Potential first time dog owner - advice and tips?

Lord TSC

Hey guys and gals,

After many years of working over the others at home, I've finally managed to convince everyone that getting a dog for the house is a good idea.

Being unemployed and with loads of free time that is going nowhere (the joys of my chosen profession), I've decided to get a dog to train and raise as if they were my own child :P. It'll be a few weeks before we can get it, mind; my brother is finishing up Uni, and then we're off on a holiday for a few weeks. But the hope is when we get back in Mid-July, I can start getting things together to get one.

As a first time dog-owner, and indeed first time pet owner outside a few goldfish as a child, I have a few questions about it though. More things that might seem common sense to people used to having pets in their lives, but things I want to be 100% sure of. I don't want to go into the experience blind, so want to use the next few weeks getting fully educated and prepared.

First off, I wanted advice on breeds, since we're going to be pretty particular. We live in a 3 bed semi in a housing estate, in a house that's decent enough size for small to small-medium sized dogs, though nothing too big. We'd also be looking for something that doesn't shed too much. And also, since it would be my first dog, I'd want something "easier" to train (though fully acknowledge it will be a task training any dog; one I look forward to). Originally, I had it in my head I'd love a Beagle; they are the quintessential dog in my opinion. But looking at posts in the forum as well as doing a bit of research online, I've seen a lot of people say they can be quite rough (pun not intended :P) to train for newbies. Size wise, they'd be perfect examples of what I think would suit around the house though. Would anyone have any thoughts on breeds, beagles, etc? (Reading DeVore's posts have been particularly insightful and enjoyable )

Secondly, I'm trying to put together some cost estimates; price of the dog (even rescues seem to want some payment in the form of donations), crate, bed, toys, bowls. Insurance is a big one by the looks of it. Initial vet visits. Out of interest, how much do people reckon they spent initially when they got their first dog?

From a training perspective, I've seen a lot of people reference to crate training, and although I worry about the image of the dog locked in a cage, even in the short term, I like some of what I've read about the benefits. Would anyone recommend me any reading about crate training, such as the pros and cons? Or indeed would anyone recommend some vital readings about any other things first time owners should know? Be they books, websites, etc.

On a more specific note, a question about gardens; we've got a section of our back garden which has quite a few stones and pebbles. Given the dog could be left unattended in the long run should I have to run to the shop or into town for an hour, how likely are dogs to start swallowing stones like that? Obviously I get I would be able to supervise it at first, and make sure that I try and train it not to start eating them, but eventually I'd have to be able to trust it on its own and want to know if it will simply start trying to down them as soon as I took an eye off it. Does anyone have any experience with such issues?

Also, how do people have the bravery to leave dogs outside shops when they run in? This may sound silly, but I'd be worried about it the entire time I was in the shop, terrified it would at best get loose, at worse be stolen...

To pre-emptive some things I notice get talked alot about with new owners, I know about exercise and time dedication; I already go for 30 min walks every day, usually more as summer kicks in. I'm also trying to get fitter right now, and a huge part of that is increasing my walks. Having a dog, therefore, would slot right into that aspect of my life I reckon. There'd be no problems with exercise, as walks are all ready a part of my routine. Even better, there's a massive big field outside my house in the estate that's a haven for dogs to play fetch and the likes in :P Would be no issue to take it out multiple times a day for a play and a run around. There's also three of us at home 24/7, with the exception of the odd hour trip to the shop or town, so there'd be no fear of it being abandoned or lonely. When we get it, it's going to be like a new baby coming into the house and will likely get very doted over

So yeah. Any advice and comments would be much appreciated. As I said, I want to go into this with eyes open as much as possible, so any other advice on subjects I missed would also be very much appreciated.

RubyGirl

Just two things spring to mind straight away op, what type of accomodation are you living in a present, with parents by the sounds, and are you looking to get back into the workforce. Who will have overall ownership of the dog?

Hooked

Have skimmed thru your post as I've to head out with my fella... For at least 8km in the lashing rain. No choice in that... a Husky is not everyone's idea of a first dog. But it suited us perfectly! And I enjoy the exercise, no matter the weather.

A few quick pointers as a first time dog owner myself.

Don't buy off done deal. Reputable breeder or re-home a dog. Money saved in the short term on a backyard bred dog will cost far more in the long term.

Crate train your dog. The list of positives is far too long. The 'cage' image or prison idea is nonsense. My lad LOVES his crate and it helps toilet train, is useful for travel, hotel stays, camping, post operative, the list is endless!

Have a think about / research raw feeding (barf diet). We switched 2 weeks ago with our 2 year old and I should have done it far sooner. At the very least - stay away from cheap foods.

A pet is for life. 12, 13... ?? years (met a lad at the beach lately who had just buried his 17 year old). Consider this above all else.

They need company. A healthy mix of yard time and a house dog has worked wonders for us. Not out the yard all day and night - bored to death and barking/misbehaving as a result. A tired dog is a happy dog.

I'm a firm believer in pack mentality and the alpha role. Others disagree. I've been very firm but fair from day one. No up on furniture, in beds or upstairs. He has his crate, his yard (with shelter), twice daily walks and training. With lots of love and attention. But... I'm the boss. Most of the time.

Lastly... Neuter your pet.



And if you want a dog that doesn't shed... Run a mile from a Siberian Husky! FYI - They are not an 'off lead' dog, require a hell of a lot of exercise and stimulation. Bore easily. Howl (not bark) and blow their coats twice a year.

borderlinemeath

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Hey guys and gals,

After many years of working over the others at home, I've finally managed to convince everyone that getting a dog for the house is a good idea.

Being unemployed and with loads of free time that is going nowhere (the joys of my chosen profession), I've decided to get a dog to train and raise as if they were my own child :P. It'll be a few weeks before we can get it, mind; my brother is finishing up Uni, and then we're off on a holiday for a few weeks. But the hope is when we get back in Mid-July, I can start getting things together to get one.

As a first time dog-owner, and indeed first time pet owner outside a few goldfish as a child, I have a few questions about it though. More things that might seem common sense to people used to having pets in their lives, but things I want to be 100% sure of. I don't want to go into the experience blind, so want to use the next few weeks getting fully educated and prepared.

First off, I wanted advice on breeds, since we're going to be pretty particular. We live in a 3 bed semi in a housing estate, in a house that's decent enough size for small to small-medium sized dogs, though nothing too big. We'd also be looking for something that doesn't shed too much. And also, since it would be my first dog, I'd want something "easier" to train (though fully acknowledge it will be a task training any dog; one I look forward to). Originally, I had it in my head I'd love a Beagle; they are the quintessential dog in my opinion. But looking at posts in the forum as well as doing a bit of research online, I've seen a lot of people say they can be quite rough (pun not intended :P) to train for newbies. Size wise, they'd be perfect examples of what I think would suit around the house though. Would anyone have any thoughts on breeds, beagles, etc? (Reading DeVore's posts have been particularly insightful and enjoyable )

For a first time dog owner/pet owner, beagles can be a handful. Hounds in general are harder to train, their minds are on other things! Scents, smells, prey, a feather floating in the wind...:D That said there's always exceptions to the rule.

Don't sweat the small stuff such as 'non shed'. Pretty much all dogs will shed at some point, it's no biggie. Some of the double coated breeds will shed far more than others. I have setters, they shed twice a year but not that much really. I find shorter haired dogs hair tends to stick in things more than longer though.. maybe that's just me.

Secondly, I'm trying to put together some cost estimates; price of the dog (even rescues seem to want some payment in the form of donations), crate, bed, toys, bowls. Insurance is a big one by the looks of it. Initial vet visits. Out of interest, how much do people reckon they spent initially when they got their first dog?

The donation to a rescue covers a multitude of expenses. Neutering/spaying, vaccinations, microchipping will cost an average puppy owner maybe €300-€400, but a rescue will ask for much less. Not only that but the most invaluable thing that a reputable rescue passes on is the evaluation of the dog to make sure it's the right one for your family.

I don't really want to add up what I spend on my dogs, I don't have insurance, I'd rather put money away each month. Besides one of my dogs is a rescue that had multiple issues when he was found so these wouldn't be covered by insurance if he got them again as they tend not to cover 'pre-existing conditions'. Vaccinations are €70 per dog per year. Beds may need replacing if you get a 'chewer'. I'd suggest you get vet bed for the crate.

From a training perspective, I've seen a lot of people reference to crate training, and although I worry about the image of the dog locked in a cage, even in the short term, I like some of what I've read about the benefits. Would anyone recommend me any reading about crate training, such as the pros and cons? Or indeed would anyone recommend some vital readings about any other things first time owners should know? Be they books, websites, etc.

Crates are nothing like what the image suggests, a crate is meant to be used as a sanctuary for the dog, somewhere to go to rest, relax and feel safe in their own space. Used incorrectly, ie without any training they can be abused as a bit of a prison for the dog. But a little training and time and your dog will love their crate.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/ is a good reference online.

On a more specific note, a question about gardens; we've got a section of our back garden which has quite a few stones and pebbles. Given the dog could be left unattended in the long run should I have to run to the shop or into town for an hour, how likely are dogs to start swallowing stones like that? Obviously I get I would be able to supervise it at first, and make sure that I try and train it not to start eating them, but eventually I'd have to be able to trust it on its own and want to know if it will simply start trying to down them as soon as I took an eye off it. Does anyone have any experience with such issues?

Nope, stone eating isn't something that dogs do. Grass yes, poo - sometimes. We have loads of gravel and never have I ever encountered a dog eating stones.

Also, how do people have the bravery to leave dogs outside shops when they run in? This may sound silly, but I'd be worried about it the entire time I was in the shop, terrified it would at best get loose, at worse be stolen...

I don't do it. I see it happening and I worry the same as you, that the dog would be stolen...then again, it depends on the dog maybe. A pedigree dog would be far more tempting to opportunistic thieves than a cross breed or a full on mutt/heinz 57.

To pre-emptive some things I notice get talked alot about with new owners, I know about exercise and time dedication; I already go for 30 min walks every day, usually more as summer kicks in. I'm also trying to get fitter right now, and a huge part of that is increasing my walks. Having a dog, therefore, would slot right into that aspect of my life I reckon. There'd be no problems with exercise, as walks are all ready a part of my routine. Even better, there's a massive big field outside my house in the estate that's a haven for dogs to play fetch and the likes in :P Would be no issue to take it out multiple times a day for a play and a run around. There's also three of us at home 24/7, with the exception of the odd hour trip to the shop or town, so there'd be no fear of it being abandoned or lonely. When we get it, it's going to be like a new baby coming into the house and will likely get very doted over

So yeah. Any advice and comments would be much appreciated. As I said, I want to go into this with eyes open as much as possible, so any other advice on subjects I missed would also be very much appreciated.

Only when your dog has perfect recall would you be able to let it off on a green, open space. You run the risk of losing your pet, or worse still it has an altercation with another dog or even something as simple as running up to a child will have your neighbours on your case (won't somebody please think of the children:rolleyes:).

Also, while there is somebody home 24/7 it is advisable to leave the dog for small amounts at a time every so often so that when you do all have to be out at the same time (family gatherings/occasions) that the dog doesn't have any issues. Long term when you do get a job, you don't want the dog to suffer from the dreaded 'separation anxiety' as it's hell for the dog and the owner.

Maybe to familiarise yourself with having a pet you could foster for a local rescue. I see you post in the Louth forum and there is a great local rescue that I foster for from time to time. It would really give you an insight to what having a pet is like without the commitment and it will stand to you when the right dog comes along. Who knows, you might join the failed fosterer club;).

Lord TSC

RubyGirl wrote: »

Just two things spring to mind straight away op, what type of accomodation are you living in a present, with parents by the sounds, and are you looking to get back into the workforce. Who will have overall ownership of the dog?

3 bed semi-detatched. Yes, living with parents. Looking to work, but as a teacher, I may as well be looking for gold in the rivers. Trying to start up my own business from home though, so as I said, plenty of time for the dog. Wouldn't get it if I thought I was likely to disappear from the house any time soon. And it would be "my" dog, along with my brother, but I'm looking to take on pretty much all of the responsibility.

Hooked wrote: »

A few quick pointers as a first time dog owner myself.

Don't buy off done deal. Reputable breeder or re-home a dog. Money saved in the short term on a backyard bred dog will cost far more in the long term.

Crate train your dog. The list of positives is far too long. The 'cage' image or prison idea is nonsense. My lad LOVES his crate and it helps toilet train, is useful for travel, hotel stays, camping, post operative, the list is endless!

Have a think about / research raw feeding (barf diet). We switched 2 weeks ago with our 2 year old and I should have done it far sooner. At the very least - stay away from cheap foods.

A pet is for life. 12, 13... ?? years (met a lad at the beach lately who had just buried his 17 year old). Consider this above all else.

They need company. A healthy mix of yard time and a house dog has worked wonders for us. Not out the yard all day and night - bored to death and barking/misbehaving as a result. A tired dog is a happy dog.

I'm a firm believer in pack mentality and the alpha role. Others disagree. I've been very firm but fair from day one. No up on furniture, in beds or upstairs. He has his crate, his yard (with shelter), twice daily walks and training. With lots of love and attention. But... I'm the boss. Most of the time.

Lastly... Neuter your pet.

Thanks for all this. That's exactly the type of things I'm looking for

Hooked wrote: »

Have skimmed thru your post as I've to head out with my fella... For at least 8km in the lashing rain. No choice in that... a Husky is not everyone's idea of a first dog. But it suited us perfectly! And I enjoy the exercise, no matter the weather.

And if you want a dog that doesn't shed... Run a mile from a Siberian Husky! FYI - They are not an 'off lead' dog, require a hell of a lot of exercise and stimulation. Bore easily. Howl (not bark) and blow their coats twice a year.

Haha. I know my brother loves them, and would love to get one. But I know that the house nor the garden wouldn't be big enough for one of them. Beautiful dogs, but no way would they suit us, unfortunately.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The donation to a rescue covers a multitude of expenses. Neutering/spaying, vaccinations, microchipping will cost an average puppy owner maybe €300-€400, but a rescue will ask for much less. Not only that but the most invaluable thing that a reputable rescue passes on is the evaluation of the dog to make sure it's the right one for your family.

I feel really stupid that it didn't register that obviously the cost is reduced with the rescue. I knew they did those things (or so it says on the DAR site) but I was still working in costs of those things as well :rolleyes:

Crates are nothing like what the image suggests, a crate is meant to be used as a sanctuary for the dog, somewhere to go to rest, relax and feel safe in their own space. Used incorrectly, ie without any training they can be abused as a bit of a prison for the dog. But a little training and time and your dog will love their crate.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/ is a good reference online.

Thanks for the link. Exactly the type of reading I'm after

Nope, stone eating isn't something that dogs do. Grass yes, poo - sometimes. We have loads of gravel and never have I ever encountered a dog eating stones.

Yum. Poo. That's good though. Eases my mind a bit.

Only when your dog has perfect recall would you be able to let it off on a green, open space. You run the risk of losing your pet, or worse still it has an altercation with another dog or even something as simple as running up to a child will have your neighbours on your case (won't somebody please think of the children:rolleyes:).

Yeah, I guess that's part of the training process to look forward to.

Maybe to familiarise yourself with having a pet you could foster for a local rescue. I see you post in the Louth forum and there is a great local rescue that I foster for from time to time. It would really give you an insight to what having a pet is like without the commitment and it will stand to you when the right dog comes along. Who knows, you might join the failed fosterer club;).

Yeah, I noticed the DAR group do that, and it's something I might look into. Thanks for all the advice

aonb

nothing more really to add to this, you have had lots of great advise from the others. Just a couple of comments - beagles are super dogs but are 'scent-obsessed' and I would not consider them to be the ideal dog for for first timers. If you are not working, it might be a good idea to volunteer some time at a dog-shelter type organisation if there is one within reach of you. There might be some puppy training class near you too that you could check out - good for you as a newbie, and the dog will enjoy the socialising. Dogs love their routine, and once you set boundaries, whether its simple things like not jumping up on sofa's or whatever, try to be consistant with them.

Once a puppy or dog, comes into your life, you will form a bond, love each other, as long as you remain in the alpha position, it is a beautiful relationship that will only enrich your life. Its a learning experience for you and the dog, so dont worry too much! Let us know how you go

DBB

At the risk of dragging the thread off-topic, that's two posters now advocating the owner maintains this alpha position...
I'm confused by this! This concept of the Alpha position having any meaningfulness between human and dog has been completely disproven. Why do people, despite having read the evidence, still cling to this Alpha leader thing? Wolves don't even do the Alpha Leader thing, at least not in the sense it's usually meant... so why on earth would dogs? Or maybe ye haven't read the evidence?
I just don't get it!

Edited to add: to prevent me having to link to too many things, this page of the Dog Welfare Campaign pretty much gathers it all into one place:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

Now, lest it be said that this is just some random website, the authors, and references used, are serious big players int he world of dog behavioural science. Try as I might, I can find no evidence-based research in favour of the "alpha leader" model. However, just to illustrate the people behind the Dog Welfare Campaign, it is pretty clear that they're pretty substantial advocates:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/press-statement.php

angeldaisy

I have nothing much to add to what's already been said, but just wanted to add my own experience.

My first dog when I had my own house etc, was a collie cross who was going to be drowned at birth because he was not a bitch basically. So we rescued him and have found him to be the most loyal, easy to train, lovable rogue ever! He's now 11 years old, afraid of his own shadow but at the same time a great guard dog:D
We decided last year to get another dog and ended up helping out a fellow boardsie in taking a dog they had rescued, a JRT x. Totally different kettle of fish:eek:
Even though we had experience before with terriers the difference between the 2 breeds is enormous. She is so prey driven its hilarious I can't leave her off the lead unless we are back the fields by ourselves.
She's very intelligent like our collie, but whereas with our collie he wants to do it to please us, she just does it cos she can, which can make training fun:rolleyes:

Anyway what I wanted to say is please do your research on the type of dog, if you decided to go down the rescue route, spend some time with the dog and with the people who are looking after it and make sure that you gel with them. This dog will be with you for a long time, so make sure you are absolutely certain about what you want from them!

doubter

tHE TYPE OF DOG I THINK OFF WHEN READING THIS IS A ROUGH COLLIE- A LASSIE DOG. tHEY DON'T NEED TOO MUCH EXERCISE( AN HOUR A DAY IS USUALLY ENOUGH)(woops caps lock), they don't shed very bad BUT you MUST brush them every day unless you have them shaved(I do that with mine he loves it) they are friendly, yet very easy to train...just my 2 cents..

angeldaisy

doubter wrote: »

tHE TYPE OF DOG I THINK OFF WHEN READING THIS IS A ROUGH COLLIE- A LASSIE DOG. tHEY DON'T NEED TOO MUCH EXERCISE( AN HOUR A DAY IS USUALLY ENOUGH)(woops caps lock), they don't shed very bad BUT you MUST brush them every day unless you have them shaved(I do that with mine he loves it) they are friendly, yet very easy to train...just my 2 cents..

Would you post a photo of your collie when he's been shaved please, mine is a cross rough and border collie and I've often been tempted to do it! Would love to see the results:D

doubter

sure...:D

aonb

DOUBTER, never saw this type of collie shaved - never even heard of anyone shaving one - he looks fantastic - certainly removed the problem of matting/brushing!

DBB, on the issue of owner maintaining 'alpha' status - I merely meant in the context that the owner is seen by the dogs as the one in charge - purely from the point of view that the dogs will allow you to be in charge of their safety, care, food, health, good behaviour, not showing aggressive behaviour/dominance etc. Ive seen so many owners who let the dog think it can behave as it pleases, which has led to the owner having problems later on.

I have two Jack Russells crosses - one was a total hunter, would go to ground every chance he got, and SO clever. The other is a total softie and afraid of his shadow and really 'thick' (they are uncle/nephew). So even two dogs from same breed/breeder/line can be totally different in temprement. Our ancient collie is a rescue and afraid of EVERYTHING - after 12 years, still wont come in to the house. So, spending time with a dog you are thinking about rescuing, or checking the personalities of a puppy's parents, if possible, is probably a good idea

doubter

Thanks Aon. Buddy is a different dog when the hair is off, he is so much happier and he does not pant with the warmth. i feel the irish climate (except in the winetsr 2009/10) are not designed for a dog with that mass of hair. he is so happy when it's off so I'm keeping it short. :-)

DBB

aonb wrote: »

D
DBB, on the issue of owner maintaining 'alpha' status - I merely meant in the context that the owner is seen by the dogs as the one in charge - purely from the point of view that the dogs will allow you to be in charge of their safety, care, food, health, good behaviour, not showing aggressive behaviour/dominance etc.

But a child will allow its parents to be in charge of all of the above... But nobody calls parents alpha leaders, and nobody calls a bold child "dominant".
The terms "dominant" and "alpha leader" are, I suspect, being misunderstood and misused, probably because the same terms are freely bandied around by tv personalities who don't actually know what these terms mean in the biological sense, and don't realise they're talking out their butts.
The owner relationship with the dog is most accurately described, in layman's terms at least, as a parental one. Just as the wolf's relationship with their offspring is. No need to either complicate, nor mislabel it, by wrongly assuming that either wolf offspring, human offspring, or dogs are hell-bent on achieving world domination.

I've seen so many owners who let the dog think it can behave as it pleases, which has led to the owner having problems later on.

So have I! But not one of them could be explained in terms of dominance or the owner assuming this "alpha" position... All of them can be explained in the same terms as a bold child though. In other words, dogs allowed to behave as they please do so in the absence of being shown any boundaries or manners. Exactly the same as a spoiled child. If we don't train them, how are they meant to know what we want from them?
But again, let me repeat, nobody ever calls a spoiled child "dominant". Indeed, the thought of it is repulsive. Yet it's ok to refer to dogs as "dominant" despite the fact that neither they, nor their ancestors, utilise a dominance hierarchy in any more meaningful a way than humans do.
Again, please allow me to invite you to read the links above, as they better describe why the use of, or belief in the accuracy of these terms is misguided.

angeldaisy

Doubter, he's gorgeous! thanks for the pics.


Good luck OP in whatever route you decide to take:)

Lord TSC

So looking at breeds and doing research, I was wondering if I could ask more experienced people on here....what's the general consensus on Westies and Shih Tzus for first time owners?

Looking at size wise, they'd be perfect but how are they personality wise in general? What's people's experiences of them? I know that's a general and vague question, but as I said, I want to get as much feedback as possible before committing to anything.

DBB

Allow me to take on the Westie portfolio OP!
The first thing about them is that it is very, very, very difficult to find a well-bred, and ethically-bred Westie in the south of Ireland. Almost every Westie in the south of Ireland is puppy farmed, or back-yard-bred. This might sound like an exaggeration, but unfortunately, it's not. There is, however, a good little Westie club up in the North, but you can expect to pay top dollar for them. That said, an extra couple of hundred quid over the lifetime of the dog comes to very little... and the vet's bills aren't as high either!

As a consequence of really poor breeding over the past 20 years, this breed is top of the league when it comes to health problems. The majority of Westies WILL, at some stage in their lives, develop one, or more, of the big Westie conditions: Atopy (skin), Perthe's Disease (hips), Cranio-Mandibular Osteopathy (jaw), Westie Lung (so endemic in the breed, it's named after them), diabetes, cancers, pancreatic problems, digestive problems, and westies are considered to be the most allergic of all breeds (many of the aforementioned conditions are related to allergies)... well, I did tell you they were top of the unhealthy list

Behaviour-wise, they are stubborn, wayyyy too clever for many owners, independent, opinionated, but deeply loyal: there is a good chance that a Westie will bond closely with one person in the house, and this bond can be exceptionally close when appreciated and reciprocated by the human side of it. Like a lot of terriers, they are full of fun, mischief and divilment, but at the same time, they tend to have only so much patience, and tend to be less tolerant than other breeds. They tend not to be big into cuddling: a little bit is okay, but they will let you know when they've had enough. Ignore this at your peril, because they are quick enough to bite when things don't go their way.
For these reasons, whilst they often love kids, they don't like to have to live with them 24/7: they just don't have the patience for it. They could be described as a good grandparent's dog: they love when the grandkids come to visit, but at the same time, wave goodbye to them enthusiastically too! A lot of Westies are surrendered to rescue due to them having an incident with a child.
There will always be exceptions to these tendencies, but my experience, anecdotal as it is, is that 8 out of 10 Westies would rather not live with children full time, and conform to a large degree to what I've said above.
All of that said, they have a huge fan base (me included:o), but generally their fans are people who love them because they are little feckers, not in spite of it
A lot of people get Westies because, well, they're damn handsome little dogs. But they get a nasty shock when they realise the big attitude this dog can have, and again, a lot of them end up in rescue because of this.

They do shed, not heavily, but they do, and their coats are pretty high maintenance: you're looking at having them professionally groomed 4 times per year.

JustAThought

lOVED the pics of the skinhed lassie - mad! Looks v happy thou!!

OP - I would suggest that insurance really is a Must - this myth of pennies in a jar covering major issues or illnesses or lifelong Conditions really isn't realistic. I'm with Allianz & it has saved me so many times from Having to make impossible decisions for my dog ( leg fix or pay rent, leave dog in pain or visit vet) that I cringe when I hear of people happy to Take that risk. For a pedigree it's from e250 upwards depending on the dog .

The set up costs of a dog are
High enough. Two sets of vaccinations, microchipping, eventually neutering, ( there's another e200 easily), bed , bowl, lead,collar, toys, - there's another e70 minimum at least, you will have to feed it so Depending on the quality of the food and the size of the dog that can range a lot. Dry food is arguably the best , and a
" good " quality medium Size bag That might last a month would be about e40. If you get a teacup Dog or mastiff this will vary of course!!!! The cheep stuff you get in supermarkets usually isn't good quality - allegedly - but you also have to feed twice or three times as much so
It Ends Up often not being cost efficient at all. You will probably realistically be spending e50 a Month on feeding & spoiling your dog - factor in another e25 if you are spreading the costs of the insurance over the year.

There is a great list of breeds & characteristics & energy levels - ill see if I can dig it Out and PM it to you.

I live beagles but see their drawbacks - they really do sniff & have OCD tunnel vision when in a scent - something to consider !! Beautiful dogs thou !

I have a short haired dog - great choice for me (!) but if I had a euro for every terrier and jack Russell owner who says their dog sheds madly I would be rich! Mind that one !!!

I thought crates were cruel but then thought about the damage a dog could do to my car so I invested in a crate ( ir a see through cage) & it was the best decision ever. Although to us it looks like a cage, to my dog it is her safe haven and hidey hole, I leave it with the door open all day & when she is tired or sulking she goes in there and cuddles up & feels safe. When I break a glass cleaning up I send her there while I sweep up & she is safe; and when I mop the Floor with disinfectant which she likes to lick (:0 I send her there & she sits in her coushin & plays with her toy & watches the world go by & is safe. When she needed to be kept still for a MONTH because some careless ****er threw glass on the ground & she Slashed her tendon it was a blessing that she was already crate trained & didn't have that added trauma when I had to go out . ( if she'd got up on the sofa she would have split it open again & been in agony -
More stitches, longer recovery time
Etc). I NEVER leave we in the crate for any length of time, but when we were house training her she slept in the crate with the door closed at night & there was never a Problem or issue. No dog will soil its sleeping space so it meant that housetraining went really well & easily.

You will have lodes of fun & great times with your dog , but as someone else pointed out it will last 7-14 years. You aren't working now but you will have to build into your calculations who will walk it when you get a job as you cannot leave a dog alone all day & unwashed or unfed, and you will also have to factor in the difficulty of finding somewhere to rent with a dog in the long term. Also if you want to emigrate/ spend a year abroad - what will happen then.

I'd second fostering or adopting an appropriate pound or rescue dog. Also the dogs trust usually have puppies also they just don't post them on their website - should be worth a look !!!

Best of luck : )

JustAThought

I sent you a PM with that site for dog descriptions & other long winded stuff in it!!! Look out for it! : )

Lord TSC

Hope it's not minded that I'm bumping my old topic. Felt it was better than starting a new one, so people can see where I'm heading easier

Back from holidays yesterday, so now focusing on getting my first dog With Haddington Road about to kick in, and thus teaching jobs pretty much vanishing, I'm also moving to start my own business up, so will be home 95% of the day (as will my brother and mother).

The main question I wanted to ask though was about what people do with their pets should they decide to go out for a few hours into town? Say the three of us decide we want to go to the cinema; would the general practice then be to move them to a dog minder place for the few hours? Do people leave them in their crates or out the back garden? What do people do in that situation? Also, say for a puppy, will dog minder places take younger pups in (a question aimed at Borderlinemeath there, being honest, since I live across the road :P). Is there any worries there about vaccinations and the likes? Or am I committing to not going out for a few weeks while I train it up

Also, want to start ordering toys and stuff before it arrives. Do people generally use the basic sites like ebay and amazon? I've got one page saved from a few weeks back doing crates, so that's taken care of. Want to get a Kong or two for it though; ebay the safest bet?

borderlinemeath

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Hope it's not minded that I'm bumping my old topic. Felt it was better than starting a new one, so people can see where I'm heading easier

Back from holidays yesterday, so now focusing on getting my first dog With Haddington Road about to kick in, and thus teaching jobs pretty much vanishing, I'm also moving to start my own business up, so will be home 95% of the day (as will my brother and mother).

The main question I wanted to ask though was about what people do with their pets should they decide to go out for a few hours into town? Say the three of us decide we want to go to the cinema; would the general practice then be to move them to a dog minder place for the few hours? Do people leave them in their crates or out the back garden? What do people do in that situation? Also, say for a puppy, will dog minder places take younger pups in (a question aimed at Borderlinemeath there, being honest, since I live across the road :P). Is there any worries there about vaccinations and the likes? Or am I committing to not going out for a few weeks while I train it up

Also, want to start ordering toys and stuff before it arrives. Do people generally use the basic sites like ebay and amazon? I've got one page saved from a few weeks back doing crates, so that's taken care of. Want to get a Kong or two for it though; ebay the safest bet?

A dog 'should' be ok left for about 4 hours, maybe more depending on the actual dog. Once it's been previously exercised and mentally stimulated it should just sleep until you get back. Depending on how crate training has goine you could leave them in a crate for that amount of time (with water) or just in a bed in the kitchen/utility. I would be wary of leaving a dog in a back garden, but each to their own. Again it could depend on the dog, a pure breed dog would be desirable to thieves, but then some cross breeds/lurchers are also highly desirable, it's a risk you would have to measure yourself.

Puppies are different, they need human companionship to learn in the early months. Once a pup has all their vaccinations it's no problem to mix with other dogs in daycare. But I would do some short periods of time without company, for the dogs own good, otherwise it may get too attached and used to constant companionship and may suffer from separation anxiety if and when it is left on it's own.

Jebbtools is great for crates

https://www.jebbtools.ie/animal-products

I've bought kongs from zooplus, best to do is shop around for prices.

Lord TSC

Ok, cool. I can't see it happening all that often at all. Just that sometimes, we all head off to the cinema in Swords. Planning on going before I get the puppy though and then likely won't be doing it for a few weeks.

Went to Equipet today and picked up a few basic supplies (bowls, toys, etc). Nothing specific cause we still aren't 100% sure what we're getting, though we've got a few in mind now. Still, have to see whats available.

Took a look at food price and noticed it's a fair bit more expensive in shop, at least for things like Royal Canine.

Out of interest, should I be waiting to order food online till I see what dog we get and what it's being fed before hand? Looking at Skinners on Amazon, it seems way cheaper and seems more recommended on here. Am I ok ordering a bag now or should I wait? My instinct is to have as much as possible here at home for when the dog arrives...

SillyMangoX

If you get the doggy you should continue him on whatever food he has already been on, moving to a new home can be stressful, and a new food may really upset the tummy! After he's settled maybe in like a week or 2 you can think about switching to whichever brand of food you prefer but do it gradually by mixing in a tiny bit into his old food then gradually building it up over a week or 2 until he is completely switched over.

Lord TSC

Well, picked up a beautiful Shih Tzu pup this afternoon. And have fallen instantly in love (he says before Night 1).

She was really nervous when we brought her in, but we discovered she adores a little ball toy. Me and my bro spent half an hour passing it back and forth, with her jumping after it, rolling over for it and she gradually came out of her shell.

She had a nap, woke up and got really bite-y then. Biting everything she could. She seems to have realised we get mad when she tries it though. Trying to introduce it to the crate. She seems ok when the door is opened, and ok with her ball when the door is closed but after a few minutes then starts to freak out. I'm trying to ignore it's crys somewhat but then it started to throw itself against the door a bit so had to let it out.

Back asleep again now. A tad worried about tonight, given she seems to sleep for 20 minutes and then wants back out to play. Any tips for night one?

EDIT: And pics soon. :P

DBB

Don't lock her into the crate yet! That shouldn't happen for at least a few more days, maybe weeks depending on the pup. You cannot hurry this, you must get pup to the stage where she's going in and out voluntarily, and sleeping in there voluntarily. And when it comes to closing the door in a week or two, you need to stay with her. Do it whilst she's asleep, and when she wakes let her stay in for a minute before letting her out to pee.
There's a good thread, only a new thread, which illustrates what can happen if you hurry this process:

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056987615/2/#post85421248

As for tonight, and fir the next few weeks, make sure the bladder and bowel are empty, leave a radio on a talk channel, give her a soft teddy or two or three, and critically, give her a small feed just before going to bed. A warm pup with a full tummy, and empty bladder and bowel, is a sleepy pup.
Then, get up 2-3 hours later to let her out for a pee and poop.
Then get up again 2-3 hours later for another toilet break.
I feel that new pups should not be left alone at all on their first few nights, because I think the experience is wayyyyy to stressful for them. Bring her up to your room, in her crate! She'll settle much quicker, and will wake you up when she needs to go out to pee... Win win! You get more sleep, so does she, AND you get to do some housetraining with her!

Edited to add: why are you calling her "it"? Sorry, it might be because you're just not used to refering to her yet, but I'll admit it's a pet hate of mine when pet animals are referred to as "it" when the sex is known!

Lord TSC

I'm a tad worried about bringing her upstairs in case she wakes everyone. Slightly more tempted to stay downstairs with her.

I also don't know if we can trust her to be left alone with the crate door open, since she keeps trying to explore dark corners and small spaces. :P She's at the stage where she'll walk in and out of the crate no problem when the door is open, and most of the time when the door is closed, she's grand. Starting to pick up the signs of her wanting to pee though, as she starts wimpering pretty loudly when its time to go. She's pooped on her bed twice already though which is a frustration

She's lying in the crate, door open, no problem at the moment. Head tucked down and having a nap. Plan on trying to spend some time tiring her out though.

DBB

Staying downstairs with her will work too!
Would you think about getting a puppy playpen? It'll solve a lot of your problems. I ranted at length about them in the thread I linked to above... I much prefer them to crates.
Also, please accept my apologies, I was very remiss in not wishing you heartiest congratulations on your new pup! Looking forward to the pics. Baby Shih Tsus are seriously cute!

JamboMac

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I'm a tad worried about bringing her upstairs in case she wakes everyone. Slightly more tempted to stay downstairs with her.

I also don't know if we can trust her to be left alone with the crate door open, since she keeps trying to explore dark corners and small spaces. :P She's at the stage where she'll walk in and out of the crate no problem when the door is open, and most of the time when the door is closed, she's grand. Starting to pick up the signs of her wanting to pee though, as she starts wimpering pretty loudly when its time to go. She's pooped on her bed twice already though which is a frustration

She's lying in the crate, door open, no problem at the moment. Head tucked down and having a nap. Plan on trying to spend some time tiring her out though.

If you start off pandering to her now you'll be doing it for a long time, the crate is supposed to be a sanctuary where a puppy can get from the hustle and bustle of a house.

Put her in her crate to sleep tonight with something that smells of you like a stuffed toy of hers, do not let her out if she starts jumping at the crate door as your teaching the wrong thing, leave space her crate if you can for her to do her business during the night, don't leave the gate for reason of presents and puppies chewing cables is not a good idea.

It might sound mean to leave the puppy sleep by itself but in the long run it will be better if you don't mind puppy sleeping in your bed for the rest of its life then of course do so.

Congratulations on starting to raise a puppy there will fun moments and stressful when you thought they where potty trained there's a fresh new present. There will be scary moments of thinking did she eat that is it safe and of course the times when your talking to your dog like they actually understand and all there think is where the sausages,

Good luck

DBB

JamboMac wrote: »

If you start off pandering to her now you'll be doing it for a long time, the crate is supposed to be a sanctuary where a puppy can get from the hustle and bustle of a house.

Pandering? It has been shown that staying with pup for her first few nights in a new home lowers stress, and lower stress in a pup leads to a better behaved adult. We're moving away, at last, from this make-them-tough-it-out approach... It's not good for long term wellbeing. Anxious pups make anxious adults.
You're quite right that the crate is meant to be a haven, but the pup has to learn that it's a haven, and this does not happen in a few hours. If pup is closed in the crate and gets anxious in there, at this early stage, you're setting her up for problems. Just read the thread that I linked to above as a case in point.

Put her in her crate to sleep tonight with something that smells of you like a stuffed toy of hers, do not let her out if she starts jumping at the crate door as your teaching the wrong thing, leave space her crate if you can for her to do her business during the night, don't leave the gate for reason of presents and puppies chewing cables is not a good idea.

Why would something that smells of an almost complete stranger help to soothe an anxious pup?
Also, allowing a pup to toilet in the crate completely negates the whole purpose of crate training. There'll always be accidents, but to deliberately set the pup up to pee in the crate is asking for trouble.
There is no subsititute for getting up at night and bringing pup out: it speeds up housetraining by a big factor. At worst, the pup should be able to leave the crate to pee on paper, or preferably in a sand- or turf-box. That's where the playpen comes in very handy, because you can dictate where the pup can toilet if it must toilet in the house.

It might sound mean to leave the puppy sleep by itself but in the long run it will be better if you don't mind puppy sleeping in your bed for the rest of its life then of course do so.

Did anyone suggest that the pup sleeps in the owner's bed? I don't think so. As above, reducing stress at this stage is now recognised as being more beneficial than leaving a pup to cry for hours alone. Once the pup has found her feet in her new home, she can start to be weaned away from the bedroom in her crate, which she should be happy in by then. Or, in OP's case, they can sleep downstairs with pup, but gradually start to leave pup when she has settled.
Less stressed pup makes less stressed adult. Owners don't have to be cruel to be kind. There's nothing wrong with being kind to be kind!

JamboMac

Well I did this with my and many people well before me and my dog is a well behaved adult and so are plenty of dogs that where done the same.

As regards the smell it would be more beneficial if she had something that smelt of the puppies mother as a dogs sense of smell is how it see's regardless of being a sight hound or and other specific grouping.

I never suggested to leave so it could pee in its crate but in case of accidents easier to clean a plastic bottom than a pillow

I leave my dog out the back when I'm gone for a couple of hours and she just plays outside and not howling and annoying the neighbours raised like I said like many people before me.

She is a basset hound and if I stuck to what I've read on the net you shouldn't let her off the lead in the park because they won't listen to you and do there own thing, this is the problem believe what they read on the net as gospel.

You have your way which you wish to do things and others have there's. after meeting of these small dogs my travels because they tend to be spoiled they tend to snappier and more anxious of dogs in there space.

To many people humanise there dogs and then they don't know how to communicate with other dogs and this can cause problems.

mymo

I used a crate for both dogs, beside the bed from the first night.
Mine had a top opening so I could put a hand in to pet the pup if they whimpered.
If they got up and cried, I got up, carried them downstairs (carry them or they will pee as soon as out of the crate) without fuss, and into the garden to toilet, once done lots of praise and back to bed.

I only ever shut the door of the crate at night, during the day it was downstairs, open for them to use, I did close it occasionally when they were asleep or eating a treat, so I could mop floors etc, and never had a problem with either dog.
Both were housetrained pretty quick, about 5 months they were completely trained, the first slept all night at 4.5 months and no accidents from a week or two after that, the second dog followed he big brother and had very few accidents, was sleeping all night from about 15 weeks.

I used a cue for both, it's a phrase you use to tell them to toilet. I use "do your business", to start you say it when they are in the act, then praise them for going, once you see the signs they are about to go, use the phrase, pretty soon you will know before they go and can use the phrase, once they catch on you can bring them out and say it, they will then go. It's great on a rainy night, mine know if I send them out to "do their business" they must go before coming back in. It's handy on long car journeys too.

Best of luck, can't wait for the pics!

Blazer

For our pup I wasn't giving him anything after 7pm food or water wise.
I'd take him to the toilet at least 2-3 time after that and he would be perfect for the entire night.
I'd give him a treat around 10pm to keep him going and if it was hot or I had walked him after his last food I'd let him drink some water but not gallons as he's prone to do.
Now he lasts all through the night no probs at all. I'm normally back up at 7am with work so he gets toilet/fed and watered at this time plus the missus looks after him during the day.

Regarding nighttime from day 3 I locked him in his crate overnight and also had the other dog sleep in the kitchen as well so the pup was happy as he knew the other fella was there with him.
In the crate I had a little bed for him as well as his toys and he's happy out in there.
At the start he wanted to come out of the crate but I ignored him and he's learnt now to only whimper if he wants to go to the toilet etc.
Do not give your puppy free access to your house. It will take way longer to toilet train him that way.
The first 2 nights I let him sleep in my bed but put a stop to that on the 2nd night when he poohed on the baby changer and pee'ed on the duvet

At this stage he was only 8 weeks old and now at 13 weeks he's flying it.
Still have to watch him where he pees as he doesn't recognise the missus as the boss and will actually pee in front of her.
He won't do it when I'm there and knows to go outside the back door.

andreac

Blazer wrote: »

Regarding nighttime from day 3 I locked him in his crate overnight and also had the other dog sleep in the kitchen as well so the pup was happy as he knew the other fella was there with him.
In the crate I had a little bed for him as well as his toys and he's happy out in there.

At this stage he was only 8 weeks old and now at 13 weeks he's flying it.
Still have to watch him where he pees as he doesn't recognise the missus as the boss and will actually pee in front of her.
He won't do it when I'm there and knows to go outside the back door.

A pup at 8 weeks shouldnt be left in a crate all night long. They cannot hold in it for that long and its very unfair to expect that from an 8 week old pup.

Lord TSC

Yawn. That was a tiring night.

We took it in shifts to stay down with her over night, and I landed the midnight to 6 AM slot :pac: She was like clockwork, hour and a half sleep, half hour away. We started off using puppy pads rather than rushing her outside; three of the 4 times she woke up, she walked right over to them, went on them (or at least in the general direction) and back to bed. Once though, she seemed to give up on the notion of "Nighttime for sleep" idea; she started getting really bite-y with everything. Every time I put her back in her bed, she would jump out smiling and ready to play. Eventually she crawled up at my feet and went back asleep, I gave her a few minutes and then just plopped her into bed.

She seems quite drained today though, which slightly worries me, cause I don't want her active and rested tonight when I want to sleep :pac: But she's really quick at learning things (biting fits aside).

andreac

What a cutie!!

But i really would advise you against the puppy pads as its confusing for the pup and you will have to start training all over again once you want her to go outside.

Blazer

andreac wrote: »

A pup at 8 weeks shouldnt be left in a crate all night long. They cannot hold in it for that long and its very unfair to expect that from an 8 week old pup.

oh I know..the first 2-3 weeks I was getting up at 3am to take him outside...and let me tell you..I was beat..we had just started getting our son to sleep through the night
the first week was the hardest..getting up twice a night and then started pushing it out till it was only once a night and now he's perfect till the morning
and @teamshadowclan don't give the puppy the habit of playing during the night..keep it strictly toilet orientated and she'll soon pick it up that these walks are strictly for toilet and back to bed again.
I used to take our fella for a nice 1-2.5km walk before his naptime and I was getting up at 2am and 4.30am for the first week and start gradually pushing out the times.

I found this site an excellent guide for potty training etc.

http://www.thehousebreakingbible.com/training/housebreaking.htm

Lord TSC

How do I stop the playingn though? I pick her up and put her to bed but she seems to think that's part of the game :S any tips to making her sleep quickly?

Blazer

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

How do I stop the playingn though? I pick her up and put her to bed but she seems to think that's part of the game :S any tips to making her sleep quickly?

I was just walking him straight over to the green and saying "toilet".
I gave him 5 mins and if he didn't go I'd bring him back in and give him another hour before taking him back out.
I wouldn't play with him or talk to him during this 5 mins.
Luckily he was getting it the 2nd or 3rd night.

Lord TSC

Night 2 was so, so much smoother than Night 1.

She slept solid from midnight till half 4 in the morning, and even then, woke up more because I took her out to the toilet than she wanted waking up. Went to the toilet and went back in to her bed, though would only settle at my feet. Still, a nights sleep is a nights sleep. I know she'll need to get proper use to her bed, but she's staying in it more readily more and more as the hours go on.

In more positive news, she's now going to the toilet out the backgarden and without the puppy pads as well. 9 out of 10 pees are being done outside, though she reacts more to Mom than me. She sees Mom coming and runs to the backdoor, climbs out, pees and then sits at our feet.

Pooing is another matter. She seems to prefer to wait till she breaks line of sight with us and then goes wherever. Last twice now though, she's gone out the backgarden and we've praised her as much as possible. Think she's starting to get the message.

The only other "problem" is that when she hears rattling of plastic, she comes bounding out for food, waking her tail and getting a tad barky. I'm taking a guess that her original owners might have been feeding her when they were eating.