Double days

Kurt Godel

I did a moderately hard hour turbo yesterday at lunch, and was wrecked by the end of my evening swim session. Ultimately I know hard training when tired will be beneficial, but I missed some of the swim times towards the very end, so perhaps this wasn't the best day to choose to do train two-a-day.

What do people do for double days? I'm not talking about bricks here, rather a session in the morning and then one in the evening. Should there be a difference in intensity between them, or is it more beneficial stressing the system by training the second one tired and hard?

BTH

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I did a moderately hard hour turbo yesterday at lunch, and was wrecked by the end of my evening swim session. Ultimately I know hard training when tired will be beneficial, but I missed some of the swim times towards the very end, so perhaps this wasn't the best day to choose to do train two-a-day.

What do people do for double days? I'm not talking about bricks here, rather a session in the morning and then one in the evening. Should there be a difference in intensity between them, or is it more beneficial stressing the system by training the second one tired and hard?

Its very difficult to train hard twice a day. Its also very difficult to train hard everyday. I find it particularly hard to swim as a second activity of the day. Mondays swim, Tuesdays Turbo and my weekend run are my key sessions of the week. All I do before the Monday evening swim is a very easy jog at lunch. Tuesday morning, once I'm healthy, will be back to yoga before the hard turbo in the evening. Long hard weekend run will be the only thing that day. Theres certainly benefit to training tired, but you need to be fresh for your key sessions. But you first need to identify those key sessions.

miller82

i'd do double days regularly
example :
Tuesday : Morning: Run to work - Evening :Swim session
Wednesday : Morning: turbo or since its got brighter mountain cycle - Evening : gym session & stretching
Thursday : Morning : Swim session Evening : running training

catweazle

Unlike you with Hitler on the pool deck on thursdays I have no key swim sessions in a week, I have my spreadsheet and I do my best to hold the times prescribed on evenings i can get to the pool. I have hard runs on tuesdays and thursdays and hard bikes on wednesdays and fridays in a perfect world. Weekends are a long bike and run in a perfect world

Probably mondays are my best swim days as I cant train during the day that day so the swim is the only session.

I don't have as much time as other years but the early morning swims last year was probably the easiest way to get a double session in. Unless there was large amounts of kickboard involved I was usually able to get the bike/run in later that day fairly in fairly ok shape.

Its hard to put a good swim session in after a bike or run

interested

catweazle wrote: »

Unlike you with Hitler on the pool deck

you should be so lucky


re: double days - its largely about intensity and ability to rest between sessions imho

a life time ago - no bother - but there was almost 8/10 hours between sessions and the intensity varied but was mostly about aerobic endurance and strength
but swimming is a non-impact sport and I personally believe, easier to recover from.


Doing a 60+ min turbo session 4 or 5 hours before a coached swim session which has traditionally been the primary swim session of the week ... well, you know how clever that was and it wasn't all that hard.

Oryx

I do double days all the time. If I have a swim planned, if I can I swim first, because I find it harder to swim after a bike or run because the legs will still be carrying a lot of the fatigue.

Generally my double days will be turbo in the morning, run in the evening or vice versa. I never do a bike or run of over an hour on a double day (a swim could be 90 mins). If at all possible I would avoid doing two high impact sessions on the same day. You'll survive it if you do, but you're asking for trouble if you make it a regular thing.

pgibbo

Nearly all my double days have a swim in them. From experience I always try to do the swim first thing in the morning as it's easier to recover from the swim. Plus I find that the swim will be a lot tougher after a bike or a run than the bike or run are after a hard swim session.

That's easier said than done, especially if you have coached sessions to attend.

peter kern

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I did a moderately hard hour turbo yesterday at lunch, and was wrecked by the end of my evening swim session. Ultimately I know hard training when tired will be beneficial, but I missed some of the swim times towards the very end, so perhaps this wasn't the best day to choose to do train two-a-day.

What do people do for double days? I'm not talking about bricks here, rather a session in the morning and then one in the evening. Should there be a difference in intensity between them, or is it more beneficial stressing the system by training the second one tired and hard?

to me it would appear that you made loads of swim progress over the winter now its time to focus more on bike and run and dont worry if you cant hit swim times as long as you have 1 key swim a week.
After all you are a triathlete.
Those days a poul bouys seems to be a bit overused (i guess its poul bouy fashion time right now i am sure soon somebody is going to say but Sutton uses them all the time than I say do you guys train 30 hours a week and swim 25k a week ... but on a day like that when legs are really tired its a good idea ,to use them.

personally iam a strong believer that swims are mostly done in the morning for triathletes but if thats not possible not to worry .
as for the rest their is a lot good stuff in Bth s post.

for the other question one can certainly do 2 hard sessions if you compose them correctly and know what you want to get out of it. adapt intensity and rest accordingly. on the other hand how many hard session does one need to do a week so it dosnt have to be done and dependa on a few factors (what work you do. lifestyle ,family situation ,years in tri, age etc )

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Sure 2 sessions a day is like a rest day:cool:

Kurt Godel

Some great answers so far, very helpful stuff. I can't move the key Thurs swim session from its evening slot, so will not double that day in future- its probably the most important session for me in the week.

peter kern wrote: »

to me it would appear that you made loads of swim progress over the winter now its time to focus more on bike and run and dont worry if you cant hit swim times as long as you have 1 key swim a week.
After all you are a triathlete.

This was part of my thinking in doing two sessions yesterday- swim training has gone well, I need to focus more on bike and run, so subconsciously I was willing to let the key swim session suffer . Instead, I'll drop to 3 swim sessions weekly, and keep the key Thurs swim session free that day.

Liberty Orange Urination wrote: »

Sure 2 sessions a day is like a rest day:cool:

I'd explode long before I ever approach your level of training Fran

peter kern

do turbo before work .... sleep at lunch ....

peter kern

pgibbo wrote: »

Nearly all my double days have a swim in them. From experience I always try to do the swim first thing in the morning as it's easier to recover from the swim. Plus I find that the swim will be a lot tougher after a bike or a run than the bike or run are after a hard swim session.

That's easier said than done, especially if you have coached sessions to attend.

To this I would say why are coached sessions not planned when they make most sense ? thursday evening as a key session for example is not a very well planned swim in the first place in the world of triathlon when you work monday to friday.

Oryx

peter kern wrote: »

To this I would say why are coached sessions not planned when they make most sense ? thursday evening as a key session for example is not a very well planned swim in the first place in the world of triathlon when you work monday to friday.

Because they are usually club sessions and you have to fit them in sometime convenient to the majority.

And in my experience the majority dont like getting up at 5:30 to swim!

peter kern

than fmonday or friday good days for evening but tue and thursday should be hard bike or run sessions.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

To this I would say why are coached sessions not planned when they make most sense ? thursday evening as a key session for example is not a very well planned swim in the first place in the world of triathlon when you work monday to friday.

Would agree, fairly sh1t time for it.

PGF

peter kern wrote: »

thursday evening as a key session for example is not a very well planned swim in the first place in the world of triathlon when you work monday to friday.

tunney wrote: »

Would agree, fairly sh1t time for it.

Why is this? Something to do with fatigue building throughout the working week?

Mos Eisley

Hi Folks

Please comment on my typical weekly training plan now the longer evenings are here. This changes from time to time to accommodate races and rest days which usually happen around races. I generally take a rest day every 7/8 days
I compete in sprint triathlons, do some road racing 5k, 10k and the odd half marathon. As you can see I train twice a day 5 days a week, the swim session last about 30/35 mins.

Am I doing too much/little? What changes can I make to gain most benefit from my training?

I work 8:30 - 5

Any advice positive or negative would be graciously accepted and appreciated!

Mon
Lunch: swim
Evening: Gym (weights and core)

Tue
Lunch: swim
Evening: 50k bike

Wed
Lunch: swim
Evening: Track running session

Thursday
Lunch: Gym (weights and core)
Evening: run 10 miles +

Friday
Lunch: swim
Evening: 40k bike

Sat
Long Run

Sun
Long cycle

KentuckyPete

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I did a moderately hard hour turbo yesterday at lunch, and was wrecked by the end of my evening swim session. Ultimately I know hard training when tired will be beneficial, but I missed some of the swim times towards the very end, so perhaps this wasn't the best day to choose to do train two-a-day.

What do people do for double days? I'm not talking about bricks here, rather a session in the morning and then one in the evening. Should there be a difference in intensity between them, or is it more beneficial stressing the system by training the second one tired and hard?

I do a double on a Friday KG. My hard running session is on a Wednesday and my rest day is thursday so on Friday morning I do a loose(ish) run at around 5k race pace + 40 sec /km for maybe 15km. In the evening I do a swim session. The rest of the week I do just the one session.
Sat - Long run
Sun - Long bike
Mon - Swim
Tue Easy run
Wed - Intervals or tempo run
Thurs - rest
Fri - Run in the morning Swim in the evening

I'm not getting enough in on the bike at present but am travelling during the week so I'll have to suck it up for now.

peter kern

it would be more for recovery reasons and not getting too tired in the first place
put it this way.
you train hard over the weekend so friday and monday legs want a bit of a rest (great swim days) tue and thursday lend itself nicely for leg focused tough key sessions.
swimming being more techniqual lends itself really well for the morning when you are more fresh and not tired form a tough work day and able to focus on your stroke ( every single swim stroke is a technique session in itself. Also swim always the earliest on race day so good to get used to perform as first sport of the day)


anyway their is 1000 ways around it and it would also depend what your strongest and weakest dicipline are. A strong swimmer would usually be able to still pull off a good swim when tired as their swim sroke is more " drilled in" . a weaker swimmer struggles much more.

and of ocurse their is the reall live and if thursday is the only day than thursday it is. espacially for a fitness triathlelete.if you want to be the best you can be than you try to plan the week the best you can be and being lazy in the morning is not a option if you want to be competetive.......

mloc123

Liberty Orange Urination wrote: »

Sure 2 sessions a day is like a rest day:cool:

How is that burnout going for you

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

mloc123 wrote: »

How is that burnout going for you

Better than being a couch potatoe

sconhome

Mos Eisley wrote: »

Hi Folks

Please comment on my typical weekly training plan

Probably easier to start a new thread on this or a training log, much easier to follow the replies and see specific answers to your questions.

mloc123

Liberty Orange Urination wrote: »

Better than being a couch potatoe

Couch potatoe has its benefits.

Mos Eisley

amphkingwest wrote: »

Probably easier to start a new thread on this or a training log, much easier to follow the replies and see specific answers to your questions.

Thanks amphkingwest, I'll create a new thread

Cheers

zico10

Mos Eisley wrote: »

Thanks amphkingwest, I'll create a new thread

Cheers

When you do you should be far more descriptive of your training sessions. In the way you have outlined them, it is very hard to say much about them.

enzeder

Kurt Godel wrote: »

I did a moderately hard hour turbo yesterday at lunch, and was wrecked by the end of my evening swim session. Ultimately I know hard training when tired will be beneficial, but I missed some of the swim times towards the very end, so perhaps this wasn't the best day to choose to do train two-a-day.

What do people do for double days? I'm not talking about bricks here, rather a session in the morning and then one in the evening. Should there be a difference in intensity between them, or is it more beneficial stressing the system by training the second one tired and hard?

I regularly do double days but whenever I do, swimming is first.
I did a backwards triathlon last year (Run-Bike-Swim) with a pool swim and I've never found it so difficult to swim in my life. After the run and bike my legs were full of lactic and it felt like I was trying to drag logs through the water behind me. I reckon swimming in the evening following a hard bike or run session earlier in the day will result in a less severe version of the same thing.
By contrast, swimming before a bike or run session shouldn't have anywhere near as much of a detrimental effect on the second session. I've never noticed one no matter how hard the swim.

Green&Red

I do regular double sessions and I find the key is a little kip before the second, even 20 minutes makes all the difference. Typically you're up at 6/6.30 for the early session so you're tired anyway, coupled with a tough session, a sleep makes all the difference