Irish 9 and 10 slot.

jacothelad

It isn't so long ago that Ireland didn't have a decent back up to O'Gara once dHump retired. Now we seem to be pretty well stocked with Sexton, Madigan, Keatley all being the real deal and with Jackson learning his trade rapidly. JJH also is clearly a talent to be nurtured. Also, I see Steenson had yet another blinder for Exeter in demolishing L.I. all on his own it seems.

Luke Marshall also is a very good 10 but obviously is unlikely to get any opportunities in that position with Ulster.

Then we have Olding who seems to be a superb talent at 10, 12, 13 and 15. With his pace and balance, I've no doubt he could play 11 and 14 if needed. The only hindrance to his future might be that he isn't really big by modern standards and so in the modern game may have to settle for playing 10. I'm sure there are other young 10s in academies who will emerge.

If only we had the same deluge of talent at 9. Reddan and Boss are at the tail end of their careers. Murray is o.k. Not a world beater. Paul Marshall isn't a starter - a great guy to bring on against tired opponents though. Are Marmion, Cooney, McGrath, Heaney in the same 'league' as the young 10?

decisions

From what I have seen of McGrath and Marmion they both could be. I haven't seen enough of Heaney to comment and Cooney I'm not to sure about, next season will be very important for him.

budhabob

Think you are being harsh on Murray who has improved year on year to become an excellent player. No doubt his progression will continue.

lologram

budhabob wrote: »

Think you are being harsh on Murray who has improved year on year to become an excellent player. No doubt his progression will continue.

I don't think he is being "harsh". You're right that Murray is improving and may his progression continue but he is not in the top ranks of world scrum halves. He needs to improve considerably more to reach that.

Swiwi

lologram wrote: »

I don't think he is being "harsh". You're right that Murray is improving and may his progression continue but he is not in the top ranks of world scrum halves. He needs to improve considerably more to reach that.

Murray is decent enough. Top class scrumhalves are actually pretty rare - unless you're Australian. Farr-Jones => Gregan => Genia, they have been really lucky. SA too with Van der Weshuisen then Du Preez.

NZ has made do with a series of Murray-type SHs, and A Smith who looked good last year is underwhelming to date in 2013. We stupidly let Fotuaali slip away.

I'm struggling to think of an amazing SH from the North in the last 10 years, Phillips has had his moments, and likewise the Frenchies.

What I'm trying to say is I wouldn't be too harsh on Murray.

Kayless

lologram wrote: »

I don't think he is being "harsh". You're right that Murray is improving and may his progression continue but he is not in the top ranks of world scrum halves. He needs to improve considerably more to reach that.

Lads, we can't have a world class player in every position the only team that I think comes close to this is NZ

Murray is not push over, the guys only 23/4 and has improved so much this season, I would go as far as to say he was one of the reasons Munster won last week. He completely outclassed Care and should be much more improved come this years AIs (look at the amount of game time he is getting) so for me Murray is #1 although I also think McGrath looks like an excellent talent

.ak

Yeah but someone like Youngs would start for Ireland no bother. Ireland's strengths rely on a nippy 9 who can play quick phase ball. For that reason I'd love to see Marshall given more time whilst the pretenders get up to speed, ie marmion, McGrath, Cooney, Heaney etc.

I don't want to write off Murray either, he showed in the first 40 minutes of the France game just how good he can be. However, Ireland don't use the 9 as the play maker. If they did he'd have a chance of becoming something special. As it stands he's a 9 that'd fit into a French or Welsh side before he'd fit into a top class Irish side.

Before anyone lynches me... I still think he's a handy scrum half, but he's just not what Ireland need right now, but having said that he's all we got and that's what we need to work with.

Clareman

9 isn't a bad spot for us imvho, Murray is the starting 9, Marmion, Reddan and Boss back ups, then you have ToL and Stringer is you need emergency cover. Throw in a few younger players like Paul Marshall coming through in Ulster as well as Sheridan in Munster.

errlloyd

We can certainly dream of a quality player in every position. I think Ireland is unearthing more talent than ever, the impressive rise of Connacht in the last two seasons has been influential and in 5 years I fully expect us to have 4 world class franchise teams to pick from, each playing on average 35-40 Irish qualified professionals every season. So somewhere around 110 Irish professionals playing on the Island of Ireland.

You can see it from just how many decent Irish players are now having to go abroad to get game time, while they used to be Championship Journeymen, they're now Premiership starters. People like TOL, Stringer, Ian Humph, Hagan, Steenson, Whitten and Hayes

As for our current situation at 9, I think Cooney and Marmion can make it to where Reddan was. I don't see a world beater.

.ak

Clareman wrote: »

9 isn't a bad spot for us imvho, Murray is the starting 9, Marmion, Reddan and Boss back ups, then you have ToL and Stringer is you need emergency cover. Throw in a few younger players like Paul Marshall coming through in Ulster as well as Sheridan in Munster.

Paul Marshall isn't actually young funnily enough, although I can see why a lot of people get that impression.

Name another 6N team that Murray would start for.

Name another 6N team that Murray would sub for.

We are not in good health at 9. Murray is getting better, but he's still a not-as-good-Phillips and Phillips isn't really a scrum half anyway.

I'm hoping we see something from Marmion, Cooney, McGrath or Heaney up north that can inject some real Stringer ('06) pace into our backline.

.ak

As I said before I actually think Murray would get on the French team, he's a great play maker and has a handy boot, France don't mind SHs that take their time but he doesn't suit Ireland.

Not a chance.

Para and Yachvili couldn't even get a go!

Hype710

Stuart Olding, Ireland's answer to Matt Giteau?

its_phil

He's started 6 games lads. Can we relax. No doubt he is an amazing talent who I can't wait to see next week in Galway, but can we see him play week in week out over a long period before calling him the new anyone.

Cracking prospect who was excellent against the Dragons, but questioning whether McGrath or Marmion are up to his standard is a little premature for my liking.

Mahatma Geansai

Deleted User wrote: »

Name another 6N team that Murray would start for.

Name another 6N team that Murray would sub for.

We are not in good health at 9. Murray is getting better, but he's still a not-as-good-Phillips and Phillips isn't really a scrum half anyway.

I'm hoping we see something from Marmion, Cooney, McGrath or Heaney up north that can inject some real Stringer ('06) pace into our backline.

He'd be pretty neck and neck with Phillips for Wales and would be on the bench at least. He's bench for England and push Youngs for the starting jersey. He's start for Scotland and Italy. France is difficult because they look for more from their 9 (namely kicking), but he is more consistent than their options.

The criticism Murray comes in for is completely baseless. He's been brilliant for Munster this year Racing game aside and should/will be third in line for the Lions jersey.

Mahatma Geansai

.ak wrote: »

As I said before I actually think Murray would get on the French team, he's a great play maker and has a handy boot, France don't mind SHs that take their time but he doesn't suit Ireland.

I don't think many people here realise that there is more the scrumhalf play than just flinging the ball out straight away to the nearest man; this is where Reddan falls down and why he is often considered headless. The SH has to control the tempo of the game and know when to speed up and slowdown. There is no/little point passing the ball out when the attacking line isn't set.

jamiedav2011

I'd agree. Murray's improvement has been impressive for me this year.
When you consider he's younger than Madigan at a similarly pivotal position, and starting HEC and international, it's a very steep learning curve.

He's taken control a lot more this year, and has some key performances. I'd be happy with his progression curve. Don't get the criticism at all, and with a bit of luck, he may sneak into Lions contention. Saying he wouldn't start or bench for another 6N team is frankly ridiculous.

What features of Murray's game are above any of the following;

Phillips
Knoyle
Youngs
Care
Laidlaw

Happy to discuss this in detail. If you can detail any of the reasons why you think Murray is a better scrum half than these players I'll be impressed.

jamiedav2011

Deleted User wrote: »

What features of Murray's game are above any of the following;

Phillips
Knoyle
Youngs
Care
Laidlaw

Happy to discuss this in detail. If you can detail any of the reasons why you think Murray is a better scrum half than these players I'll be impressed.

Emmet, it's a futile argument, but I know I'd rather have Murray as my 9 than Care, Knoyle (?) or Laidlaw.

Are you conveniently forgetting the respective performances of Care and CM last week?

As i say, nowhere near the finished article, but in games like Argentina, Wales and England he's put in some good, leading performances this year. Plus, having ROG outside him can't be much of a help.

In any case, at the moment he's by far and away the best option we have at international level.

rrpc

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I don't think many people here realise that there is more the scrumhalf play than just flinging the ball out straight away to the nearest man; this is where Reddan falls down and why he is often considered headless. The SH has to control the tempo of the game and know when to speed up and slowdown. There is no/little point passing the ball out when the attacking line isn't set.

There are two sides to that though. If you're slow getting to the ruck, it usually means more forwards have to get in to shore up possession leaving less options for the attacking line and everything slows down as the others shuffle into position. Get in quick and there are less needed and more options available. Do it through enough phases and the defense gets disorganised and gaps and mismatches start to appear.

What is futile about it?

I'm asking for a balanced discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of his game.

It's also irrelevant if he's the best that we have at international level because none of the players I've asked for a comparison to are available to us as a national side.

If you can't be analytic about it, just steer clear of analytic conversation.

jamiedav2011

Deleted User wrote: »

What is futile about it?

I'm asking for a balanced discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of his game.

It's also irrelevant if he's the best that we have at international level because none of the players I've asked for a comparison to are available to us as a national side.

If you can't be analytic about it, just steer clear of analytic conversation.

It's futile because you have your views set, as you've said already, so anything any replier will say will be rubbished by yourself. How did you 'analyse' Murray's performance against the teams I've named and last week?

I've no problem steering clear of you, but if you can't be unbiased about it, perhaps tone it down slightly with the patronising advice?

Tavis fcuking Knoyle!

hype101

Being a fan of the "big 12" I would really like to see Olding developed as a 10.. Ulster have Wallace, Luke Marshall and Chris Farrell for 12 and no real back up at 10.. Out and out pace at 10 is such a weapon.. Can anyone speak to his distribution skills from 10?.. How was he in the interpros for example

Mahatma Geansai

Deleted User wrote: »

What is futile about it?

I'm asking for a balanced discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of his game.

It's also irrelevant if he's the best that we have at international level because none of the players I've asked for a comparison to are available to us as a national side.

If you can't be analytic about it, just steer clear of analytic conversation.

You're hardly being analytical either. All you're doing is issuing a broad statement and asking others to prove me wrong. You're mind is made up regarding Murray and I'd assume it has been for 2 years.

Lelantos

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What features of Murray's game are above any of the following;

Phillips
Knoyle
Youngs
Care
Laidlaw

Happy to discuss this in detail. If you can detail any of the reasons why you think Murray is a better scrum half than these players I'll be impressed.

What have any of those players got to do with the title of this thread?

Hype710

The most frustrating aspect of Murray's play for me is when we make a line break, big space out wide yet he he takes it on; he doesn't have the explosive pace of a Care to exploit it and the move breaks down because our scrum half is at the bottom of a ruck. His duty should be to get to the breakdown ASAP and clear the ball to the 10. He's still got some way to go IMO.

jamiedav2011

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

It's futile because you have your views set, as you've said already, so anything any replier will say will be rubbished by yourself. How did you 'analyse' Murray's performance against the teams I've named and last week?

I've no problem steering clear of you, but if you can't be unbiased about it, perhaps tone it down slightly with the patronising advice?

Tavis fcuking Knoyle!

What are you talking about?

I'm not rubbishing anyone's reasons. I'm questioning people's opinions. If you have an opinion that you can back up with any reasoning then we can discuss this.

Unfortunately nobody (yourself included) has given any particular assets that we can discuss.

Here is a critical and honest description of Conor Murray's scrum half abilities.

He has moderate to good passing, rarely throws a rubbish pass though, so at least is consistent in that.

His kicking is quite good, his box kicking in particular can be spot on.

His ability to marshall a pack is weak. He talks far less than scrum halfs like Stringer and Boss who scream their packs into correct positions.

His decision making is slow. He approaches a ball, gets set, and then looks for an option far too often. Stringer, Reddan and Marshall are evidence that players can be finding their options before they are over the ball. This ability or inability to multi-task is really hurting his chances to develop into a top scrum half. He has gotten steadily better at this though.

His decision making is also poor. There are too often times when he takes the ball from the base of a scrum/maul and goes down a dark corridor with the rest of the team lined up the other side.

His defence is excellent. A feature that a scrum half shouldn't ever really need to rely on (other than an ability to sweep and read an opposition line).

Analytic criticism. Compare these traits with Knoyle if you wish.

Hype710

hype101 wrote: »

Being a fan of the "big 12" I would really like to see Olding developed as a 10.. Ulster have Wallace, Luke Marshall and Chris Farrell for 12 and no real back up at 10.. Out and out pace at 10 is such a weapon.. Can anyone speak to his distribution skills from 10?.. How was he in the interpros for example

He played for Ulster at 10 a while back and was OK. I don't think he's a 10 though, and Ulster are rumoured to be bringing back James McKinney to act as Jackson's back up which is shrewd IMO. Olding looks perfect for me at 12, and could yet leap frog Luke Marshall, or at least offer a different type of player and allow for rotation.

Lelantos

Lelantos wrote: »

What have any of those players got to do with the title of this thread?

I was contending the issue that we are strong at 9 currently.

I asked people to name other 6N teams where our starting scrum half would either start or bench for as a method to identify whether or not we actually are strong (relatively speaking).

Please keep up.

Mahatma Geansai

Deleted User wrote: »

I was contending the issue that we are strong at 9 currently.

I asked people to name other 6N teams where our starting scrum half would either start or bench for as a method to identify whether or not we actually are strong (relatively speaking).

Please keep up.

You are making the assertion that he wouldn't make the other teams. You have not in anyway backed up that assertion. You are looking for others to do that for you.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Deleted User wrote: »

Name another 6N team that Murray would start for.

Name another 6N team that Murray would sub for.

We are not in good health at 9. Murray is getting better, but he's still a not-as-good-Phillips and Phillips isn't really a scrum half anyway.

I'm hoping we see something from Marmion, Cooney, McGrath or Heaney up north that can inject some real Stringer ('06) pace into our backline.

Murray would probably start for Italy sub for England Scotland and maybe Wales

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

You are making the assertion that he wouldn't make the other teams. You have not in anyway backed up that assertion. You are looking for others to do that for you.

Usually when someone makes a claim and is called on it

e.g.
"We are strong at 9"

"Oh really, where else would our starting 9 play in the 6N teams?"

It's up to them to back it up.

Also, please see the post 2 posts before the one you've quoted above.

Buer

Murray has developed massively in the past year. He has turned into much more of a general as a scrum half and controls the game much more from scrum half than ROG does at 10. His passing is good. Not perfect but good. His physicality, athleticism and aggression are superb. His organising is improving and is solid. He ran the show last week for the third quarter against Quins. His kicking game is strong.

He's far from perfect but he's a strong scrum half and will improve more over the coming seasons. He is, by a distance, the best 9 in Ireland now. Will he go to Australia? I don't know, it's a close call. It will go between himself and Laidlaw, I suspect. If Gatland is only going with two outhalves, I think Laidlaw might get the nod due to his versatility and goal kicking. I wouldn't have any complaints if Murray went though.

Hagz

With regard to Olding, I think he's a fantastic prospect and I would love for him to end up at 10. His natural footballing ability is obvious when you watch him slot in at full-back, outside centre, out-half and inside centre. Great footwork and shows the ball in two hands with good timed offloads. I've seen him put in some great hits for a guy of his size. I think he's the same height as D'Arcy so staying at 12 isn't farfetched, but with Farrell and Marshall there, I can see him putting serious pressure on Paddy Jackson.

With regards to scrum-half, I'm actually pretty happy with Murray. I think he's regathered the form that he showed initially in his career, and he's a nice well rounded scrum-half. He has shown that he can be good with the boot, he's physical and he's capable of playing a high tempo game. That said, I would like more competition to emerge. Reddan, Boss, Marshall are just sort of current options without an eye to the long-term. Marshall for me is also far too unreliable for my liking. A great guy to have coming off the bench. Looking at Marmion, he looks like he could be a very neat scrum-half. A bit quicker than Murray. But for me Luke McGrath is someone I have high hopes for.

lologram

Swiwi wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is I wouldn't be too harsh on Murray.

Don't get me wrong, neither would I! I think he is a good and capable player. budhabob called him excellent though and said he thought jacothelad was being "harsh" on him - I didn't get that impression.

I think Murray is a good player, not an excellent one. I don't think that 9 is a position of particular strength in Ireland and some of our European compatriots are quite a bit stronger in that position.

bilston

Hagz wrote: »

With regard to Olding, I think he's a fantastic prospect and I would love for him to end up at 10. His natural footballing ability is obvious when you watch him slot in at full-back, outside centre, out-half and inside centre. Great footwork and shows the ball in two hands with good timed offloads. I've seen him put in some great hits for a guy of his size. I think he's the same height as D'Arcy so staying at 12 isn't farfetched, but with Farrell and Marshall there, I can see him putting serious pressure on Paddy Jackson.

To be honest I see Olding as a centre more than a 10 (albeit I've only seen him play 10 maybe twice) and actually if anything I would like to see him tried at 13 to see how he goes.

ScissorPaperRock

Deleted User wrote: »

Usually when someone makes a claim and is called on it

e.g.
"We are strong at 9"

"Oh really, where else would our starting 9 play in the 6N teams?"

It's up to them to back it up.

Also, please see the post 2 posts before the one you've quoted above.

In fairness, the counter-argument to that could be that the other 6N are also strong at 9.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

I don't think many people here realise that there is more the scrumhalf play than just flinging the ball out straight away to the nearest man; this is where Reddan falls down and why he is often considered headless. The SH has to control the tempo of the game and know when to speed up and slowdown. There is no/little point passing the ball out when the attacking line isn't set.

Agreed. However Murray is actually pretty terrible at adjusting the tempo of the game at will. When the game needs to be sped up he slows down.

trouttrout

It's gas how you have fellas falling over themselves to tell you how average Murray is when he's been consistently the best nine in Ireland this year

He's not Will Genia but we don't have a Will Genia being kept behind Murray.

trouttrout

Deleted User wrote: »

Name another 6N team that Murray would start for.

Name another 6N team that Murray would sub for.

We are not in good health at 9. Murray is getting better, but he's still a not-as-good-Phillips and Phillips isn't really a scrum half anyway.

I'm hoping we see something from Marmion, Cooney, McGrath or Heaney up north that can inject some real Stringer ('06) pace into our backline.

Have you seen Phillips this year? He's had an awful season

Podge_irl

trouttrout wrote: »

It's gas how you have fellas falling over themselves to tell you how average Murray is when he's been consistently the best nine in Ireland this year

There's an element of damning with feint praise to that accolade though. I agree he's been the best and by a margin (assuming we're ignoring RP), but I have been pretty frustrated with Leinster's scrum half play in general this season. He's definitely improving though.

I quite like the look of Marmion.

rrpc

I think a lot of the criticism or even analysis of players in an international context can be deemed moot because of the inability to determine the Kidney effect.

Let's see how Murray and many others who have come under criticism here fare under a new coaching ticket.

Grimebox

Bring back Stringer

trouttrout

trouttrout wrote: »

It's gas how you have fellas falling over themselves to tell you how average Murray is when he's been consistently the best nine in Ireland this year

He's not Will Genia but we don't have a Will Genia being kept behind Murray.

I'm not saying anything of the type. Try refute points as opposed to saying "Murray is great".

Murray being the best 9 in Ireland does not make him a great 9. I'm actually making that very point. That we're not anywhere near as well stocked for 9s as other nations.

And nobody is refuting him being the best 9 in Ireland either.

Detach, analyze, criticize or discuss.

trouttrout

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not saying anything of the type. Try refute points as opposed to saying "Murray is great".

Murray being the best 9 in Ireland does not make him a great 9. I'm actually making that very point. That we're not anywhere near as well stocked for 9s as other nations.

And nobody is refuting him being the best 9 in Ireland either.

Detach, analyze, criticize or discuss.

I never said he was a great nine. He's a good international nine in my mind though. Reads the game very well, eye for a break, good pass and sterling defense. Some issues with his speed of passing but it's improving all the time

I'd rather have him in my team than Mike Phillips or Danny Care

irishbucsfan

Murray is very good. He'd start for most clubs in Britain and for Connacht or Leinster.

We need better depth though. And the chance to see if Marmion is better. Marmion and McGrath might end up pushing Murray out of the international setup eventually.

Hagz

trouttrout wrote: »

It's gas how you have fellas falling over themselves to tell you how average Murray is when he's been consistently the best nine in Ireland this year

Isn't that the point of Jaco's post though? That our best 9 is simply average?

trouttrout

Hagz wrote: »

Isn't that the point of Jaco's post though? That our best 9 is simply average?

I think he's good enough for Ireland at the moment though. I mean we're not going to half world class players all over the park and tbh we've never had a world class nine

dtpc191991

bilston wrote: »

To be honest I see Olding as a centre more than a 10 (albeit I've only seen him play 10 maybe twice) and actually if anything I would like to see him tried at 13 to see how he goes.

Exactly. For me I could imagine a 2015 backline of

9. Mcgrath/Murray/Marmion/Marshall
10. Sexton/Madigan/Jackson/Keatly/Hanrahan
11. Gilroy/Fitzgerald/O'Dea/Zebo/Ohalloran
12. Marshall/Olding/Farrell/McSharry/Hanrahan
13. Olding/Cave/EOM/Griffin/Farrell
14. Bowe/Gilroy/Conway
15. Zebo/Kearney/Henshaw/Payne

trouttrout

trouttrout wrote: »

I'd rather have him in my team than Mike Phillips or Danny Care

why?