of fuel. 2% is the norm with newer meters. Older ones are worse.

People need to stop sticking their heads in the sand. Pumps will read a little high everywhere and some places are worse than others. Some stations have it deliberately that way. Just be careful what stations you pick.

But you said in your previous thread 5% , now you are saying .05% which is a huge difference. And you can believe what you want on metres in the oil refinery but I never in 30years have pumped back through my pumps what was delivered, on 10,000 litres I lose on average 50litres

cpoh1

Dj320 wrote: »

But you said in your previous thread 5% , now you are saying .05% which is a huge difference. And you can believe what you want on metres in the oil refinery but I never in 30years have pumped back through my pumps what was delivered, on 10,000 litres I lose on average 50litres

Please read again - up to 5% on older meters is the norm (and acceptable). Newer meters are no better than 2% accurate - this is manufacturers specs not a whim on my part. You claimed 0.078L per 20L - that is close to 0.5% out. That is a great result (one i am very skeptical about), its typical of what we saw at oil terminals across the country for one vendor when calibrated and these were much more expensive and accurate meters.

I feel like im banging my head off a brick wall - im just giving my experience from my time in the industry. Ill leave this thread off from now on

Zubeneschamali

cpoh1 wrote: »

2% is the norm with newer meters. Older ones are worse.

Have you a link? Wikipedia (I know, I know) states:

In the United States, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) specifies the accuracy of the measurements in Handbook 44. Table 3.30 specifies the accuracy at 0.3%

which is an order of magnitude better than your 2% figure.

Bandara

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread, the correct legal tolerances for retail fuel pumps are as follows, if you are not achieving these parameters your equipment needs to be re-calibrated, I have extremely busy 12 year old pumps that sit perfectly within these tolerances and I have them retested and certified every January without any issues.

The price of petrol and diesel is increasing all the time. How do I know I am getting the right amount?
LMS has a countrywide programme of inspection of retail petrol and diesel pumps. Inspectors check that the amount dispensed is within legal tolerances (that is between -0.5% and +1%) and that all adjustable components are sealed. Always check that the display on the fuel pump indicates zero before you commence dispensing.

Taken from NSAI Site

http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Measurement/FAQs.aspx

cpoh1

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Have you a link? Wikipedia (I know, I know) states:

In the United States, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) specifies the accuracy of the measurements in Handbook 44. Table 3.30 specifies the accuracy at 0.3%

which is an order of magnitude better than your 2% figure.

No link - have calibration specs for a particular fuel vendor in Ireland for their delivery gantry folowmeters (accepted tolerance at 0.15%) that wouldnt really be for public consumption.

Just to re-emphasise we are talking about mechanical type pulse flowmeters not modern HART E&H, Yokogawa in-line or even less accurate clamp-on flowmeters that are all NIST compliant. These are cheap and cheerful old school pulse count flowmeters that were installed, being perfectly honest NIST traceble instrumentation was simply not on the radar for stations beuolt near on 20 years ago.

Maybe not internet/boards.ie type scrutiny satifscatory, just my experience with kit like this.

cpoh1

Hammertime wrote: »

There is a lot of misinformation on this thread, the correct legal tolerances for retail fuel pumps are as follows, if you are not achieving these parameters your equipment needs to be re-calibrated, I have extremely busy 12 year old pumps that sit perfectly within these tolerances and I have them retested and certified every January without any issues.

The price of petrol and diesel is increasing all the time. How do I know I am getting the right amount?
LMS has a countrywide programme of inspection of retail petrol and diesel pumps. Inspectors check that the amount dispensed is within legal tolerances (that is between -0.5% and +1%) and that all adjustable components are sealed. Always check that the display on the fuel pump indicates zero before you commence dispensing.

Taken from NSAI Site

http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Measurement/FAQs.aspx

Hammertime I hope you are not alluding to the information I am giving as "misinformation". The info above does not take into consideration what the manufacturers accuracy of the instrument is.

I.E. If the manufacturers spec for the equipment says it is accurate to +/- 1% then when calibration is checked and must be within this limit plus the legal acceptable limit. Its not as simple as saying fuel dispensed must be equal to 0.5% - 1% full stop.

I spent quite a few years working on the other side of ther fence from yourself and if the older oil terminals are struggling with instrumentation accuracy (some older unamed terminals could barely manage the 1% for their original ULG gantries then I find it very hard to believe the blurb quoted above especially when it fails to mention the need to allow the manufacturers tolerances. It just doesnt add up.

ballooba

ironclaw wrote: »

Friend of mine use manage a garage and I asked about fuel scams. Basically said its impossible. Pumps & tanks are sealed and calibrated. If your busy or a main line station, you won't get away with it. Its like alcohol and cigarettes, anything that produces tax revenue is under even more scrutiny.

But yet you can run a station for months without ordering any diesel through official channels.

Solair

If you fill up by litres you just end up coming away with a sense of shock/horror when you go to the counter after a fuel price hike.

I think if more people filled in litres rather than by price there'd be a lot more pressure on the politicians !