Built for speed, not for comfort...

colm_gti

So I have an alu frame that I'm pretty much happy with...

Geometry wise, it's comfortable, I've grown into it like the arse groove in a sofa
It's relatively light @ 10kgs (60cm frame, shimano 105, aksiums), and anyway I could do with losing a few more kgs before I worry about bike weight
It looks good, to me anyway....

and

It's stiff, which is good on occasion (i.e. when I'm TRYING to sprint and/or climb), especially considering I'm no featherweight at 85kgs, but it's also the only thing that bothers me about it...

I've never tried a carbon frame, but I'm led to believe they're a bit more compliant over rough surfaces while maintaining stiffness (at least the good ones are). It's most noticeable on those dead roads, I feel like the energy is being sucked out of me, and can't help but think a carbon frame would be a bit nicer over these.

Now, I'm not in any position to upgrade my frame to something worthwhile, but I was wondering if there are ways around this? Carbon seatpost? Wheels with higher spoke count? A glass of HTFU?

Would be interested to hear your opinions on whether the above are worthwhile, particularly as I am in the early stages of picking up a pair of racing clinchers and am tempted by the high spoke count open pro on shimano hub options.

Donie75

Hi, I bought a lovely secondhand Dolan Hercules SE for €300 here on boards last year and I swapped my 105 groupset over. I had Mavic Open Pro's so they went really well with it. The bike is nice and stiff but I don't seem to get any of the road buzz I got from my previous specialized alloy bike.
I can't fault the bike and it cost fairly small money.
You will often see good value carbon frames pop up on boards, adverts, donedeal or maybe keep an eye on Planet X or Dolan for deals

Hmmzis

For the hands I've found that a nice fluffy bar tape can make quite a bit of a difference. A carbon seat post is nice to have but the one I have is not the most compliant and I'm not sure what a good one would do.

Have you tried 25mm tyres for the bad surface races? Most will take up to 9 bar anyway for the smooth stuff with the added benefit of being able to run them at lower pressures for the rough stuff. Was reading an article yesterday that a BMC rider at the Paris-Roubaix was using 28mm tyres at 6ish bar.

HTFU is allways good . Given your power output and potential for it the draggy stuff and rough surfaces could be your strong points. Both, drags and dead surfaces, have a tendency to lessen the group drafting effect and the total power output of a rider becomes more important.

Harrybelafonte

I moved from alu frame with cheap alu seatpost etc to the alu Orbea with a carbon seatpost (cheap as well I'd say, but still). I do think it makes a difference. I'd be a "little" heavier than yourself and very rarely get any pain in that area.

My answer is hardly scientific, but I'd say it's worth a try.

Edit: after seeing above post re tyre pressure, I may as well add that I run 23 Zaffiros at 120psi all the time. Not exactly pliant.

At the same time, I'm thinking of the FM066SL frame recommended to Lenny a few weeks back for next year. Not even sure why tbh, the Orbea seems fine for what I'm capable of at the moment.

petethedrummer

I think fatter tyres at lower pressure with reasonable compliant sidewalls make the most differnce on an alu bike.

AstraMonti

petethedrummer wrote: »

I think fatter tyres at lower pressure with reasonable compliant sidewalls make the most differnce on an alu bike.

This. And I think carbon stem/handlebars/seatpost and saddle rails can help, obviously at a cost. If you are around 1.85-1.90 you are welcome to borrow my bike and see how a carbon feel likes (albeit a cheap carbon frame).

DirkVoodoo

There is a M/L Giant TCR Advanced for sale on adverts. Probably the best bang-for-your buck carbon frame you can buy (next to a Canyon), certainly the best carbon frame I've had the pleasure of riding.

I shouldn't be tempting you like that, but if it was an M I'd be all over it.

Briando

AstraMonti wrote: »

This. And I think carbon stem/handlebars/seatpost and saddle rails can help, obviously at a cost. If you are around 1.85-1.90 you are welcome to borrow my bike and see how a carbon feel likes (albeit a cheap carbon frame).

Likewise if you are a bit smaller than that, you are welcome to take my CF Canyon out for an hour or 3. When I went from alu to carbon it just felt so much more responsive, I didn't notice any more comfort.

colm_gti

AstraMonti wrote: »

This. And I think carbon stem/handlebars/seatpost and saddle rails can help, obviously at a cost. If you are around 1.85-1.90 you are welcome to borrow my bike and see how a carbon feel likes (albeit a cheap carbon frame).

Briando wrote: »

Likewise if you are a bit smaller than that, you are welcome to take my CF Canyon out for an hour or 3. When I went from alu to carbon it just felt so much more responsive, I didn't notice any more comfort.

Thanks for the offers lads, but I'm looking for reasons to NOT have to splash out on a carbon frame, at least not before I pick up a CX bike :P

Though I may take ye up on your offers if my situation changes later in the season.

colm_gti

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

There is a M/L Giant TCR Advanced for sale on adverts. Probably the best bang-for-your buck carbon frame you can buy (next to a Canyon), certainly the best carbon frame I've had the pleasure of riding.

I shouldn't be tempting you like that, but if it was an M I'd be all over it.

Looks nice, but again, way out of budget for me at the minute

colm_gti

Donie75 wrote: »

Hi, I bought a lovely secondhand Dolan Hercules SE for €300 here on boards last year and I swapped my 105 groupset over. I had Mavic Open Pro's so they went really well with it. The bike is nice and stiff but I don't seem to get any of the road buzz I got from my previous specialized alloy bike.
I can't fault the bike and it cost fairly small money.
You will often see good value carbon frames pop up on boards, adverts, donedeal or maybe keep an eye on Planet X or Dolan for deals

Cheers, will keep an eye out, though I would rather buy a new frame...

Hmmzis wrote: »

For the hands I've found that a nice fluffy bar tape can make quite a bit of a difference. A carbon seat post is nice to have but the one I have is not the most compliant and I'm not sure what a good one would do.

Have you tried 25mm tyres for the bad surface races? Most will take up to 9 bar anyway for the smooth stuff with the added benefit of being able to run them at lower pressures for the rough stuff. Was reading an article yesterday that a BMC rider at the Paris-Roubaix was using 28mm tyres at 6ish bar.

HTFU is allways good . Given your power output and potential for it the draggy stuff and rough surfaces could be your strong points. Both, drags and dead surfaces, have a tendency to lessen the group drafting effect and the total power output of a rider becomes more important.

Never tried 25mm tyres, maybe I'll pick up a set

Aye, would definitely be more suited to drags than climbs, just looking to limit fatigue on such surfaces

Forgot to say I already have FSA carbon bars and a KCNC scandium stem

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I moved from alu frame with cheap alu seatpost etc to the alu Orbea with a carbon seatpost (cheap as well I'd say, but still). I do think it makes a difference. I'd be a "little" heavier than yourself and very rarely get any pain in that area.

My answer is hardly scientific, but I'd say it's worth a try.

Edit: after seeing above post re tyre pressure, I may as well add that I run 23 Zaffiros at 120psi all the time. Not exactly pliant.

At the same time, I'm thinking of the FM066SL frame recommended to Lenny a few weeks back for next year. Not even sure why tbh, the Orbea seems fine for what I'm capable of at the moment.

That's what I'm trying to figure out, if a carbon seatpost will make a difference. Some of those far eastern frames do look tempting, and a little more within budget...

petethedrummer wrote: »

I think fatter tyres at lower pressure with reasonable compliant sidewalls make the most differnce on an alu bike.

The bike is mainly used for racing, so I've always used 23mm conti GP4000s or GP4 Season....all my clinchers have GP4 season and tubs have GP4000 at the minute...maybe I'd be better with 25mm GP4000s, they're more compliant than tyres with the vectran sidewalls right?

Harrybelafonte

colm_gti wrote: »

That's what I'm trying to figure out, if a carbon seatpost will make a difference. Some of those far eastern frames do look tempting, and a little more within budget...

Yeah, sorry, not much help there. I do recall though being told that a carbon seatpost would make a difference, but that it would depend on how much of it was showing i.e. the more that showed the more supple it could be. I guess bigger tyres with lower pressure? Then again, considering the price of some of the carbon seatposts on CRC, they may end up being the cheaper option.

petethedrummer

I went from a 27.2mm carbon seatpost to a 31.6mm Alu one. It should be much less comfortable but I didn't really notice a difference. I notice or at least I think I notice when I put larger tyres on.

I'm not the most sensitive person when it comes to how a bike feels. Some people say they can tell what type of tube they are running or if a tube has a patch on it. I hardly can tell what bike I'm on. The carbon seatpost might work out for you, narrower carbon is supposed to be more forgiving as it can flex more.

Some people notice seatpost flex though:

Blanco riders have said that the integrated seatmast on the Giant Defy Advanced SL endurance bike actually flexes so much under load that they have to adjust their saddle tilt to compensate

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gallery/article/paris-roubaix-race-tech-massive-gallery-36957/18

Not sure what the Giant stiffness measurer guy would have to say about that.

Mycroft H

What's the biggest width tyres you can take? 25mm?

What about a carbon fork?

colm_gti

BX 19 wrote: »

What's the biggest width tyres you can take? 25mm?

What about a carbon fork?

Yeah I'd say 25mm tyres would be the limit to be honest, it's pretty tight with 23mm.

Bike has a carbon fork already

There's really only one answer...new bike...

AstraMonti

colm_gti wrote: »

There's really only one answer...new bike...

You knew that before you even open the thread

I can lend you a carbon post/saddle/stem/bars if you like to have a go in your bike to see if it will make a difference.

lennymc

colm_gti wrote: »

There's really only one answer...new bike...

this is the answer to all of cycling's great questions.

Briando

colm_gti wrote: »

Yeah I'd say 25mm tyres would be the limit to be honest, it's pretty tight with 23mm.

Bike has a carbon fork already

There's really only one answer...new bike...

Canyon usually have a sale during the TdF and knock 20% off the price of the frames and some bikes. You know you want to...

colm_gti

BX 19 wrote: »

What's the biggest width tyres you can take? 25mm?

To update this, I think I'm limited to 23mm tyres, there is feic all clearance even with 23mm...when a bit of mud builds up under the rear caliper/frame the wheel rubs against it...damn race specific geometry!

I might be in a position to upgrade my frame, but my budget would be an ABSOLUTE MAX of €600, and I'm not sure there are any carbon frames that would be a big enough upgrade over the current frame to warrant that sort of cash, though I'm open to correction...

Maybe I'd be as well to just upgrade to a carbon seatpost, keep racing it as it is, and put the money away for a rainy day...

lennymc

colm_gti wrote: »

and put the money away for a rainy day...

it rains quite a lot in ireland

colm_gti

lennymc wrote: »

it rains quite a lot in ireland

You better get used to cleaning the built up muck out from under your rear caliper/frame now too with that fancy BMC

lennymc

colm_gti wrote: »

You better get used to cleaning the built up muck out from under your rear caliper/frame now too with that fancy BMC

cleaning time eats into riding time.

funkyjebus

colm_gti wrote: »

To update this, I think I'm limited to 23mm tyres, there is feic all clearance even with 23mm...when a bit of mud builds up under the rear caliper/frame the wheel rubs against it...damn race specific geometry!

I might be in a position to upgrade my frame, but my budget would be an ABSOLUTE MAX of €600, and I'm not sure there are any carbon frames that would be a big enough upgrade over the current frame to warrant that sort of cash, though I'm open to correction...

Maybe I'd be as well to just upgrade to a carbon seatpost, keep racing it as it is, and put the money away for a rainy day...

I have a Ribble Sportive Bianco (same as the Gran Fondo) which both cost below €600. Its a 58cm and you are welcome to try it to see if there is any worth to you upgrading.

DirkVoodoo

Yeah, I'd probably hang on a little longer, invest in stocks or whatever Gordon Gecko would do...600 isn't at that magic number where you would start to see real improvement. I think you would really have to get over the 1k mark, that's just my own opinion now: Canyon Ultimate CF, Planet X N2A, second hand TCR Advanced *cough*

Although the Ribble Stealth isn't far outside your range.

Honestly, if you can get 400 euro together quick, jump on that TCR.

But there are always good second hand bargains popping up so I wouldn't panic either!

colm_gti

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Yeah, I'd probably hang on a little longer, invest in stocks or whatever Gordon Gecko would do...600 isn't at that magic number where you would start to see real improvement. I think you would really have to get over the 1k mark, that's just my own opinion now: Canyon Ultimate CF, Planet X N2A, second hand TCR Advanced *cough*

Although the Ribble Stealth isn't far outside your range.

Honestly, if you can get 400 euro together quick, jump on that TCR.

But there are always good second hand bargains popping up so I wouldn't panic either!

Strongly considered making an offer on that TCR alright, but I think it maybe a TINY bit too small for me (I'm 6'2"). Maybe with a 130mm stem it might be grand, but it would end up being an expensive mistake if it didn't. And also, it doesn't appear to come with a stem, so I'd have to factor in another ~€100 for a giant contact od2 stem, as none of my stems would fit the 1 1/4" steerer...

Maybe I'll just hold out or buy another set of wheels...

colm_gti

funkyjebus wrote: »

I have a Ribble Sportive Bianco (same as the Gran Fondo) which both cost below €600. Its a 58cm and you are welcome to try it to see if there is any worth to you upgrading.

Cheers funkyjebus, but it's something more racey I'd be after, like the R872. Though I may take you up on your offer at some stage in the future if needs be.

funkyjebus

colm_gti wrote: »

Cheers funkyjebus, but it's something more racey I'd be after, like the R872. Though I may take you up on your offer at some stage in the future if needs be.

I thought as much but thought I'd offer so you could have an idea of what €600 got you in a carbon frame.

I'd like more race specific frame myself, but am gonna start to race on this. Its a hell of a lot stiffer than my old alu Felt, but the head tube is big, which really bothers me!

Seaneh

colm_gti wrote: »

Cheers funkyjebus, but it's something more racey I'd be after, like the R872. Though I may take you up on your offer at some stage in the future if needs be.

Here's a review of the Gran Fondo, it looks like the sort of thing you're after in fairness.

Light, stiff, reactive but also comfortable.

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/bikes/road/product/review-ribble-gran-fondo-210-39756

funkyjebus

Colm,

I know you'd rather buy new, but saw this and though it might be of interest.

Its the Ribble stealth, which came just before the R872 and is in your price range at €550.

colm_gti

funkyjebus wrote: »

Colm,

I know you'd rather buy new, but saw this and though it might be of interest.

Its the Ribble stealth, which came just before the R872 and is in your price range at €550.

Cheers dude, but a 55cm top tube would be a little on the small side for me

I think I'm going to hold off on picking up a new frame for now anyway

Seaneh

funkyjebus wrote: »

Colm,

I know you'd rather buy new, but saw this and though it might be of interest.

Its the Ribble stealth, which came just before the R872 and is in your price range at €550.

It's actually the same frame just without the internal cable routing, according to ribble anyway.

DirkVoodoo

Seaneh wrote: »

It's actually the same frame just without the internal cable routing, according to ribble anyway.

I thought it was also made from a higher modulus carbon fiber too? (T800 v T700 for the Stealth).

Oh, it also has a BB30 bottom bracket too, can't remember if the Stealth did.

Seaneh

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I thought it was also made from a higher modulus carbon fiber too? (T800 v T700 for the Stealth).

Oh, it also has a BB30 bottom bracket too, can't remember if the Stealth did.

The stealth has BB30.

Didn't know that the carbon was any different though. But the geometry is identical.

Ribble still even have stealth in the url to the frame on their website.

DirkVoodoo

Seaneh wrote: »

The stealth has BB30.

Didn't know that the carbon was any different though. But the geometry is identical.

Ribble still even have stealth in the url to the frame on their website.

Sorry, didn't meant to imply they were different other than for those changes. They had a big sale last year to remove the remaining Stealth stock, 550 euro or thereabouts for a frame and fork. Was very tempted.

Seaneh

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Sorry, didn't meant to imply they were different other than for those changes. They had a big sale last year to remove the remaining Stealth stock, 550 euro or thereabouts for a frame and fork. Was very tempted.

They are lovely.