Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
The GUI - fair play, in fairness.
-
26-03-2013 4:01pm#1
Comments
-
-
-
-
ShriekingSheet wrote: »I just read a really interesting topic on the Tennis (Raquet Sports) Forum which got me thinking. It's about how Ireland doesn't produce any (or very few) international standard professional players. I'm not a tennis officianado, and I'm sure someone can point out that Conor Niland and others have great achievements, but I thought of the Tennis situation in contrast to Golf.
They're similar sports, fairly minority, with the vast, vast majority of players treating them as a hobby, and the bulk of whom are in their middle age, or later years.
However, in stark contrast, golf in Ireland has maintained and developed an excellent and sizeable core of elite junior, college and adult amateur competition, churning out professional players of international calibre regularly - not just your major winning McIlroys and Harringtons, but Lowry, Lawrie, McGrane, Hoey, Darcy, Smyth... - we have an embarassment of riches.
Anyway, during the tennis thread, someone mentioned an organisation called "Tennis Ireland", in a negative light, intimating that the Irish governing body weren't doing a whole lot to drive the sport along, and stop it being dropped as a B or C sport by talented young sports people who opt for rugby, golf, football, athletics etc.
I don't know how true that suggestion is, but it just made me think that, feckin' hell, while they get some flack (not least on this board / not least from myself), you have to hand it to the GUI. Most of us think of them as an odd group of oul lads in matching rain gear, but if you look at the cold hard facts, they're a world class organisation. They have a structure in place that has brilliant young sports people chosing golf over sexier sports like rugby, football etc - which is some achievement. And they balance that nurturing of talent and catering to the elite game, with a reasonably good stab at looking after the rest of us hackers via interclub comps etc.
It's only when you put them in rough context with the likes of the aforementioned Tennis people, and even the amateur (or professional tbh) wing of the FAI, or the bizare situation with the TWO olympic/athletics bodies, no matter what way you slice it (lol), they do a great job.
As BroadSheet would say: fair play, in fairness.
I don't think it's a fair comparison that you've used there SS and I think you've forgot a few major points.
I've tried to find figures around Irish & worldwide participation for Tennis & Golf but I can't find anything concrete.
However, if we were to assume that both sports command the same level of participation from juniors in this country then the next thing we have to look at is the popularity of the sport worldwide.
Again, I could not find worldwide participation levels but it's clear to see that Tennis is a far more popular sport than Golf (Golf is growing fast but still way down the list) I was surprised to see tennis ranked in the Top 5 sports tbh.
With this in mind, our junior tennis players represent a drop in the ocean when it comes to worldwide figures, whereas our golfers represent a much bigger % of worldwide participants and thus we should be more successful in breaking into the elite of the sport.
We also have the comparable advantage of training facilities relative to the rest of the world in golf. Higher number of courses per population etc and a very good standard of same for younger players to develop there skills on.
Then there's the fact that there's a lot more exposure to the "elite" athletes in both sports.
We normally get to see or hear about the last 32, 16, 8.... tennis players in their competitions whereas we can hear or see up to 150 golfers each weekend (on the various tours)
E.g of this, the 200th ranked golfer in the world is Davies Love 3rd, the 200th ranked tennis player is FACUNDO ARGUELLO... not a house hold name you'll argree
I'm not sure if the GUI do a good or bad job to be honest, but I don't think the points you've made to justify the singling out of the GUI for praise over the likes of their Tennis counterparts are fair.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
ShriekingSheet wrote: »Look at football in this country. The FAI and the youth leagues and organisations below them are fairly all over the place, even leaving aside the nonsense at international/board level. The schoolboy leagues put sh*t-kicking, physical players as the first names on the team sheet, and discourage technically gifted players from playing with any kind of flair, either by lambasting them for losing the ball, or by ensuring the aforementioned physical guys nail them early in the game. And look what we get for it in terms of a national league? And for all our massive youth participation rates, the most likely chance guys have to make it is to get out of Ireland (away from our system) as young as possible.
You must have been one of those technically gifted subs SS???
Can't speak for school boy football in Dublin but I know it's run very well (ok I'll concede to "fairly well"...certainly not half as bad as you make it out to be) in Mayo were I played it.
(Here's my chance to say I played in the Eircom League Regional U-21 leagues as it was then
Crap at golf but was decent at some other sports )
I got to travel around a fair bit and play decent teams and I can tell you there was none of this caveman like football you talk of being played.
Irish football has come on in leaps and bounds and if you want to see some football played have a look at Sligo Rovers along with several other LOI clubs that play proper football.
You don't seem to be keeping a close eye our national league.
The list of players from last nights squad that cut their teeth here before moving across the water
Forde, Coleman, McClean, Wes Hoolanhan, Doyle, Long.... all very good players.
Sammon gets a separate mention as he should be back in playing in UCD at the very best.
There's a lot more lads who are on the verge of the squad too, Keith Fahey, Noel Hunt, Ward, Murphy, Myler....
Go back 15 years to the squad for the 98 world cup and I'm nearly sure you'll find just that one player, Roy Keane, that played over here in advance.
*Curtis Fleming moved back to Shels at the end of his career.
Actually, go back before Kevin Doyle and it was a rarity to have someone that played ball here before moving across to the UK, now these players make up a large chunk of the squad.
Barca and Spain have a lot to answer for in terms of raising peoples expectations!
Anyway, sorry all that is off topic I suppose, I'll tie it back by saying there are a lot less "Hackers" in Irish football than you think
0 -
ajcurry123 wrote: »You must have been one of those technically gifted subs SS???
Can't speak for school boy football in Dublin but I know it's run very well (ok I'll concede to "fairly well"...certainly not half as bad as you make it out to be) in Mayo were I played it.
(Here's my chance to say I played in the Eircom League Regional U-21 leagues as it was then Crap at golf but was decent at some other sports )
I got to travel around a fair bit and play decent teams and I can tell you there was none of this caveman like football you talk of being played.
Irish football has come on in leaps and bounds and if you want to see some football played have a look at Sligo Rovers along with several other LOI clubs that play proper football.
You don't seem to be keeping a close eye our national league.
The list of players from last nights squad that cut their teeth here before moving across the water
Forde, Coleman, McClean, Wes Hoolanhan, Doyle, Long.... all very good players.
Sammon gets a separate mention as he should be back in playing in UCD at the very best.
There's a lot more lads who are on the verge of the squad too, Keith Fahey, Noel Hunt, Ward, Murphy, Myler....
Go back 15 years to the squad for the 98 world cup and I'm nearly sure you'll find just that one player, Roy Keane, that played over here in advance.
*Curtis Fleming moved back to Shels at the end of his career.
Actually, go back before Kevin Doyle and it was a rarity to have someone that played ball here before moving across to the UK, now these players make up a large chunk of the squad.
Barca and Spain have a lot to answer for in terms of raising peoples expectations!
Anyway, sorry all that is off topic I suppose, I'll tie it back by saying there are a lot less "Hackers" in Irish football than you think
I do keep an eye on the LOI. I paid money to watch this athlete play centre forward for Shels just last weekend.
It's not just my opinion that our youth system breeds the wrong kind of footballer. Read or listen to anything by Brian Kerr, Dion Fanning, Liam Brady (when he was at Arsenal Youths), Giles... they all say it.
We indeed do have more homegrown players playing for Ireland now, but we're ranked 40th in the world. And where else would we be? The list of names you gave above are a mostly a who's who of PL relegation battlers, or Championship players. We were kicking around the top 15 in the world with Duff, Keane, Dunne, Given and previously McGrath, Bonner, Whelan, Irwin.
Don't get me wrong, I like the LOI and want to see it do well. But it's not a triumph to have the team we have now. If we had a host of LOI or ex-LOI players in a top 20 team with some success, I'd rejoyce with you then.
Anyway, we digress.
To put it back in a golf context, it's comparable to US scholarships. If the GUI was doing a lesser job, our only leading lights would probably be coming from those in the McDowell mould, who go over there and develop. However, it's not the case. While we export lots of good players to US colleges, the vast majority of our stars have come up through the local ranks - McIlroy, Harrington, Clarke, Lowry etc. There's a handful obviously do come out of the great college golf in the US, but they're in the minority.0 -
Can't argue with that, he's some sightShriekingSheet wrote: »I do keep an eye on the LOI. I paid money to watch this athlete play centre forward for Shels just last weekend.
However, Shels are a team with plenty of youth in it that may progress onto better things abroad.
My main point was refuting thisShriekingSheet wrote: »And look what we get for it in terms of a national league? And for all our massive youth participation rates, the most likely chance guys have to make it is to get out of Ireland (away from our system) as young as possible.
Which is clearly not the case anymore.
Could we be doing better? Sure.
Is it the shambles you make it out to be? Absolutely not
I think a fair case can be made that Long, Doyle, McClean, Hoolahan and Coleman are 5 of the best technical players in the Irish squad.ShriekingSheet wrote: »We indeed do have more homegrown players playing for Ireland now, but we're ranked 40th in the world. And where else would we be? The list of names you gave above are a mostly a who's who of PL relegation battlers, or Championship players. We were kicking around the top 15 in the world with Duff, Keane, Dunne, Given and previously McGrath, Bonner, Whelan, Irwin.
Oh dear, we should be a Top 15 team in the world now?
Don't tell Brazil in 18th!!!
Those years were freak years where we had an unusually good crop of talent, you're in for a surprise/disappointment if you think/expect that should be the norm.
Sitting somewhere in the 20-40 range is a decent achievement for us.
If our system is a complete shambles that you make it out to be then I'd hate to think what you think of the Scots or Welsh system who are hovering around 70th.
And your comparing Apples with Oranges again by saying we lack players playing with the elite clubs in England, take a look at the Premier league and the influx of foreign players into it over the last decade. England are now struggling to field a team with players playing in the top 4 sides.
Granted they core of the squad is made up for the big 4, however, there are only 4 of these players that are "stars" or big players at their clubs... the rest are average team players... not saying that they're bad, just that they're not massive influences at the big clubs.ShriekingSheet wrote: »Don't get me wrong, I like the LOI and want to see it do well. But it's not a triumph to have the team we have now. If we had a host of LOI or ex-LOI players in a top 20 team with some success, I'd rejoyce with you then.
Top 20 is always going to be a push for Ireland, we could have one of the best set infrastructures in the world and we'd struggle to maintain a Top 20 spot.ShriekingSheet wrote: »Anyway, we digress.
To put it back in a golf context, it's comparable to US scholarships. If the GUI was doing a lesser job, our only leading lights would probably be coming from those in the McDowell mould, who go over there and develop. However, it's not the case. While we export lots of good players to US colleges, the vast majority of our stars have come up through the local ranks - McIlroy, Harrington, Clarke, Lowry etc. There's a handful obviously do come out of the great college golf in the US, but they're in the minority.
In the last 10 years, who can we say has burst onto the seen?
GMac and Rory.... I wouldn't say Lowry has exactly made it yet but I'll throw him in. That's 3. Gmac being 1 of them.
Thats 33% of them that went to learn their trade elsewhere.
Rory is a freak talent that I don't think the GUI will hold any major claim on developing.
US college wasn't really an option or as accessible back when Clarke or Harrington day.
I think you're really overstating the role of the GUI in all this.0 -
I would not read into Brazils current world ranking, they don't have a qualification process for the World Cup because they are the hosts, they are in a phase of building for the World Cup. It is embarrassing to think the likes of Mali are ahead of us in the rankings!ajcurry123 wrote: »Oh dear, we should be a Top 15 team in the world now?
Don't tell Brazil in 18th!!!ajcurry123 wrote: »In the last 10 years, who can we say has burst onto the seen?
GMac and Rory.... I wouldn't say Lowry has exactly made it yet but I'll throw him in. That's 3. Gmac being 1 of them.
Thats 33% of them that went to learn their trade elsewhere.
Rory is a freak talent that I don't think the GUI will hold any major claim on developing.
Well there are a lot of other players also whom have not been mentioned:
Gareth Maybin, Michael Hoey, Paul Cutler, Alan Dunbar(mind you all of these are northern irish players) These are going to be players of the future!
Rory is a phenom but he was helped and developed by the GUI massively, I have seen some coaching footage from when he was 12/13/14 and it's very impressive the camps that were set up to coach him and his contempories.
If you take TW, he was developed by his dad.....not any system but the system helped him along the way.
The most promising system I would see currently is the Ernie Els Foundation, he seems to be churning out the talent!0 -
ajcurry123 wrote: »Can't argue with that, he's some sight
However, Shels are a team with plenty of youth in it that may progress onto better things abroad.
My main point was refuting this
Which is clearly not the case anymore.
Could we be doing better? Sure.
Is it the shambles you make it out to be? Absolutely not
I think a fair case can be made that Long, Doyle, McClean, Hoolahan and Coleman are 5 of the best technical players in the Irish squad.
Oh dear, we should be a Top 15 team in the world now?
Don't tell Brazil in 18th!!!
Those years were freak years where we had an unusually good crop of talent, you're in for a surprise/disappointment if you think/expect that should be the norm.
Sitting somewhere in the 20-40 range is a decent achievement for us.
If our system is a complete shambles that you make it out to be then I'd hate to think what you think of the Scots or Welsh system who are hovering around 70th.
And your comparing Apples with Oranges again by saying we lack players playing with the elite clubs in England, take a look at the Premier league and the influx of foreign players into it over the last decade. England are now struggling to field a team with players playing in the top 4 sides.
Granted they core of the squad is made up for the big 4, however, there are only 4 of these players that are "stars" or big players at their clubs... the rest are average team players... not saying that they're bad, just that they're not massive influences at the big clubs.
Top 20 is always going to be a push for Ireland, we could have one of the best set infrastructures in the world and we'd struggle to maintain a Top 20 spot.
In the last 10 years, who can we say has burst onto the seen?
GMac and Rory.... I wouldn't say Lowry has exactly made it yet but I'll throw him in. That's 3. Gmac being 1 of them.
Thats 33% of them that went to learn their trade elsewhere.
Rory is a freak talent that I don't think the GUI will hold any major claim on developing.
US college wasn't really an option or as accessible back when Clarke or Harrington day.
I think you're really overstating the role of the GUI in all this.
You're right that I'm overstating both the "shambles" of the FAI and the positive role of the GUI. To a certain extent, I've coloured the examples to highlight the differences, but the contrast is there, for sure.
Ireland have been in the world top 25 for 8 of the past 20 years. That's not a "freak" occurance.
I won't entertain the debate where you imply we're no great shakes as a golfing nation in the last 10 years. That's a non starter. We're doing great, and the GUI have some hand in that success.0 -
-
I would not read into Brazils current world ranking, they don't have a qualification process for the World Cup because they are the hosts, they are in a phase of building for the World Cup. It is embarrassing to think the likes of Mali are ahead of us in the rankings!
Mali finished 3rd in the ACN! It's only embarrassing if you forget to factor that into it.
South Africa are 60th, it's not embarrassing to say we're 20 places ahead of them, or ahead of countries like Poland, Ukraine, Turkey.Well there are a lot of other players also whom have not been mentioned:
Gareth Maybin, Michael Hoey, Paul Cutler, Alan Dunbar(mind you all of these are northern irish players) These are going to be players of the future!
I didn't mention them for the fact that they may be players of the future. I think we are fooling ourselves if we think we are really churning out elite golfers.Rory is a phenom but he was helped and developed by the GUI massively, I have seen some coaching footage from when he was 12/13/14 and it's very impressive the camps that were set up to coach him and his contempories.
If you take TW, he was developed by his dad.....not any system but the system helped him along the way.
The most promising system I would see currently is the Ernie Els Foundation, he seems to be churning out the talent!
The GUI may be doing a great job behind the scenes but they could just as well be doing an ordinary job.
The fact that I can't see any extraordinary results (players progressing to the elite of the game) leads me to conclude that they're not an extraordinary
organisation.
I'm not knocking them, an ordinary job aint a bad job, I just can't see the point in singling them out for phrase.
Ernie Els Foundation really seems to be doing a great job, maybe he's taking all the footballers of them and this has resulted in their 60th place ranking 0 -
-
ShriekingSheet wrote: »I don't understand how you can have this view, especially given how positive you are on our football output.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Re the football, please view that in it's context.
I was defending the development structure and LOI from being classified a shambles. You had a fairly big pop at those 2 areas.
Believe me, I don't think it's a great organisation, I could rant for hours giving out about the FAI... I just feel that the LOI and youth struture have been doing a good job of late.ShriekingSheet wrote: »Ah, here.
Let's leave........... 0
Advertisement