interesting article

Ludikrus

Would be interested to hear what folks thing about this?

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/smoking-may-be-a-sign-of-psychiatric-illness-says-report-29163116.html

BeerNut

Moved to Psychology.

Lbeard

This is a known phenomenon. Tobacco is anxiolytic (it reduces anxiety). People with psychiatric problems who smoke heavily are self-medicating.

If I was a heavy smoker, who suffered from anxiety, I would go to my GP and ask for a blood test. Then ask the GP to check for thyroid and adrenal function. If you're suffering from depression ask for the same test.

JuliusCaesar

Lbeard wrote: »

This is a known phenomenon. Tobacco is anxiolytic (it reduces anxiety).

It is? Provide some evidence, please.

Lbeard

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

It is? Provide some evidence, please.

From psychminded.co.uk

It is estimated that 70% of patients in psychiatric hospital smoke, and 50% are heavy smokers. This compares with 25% and 9%, respectively, of non-patients.


It's obvious they are self medicating. Or do you think psychiatric patients are especially hedonistic?

Lbeard

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

It is? Provide some evidence, please.

You may have seen a newspaper article sometime last week. It was in the Metro. It's been found that there are genetic markers that predispose people to smoking. This is old research (2008 University of Utah).

I know non smokers have a smug sense of moral superiority, but it just could be the case that they're not biologically predisposed to nicotine addiction. And that smokers have a different subjective experience, they remedy with tobacco. A somatic cause, and not a moral one. And they probably require a medical solution, and not finger wagging by finger waggers on high horses.

People experience anxiety differently. From people with terrible phobias that effect their ability to function, to psychopaths who do not experience anxiety or distress within in a range that could be considered healthy - or to a point their subjective experience is pathological.

Addictions can be symptomatic of a physiological condition. Sufferers of sickle cell anemia are predisposed to substance abuse - because they're in constant pain. If psychiatric patients are have a statistically higher disposition to smoking, then the correlation is most likely symptomatic of their conditions.

dar100

This paper suggests that smoking actually increases anxiety related disorders, which I tend to agree with considering the physiologically effects it has on the body i.e increased heart rate. Additionally other stimulants such as coffee and cocaine may also produce likely effects and precipitate anxiety. All that the paper that you mention points to is a link between people that smoke and mental disorder, to suggest that one causes another has not been proved.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=193251

Lbeard

dar100 wrote: »

This paper suggests that smoking actually increases anxiety related disorders, which I tend to agree with considering the physiologically effects it has on the body i.e increased heart rate.

Yes, that's true but tobacco isn't a single effect. The smoker is regulating their intake. And strangely tobacco can have a stimulant effect as well as a sedative effect.

Additionally other stimulants such as coffee and cocaine may also produce likely effects and precipitate anxiety.

It's not that straightforward. Stimulants can help some people cope with anxiety. People use cocaine because it has a euphoric effect, and can fill the person with a sense of confidence. Anxiety and paranoia are also an effect of cocaine use, but no one is deliberately taking cocaine to feel anxious and paranoid.

All that the paper that you mention points to is a link between people that smoke and mental disorder, to suggest that one causes another has not been proved.

There is a statistical correlation, that doesn't prove a causality, but it does strongly indicate a relationship.

JuliusCaesar

Lbeard wrote: »

From psychminded.co.uk

It is estimated that 70% of patients in psychiatric hospital smoke, and 50% are heavy smokers. This compares with 25% and 9%, respectively, of non-patients.


It's obvious they are self medicating. Or do you think psychiatric patients are especially hedonistic?

No it isn't. Provide some research evidence to back up your claims. This is after all a science forum.

Lbeard

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

No it isn't. Provide some research evidence to back up your claims. This is after all a science forum.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1199553/


Nicotine facilitates the release of other neurotransmitters, including acetylcholine (ACh), endogenous opioid peptides (EOPs), γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA), glutamate (Glu), norepinephrine (NE), and serotonin (5-HT), which are also involved in the pathogenesis of PD and SUD.16 These biochemical and pharmacological findings provide a conceptual link between cigarette smoking and putative neurobiological abnormalities underlying several PD and SUD. A summary of the neurotransmitter systems that may contribute to the higher rates of smoking in PD and SUDs is given in Table 1.

Lbeard

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

No it isn't. Provide some research evidence to back up your claims. This is after all a science forum.

You didn't think I was going to pull that rabbit out of a hat, did you?

Valmont

LBeard, could you explain how your copied and pasted section of text conclusively demonstrates that smoking is a form of self-medication?
We all engage in thousands of activities every day which also facilitate the release of neurotransmitters; from drinking coffee, listening to music, to solving a puzzle. Why shouldn't we consider these activities forms of self-medication too?

Is it any surprise that stressed, sad, anxious, or bereaved people smoke more than others? Only in our modern therapeutic society where we medicalise more and more of human behaviour every year could this common sense fact be presented as a scientific discovery of some sort.

From the Indo wrote:

Nicotine appears to provide some relief from symptoms of anxiety, depression and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder which may explain why people with these conditions become smokers.

Stripped of the psychiatric jargon, what we are saying is that some people smoke to make themselves feel better, and to relax. Talk about stating the obvious.

LBeard wrote:

There is a statistical correlation, that doesn't prove a causality, but it does strongly indicate a relationship.

This is the basis of all psychiatric 'science'. People routinely acknowledge that correlation doesn't imply causation but go on to talk about 'strong relationships', assuming the actual evidence is just around the corner. A century of psychiatry and we still don't have the biological basis of even one condition.

Lbeard

Valmont wrote: »

LBeard, could you explain how your copied and pasted section of text conclusively demonstrates that smoking is a form of self-medication?

You can read the whole paper, but the segment I posted should be clear.

We all engage in thousands of activities every day which also facilitate the release of neurotransmitters; from drinking coffee, listening to music, to solving a puzzle. Why shouldn't we consider these activities forms of self-medication too?

Smoking is ingesting a powerful drug. Give a cigarette to someone who doesn't smoke, let them inhale deeply a few times, and then watch them collapse. And people drink coffee to wake up, not fall asleep.

Is it any surprise that stressed, sad, anxious, or bereaved people smoke more than others? Only in our modern therapeutic society where we medicalise more and more of human behaviour every year could this common sense fact be presented as a scientific discovery of some sort.

Smoking is a serious issue. And so are other substance abuse issues.

Stripped of the psychiatric jargon, what we are saying is that some people smoke to make themselves feel better, and to relax. Talk about stating the obvious.

You can say that about the ordinary population, the statistics would indicate that for the population of people with psychiatric disorders their smoking is pathological. Maybe you can't even say that about the ordinary population - maybe all smoking is pathological.

This is the basis of all psychiatric 'science'. People routinely acknowledge that correlation doesn't imply causation but go on to talk about 'strong relationships', assuming the actual evidence is just around the corner. A century of psychiatry and we still don't have the biological basis of even one condition.

You are completely wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothyroidism is one example. If you want to know why Hitler was so crazy, that's the why.

If there is any significant statistical deviation in the tastes or anything of the PD population, then there is an indication that that difference is pathological.

Valmont

Lbeard wrote: »

You are completely wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothyroidism is one example. If you want to know why Hitler was so crazy, that's the why.

Hypothyroidism isn't a mental illness; it's an actual (i.e. objectively verifiable) medical condition. But I don't see how that could explain Hitler's political beliefs? Is there a documented trend of people with underactive thyroids becoming fascists?

Lbeard

Valmont wrote: »

Hypothyroidism isn't a mental illness; it's an actual (i.e. objectively verifiable) medical condition.

And the symptoms are?

And you're still wrong. Not all medical conditions are objectively verifiable. Pain is largely subjective - it generally isn't objectively verifiable.

But I don't see how that could explain Hitler's political beliefs? Is there a documented trend of people with underactive thyroids becoming fascists?

There are political beliefs and then there is mania.

Valmont

Lbeard wrote: »

And the symptoms are?

You seem to be implying that if an actual disease predisposes someone to act in a particular way then that disease is also a mental illness. This logic should tell you that a headache is a mental illness because it makes people grumpy.

Lbeard wrote: »

And the symptoms are?
And you're still wrong. Not all medical conditions are objectively verifiable. Pain is largely subjective - it generally isn't objectively verifiable.

And pain as reported by a patient in itself isn't considered a disease or a disorder. It's a symptom. Hypothyroidism is an objectively verifiable medical condition, not the moods or behaviours that may result from it. It is important not to confuse the two.

Lbeard wrote:

There are political beliefs and then there is mania.

No, I'm sorry, Nazism was a comprehensive political system. You can't just decide it wasn't to suit your absurd theory about hypothyroidic Nazis.

Lbeard

Valmont wrote: »

You seem to be implying that if an actual disease predisposes someone to act in a particular way then that disease is also a mental illness. This logic should tell you that a headache is a mental illness because it makes people grumpy.

Reductio ad absurdum

It's not me implying anything. It's the science.

Valmont

Lbeard wrote: »

Reductio ad absurdum

Yes, that is the logical approach I used to dispose of your notion that hypothyroidism is a mental illness because it might contribute to somebody acting in a particular way. From Wikipedia: "Reductio ad absurdum is a common form of argument...to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance"

Your logic compels you to consider any physical condition as a mental illness if in even one instance it might contribute to somebody behaving in a certain manner. Obviously when we think of headaches, sore feet, and paper cuts in this manner the absurdity of the argument is clear.

I think this issue brings to light a grander point about mental illness though. Insofar as we consider mental illnesses as particular patterns of behaviour believed by some to be 'pathological' or 'unhealthy', there ultimately is no reason why we shouldn't consider any behavioural pattern as a mental illness -- presuming of course enough people can agree that it is 'pathological' (this is the cultural element of mental illness).

Lbeard

Valmont wrote: »

Your logic compels you to consider any physical condition as a mental illness if in even one instance it might contribute to somebody behaving in a certain manner. Obviously when we think of headaches, sore feet, and paper cuts in this manner the absurdity of the argument is clear.

No, you're creating a Strawman. Hypothyroidism is known to cause depression. And other symptoms that fall into the realm of psychiatry. By you're logic you're dismissing postpartum depression as something akin to a grumpiness at a bellyache.

I think this issue brings to light a grander point about mental illness though. Insofar as we consider mental illnesses as particular patterns of behaviour believed by some to be 'pathological' or 'unhealthy', there ultimately is no reason why we shouldn't consider any behavioural pattern as a mental illness -- presuming of course enough people can agree that it is 'pathological' (this is the cultural element of mental illness).

You're wrong. Behaviour follows experience. It's a reaction to experience. A depressed person experiences depression. They don't necessarily have to go out and do something extraordinary in public to have a mental health issue - they may feel terrible but be able to function at a level no one notices.

Lots of people are away with the fairies. As long as they can turn in a passable semblance of sanity they get to stay out of the bin.

JuliusCaesar

Hypothyroidism isn't known to cause depression. Depression can be a symptom of hypothyroidism - not the same thing at all. In fact, depression may be secondary to all the other symptoms. In any case, curing the physical complaint cures all the symptoms.

"Behaviour follows experience?" I've no idea what that is supposed to mean. It sounds like something a first year undergrad might say, but it makes no sense in psychological terms. Lbeard, please remember that most regular users of this forum are actually working psychologists with different areas of expertise. If you don't actually KNOW something, admit it; or I'll be forced to hand out a ban for being an annoying so-and-so.

Are you equating depression with "being away with the fairies"?

(That paper you gave to support your self-medicating argument does not in fact do so in any way.)



Linky

The signs and symptoms of hypothyroidism vary, depending on the severity of the hormone deficiency. But in general, any problems you have tend to develop slowly, often over a number of years.

At first, you may barely notice the symptoms of hypothyroidism, such as fatigue and weight gain, or you may simply attribute them to getting older. But as your metabolism continues to slow, you may develop more obvious signs and symptoms. Hypothyroidism signs and symptom may include:

Fatigue
Increased sensitivity to cold
Constipation
Dry skin
Unexplained weight gain
Puffy face
Hoarseness
Muscle weakness
Elevated blood cholesterol level
Muscle aches, tenderness and stiffness
Pain, stiffness or swelling in your joints
Heavier than normal or irregular menstrual periods
Thinning hair
Slowed heart rate
Depression
Impaired memory
When hypothyroidism isn't treated, signs and symptoms can gradually become more severe. Constant stimulation of your thyroid gland to release more hormones may lead to an enlarged thyroid (goiter). In addition, you may become more forgetful, your thought processes may slow, or you may feel depressed.

Lbeard

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Hypothyroidism isn't known to cause depression. Depression can be a symptom of hypothyroidism - not the same thing at all.

The condition causes the symptom. Without the condition there is no symptom.

In fact, depression may be secondary to all the other symptoms. In any case, curing the physical complaint cures all the symptoms.

All possible symptoms do not need to manifest themselves. Many people with hypothyroidism never experience enough of the possible symptoms to know they're unwell. On the other hand other people will.

"Behaviour follows experience?" I've no idea what that is supposed to mean. It sounds like something a first year undergrad might say, but it makes no sense in psychological terms.

A subject's behaviour is driven by their experience of the world. The experience of the being-in-the-world, and the being-in-itself drives behaviour. I know in certain therapies the put the cart before the horse but without the experience of the being there can be no behaviour.

Lbeard, please remember that most regular users of this forum are actually working psychologists with different areas of expertise.

Yes, well, a little expertise is a little expertise. And come on. There people who train, get jobs, and they're still clueless.

If you don't actually KNOW something, admit it; or I'll be forced to hand out a ban for being an annoying so-and-so.

Maybe it's you trying my patience. Did it cross your mind that they're could be very sound reasons why I would know more about this subject than you?

Are you equating depression with "being away with the fairies"?

Depressives, no. They tend to have a clearer view of the world. Not a pleasant view. The people away with the faeries tend to have very tightly held beliefs about themselves and the world that are not really anything more than strange fantasies.

(That paper you gave to support your self-medicating argument does not in fact do so in any way.)

One of us, is exposing their ignorance.


Nicotine facilitates the release of other neurotransmitters, including acetylcholine (ACh), endogenous opioid peptides (EOPs), γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA), glutamate (Glu), norepinephrine (NE), and serotonin (5-HT), which are also involved in the pathogenesis of PD and SUD.

16 These biochemical and pharmacological findings provide a conceptual link between cigarette smoking and putative neurobiological abnormalities underlying several PD and SUD.


A summary of the neurotransmitter systems that may contribute to the higher rates of smoking in PD and SUDs is given in Table 1.



Infarcted. You were warned. JC