Alexis Arguello vs. Floyd Mayweather

MickFleetwood

At super-featherweight.

Arguello is definitely the "greater" boxer all-time, but I actually feel that Floyd would be able to outpoint him over the twelve round distance. Fifteen is a different kettle of fish, obviously.

To those familiar with the greatness of Arguello, what say you? One of the very best composite punchers of all time, if not the best. Maybe a bit too slow to deal with Floyd, I feel.

walshb

Watch Arguello and watch Floyd. After this I don't see how anyone can think that Arguello wins, or comes real close to it. Floyd has far too much speed, defense and ring generalship for Alexis, who was quite a stationary fighter. Feet of cement. I cannot see how Arguello gets to go to work on Floyd. Floyd's feet and movement at 130 lbs was special. Clear UD win for Mayweather.

walshb

BTW, even if Floyd decides to stand and trade, in the pocket so to speak, I still see him a winner. He's just too fast, slick, resourceful and naturally gifted.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

BTW, even if Floyd decides to stand and trade, in the pocket so to speak, I still see him a winner. He's just too fast, slick, resourceful and naturally gifted.

He's going to stand and trade with one of the best punchers of all time?

I think you're a bit fooled by the aesthetics of his style. He's never faced a fighter of the quality of Alexis, a master puncher and technician. One vital flaw and mistake that Floyd regularly makes is backing up in straight lines, and for the most part, the limited opponents he's faced (Hatton, Cotto, etc.) have done quite well in maneuvering him to the ropes.

No way Floyd stands in the pocket and trades with Arguello. Alexis at super-feather was a monstrous puncher who was capable of leveling men like Olivares, who in my opinion is the greatest Mexican boxer of all time, albeit past his prime at the time.

MickFleetwood

For the record, I do think Floyd would win a wide enough decision and look great doing it, but he'd never stand and trade with an accurate, devastating, tall puncher like the Explosive Thin Man.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

For the record, I do think Floyd would win a wide enough decision and look great doing it, but he'd never stand and trade with an accurate, devastating, tall puncher like the Explosive Thin Man.

He may opt not to trade and stay in the pocket, but I bet that if he did he would be more than capable. BTW, what happens (in the pocket) when Alexis' shots are mostly hitting thin air and shoulders, and at the same time he is eating crips and clean counters? He's not superman. He took a hell of a lot of shots. Floyd has enough snap and cleanness to hurt and really discourage Alexis. Watch Floyd in the pocket. He can really adapt to whoever is in that pocket with him.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

He may opt not to trade and stay in the pocket, but I bet that if he did he would be more than capable. BTW, what happens (in the pocket) when Alexis' shots are mostly hitting thin air and shoulders, and at the same time he is eating crips and clean counters? He's not superman. He took a hell of a lot of shots. Floyd has enough snap and cleanness to hurt and really discourage Alexis. Watch Floyd in the pocket. He can really adapt to whoever is in that pocket with him.

Alexis' punches wouldn't just be hitting thin air and shoulders, come on now. Who's the best fighter who Floyd stood in the pocket with? He moved against Corrales, an infinitely lesser puncher than Arguello. Moved against Hatton, a short, squat boxer.

He's not going to stand in the pocket successfully and make Arguello miss all night, park that thought, please. It wouldn't even work. Arguello got tremendous leverage on his punches and is accurate enough to land.

Watch Arguello against Vilomar Fernandez. Alexis appeared quite sloppy that night and was basically out-maneuvered by Fernandez. You don't stand in the pocket with one of the best punchers of all time, no matter how defensively sound you are.

Beating Alexis Arguello requires movement at the lower weights. Punching with him would be a tremendously horrible tactical error, and something Mayweather would never do.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Alexis' punches wouldn't just be hitting thin air and shoulders, come on now. Who's the best fighter who Floyd stood in the pocket with? He moved against Corrales, an infinitely lesser puncher than Arguello. Moved against Hatton, a short, squat boxer.

He's not going to stand in the pocket successfully and make Arguello miss all night, park that thought, please. It wouldn't even work. Arguello got tremendous leverage on his punches and is accurate enough to land.

Watch Arguello against Vilomar Fernandez. Alexis appeared quite sloppy that night and was basically out-maneuvered by Fernandez. You don't stand in the pocket with one of the best punchers of all time, no matter how defensively sound you are.

Beating Alexis Arguello requires movement at the lower weights. Punching with him would be a tremendously horrible tactical error, and something Mayweather would never do.

So what did James Toney do for his whole career? Floyd is capable of standing in the pocket with anyone. That is why the man is one of the best ever. You are making out that Alexis has such success should Floyd be in the pocket? It's Floyd he's meeting, not Fernandez, or Pryor or Kevin Rooney.

Yes, Floyd chose to move against Corralles. Corralles was a big dude. Bigger than Alexis, and naturally bigger. But, Floyd still was barely hittable even when he did get trapped. Alexis is not as physically imposing as Corralles. Stength, pushing, and manoeuvring are all important here, and very few fighters were/are as good as Floyd at this at close quarters. Alexis won't bully Floyd inside in the physical sense.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Punching with him would be a tremendously horrible tactical error, and something Mayweather would never do.

Who said punching with him? Punching with any good hitter can see you get clocked. You are most likely getting tagged when you yourself open up. Floyd is a clever and fast counter puncher. Floyd doesn't just stand and trade and neglect defense. He is thinking of it all whilst in offense mode. That is why he's special. Plus, he has a pretty decent beard. He uses feints, dips, duck, rolls and his whole body when he is in close and engaging.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

So what did James Toney do for his whole career? Floyd is capable of standing in the pocket with anyone. That is why the man is one of the best ever. You are making out that Alexis has such success should Floyd be in the pocket? It's Floyd he's meeting, not Fernandez, or Pryor or Kevin Rooney.

No, he is absolutely not. If he stood in the pocket with Arguello for a full fight he'd eventually get sparked out. Arguello has the power to knock anybody out.

Floyd has never fought in the pocket against his best opponents. Juan Manuel Marquez, Diego Corrales, Ricky Hatton, etc. He almost got knocked the **** out by an old Mosley.

You're seriously overrating Mayweather here to the degree of it being almost laughable. He rarely stands and trades with his top opponents, and now he has the ability to do it with anybody in history? One of the best punchers of all time? Just shoulder roll Alexis Arguello's cerebral punches?

If Floyd stood and traded with Arguello, Alexis would time him mid-combination and seriously hurt him. He'd back him to the ropes, measure him and destroy his body. Floyd is susceptible to body punches, as we've seen him getting ripped to it by Jose Luis Castillo.

Again, I'm saying that if the two fought Floyd would win quite easily and clearly. But this absolute nonsense of him trading with Arguello is silly.

MickFleetwood

walshb4000300 wrote:

Who said punching with him? Punching with any good hitter can see you get clocked. You are most likely getting tagged when you yourself open up. Floyd is a clever and fast counter puncher. Floyd doesn't just stand and trade and neglect defense. He is thinking of it all whilst in offense mode. That is why he's special. Plus, he has a pretty decent beard. He uses feints, dips, duck, rolls and his whole body when he is in close and engaging.

You said he'd stand in the pocket and trade with him. This is something he'd never do, and has never done against a really destructive puncher.

Ernesto Marcel also beat a young Arguello. He did it with movement. There's a distinct pattern arising here, and it generally states that standing with Arguello results with you a dribbling mess on the canvas.
Floyd is too smart to do that.

walshb

What has the 2010 Mayweather got to do with this? BTW, JMM was not beating Floyd no matter what style Floyd chose. Hatton the same.

Just to add, Floyd won't be just letting Alexis tee off, you do know that, right? Floyd is capable of returning solid shots whilst in the pocket. He will be a whole lot more accurate and clean too.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

You said he'd stand in the pocket and trade with him. This is something he'd never do, and has never done against a really destructive puncher.

Ernesto Marcel also beat a young Arguello. He did it with movement. There's a distinct pattern arising here, and it generally states that standing with Arguello results with you a dribbling mess on the canvas.
Floyd is too smart to do that.

Trade with him and standing in the pocket does not mean reckless disregard for defense. Floyd could trade and engage with anyone whilst also being slick and defensive. Alexis hasn't got that trait. That's the key difference here. Alexis will be the one eating a whole lot more leather. I don't care too much about the possible KO, Alexis too needs to think about this.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

What has the 2010 Mayweather got to do with this? BTW, JMM was not beating Floyd no matter what style Floyd chose. Hatton the same.

Just to add, Floyd won't be just letting Alexis tee off, you do know that, right? Floyd is capable of returning solid shots whilst in the pocket. He will be a whole lot more accurate and clean too.

Well, you said he could stand in the pocket with anybody. I don't think he can because even an older, past it Mosley could almost wreck him with a single punch.

I know Marquez wouldn't beat Floyd. Mayweather is on another level and a stylistic nightmare. But why didn't he just stand with JMM in the pocket? I'll tell you why, because Floyd doesn't like doing it. He prefers to stay at mid-range and opting to stand with an opponent from time to time. He ain't doing it against any Arguello, sorry.

The fact he did nothing of the sort against Corrales speaks volumes. A less accurate, lesser quality guy than Arguello but also packed a mean punch. Floyd wouldn't stand there in front of him because world-class brutal punchers have got the power to end it all. Hence him not doing it. He wouldn't do it against Arguello.

And yeah, I'm aware Floyd would be throwing punches back. But he'd be conservative up close. He wouldn't be doing Toney-esque kind of stuff against Arguello. You seem to think it would resemble Toney-Barkley or something.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

Trade with him and standing in the pocket does not mean reckless disregard for defense. Floyd could trade and engage with anyone whilst also being slick and defensive. Alexis hasn't got that trait. That's the key difference here. Alexis will be the one eating a whole lot more leather. I don't care too much about the possible KO, Alexis too needs to think about this.

Floyd isn't knocking him out over twelve. Pryor, a ****ing 140lb machine, a beast, needed to throw an unholy amount of hard punches to end it all, and he arguably cheated in the process with that whole black bottle business.

Floyd would either not do it, or if he did, he'd be far too conservative to even come close to stopping it.
Face it; it's not something that Floyd does very often, and with the legs and ability to out-maneuver Arguello, he's never going to stand close to him. That's a terrible mistake to make.

Tell me; could Floyd stand in the pocket with anybody, at any weight? You said he could do it against anybody, but do you mean at super-featherweight or at each weight he fought at?

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Well, you said he could stand in the pocket with anybody. I don't think he can because even an older, past it Mosley could almost wreck him with a single punch.

.

That was one or two clean and flush shots he took. And, he took them and finished the rd stronger. Far from evidence.

I am not overrating Floyd. You could be overrating the success that Alexis has against a Floyd who is in the pocket. Anytime I saw Floyd in the pocket he was the winner, and making the foe miss a hell of a lot.

Big deal that Floyd chose to move a lot. That is not evidence that he could not stand/trade and win had he been forced to or had he chosen to.

Toney/Barkely. Floyd and Toney are different in the pocket fighters. Both exceptionally talented. Toney for me even more so. Floyd won't fight Alexis in the pocket like Toney fought Barkley.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Floyd isn't knocking him out over twelve. Pryor, a ****ing 140lb machine, a beast, needed to throw an unholy amount of hard punches to end it all, and he arguably cheated in the process with that whole black bottle business.

No need to use a 140 lbs heavier and more mature Alexis. We are talking about the 130 lbs version, no?

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

That was one or two clean and flush shots he took. And, he took them and finished the rd stronger. Far from evidence.

I am not overrating Floyd. You could be overrating the success that Alexis has against a Floyd who is in the pocket. Anytime I saw Floyd in the pocket he was the winner, and making the foe miss a hell of a lot.

Big deal that Floyd chose to move a lot. That is not evidence that he could not stand/trade and win had he been forced to or had he chosen to.

Toney/Barkely. Floyd and Toney are different in the pocket fighters. Both exceptionally talented. Toney for me even more so. Floyd won't fight Alexis in the pocket like Toney fought Barkley.

This is getting silly now. Which fighters did Floyd stand in the pocket with and have success, then?

How many full Arguello fights have you watched, by the way?

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Floyd Tell me; could Floyd stand in the pocket with anybody, at any weight? You said he could do it against anybody, but do you mean at super-featherweight or at each weight he fought at?

C'mon, he wouldn't do it against Tyson at HW:). Any "natural" weight. I would argue up to 147 lbs probably. Although, a SRL or SRR or Hearns could be major trouble.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

No need to use a 140 lbs heavier and more mature Alexis. We are talking about the 130 lbs version, no?

More mature? He was past his prime against Pryor. You said Alexis would have to worry about being stopped. That is clear bull****. Floyd isn't stopping Arguello. He would not stand in the pocket and make him miss with everything and just ping counter off of his head.

You either haven't watched much Arguello at all or incredibly overrate Floyd.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

C'mon, he wouldn't do it against Tyson at HW:). Any "natural" weight. I would argue up to 147 lbs probably. Although, a SRL or SRR or Hearns could be major trouble.

Duran would mangle Floyd in the pocket. Or at any range, really. At any weight at his best.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

This is getting silly now. Which fighters did Floyd stand in the pocket with and have success, then?

How many full Arguello fights have you watched, by the way?

I have seen enough of Alexis to tell me that Floyd beats him in any style fight. Floyd was in the pocket throughout his career. Not all the time. I do recall some real good displays against Corley and Brussells I think. I will recheck that.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Duran would mangle Floyd in the pocket. Or at any range, really. At any weight at his best.

I disagree. Duran wins, yes! I do not agree that it's in any way easy. It's a close and hard fought win.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

I have seen enough of Alexis to tell me that Floyd beats him in any style fight. Floyd was in the pocket throughout his career. Not all the time. I do recall some real good displays against Corley and Brussells I think. I will recheck that.

Yes, DeMarcus Corley. That is the type of boxer Floyd has success against in the pocket.

A short, extremely limited guy. Not exactly a tall, rangy, brutal puncher, is he?

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Yes, DeMarcus Corley. That is the type of boxer Floyd has success against in the pocket.

A short, extremely limited guy. Not exactly a tall, rangy, brutal puncher, is he?

You asked which fighters. I gave you two. Anyway, let's here from someone else. Make this a bit more interesting.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

I disagree. Duran wins, yes! I do not agree that it's in any way easy. It's a close and hard fought win.

Nah, Duran would beat the piss out of Floyd. Too skilled, too large, too strong. Defense is too good, feints and footwork, etc. Everything.

Floyd was a super-featherweight in his prime. Duran, at welterweight, was beating a prime Sugar Ray Leonard. There is no comparison, Floyd has done **** all at welterweight to make me think he'd be able to make it close.

What's he done? Beat Victor Ortiz? An old Mosley? An out of shape Juan Manuel Marquez? Ricky Hatton?

Not exactly a Murderer's Row, is it?

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

More mature? He was past his prime against Pryor. .

I never said he was not past his prime. I just said that he was a more mature fighter. That is true.

FTA69

Mayweather didn't nearly get "knocked the f*ck out" by Mosley, that's an exaggeration. It's not like he barely made a count or anything. He took a solid punch and came back even harder. He has eaten plenty of punches down the pipe in his career (as any boxer with 40 fights would) and has taken them from plenty of big hitters as well. Similarly the notion that he's lost once his defensive technique is negated is false, Mayweather is as rugged on the inside as they come and is big and strong for the lower weights. His whole life he had people aiming to go in and "rough him up" but nobody has yet, funnily enough.

Mayweather would beat Arguello, an argument in whether he would batter him on the inside the whole fight is pointless anyway because that's not how Floyd fights anyone, least of all someone like Arguello.

I'd also contend he'd beat Duran.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Nah, Duran would beat the piss out of Floyd. Too skilled, too large, too strong. Defense is too good, feints and footwork, etc. Everything.

Floyd was a super-featherweight in his prime. Duran, at welterweight, was beating a prime Sugar Ray Leonard. There is no comparison, Floyd has done **** all at welterweight to make me think he'd be able to make it close.

What's he done? Beat Victor Ortiz? An old Mosley? An out of shape Juan Manuel Marquez? Ricky Hatton?

Not exactly a Murderer's Row, is it?

Duran was not naturally bigger than Floyd. Check their career paths, pre SFW eras and catch weights. Very similarly sized when in peak shape.

I have Duran to beat PBF. No way is it easy. No man at 130-140 lbs is beating Floyd handily. No way. At 147 I think Floyd starts to have more issues, but again, he's more than capable of being competitive.

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

Mayweather would beat Arguello, an argument in whether he would batter him on the inside the whole fight is pointless anyway because that's not how Floyd fights anyone, least of all someone like Arguello.

I'd also contend he'd beat Duran.

I agree. I was simply saying that IF Floyd chose to be in the pocket that I still think he wins. Also, I wasn't claiming that Floyd batters him on the inside. Just beats him.

MickFleetwood

FTA69 wrote: »

Mayweather didn't nearly get "knocked the f*ck out" by Mosley, that's an exaggeration. It's not like he barely made a count or anything. He took a solid punch and came back even harder. He has eaten plenty of punches down the pipe in his career (as any boxer with 40 fights would) and has taken them from plenty of big hitters as well. Similarly the notion that he's lost once his defensive technique is negated is false, Mayweather is as rugged on the inside as they come and is big and strong for the lower weights. His whole life he had people aiming to go in and "rough him up" but nobody has yet, funnily enough.

Mayweather would beat Arguello, an argument in whether he would batter him on the inside the whole fight is pointless anyway because that's not how Floyd fights anyone, least of all someone like Arguello.

I'd also contend he'd beat Duran.

Alright, I've had my fair share here. This is a ridiculous statement that I won't even bother to answer.

Yes. Floyd is good enough to beat Roberto Duran. A super-featherweight at his best who was pinned to the ropes by Ricky Hatton beats Duran. Haha.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

Duran was not naturally bigger than Floyd. Check their career paths, pre SFW eras and catch weights. Very similarly sized when in peak shape.

I have Duran to beat PBF. No way is it easy. No man at 130-140 lbs is beating Floyd handily. No way. At 147 I think Floyd starts to have more issues, but again, he's more than capable of being competitive.

Listen, man. I think you're knowledgeable on this. But Duran literally beat up one of the greatest natural welterweights in his prime. Sugar Ray Leonard.

Duran is not only a better offensive fighter than Floyd, he's also more skilled. Mayweather arguably lost to Jose Luis Castillo and now he beats Roberto Duran, the most skilled offensive fighter of all time?

Haha.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Alright, I've had my fair share here. This is a ridiculous statement that I won't even bother to answer.

Yes. Floyd is good enough to beat Roberto Duran. A super-featherweight at his best who was pinned to the ropes by Ricky Hatton beats Duran. Haha.

So, a deabte goes against your view and that means it must be ridiculous? Duran wasn't invincible. Floyd has the tools to cause big problems. I have Duran in a very very close fight between 130-140 lbs.

FTA69

You can p*ss your pants all you want, it's an opinion. And as you know yourself, these "who'd beat who" from different eras is all academic anyway. Complete conjecture. You've spent the thread accusing walshb of overrating Mayweather but the fact is you're chronically underrating him.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

So, a deabte goes against your view and that means it must be ridiculous? Duran wasn't invincible. Floyd has the tools to cause big problems. I have Duran in a very very close fight between 130-140 lbs.

Of course Duran wasn't invincible. He was just miles better than Floyd ever was at welterweight.

I mean, I don't think you realize what level Duran was operating at. He is one of the top ten greatest of all time. He arguably has the greatest win in boxing history, moving up and defeating a primed ATG welterweight.

MickFleetwood

FTA69 wrote: »

You can p*ss your pants all you want, it's an opinion. And as you know yourself, these "who'd beat who" from different eras is all academic anyway. Complete conjecture. You've spent the thread accusing walshb of overrating Mayweather but the fact is you're chronically underrating him.

How am I chronically underrating him? I said he'd beat Arguello easily, and widely. Talk of him just standing with him though is far-fetched because: He's never done it against a really, really good opponent, and he didn't do it against a kind of similar guy in Corrales.

Duran would stop Floyd/win a wide enough decision over twelve or fifteen.

Fall_Guy

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Well, you said he could stand in the pocket with anybody. I don't think he can because even an older, past it Mosley could almost wreck him with a single punch.

Ah here, that old, past it Mosley was about the same as the old, past it mosley that knocked the living **** out of margarito (who may or may not have been there mentally, i know...). He still had his power, and his speed. And what he did was catch floyd early with a huge shot which floyd ate, didn't go down on, and held like a mofo. Good work on his part.

He then continued to stand in front of mosley for the rest of the fight, feet planted. And he won every other round. If anything that fight showed exactly how well floyd can do fighting a big hitter without making use of his footspeed.

MickFleetwood

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Ah here, that old, past it Mosley was about the same as the old, past it mosley that knocked the living **** out of margarito (who may or may not have been there mentally, i know...). He still had his power, and his speed. And what he did was catch floyd early with a huge shot which floyd ate, didn't go down on, and held like a mofo. Good work on his part.

He then continued to stand in front of mosley for the rest of the fight, feet planted. And he won every other round. If anything that fight showed exactly how well floyd can do fighting a big hitter without making use of his footspeed.

Yeah, I agree. It was hyperbole on my part. But the point still stands that you don't stand in front of a massive puncher.

MickFleetwood

Can I ask? How many full Duran fights have you people seen?

Don't lie, just give me an honest answer, please. Name the fights.

FTA69

Duran then lost to Sugar Ray in the rematch because he couldn't cope with the angles thrown, the speed and footwork of Ray and most importantly he kept getting banged with hard counters. All of the above factors Mayweather can do in abundance (when he was younger his movement was second to none) and neither is Mayweather afraid of getting into a scrap when that moment arises. If Duran can lose to Sugar Ray for those reasons it is entirelt feasable he could lose to Floyd. Is it a certainty? Of course it isn't, as I said, these discussions are all conjectures.

I'm also not making the argument Floyd would stand with anyone throughout the course of a fight, because as I said before it's a silly argument that's not how he fights anyone.

MickFleetwood

FTA69 wrote: »

Duran then lost to Sugar Ray in the rematch because he couldn't cope with the angles thrown, the speed and footwork of Ray and most importantly he kept getting banged with hard counters. All of the above factors Mayweather can do in abundance (when he was younger his movement was second to none) and neither is Mayweather afraid of getting into a scrap when that moment arises. If Duran can lose to Sugar Ray for those reasons it is entirelt feasable he could lose to Floyd. Is it a certainty? Of course it isn't, as I said, these discussions are all conjectures.

I'm also not making the argument Floyd would stand with anyone throughout the course of a fight, because as I said before it's a silly argument that's not how he fights anyone.

Duran lost to Leonard because he was lazy fat, coked up **** who ballooned up in weight and had to lose it all in a small period of time.

Hardly an excuse, but Floyd couldn't replicate what Leonard did because he's not as good and he doesn't have the legs to do it. SRL was moving all over the place. Floyd couldn't do that, he'd be cornered and backed up.

Floyd isn't skilled enough as an inside fighter or quick on his feet at 147 to win. The fight will eventually end up on the inside where Floyd gets brutalized.

Duran is of a far higher quality than anybody Floyd could/would have faced, whilst Floyd at 147 pretty much pales in comparison to Sugar Ray Leonard in basically every single way.

MickFleetwood

A list of welterweights I'd favor to beat Floyd; Jose Napoles, Roberto Duran, Ray Leonard, Ray Robinson, Thomas Hearns, prime Oscar De La Hoya, Kid Gavilan, Emile Griffith, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Pernell Whitaker, Charley Burley, Lloyd Honeyghan, Curtis Cokes, Wilfred Benitez, Vernon Forrest (arguably), Marlon Starling.

EDIT: I also think that Floyd is an all-time great but at welterweight he gets horrifically overrated due to fighting simplistic opponents and is generally just not able to hang with real, prime, great welterweights.

Also, don't think I'm one of those people who overrate the old-timers. Please.

I'd also give Felix Trinidad a fair shot at Floyd.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

A list of welterweights I'd favor to beat Floyd; Jose Napoles, Roberto Duran, Ray Leonard, Ray Robinson, Thomas Hearns, prime Oscar De La Hoya, Kid Gavilan, Emile Griffith, Luis Manuel Rodriguez, Pernell Whitaker, Charley Burley, Lloyd Honeyghan, Curtis Cokes, Wilfred Benitez, Vernon Forrest (arguably), Marlon Starling.

EDIT: I also think that Floyd is an all-time great but at welterweight he gets horrifically overrated due to fighting simplistic opponents and is generally just not able to hang with real, prime, great welterweights.

Also, don't think I'm one of those people who overrate the old-timers. Please.

I'd also give Felix Trinidad a fair shot at Floyd.

Floyd for me at WW is nothing special. I clearly was saying that up to 140 lbs he is an ATG. Above this and it gets tricky. BTW, he is more than competitive with all the names you mention above. Forrest/Hearns from that bunch would probably be his toughest fight. He never beats Hearns at WW.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

How am I chronically underrating him? I said he'd beat Arguello easily, and widely. Talk of him just standing with him though is far-fetched because: He's never done it against a really, really good opponent, and he didn't do it against a kind of similar guy in Corrales.

Duran would stop Floyd/win a wide enough decision over twelve or fifteen.

You are claiming that Floyd CANNOT win if he decides to stay in the pocket with Alexis. That to me sees you under-rating his ability. Who cares if he mostly used leg speed and movement. That is not the issue. Facts are that WHEN he did stay in the pocket he was STILL the winner. He has that much adaptability. He can box and slug and box/slug!

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

You are claiming that Floyd CANNOT win if he decides to stay in the pocket with Alexis. That to me sees you under-rating his ability. Who cares if he mostly used leg speed and movement. That is not the issue. Facts are that WHEN he did stay in the pocket he was STILL the winner. He has that much adaptability. He can box and slug and box/slug!

I'm not saying he can't win doing that. I'm saying he would never do that because his career has shown to me he wouldn't do it.

If he did that it would open up much more avenues for Alexis to win. It'd be like me saying that Ali could beat Tyson by putting his earmuffs on and electing to brawl with him, or Pacquiao trying to beat Juan Manuel Marquez by tentatively jabbing and feinting at him.

MickFleetwood

walshb wrote: »

Floyd for me at WW is nothing special. I clearly was saying that up to 140 lbs he is an ATG. Above this and it gets tricky. BTW, he is more than competitive with all the names you mention above. Forrest/Hearns from that bunch would probably be his toughest fight. He never beats Hearns at WW.

Yeah, Floyd's an ATG. He still gets his ass kicked by the top welters though.

Like Duran, for example. Or Hearns. Or Leonard. Or Benitez. Or Robinson. Or Napoles.

walshb

Duran doesn't kick his ass. Nor does Jose. SRL, Hearns and SRR are all clear winners for me.

FTA69

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Duran lost to Leonard because he was lazy fat, coked up **** who ballooned up in weight and had to lose it all in a small period of time.

As you said yourself, that's not an excuse at that level. Being on the gear and neglecting yourself is immaterial to these debates in my opinion.

Hardly an excuse, but Floyd couldn't replicate what Leonard did because he's not as good and he doesn't have the legs to do it. SRL was moving all over the place. Floyd couldn't do that, he'd be cornered and backed up.

Floyd wasn't nearly as static as he is nowadays and had lightening quick feet and reflexes and is one of the best counter punchers in this generation. He would be well able to move and well able to counter; all the things Ray did.

Floyd isn't skilled enough as an inside fighter or quick on his feet at 147 to win. The fight will eventually end up on the inside where Floyd gets brutalized.

I've never seen anyone remotely come close to brutalising Mayweather, it's rare he takes a combination in a fight - on the inside or out - never mind brutalising. I don't think Duran wouldn't walk over Mayweather the way you're making out. If he did beat Floyd it would be a close decision and a hard won victory.

I'm not trying to put sh*t on Duran, he's one of my favorite fighters, but he lost to Leonard due to skills Ray had that Floyd also has in abundance. That's the crux of my point.

Some on your list Floyd would beat handy in my opinion, and he'd be well able to make a competitive fight with nearly all of them; even at welterweight.

walshb

MickFleetwood wrote: »

I'm not saying he can't win doing that. I'm saying he would never do that because his career has shown to me he wouldn't do it.
.

You implied or stated that Floyd would not win if he traded in the pocket. You implied that he'd get knocked out. Saying he would never do that is a separate statement, and one you or anyone cannot prove! So, I will ask: If Floyd met Alexis and decided to go toe to toe (in the pocket) can he beat him?

MickFleetwood

As you said yourself, that's not an excuse at that level. Being on the gear and neglecting yourself is immaterial to these debates in my opinion.

Agreed.

Floyd wasn't nearly as static as he is nowadays and had lightening quick feet and reflexes and is one of the best counter punchers in this generation. He would be well able to move and well able to counter; all the things Ray did.

Look, Floyd is not the boxer Leonard is at welterweight. It's not even debatable. Floyd would never have gone to welterweight if the likes of Duran, Leonard, Benitez and co. Were around. Who are the best welterweights today? 39 year old JMM? Guerrero? Bradley? Brook? Alexander? They are solid, world class competitors, but boxing in general has declined from the 80's. The talent pool is smaller.

I've never seen anyone remotely come close to brutalising Mayweather, it's rare he takes a combination in a fight - on the inside or out - never mind brutalising. I don't think Duran wouldn't walk over Mayweather the way you're making out. If he did beat Floyd it would be a close decision and a hard won victory.

I thought Jose Luis Castillo edged out Floyd by a point in their first fight. Hardly an ass kicking but it showed Floyd's out of his depth against a really good operator on the inside.

Let's face it; Floyd is not an inside boxer. He's not a James Toney. He likes to move, and recently has begun to walk his opponents down. He's lost his legs.

I'm not trying to put sh*t on Duran, he's one of my favorite fighters, but he lost to Leonard due to skills Ray had that Floyd also has in abundance. That's the crux of my point.

This is the thing though. Leonard proved his skill against Benitez, Duran, Hearns, Kalule, Hagler, etc. Whilst Floyd has done it against Judah, Hatton, Ortiz, etc.
The levels these two were competing at are on different planets.

SRL also had the physical gifts at welterweight to implement these skills. Floyd would be far out of his depth against these men. He'd be backed up and battered silly.
He's not going to shoulder roll Duran like he did Lovemore N'dou. He's not going to start moving extremely quickly on his feet and start firing off insanely quick combinations on the move at welterweight like SRL.

Some on your list Floyd would beat handy in my opinion, and he'd be well able to make a competitive fight with nearly all of them; even at welterweight.

Name them.

walshb

Benitez was class, but seriously, Floyd would be very competitive against him. I will give you SRL and Hearns as major threats. Both were bigger, heavier handed, as fast and both were very destructive in offensive mode. Benitez was a patient boxer who used skill and defense and countering. Very like Floyd. Benitez lost to SRL and Hearns because he couldn't compete with them in offense. Floyd loses to them for the same reason.

I'd add in a peak Don Curry as another big threat for Floyd at 147 lbs.