free speech

valder

is free speech a thing of the past in dear old ireland, is ireland now a police state, where you have to take whats thrown at you, unless you are a millionaire,and can afford high courts, not many people can. government bodies can, they can take your family, they know you cant afford to do anything about it.

morlock_

valder wrote: »

is free speech a thing of the past in dear old ireland

I don't believe in the concept of "free speech"
You can say what you like but that doesn't mean you'll get away with it.

Piss the wrong people off and it doesn't matter what country you're in.

is ireland now a police state

Nope, nowhere close.

where you have to take whats thrown at you, unless you are a millionaire,and can afford high courts, not many people can. government bodies can, they can take your family, they know you cant afford to do anything about it.

I'm sure laws are breached everyday, especially when a family is being evicted from property.

The Direct Democracy party might interest you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIqGt9Utt3I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mspzKgDoWGI

Anynama141

morlock_ wrote: »

The Direct Democracy party might interest you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIqGt9Utt3I

They are led by Ben Gilroy who hasn't paid a cent towards his mortgage for 2 years or more.

Usually politicians wait until they are actually voted into office before ripping off the taxpayer, but Ben has managed to get a head start!

morlock_

Anynama141 wrote: »

They are led by Ben Gilroy who hasn't paid a cent towards his mortgage for 2 years or more.

Usually politicians wait until they are actually voted into office before ripping off the taxpayer, but Ben has managed to get a head start!

I don't care if he never pays another cent to banks, The were paid in full with the bailouts but are now breaking the law to take back property they no longer own.

I'm glad Ben Gilroy is doing something to confront white collar crime.

Sean Dunne, the man who recently declared himself bankrupt and unable to pay $500 million...

Dunne, who owes hundreds of millions to Irish and UK banks, and who is among the largest of debtors on the books of the State-owned National Asset Management Agency, has said he may end up paying back less than 2 per cent of what he owes. Society will have to shoulder the rest.

He can walk away from his debts with a smug grin.

Anynama141

morlock_ wrote: »

I don't care if he never pays another cent to banks, The were paid in full with the bailouts but are now breaking the law to take back property they no longer own.

I don't think you understand what happened with the bailouts - they were not to pay back anybody's mortgage, they were to stop the banks from collapsing.

morlock_ wrote: »

I'm glad Ben Gilroy is doing something to confront white collar crime.

Sean Dunne, the man who recently declared himself bankrupt and unable to pay $500 million...

Yeah, the Dunne business is a sickener alright, but of course Ben Gilroy could also go bankrupt if he can't pay his debts. He just wants to keep the stuff he bought with the borrowings and get them for free - he's not much better than Dunne in my view.

morlock_

Anynama141 wrote: »

He just wants to keep the stuff he bought with the borrowings and get them for free - he's not much better than Dunne in my view.

So you think the government spending €100 billion of tax payers money on a banking sector worth €3 billion before the crisis was money well spent?
Don't you think Irish people have a right to decide whether or not we cover the debts of bankers that broke the law?

Like many homeowners in America, the mortgages of some in Ireland were sold to overseas investors therefore the banks don't legally own the property anymore.

Receivers are evicting people from their homes illegally and you think Ben Gilroy is a hypocrite for confronting it. No wonder the country has no future with thinking like that.

Anynama141

morlock_ wrote: »

So you think the government spending €100 billion of tax payers money on a banking sector worth €3 billion before the crisis was money well spent?

Your numbers are wrong. Where are you getting €3 billion and €100 billion from?

morlock_ wrote: »

Don't you think Irish people have a right to decide whether or not we cover the debts of bankers that broke the law?

Which laws did they break? And what amount of the bank losses would you attribute to such 'law breaking'?

morlock_ wrote: »

Like many homeowners in America, the mortgages of some in Ireland were sold to overseas investors therefore the banks don't legally own the property anymore.

That's flat-out wrong. You don't understand securitisation.

morlock_ wrote: »

Receivers are evicting people from their homes illegally and you think Ben Gilroy is a hypocrite for confronting it. No wonder the country has no future with thinking like that.

If it's illegal, then they won't get the repossession order from the courts. They have to jump through ridiculous numbers of hoops to get such and order - hence the fact that we have a tiny fraction of the number of repossessions here that they have in the UK or US.

morlock_

Anynama141 wrote: »

Your numbers are wrong. Where are you getting €3 billion and €100 billion from?

Alright, why don't you tell me how much it cost?

Which laws did they break? And what amount of the bank losses would you attribute to such 'law breaking'?

Watch the video where Ben Gilroy halts receivers.
There are plenty more online.

That's flat-out wrong. You don't understand securitisation.

No, it's not flat-out wrong.
My other sibling bought and sold MBS during the boom. They told me all about them. You're just being dishonest or ignorant about the issue.

Anynama141

morlock_ wrote: »

Alright, why don't you tell me how much it cost?

It's hard to say exactly, as the recapitalisation has bought AIB, PTSB, and EBS, plus we still have a stake in BOI. Depending on how the future pans out, they might be worth tens of billions (or nothing). So you have the cost of the recaps on one hand, minus the future value of what it bought. Then you have the Anglo Irish/Irish Nationwide bad bank disaster - you'd have to add that cost too even though we got little or nothing in return.

It's complicated, as you can see.

As to the value of the banks - in 2007, AIB and BOI were worth about $45 billion alone, not including Anglo, PTSB, EBS or Irish Nationwide. Those numbers are easily found, so we can speak with confidence about them at least.

morlock_ wrote: »

Watch the video where Ben Gilroy halts receivers.
There are plenty more online.

I watched them since he started producing them. He throws loads of Sovereign/Freeman bullsh!t at the low-level lads who are trying to enforce the court judgements. Invariably they are baffled by his nonsense and go away and come back a few days later and complete the repossession, but TNS and the like only publicise the 'victory' videos where the agents of the banks are temporarily driven off.

morlock_ wrote: »

No, it's not flat-out wrong.
My other sibling bought and sold MBS during the boom. They told me all about them. You're just being dishonest or ignorant about the issue.

Well I must be dishonest because I'm not ignorant. There's a description of the process of creating mortgage-backed securities (MBS) here. As you will see, the process of selling bonds linked to the incomes from mortgages held by the banks does mean that the banks have sold the mortgages. This may be what confuses you and your sibling.

I hope if your sibling is still in the finance industry, they have some idea of what they are doing these days.

EoghanIRL

Freedom is just a synonym for democracy . Censorship even on the internet , free speech is hindered everywhere .

Torakx

Its a funny game banking.We talk about worth regarding credit like its actually worth anything.But as mentioned above this is less to do at least directly with freedom of speech.
In Ireland im not really sure how bad or good it is.
I know in the Uk it seems to be getting closer to the US model.
Like cops harrassing people for using cameras in public places.
Do they do that here in Ireland? Particularly I mean the big cities like Dublin.

morlock_

Anynama141 wrote: »

It's hard to say exactly, as the recapitalisation has bought AIB, PTSB, and EBS, plus we still have a stake in BOI. Depending on how the future pans out, they might be worth tens of billions (or nothing). So you have the cost of the recaps on one hand, minus the future value of what it bought. Then you have the Anglo Irish/Irish Nationwide bad bank disaster - you'd have to add that cost too even though we got little or nothing in return.

It's complicated, as you can see.

Of course it's too complicated, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

You're correcting my estimate and can't provide one yourself.
Constantin Gurdgiev said it cost approx. €100 billion for the bank bailout. I suppose he's confused too? Obviously...

Well I must be dishonest....

Yes, you're being dishonest, hit the nail on the head.

weisses

morlock_ wrote: »

So you think the government spending €100 billion of tax payers money on a banking sector worth €3 billion before the crisis was money well spent?

How did you calculate the 3 billion figure ?

Anynama141

weisses wrote: »

How did you calculate the 3 billion figure ?

I've no idea where he got that because that is Googleable quite easily. Trying to figure out the cost of the bailout is difficult at this stage because you have to take known number away from an unknown number.

Anynama141

morlock_ wrote: »

Of course it's too complicated, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Where did you get the hopelessly incorrect €3 billion from? That information is easily available.

morlock_ wrote: »

You're correcting my estimate and can't provide one yourself.
Constantin Gurdgiev said it cost approx. €100 billion for the bank bailout. I suppose he's confused too? Obviously...

I'm correcting your 'estimate' because it is miles off. Your €100 billion number is way out too, firstly because we only put €64 billion into the banks, and secondly, as I pointed out, we might actually see some of that money back if/when the stakes we own in the banks are sold off again - so all of that isn't gone either. I know people want easy answers, but sometimes you have to realise that all the information isn't available yet (because it's in the future).

morlock_ wrote: »

Yes, you're being dishonest, hit the nail on the head.

Well, I've proven and explained everything I've said here. If you still don't accept it, that's because you choose to believe something that isn't true. That's fine - just don't expect other people to agree with you.

Here is the value of the Irish banks before the crash:

Permanent TSB - 6 billion
AIB - 20 billion
Anglo - 13 billion
BOI - 18 billion
EBS - not publicly traded
IN - not publicly traded

Total = €57 billion euros, with the two building societies not included. If we assign a notional value of €1.5 billion to each of them (which is an estimate), the value of the whole lot comes to €60 billion.

So here are the actual figures involved, compared to yours:

Actual Cost: €64B (not including whatever value we recover from our stakes)
Your Claimed Cost: €100B

Actual Pre-Crash Value: €60B
Your Claimed Pre-Crash Value: €3B

Locanfetzava

valder wrote: »

is free speech a thing of the past in dear old ireland, is ireland now a police state, where you have to take whats thrown at you, unless you are a millionaire,and can afford high courts, not many people can. government bodies can, they can take your family, they know you cant afford to do anything about it.

Yes, freedom of speech certainly hit a blow after 1 January 2010 with the introduction of the new blasphemy laws.

returnNull

Locanfetzava wrote: »

Yes, freedom of speech certainly hit a blow after 1 January 2010 with the introduction of the new blasphemy laws.

and how many times has that law been enforced?and out of all those times that the law has been enforced how many convictions has there been?

On this site alone i've seen unedited posts refering to mohammed being a kiddy-fiddler due to his marrying a 9 year old girl and that mary had an affair and to explain away that she got preggers out of wed lock she told porky pies to joesph the carpenter

Posters on the A&A forum have been blaspheming pretty much every God there is/was

Anynama141

returnNull wrote: »

and how many times has that law been enforced?and out of all those times that the law has been enforced how many convictions has there been?

To be fair, the fact that it's on the statute books means it can be enforced whenever the authorities want to enforce it.

returnNull

Anynama141 wrote: »

To be fair, the fact that it's on the statute books means it can be enforced whenever the authorities want to enforce it.

There's also many laws that are retarded and still on the statute books from years past.They dont repeal old laws,they just dont enforce them any more.

A good few of the political party's said they'd never enforce it while a couple(labour and I think the defunct green party)said they'd look to having it removed from the constituition.Dont ask me to go getting links on mobile with the worlds smallest screen,even typing this out is pain in the hole:pac:

Anynama141

returnNull wrote: »

There's also many laws that are retarded and still on the statute books from years past.They dont repeal old laws,they just dont enforce them any more.

Are you sure about that? Decriminalisation of homosexuality...

returnNull

Anynama141 wrote: »

Are you sure about that? Decriminalisation of homosexuality...

that was a civil right that was being denied to a section of our population,of course they were going to repeal it.

Locanfetzava

returnNull wrote: »

and how many times has that law been enforced?and out of all those times that the law has been enforced how many convictions has there been?

It doesn't matter how many times it has been enforced or not, the fact is that it is there and dormant waiting for the opportunity to be used.

returnNull

Locanfetzava wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many times it has been enforced or not, the fact is that it is there and dormant waiting for the opportunity to be used.

I presume you're talking about the blasphemy law?

We(Ireland) as a whole are getting more secular,highly unlikely that it will ever be enforced.And at the time a lot of legal commentators it wouldnt withstand challenges at international level.


Dont want to concentrate just on the blasphemy law,but i would be more worried if the government passed laws limiting what can be said on social websites and use the recent spate of suicides/on-line bullying as the excuse

Locanfetzava

returnNull wrote: »

I presume you're talking about the blasphemy law?

We(Ireland) as a whole are getting more secular,highly unlikely that it will ever be enforced.And at the time a lot of legal commentators it wouldnt withstand challenges at international level.


Dont want to concentrate just on the blasphemy law,but i would be more worried if the government passed laws limiting what can be said on social websites and use the recent spate of suicides/on-line bullying as the excuse

Blasphemy laws could also be used in other instances, not just religious based, ie against peoples beliefs, making fun of someone for being an atheist or a pastor publicly condemning homosexuality in a church. etc.

What about that recent incident where a student was arrested for slander for calling Pat Rabbitt a "Rabbit" on Twitter.

http://www.oxygen.ie/man_arrested_for_calling_pat_rabbitte_a_rabbit_on_twitter.PAGE5826.html

mikeecho

Police state... i dunno about that .. even the police here dont have free speech.


maybe we've gone beyond a police state

returnNull

Locanfetzava wrote: »

Blasphemy laws could also be used in other instances, not just religious based, ie against peoples beliefs, making fun of someone for being an atheist or a pastor publicly condemning homosexuality in a church. etc.

What about that recent incident where a student was arrested for slander for calling Pat Rabbitt a "Rabbit" on Twitter.

http://www.oxygen.ie/man_arrested_for_calling_pat_rabbitte_a_rabbit_on_twitter.PAGE5826.html

you didnt read my post did you?

returnNull

Strangely enough you get **** all hits in google when you type'Man arrested for calling Pat Rabbitte a 'rabbit' on Twitter'.

No major news source had it(although david icke and infowars.ireland did).

Any one else wanna give it a go for us in case my google is broke?

stuar

What about the man arrested for speaking Irish by "An Garda Síochána"..................in free speech Ireland, isn't it ironic.



http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=9465

derry

Well if you knew your history you would know the reason the English had to stand on top of a soap box was there is no free speech in the LAND of England Scotland Ireland Wales. However if you were standing on the soap box you were not standing on the LAND and so could say what you wanted to say .When the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government took office in Leister house they adopted the UK laws so in effect Ireland never got independence from the UK if you believe this government is your government .Under this system the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government and it successors the 44th sitting of the Leister house owe their allegiance to the Queen of England their new boss and they have the legal system of the UK ever since 1926 using the Irish courts who use BRITISH LAW. British law doesn't allow free speech ask the victims in jail who found out the hard way so in effect all those who think the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government and it successors don't have free speech and never did .Its just the UK government and its side kick the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government give the impression there is free speech but ask the victims in Portliaose political sections how much free speech there is in Ireland and you will get an earful
On thing we learn from the sovereign Irish government represented by the President of the IRB Irish republican Brothers is the true history they don't teach in Irish schools and it explains in the sovereign Irish constitution free speech is copper fastened in it but the usurpers the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government got rid of that with new UK based laws they chose to use as they were good Gombben men who know their boss the majesty of the UK would reward them well and boy does she do that Cowan got his 100 apartments in Leeds to see him into retirement nicely. You can see the presdent of the IRB telling the Bank of Ireland they have no legal commercial licence to operate in Sovereign Ireland as bank at this home page www.tnsradio.ning.com.
Enjoy the pseudo fre speech while you still can they intend under communist run EU rules to stop all free speech .Its already illegal in the EU to criticize the EU .It a criminal offence in faxct punishable with fines and jail terms but the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government did not tell you that so you can all one day be rounded up brought to court and thrown in jail for repeated posts on the internet and similar saying the EU sucks . Don't be surprised if it isn't a non Irish police force that arrests you brings you to some other part of Europe to jail there as you offended their local laws on no free speech .Ask the non Germans around Europe who got arrested brought to Germany and do time in German jails for saying things like the numbers in the Holocaust don't add up there wasn't a population of 6 million Jews in occupied Europe to exterminate .

Derry

Anynama141

derry wrote: »

Well if you knew your history you would know the reason the English had to stand on top of a soap box was there is no free speech in the LAND of England Scotland Ireland Wales. However if you were standing on the soap box you were not standing on the LAND and so could say what you wanted to say .When the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government took office in Leister house they adopted the UK laws so in effect Ireland never got independence from the UK if you believe this government is your government .Under this system the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government and it successors the 44th sitting of the Leister house owe their allegiance to the Queen of England their new boss and they have the legal system of the UK ever since 1926 using the Irish courts who use BRITISH LAW. British law doesn't allow free speech ask the victims in jail who found out the hard way so in effect all those who think the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government and it successors don't have free speech and never did .Its just the UK government and its side kick the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government give the impression there is free speech but ask the victims in Portliaose political sections how much free speech there is in Ireland and you will get an earful
On thing we learn from the sovereign Irish government represented by the President of the IRB Irish republican Brothers is the true history they don't teach in Irish schools and it explains in the sovereign Irish constitution free speech is copper fastened in it but the usurpers the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government got rid of that with new UK based laws they chose to use as they were good Gombben men who know their boss the majesty of the UK would reward them well and boy does she do that Cowan got his 100 apartments in Leeds to see him into retirement nicely. You can see the presdent of the IRB telling the Bank of Ireland they have no legal commercial licence to operate in Sovereign Ireland as bank at this home page www.tnsradio.ning.com.
Enjoy the pseudo fre speech while you still can they intend under communist run EU rules to stop all free speech .Its already illegal in the EU to criticize the EU .It a criminal offence in faxct punishable with fines and jail terms but the 1926 King George the 5th 26 county Provision Irish government did not tell you that so you can all one day be rounded up brought to court and thrown in jail for repeated posts on the internet and similar saying the EU sucks . Don't be surprised if it isn't a non Irish police force that arrests you brings you to some other part of Europe to jail there as you offended their local laws on no free speech .Ask the non Germans around Europe who got arrested brought to Germany and do time in German jails for saying things like the numbers in the Holocaust don't add up there wasn't a population of 6 million Jews in occupied Europe to exterminate .

Derry

I think you will find you are wrong.

stuar

Good read and truthful..........................heavy on the eyes, seperate and conquer!.........What I mean is leave gaps for people to get their bearings..

stuar

Anynama141 wrote: »

I think you will find you are wrong.

How come?

Anynama141

stuar wrote: »

How come?

The Republic of Ireland is not subservient to the UK, legally or otherwise.

stuar

Anynama141 wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland is not subservient to the UK, legally or otherwise.

Please mate, look deeper, we still have "their" laws, Devalera was their puppet, my great grandfather was very close to dev, but he sold us out, just ask Michael Collins, ohh no you cant, coz he's dead a long time.

Please look deeper than your primary history books and get back.............

blindside88

stuar wrote: »

Please mate, look deeper, we still have "their" laws, Devalera was their puppet, my great grandfather was very close to dev, but he sold us out, just ask Michael Collins, ohh no you cant, coz he's dead a long time.

Please look deeper than your primary history books and get back.............

I think you'll find that we use "their laws" as a basis for our own, they are not word for word. Do you really expect a fledgling country to start from scratch and create new precedents for everything (postal rule etc.) I'm not saying our completely wrong but would you expect them to start from scratch with English culture and custom being so closely aligned to our own

stuar

blindside88 wrote: »

I think you'll find that we use "their laws" as a basis for our own, they are not word for word. Do you really expect a fledgling country to start from scratch and create new precedents for everything (postal rule etc.) I'm not saying our completely wrong but would you expect them to start from scratch with English culture and custom being so closely aligned to our own

History of the Law

1691 - present

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/8b9125171cfba78080256de5004011f8

Anynama141

blindside88 wrote: »

I think you'll find that we use "their laws" as a basis for our own, they are not word for word. Do you really expect a fledgling country to start from scratch and create new precedents for everything (postal rule etc.) I'm not saying our completely wrong but would you expect them to start from scratch with English culture and custom being so closely aligned to our own

What difference is it whose legal system we use?

If you use a second-hand car or live in a second-hand house, are you under the control of the previous owner?

Even someone who only studied primary school history should know that the legal system is only a tool at the disposal of a society.

blindside88

Anynama141 wrote: »

What difference is it whose legal system we use?

If you use a second-hand car or live in a second-hand house, are you under the control of the previous owner?

Even someone who only studied primary school history should know that the legal system is only a tool at the disposal of a society.

That's exactly what I'm saying. We simply used the English system as a framework for our own. We are not under their control