Question for the racers - frame or groupset?

kingoffifa

Hi lads,

long story short - friend of a friend is getting into triathlons.
They were out in Cycle Super Store in Tallaght and were were shown 2 carbon bikes - A Cube and a Lapierre.

They both were carbon frame around the 1500 euro mark. He asked which I would go for and I said I know a lad with a Cube and he was happy out.

It wasn't till i got home when I looked up the bikes that both were kitted with Tiagra groupsets.

So which do you chose if you have to? carbon frame first or decent groupset?

I'm siding with groupset but would love to hear a few good reasons to convince the man to spend his money on something else.

Chips Lovell

Frame.

But €1,500 for a bike with Tiagra is taking the mick. He'll get better value elsewhere.

kingoffifa

He has been told of canyon I won't bring him to the darkside of boardmans:) Thanks for the answer.

Zyzz

I'd also go with frame.

A standard groupset that is in perfect working order is as good as the expensive stuff*. I say that because I've tried many group sets (from bog standard to top of the line) and I personally felt there wasn't much of a difference between..or maybe that was my wallet speaking

Obviously if you have the money go with the expensive stuff (red/campy etc) but if not, get yourself a solid frame and upgrade the components at a later date! (105 for example)

(*to an extent, to the amateur cyclist that is training and doing a small bit of racing to get better, a groupset like the tiagra is fine.)

Harrybelafonte

I disagree, I'd go with a good groupset on a half decent frame over a carbon frame with low end groupset. Better shifting, less friction, less weight. I've had this conversation with a few lads and they all would have preferred the same when racing.

niceonetom

Trick question. The answer is wheels.

RoboRat

what about this? Carbon fibre frame with 105 groupset AND Mavic wheels...

http://eurocycles.com/ie/product/felt/z5-gloss-dupont-race-red

or this one with carbon frame & ultegra groupset

http://eurocycles.com/ie/product/focus/cayo-2-0-race

dermur

RoboRat wrote: »

or this one with carbon frame & ultegra groupset

http://eurocycles.com/ie/product/focus/cayo-2-0-race

In fairness, I doubt you'd do much better than that Focus - they don't seem to skimp on good components. Frame very similar to Cube also.

I'd go for frame over groupset - you can always build around the frame afterwards. Let's not get carried away with counting the grams but surely a lighter frame will offer more potential weight savings over a lighter groupset?

lennymc

id go frame and then replace the groupset over time. Its a lot easier to sneak a derailleur into the house than a frame

kingoffifa

@ Zyzz - Thanks - I thought that 105 would be a minimum. not so much the weight but for the difference in shifting under pressure.

@ Harrybelafonte - Thanks - a dissenter among the masses. Lets see if we can get to agree.

@ niceonetom - HAHA - I had that down for the first upgrade. I did tell them to start saving.

@ RoboRat - Thanks for the links. I haven't looked at eurobabies since i got totally done on a set of pedals. paid 84 euro for a set of m324 pedal. no - i hadn't heard of crc at the time - or mikes bike of dun laoghaire who were a hell of a lot closer to the real price! Felt is in the size required - Focus alas is not.

@dermur This is true. I am dealing with someone who thinks they only have to spend once. haha! To be fair they are willing to throw a bit of cash and not sticking to €1000 mantra of the Bike to work scheme. My initial thinking was the carbon framed bikes they looked at would be 105 so hence the question. In the long run I think we could all say you are better spending the cash in the long run.

@ lennymc - "he" doesn't have to - its a woman the bike is for. I have asked about the sister already

Icyseanfitz

id go for the best frame you can get, the new tiagra is meant to be pretty good anyway

dermur

kingoffifa wrote: »

To be fair they are willing to throw a bit of cash and not sticking to €1000 mantra of the Bike to work scheme.

Most bike shops, if you ask them, will tell you that you can capitalise on the BTW scheme even if you have your eye on a bike worth more than the €1000. So, just because you're looking at a €1500 bike doesn't mean the BTW scheme isn't an option.

The shop will gladly sort out the paper work for you...

C3PO

Or for a bit more you could have the best of both worlds!

http://kinetixproducts.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=403

1750W

I bought a Cube Agree HPA aluminium in 2011 with ultegra brake levers and gear mechanisms. Better than any low end Carbon fibre bike with Tiagra Sora by a country Mile.

I rode this frame in Gran canaria it was great climbing. The descending handling was sublime better than a Carbon fibre frame I paid over a grand for. and as for sprinting I even managed to win a race on it with a 50/34 compact Chainset! So Cube Agree HPA all the way..

Icyseanfitz

yeah carbon frames are not always better than alu frames, id put my cannondale caad 10 alu up against any carbon bike in the same price range (1500-2000)

1750W

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

yeah carbon frames are not always better than alu frames, id put my cannondale caad 10 alu up against any carbon bike in the same price range (1500-2000)

CAAD 10 is the dogs Balaerics when it comes to Aluminium that's why so many bike hire companies use them.

Icyseanfitz

1750W wrote: »

CAAD 10 is the dogs Balaerics when it comes to Aluminium that's why so many bike hire companies use them.

im slowly upgrading it to a level that the frame deserves, bought the 105, shimano rs10 equipped model a year ago, hoping to stick some rs 80's and sram red onto it eventually

1750W

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

im slowly upgrading it to a level that the frame deserves, bought the 105, shimano rs10 equipped model a year ago, hoping to stick some rs 80's and sram red onto it eventually

Sram Red? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Ive had Force and rode Sram Red no difference Finnicky as hell id prefer 105 over it anyday.

1750W

Sorry for so many posts but just read that the bike is for a girl. in which case the cube Axial which is Alu with woman specific geometry and a carbon EC70 fork is a great buy! again ultegra Shifters front and rear mech for around 1600 euros!

I bought one for MRS 1750W and she loves it! Its shiny as anything and hasn't had as much as a puncture since the day we bought it.

Zyzz

1750W wrote: »

Sram Red? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Ive had Force and rode Sram Red no difference Finnicky as hell id prefer 105 over it anyday.

105 over sram red? Srs?

Seweryn

Zyzz wrote: »

105 over sram red? Srs?

105 over Sram Rival or Force? Never. I bought my CAAD 10 with 105, throw it away after a week or two and put all Sram Rival. Miles ahead.

Zyzz

Seweryn wrote: »

105 over Sram Rival or Force? Never. I bought my CAAD 10 with 105, throw it away after a week or two and put all Sram Rival. Miles ahead.

so IYO, sram rival is the best out there?

Seweryn

Zyzz wrote: »

so IYO, sram rival is the best out there?

Rival is probably best value, as there is very little difference in performance between Rival and Force.

seanin4711

1300
full carbon with sram rival all round in Athlone!
Great value for money!
300 up front 1000 on the BTW scheme sweet as a nut!

1750W

Seweryn wrote: »

105 over Sram Rival or Force? Never. I bought my CAAD 10 with 105, throw it away after a week or two and put all Sram Rival. Miles ahead.

what do you base that on Sram front mechs are rubbish as the don't trim! as for rear mech shifting constant tuning problems and gears slipping. Not to mention the day I was heading up Mt leinster and had to ride back in a 39x11 or 53x11 as the gear lever just sheared of after 6 weeks 2400km use




But hey if Rival works for you at that price coola boola.

Seaneh

seanin4711 wrote: »

1300
full carbon with sram rival all round in Athlone!
Great value for money!
300 up front 1000 on the BTW scheme sweet as a nut!

€1184 from the UK site at the minute is hard to beat for value.

The planet X pro carbon SL frame is a really nice frame as well.

Seaneh

1750W wrote: »

what do you base that on Sram front mechs are rubbish as the don't trim! as for rear mech shifting constant tuning problems and gears slipping. Not to mention the day I was heading up Mt leinster and had to ride back in a 39x11 or 53x11 as the gear lever just sheared of after 6 weeks 2400km use




But hey if Rival works for you at that price coola boola.

After trying several bikes with various shimano and sram groups I've come to the following conclusion.

I'd rather have apex than 105 and I'd take Rivel over ultegra and force or red over Dura Ace.

I prefer the doubletap shifting system, I prefer the ergonomics of SRAM, I find SRAM's shifting to be a lot smoother and reliable and, most importantly, I think the groups look a lot better.

kingoffifa

annnnd page 2 handbags at dawn!!!

The tax man

kingoffifa wrote: »

annnnd page 2 handbags at dawn!!!

It'll all kick off when someone mentions the "C" word.;)

Seaneh

The tax man wrote: »

It'll all kick off when someone mentions the "C" word.;)

I've read online, a lot, that campag centaur is the best value for money group, but I've never used one, so can't comment :P

Seweryn

1750W wrote: »

what do you base that on Sram front mechs are rubbish as the don't trim! as for rear mech shifting constant tuning problems and gears slipping. Not to mention the day I was heading up Mt leinster and had to ride back in a 39x11 or 53x11 as the gear lever just sheared of after 6 weeks 2400km use

Front mechanism works perfectly. It trims. But if you set it up correctly, even trimming is not needed.

Rear mechanism is really crisp. Never needed any adjustments and is in constant (ab)use now for over 26,000 km.

All in all, a brilliant gruppo.

petethedrummer

Does the buyer in question already have a road bike or any sort of training bike or is this her first one?

kingoffifa

Hi,

No I believe it's her first I believe.

dave_o_brien

Question: what is more important, a frame or a groupset?

Response: Sram is better than Shimano/Shimano is better than Sram/Campag, b*tches.

This must be hugely helpful to the op...

DirkVoodoo

I'd say frame.

But I'd put correct fit/comfort above both of these. Most people don't care about what groupset they have as long as it works.

petethedrummer

kingoffifa wrote: »

Hi,

No I believe it's her first I believe.

Will she maintain and clean an expensive groupset? Does she know the price of a replacement ultegra (or equivalent) cassette?

Will she be okay to take a nice carbon frame out on a crappy day on crappy roads for a bit of training or commuting?

I'd buy a winter trainer. But that's not sexy.:)

Seaneh

Actually, yeah.
As above.

Something like a Ribble Winter Trainer with a Sora or Tiagra groupset or a Cannondale CAAD8/Specialised Allez/Giant Defy with Sora or Tiagra, would be more than enough for anyone who wants a bike for anything except racing past A4 level.

The Ribble has the benefir of coming fitted with mudguards and has pannier rack mounts.

chakattack

Seweryn wrote: »

105 over Sram Rival or Force? Never. I bought my CAAD 10 with 105, throw it away after a week or two and put all Sram Rival. Miles ahead.

Are you not replacing parts twice a month? :cool:

I've never used SRAM but have heard bad reports about reliability from many sources here and in person including some very good racers.

The doubletap thing sounds beyond weird but maybe I should try it.

I'd say nice frame and wheels over group every time...and don't buy a training bike if you want a race bike, there's a world of difference.

Morrisseeee

The last thing I'd buy is a cheap carbon frame (not incl half price deals or offers etc).

petethedrummer

chakattack wrote: »

I'd say nice frame and wheels over group every time...and don't buy a training bike if you want a race bike, there's a world of difference.

This is for someone dipping their toe into triathlons who it appears doesn't own a bike.

1750W

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Question: what is more important, a frame or a groupset?

Response: Sram is better than Shimano/Shimano is better than Sram/Campag, b*tches.

This must be hugely helpful to the op...

ok went slightly of topic but relax man!

happytramp

Seaneh wrote: »

I've read online, a lot, that campag centaur is the best value for money group, but I've never used one, so can't comment :P

It's weirdly good value. From some ebay sellers it's only about £50 dearer 105, despite being more in line with Ultegra performance wise and actually a good bit lighter than Ultegra. Got the carbon version and it looks the absolute nuts. It also shifts well if that sort of thing is important to you. But did I mention it looks the absolute nuts?

dave_o_brien

1750W wrote: »

ok went slightly of topic but relax man!

I know, I'm only slagging! For what it's worth, a very experienced clubmate told me long ago that the priority should be:

1. Frame
2. Wheels
3. Chainset

Everything else need only work. Having now cycled for many years, and worked in bike shops, and heard all the arguments every which way, I think he was dead right. Sram/shimano/campy is unimportant, as long as whatever it is works.

Seweryn

chakattack wrote: »

Are you not replacing parts twice a month? :cool:

Depends which parts, but generally no, I do not .

chakattack wrote: »

I've never used SRAM but have heard bad reports about reliability from many sources here and in person including some very good racers.

I am a commuter, not a racer, but the Sram Rival bits on my bike have been in constant use in all possible conditions for over 26,000 km... and not a single part needed to be replaced (except the obvious wear and tear, like chain and brake pads - few times and and the cassette - replaced once). All cables are still original and the gear changes are very precise, as the first day since in use.

seanin4711

Seaneh wrote: »

€1184 from the UK site at the minute is hard to beat for value.

The planet X pro carbon SL frame is a really nice frame as well.

they should price match as they are one in the same!
even better!

Coronal

chakattack wrote: »

I've never used SRAM but have heard bad reports about reliability from many sources here and in person including some very good racers.

There is a well known issue with the Rival shifters in that the levers can snap off. The lever is held into the mechanism by a small piece of metal, this piece can break. Mine went after 15,000 km, but I've had no other issues and it was replaced under warranty.

Dubba

I've broken two Rival shifters at different times over a a few years and have heard of may people with the same issues. Supposedly Force and Red are made of sterner stuff but I've changed to 105's and happy out with that.

So re the OP's question - fully functional groupset most important, then frame, then wheels. If shifting is fine - frame, wheels, groupset.

Rua_ri

Seweryn wrote: »

Depends which parts, but generally no, I do not .


I am a commuter, not a racer, but the Sram Rival bits on my bike have been in constant use in all possible conditions for over 26,000 km... and not a single part needed to be replaced (except the obvious wear and tear, like chain and brake pads - few times and and the cassette - replaced once). All cables are still original and the gear changes are very precise, as the first day since in use.

Just read your other post where you said that you are replacing your SRAM jockey wheels for the second time. That doesn't seem very reliable to me.

Seweryn

Rua_ri wrote: »

Just read your other post where you said that you are replacing your SRAM jockey wheels for the second time. That doesn't seem very reliable to me.

Bearings wear and tear. It surprised me that they lasted so many thousands of kilometres in the weather conditions I cycle in. In fairness the bearings (the bottom jockey wheel especially) are very exposed to water spray. No matter it was Sram or any other make, if they last longer than say 10,000 km (they did in fact) that is a lot of life for these tiny bearings in my opinion.