No Logbook - Advice

Agricola

Well this is annoying....

Agreed to buy a car from a guy in the UK at the weekend. Spoke to him on the phone a few times, seems very straight. Everything looked above board. Told him last night I had booked a flight and ferry back and would pickup midweek. Then he sent me this email this morning...

"Hi Agricola

I just spoke with the DVLA about the sale of the car and was told that because I still had my previous address on the log book I had to send it in for a new one with a correct address.
I did that this morning and will receive the new log book in around 2 weeks.
I hope this wouldn't be an issue for you. I have the V11 from the previous owner that proves I'm the new owner so shouldn't be a problem, and DVLA told me that I only need to send them a letter on the day I sell the car to notify them of the sale and then post the new log book to you once I receive it.

Also, I asked them about tax refund as you are taking it to Ireland. Would it be possible for you to post me the tax disc once you have exited the UK?"

Obviously alarm bells are ringing now. Why the hell does he come up with this a day before we are due to meet!

Thoughts welcome. Any advances on "Run a mile" even more welcome!

keithsfleet

Definitely sounds a bit suspicious but then I'm not familiar with how it all works over there.

ironclaw

Have you paid him? If so, then its alarm bells. If not, whats the benefit for him in delaying a sale for potentially two weeks? I can't think of anything obvious that would arouse my suspicions. Perhaps it was genuine oversight and only noticed when he was doing the final paperwork.

Agricola

I havent paid him, but as Im due to pick it up this week, I would be paying him and driving it away without a logbook on Wednesday. He knows Im committed now after having paid for flights etc. So its not like I can just cancel and book again in a months time when he gets the logbook! He says he will send me on the document when the revenue in UK return it to him. But sure hes an ebay seller - I might never hear from him again

Ive checked with the DVLA and theyve said I can get an export certificate off them which should allow me to tax it here regardless. But I just don't know. Id rather have no suspicious when buying a car tbh.

CiniO

Agricola wrote: »

I havent paid him, but as Im due to pick it up this week, I would be paying him and driving it away without a logbook on Wednesday. He knows Im committed now after having paid for flights etc. So its not like I can just cancel and book again in a months time when he gets the logbook! He says he will send me on the document when the revenue in UK return it to him. But sure hes an ebay seller - I might never hear from him again

Ive checked with the DVLA and theyve said I can get an export certificate off them which should allow me to tax it here regardless. But I just don't know. Id rather have no suspicious when buying a car tbh.

On the one hand seller might be genuine, but he just got scared of idea of handing you the logbook so he looked at pretext no to do it. (sending one over to DVLA for address update was a perfect one).
It all might end up good, you will be back in Ireland, book VRT, and by the time you will get your booking, VRT will arrive.

But on the other hand, he might not be genuine, and there might be something wrong with the car's paperwork. In the worst case it might be stolen. I know it's unlikely, but surely there's always a risk.

If I were you, I would request him to sign a receipt for the car, which would state all details (reg, no, make, model, vin number, his details including address, social security number, etc), and have this all signed by him in the best case at the police station to have a policeman witness it.

Then when you are back in Ireland, and even if you don't receive V5C from him, you can always get export cert from DVLA and receipt you will have should prove you have rights to the car.

corktina

get him to go to the Police there with you and ask them to confirm it is his to sell..if he wont go, then you know...

Agricola

CiniO wrote: »

On the one hand seller might be genuine, but he just got scared of idea of handing you the logbook so he looked at pretext no to do it. (sending one over to DVLA for address update was a perfect one).
It all might end up good, you will be back in Ireland, book VRT, and by the time you will get your booking, VRT will arrive.

But on the other hand, he might not be genuine, and there might be something wrong with the car's paperwork. In the worst case it might be stolen. I know it's unlikely, but surely there's always a risk.

If I were you, I would request him to sign a receipt for the car, which would state all details (reg, no, make, model, vin number, his details including address, social security number, etc), and have this all signed by him in the best case at the police station to have a policeman witness it.

Then when you are back in Ireland, and even if you don't receive V5C from him, you can always get export cert from DVLA and receipt you will have should prove you have rights to the car.

corktina wrote: »

get him to go to the Police there with you and ask them to confirm it is his to sell..if he wont go, then you know...

Good idea lads. Just put a call through to the local constabulary! Im afraid they wont do that, even in his presence. They said to just go deal with the DVLA!

mgbgt1978

Is it a particularly unique car ?
Could you just use the flights and ferry and buy a different one from somebody else ?

The main problem here is that you will have brought this car back home, and will then spend the next few weeks worrying whether you will ever see the V5.
As well as trusting what he says now you are also trusting him to actually post over the new V5 once he receives it.

Again, is it a unique car.....if not then perhaps buy elsewhere and save yourself the stress of waiting for a V5.

edit. just sounds a bit strange that he is now concerned that his old address is on the V5....after all he knows the car is going abroad so what difference should the address make ?

Lex Luthor

ya be very careful here
I'd be very wary
ok you have paid for flights but would be a lot worse paying over for a car thats not going to be yours
Dont leave without a log book is my advice
Best of luck

Henry Ford III

Have you seen/driven/data checked the car OP?

2012paddy2012

run a mile. You will be obliged to return this car to the rightful owner if it is stolen. Forget the flights etc. Any body knows you need the tax book/registration book to sell a car to prove it yours. Forget it

mathepac

My first reaction is to suggest that you run away and swallow the loss on the plane & ferry tickets, but there might be a way to resolve what I admit sounds like a very dodgey setup.

Can the seller fax you copies of

• his licence / passport
• the insurance cert for the car
• all the last MOT certs & invoices
• the service invoices for the car?

In the circumstances I think asking for the above is a reasonable step. You could also tell him that in the absence of the V5C, you want to take his licence home with you and that you'll post it back with his tax cert once you get all the documentation you are owed.

It is vital that you him to sign a bill of sale, transferring beneficial ownership to you and noting the documents that still need to be exchanged.

The call is yours but if your heart is set on the car some of the above may help you. If he refuses any of the conditions, tell him to stick it and send him an invoice for your losses. He's a cheeky **** at best, a scammer at the worst.

the_syco

CiniO wrote: »

If I were you, I would request him to sign a receipt for the car, which would state all details (reg, no, make, model, vin number, his details including address, social security number, etc)

mathepac wrote: »

It is vital that you him to sign a bill of sale, transferring beneficial ownership to you and noting the documents that still need to be exchanged.

IMO, a receipt isn't worth the paper it's written on if the car is stolen. He could give a bogus address and social security number, etc, so that doesn't really prove that much.

mathepac

the_syco wrote: »

IMO, a receipt isn't worth the paper it's written on if the car is stolen. He could give a bogus address and social security number, etc, so that doesn't really prove that much.

With a bill of sale, if the car is stolen, OP has something to show he was not the thief. He''l lose the car but avoid jail.

Possession of a log book is not proof of ownership of a car, that only proves you are the registered owner or registered keeper in the UK. To prove beneficial ownership you need a bill of sale, an invoice or a receipt. My keyboard is crying because I'm typing this again.

lway

mathepac wrote: »

With a bill of sale, if the car is stolen, OP has something to show he was not the thief. He''l lose the car but avoid jail.

Possession of a log book is not proof of ownership of a car, that only proves you are the registered owner or registered keeper in the UK. To prove beneficial ownership you need a bill of sale, an invoice or a receipt. My keyboard is crying because I'm typing this again.

Is that the V11 that the seller refers to in his mail ?

mathepac

lway wrote: »

Is that the V11 that the seller refers to in his mail ?

AFAIK the V11 is the reminder the DVLA or HMRC send out for motor-tax renewal for private vehicles. The V5C is the log-book.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-disc

Del2005

Personally I'd be checking for other cars close to the airport.

The seller may be legit, but why did he suddenly want to change his address after he'd placed the car for sale? It has a hint of something not being 100%

Agricola

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Have you seen/driven/data checked the car OP?

Havent bought a teleporter yet! But yeah I have done a HCI check on it. Nothing came up worrying except a change of plate back in the late 80s

mathepac wrote: »

My first reaction is to suggest that you run away and swallow the loss on the plane & ferry tickets, but there might be a way to resolve what I admit sounds like a very dodgey setup.

Can the seller fax you copies of

• his licence / passport
• the insurance cert for the car
• all the last MOT certs & invoices
• the service invoices for the car?

In the circumstances I think asking for the above is a reasonable step. You could also tell him that in the absence of the V5C, you want to take his licence home with you and that you'll post it back with his tax cert once you get all the documentation you are owed.

It is vital that you him to sign a bill of sale, transferring beneficial ownership to you and noting the documents that still need to be exchanged.

The call is yours but if your heart is set on the car some of the above may help you. If he refuses any of the conditions, tell him to stick it and send him an invoice for your losses. He's a cheeky **** at best, a scammer at the worst.

Yeah he has sent me copies of his licence and the green slip that comes on the bottom of the V5, which has his and the cars details on it.

Hes been very upfront, volunteering any and all issues the car has. He says he will have a full service history (shown in the ad) and it has just been MOT'd. But then if I was an experienced scammer, thats the way Id approach this sale as well.

Whats the etiquette on haggling an agreed ebay price? I believe the buyer has no right to, but I think in this case, I should stick my boot in and bid him again after I do the test drive. Hes telling me he thinks he undersold it, which he certainly hasnt, but I have a feeling when I start waving cash around he will take a hit on it. Only right, considering hes asking me to buy something that wasnt advertised. The ad clearly stated the V5 was present.

- Im heading over tonight and will see whats what tomorrow morning. Thanks for Bill of Sale idea. Will print one off and get him to sign along with copies of his passport and license. If that's and issue for him, Im going to walk away no matter what. I might be going to learn a valuable lesson about buying cheap classics privately on Ebay! I'll report back when I can.

keithsfleet

You really tickled my interest when you mentioned it had a plate change in the 80s.
I'm also shocked no one else has asked this...
What is the car?

Agricola

keithsfleet wrote: »

What is the car?

Porsche 924

Ok well I went over to meet the guy and view the car. Turns out I was worried unnecessarily. He was completely honest. He brought his licence along, gave me a copy and had a fair bit of history along with MOT receipts he'd paid for recently. All names and addresses were a match. I got him to sign a bill of sale for me, he was happy to. When we did the deal, I gave him a lift back to his place and he asked me in for tea!

The car is a '79 924. Body is rust free, paintwork only in need of a clean and polish, except for the roof/sunroof which is in need of a respray. It recently passed it's MOT but brakes arent great, may need new pads/shoes. She came with a set of not bad looking aftermarket alloys, but 5 original satin black Porsche alloys were in the boot in great nick, plus a few small spares the guy bought but didnt get to fit. Made a 200 plus mile journey to Pembroke and not a bother. Happy out!

He's sending on the logbook when it comes back to him, and Ive to send him his tax disk!

Ill post some pics in the other thread later on.

mgbgt1978

Best of luck with the Porsche.......a bit of decent summer weather this year and you should have a good few chances to enjoy driving it

keithsfleet

Congratulations on the purchase.
I wish you happy smiles for miles motoring.

mathepac

keithsfleet wrote: »

Congratulations on the purchase.
I wish you happy smiles for miles motoring.

+1 Must all have a spin Photies soon?

Agricola

Thanks lads.... heres some piccies from the Classic forum

johnnydeep

my guess would be that he had bought the car with tax on it and when he realised he was selling it to somebody in Ireland he realised he would be able to reclaim the tax. but in order to do so he would have to have the car registered in his name. good luck with the car. but they really did do **** interiors in the 80's

keithsfleet

Might I be so cheeky as to ask how much?

Agricola

Nail on head Johnny. I wish you had posted that before I went to England!

keithsfleet wrote: »

Might I be so cheeky as to ask how much?

I didnt actually win the ebay auction, got outbid last second. Emailed him to say Id be willing to go abit higher. He did up a new listing to make it official. In the end I went up £200 and he came down £250 from his reserve price. So thats £1100. Considering I got a set of original alloys, afew parts in the boot that would cost over 100 to buy myself and even a Haynes manual Im happy enough.