What County Managers manage to do.

AlekSmart

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/council-staff-who-tried-to-fix-pothole-suspended-without-pay-29153330.html

Somewhat incredible stuff here....with surely cause for alarm in the context of what a County Manager would see as their prime function ?

They were assigned to repair a number of potholes three weeks ago and, having completed their task, were on their way back to their council depot when they spotted another pothole.

While this was not on their repair list, they deemed it was a potential road hazard which required immediate repair.

They were in the process of fixing the pothole when a health and safety inspector spotted that the work was under way.

This thing "went viral" on U-Tube,thanks mainly to the efforts of local taxpayers,whose concerns had somehow managed to escape the County Managers beady eye.

Lucky for us all that Cork Co Co had a committed Health & Safety Inspector monitoring the situation,even if it were unsafe for for him/her to actually do anything tangible about it.

Surely to heavens,suspending or dismissing Mr Riordan and his zealous H&S Inspector would make far more sense than allowing them to make eejits out of Staff displaying some initiative and concern ?

nuac

Working on roads while traffic is passing both ways is hazardous for the workes and other road users. There has to be some system of warning traffic and avoiding accidents, so I can understand the Council's concern.

I note in parts of the USA that a policeman and car attends at each roadworks site

antoobrien

AlekSmart wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/council-staff-who-tried-to-fix-pothole-suspended-without-pay-29153330.html

Hang on a sec Alek, there's a bit of information missing from your quote which sheds light on why they were really suspended.

The suspension was triggered because the repair crew allegedly began work without having two other staff to operate 'stop-and-go' traffic directions on either side of their truck.

If that is true, then they were suspended for putting their safety - and that of the public using that road - potentially at risk. Given the amount of people killed at work each year in this country this is not exactly an overreaction from the council.

I have sympathy for them given that they were showing initiative, but seriously if I opened a computer and started tinkering near the power supply while it was on I'd expect the same response from my employers.

The question I'd have about the matter is, if they were on their way back from fixing other potholes, why wasn't the full crew (as is alleged is the problem) not with them?

AlekSmart

antoobrien wrote: »

Hang on a sec Alek, there's a bit of information missing from your quote which sheds light on why they were really suspended.

If that is true, then they were suspended for putting their safety - and that of the public using that road - potentially at risk. Given the amount of people killed at work each year in this country this is not exactly an overreaction from the council.

I have sympathy for them given that they were showing initiative, but seriously if I opened a computer and started tinkering near the power supply while it was on I'd expect the same response from my employers.

The question I'd have about the matter is, if they were on their way back from fixing other potholes, why wasn't the cull crew (as is alleged is the problem) not with them?

The other bit of information "missing",if that's the term,is the length of time this particular Pothole had been ignored by Cork Co Co for.

The Video clip clearly shows a pothole of truly massive proportions,which unless we adopt the Florida Sinkhole approach,took some time to develop (or be ignored by the County Managers systems).

I'm quite prepared to accept that the employees concerned would adopt a commonsense and reasonable approach to their own safety and that of others whilst attempting to temporarily render an obviously dangerous situation safe.

Which is the greater evil in reality ?

The workers concerned using their initiative and commonsense to carry out emergency repairs OR the workers concerned actually carrying out such emergency work in a non-sterile environment ?

Not all County Council Roadworks merit the level of H&S being currently applied to them.

The Councils approach countrywide,has been to adopt a blanket level of H&S which often sees up to 6 men protecting the single fellow actually performing the task.

In this specific instance,the evidence,which I contend shames Cork County Council and it's Manager,points to the Senior Officials being remiss rather than any Roadworkers actually doing their job!

On a journey acorss France last year,my co-driver remarked upon the significant amount of actual work being carried out on Autoroutes and National Routes with far less H&S bells and whistles by far less staff...but perhaps France is a member of a different,less safe EU,than ourselves..?

Cork Co Co or somebody with a bit of sense therein,should get a life and stop this codology right now,before it shows them up in even worse light in the real (Non H&S Fixated) world.

antoobrien

AlekSmart wrote: »

The other bit of information "missing",if that's the term,is the length of time this particular Pothole had been ignored by Cork Co Co for.

The Video clip clearly shows a pothole of truly massive proportions,which unless we adopt the Florida Sinkhole approach,took some time to develop (or be ignored by the County Managers systems).

That isn't the pothole in question, which was emergency fixed by the council after it was brought to their attention. Hell the crew that carried out the repairs were interviewed on RTE at the time.

The "pothole swimmer" footage is being used because it's also in cork.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Cork Co Co or somebody with a bit of sense therein,should get a life and stop this codology right now,before it shows them up in even worse light in the real (Non H&S Fixated) world.

Perhaps you would like to volunteer to work close to traffic with little or no protection?

washman3

BANANA REPUBLIC.......
no other words describe this country right now.
council workers fill a pothole and get suspended for showing concern for other road users. while we all agree that there is a safety procedure for filling potholes there is also something that can be used, its called common sense.
I would have little doubt that these guys would have carried out a risk assesment before they began this job, i.e. how busy was the road at the time etc.
Its just like a person crossing the road, he/she can use a pedestrian crossing if one is provided. He/she can also cross the road if a crossing does'nt exist, provied it is safe to do so.
We really do need to get some cop-on in this country.:mad:

Dannyboy83

The suspension was triggered because the repair crew allegedly began work without having two other staff to operate 'stop-and-go' traffic directions on either side of their truck.

Q1. What were they doing for the day if they didn't have enough staff? Driving around?
Q2. Why does it take 5 people to fix a pothole? Work in the area where I group up used to be sub-contracted to one private operator.

Cookie_Monster

antoobrien wrote: »

Perhaps you would like to volunteer to work close to traffic with little or no protection?

Honestly, people manage to cycle and walk on the road without issues all the time, it is not a life threatening situation and the minimal risk is perfectly justifiable under the circumstances. I mean if motorists cannot spot a huge truck with clear council markings on it stopped on the road and not apply a bit of common sense and being more aware what chance does anyone have.

Throw out a few cones, get it done quickly and efficiently and for a tiny tiny risk you've prevented the bigger risk of someone breaking a wheel one the pothole and crashing.

bmaxi

I can't believe some people are condemning the Council workers for what they did. In contrast, every day I see Gardai ignoring dangerous practices on our roads, you have to ask, which action is likely to have the more more beneficial result for road users? I don't think it's a concern about H&S from the Council's point of view, more a concern about litigation.

AlekSmart

antoobrien wrote: »

That isn't the pothole in question, which was emergency fixed by the council after it was brought to their attention. Hell the crew that carried out the repairs were interviewed on RTE at the time.

The "pothole swimmer" footage is being used because it's also in cork.

Perhaps you would like to volunteer to work close to traffic with little or no protection?

Thanks for the clarification on the Pothole Location,Anto.

The Indo really should have been clearer on that.

However,as to volunteering to work close to traffic without protection then I would have to admit to almost 20 years of such carry-on.

I regularly attended on-road situations involving vehicle breakdowns in heavy-traffic situations.

This was pre H&S fixation and the general principle of "Mind Yourself" was applied in these instances.

Self-Preservation,situational awareness and Common Sense managed to deliver me safely to this keyboard (perhaps a far more hazardous location :eek:).

What I see is the current preoccupation with H&S destroying our native ability to perform even mundane tasks without requiring structures and protocols designed to minimize or eliminate Risk.

Our very existence involves Risk,from birth to eventual death we are continually exposed to it,and in the main we deal with it pretty well.

Dealing with it,largely involves accepting it's very existance in the first place,something which over zealous H&S practitioners seemingly need us to stop.

nuac

That is all very well Aleksmart, but if an accident happens and it is found that H and S precautions had not been taken, the worker's superiors risk prosecution under that legislation. They also may expose the council to litigation.

That is the way the world is going - cya procedures everywhere

antoobrien

AlekSmart wrote: »

Dealing with it,largely involves accepting it's very existance in the first place,something which over zealous H&S practitioners seemingly need us to stop.

Alek the problem is the insurance ramifications if somebody is seriously injured i.e. left with a disability or an amputation. Please don't take this as being heartless or cynical but it's often the case that an employer would be better off financially if a work accident kills the employee outright as the payout & fines would be a smaller amount.

The H&S might seem overbearing (I know I've had run ins with them in the past over little idiotic things in factories) but the cost of not getting it right on one occasion will far outweigh any "savings" made by ignoring it.

Incidentally it was reported yesterday that claims (personal injury etc) are going up, so expect more of this in the future as employers and organisations attempt to limit their liabilities.

Lapin

This sentence near the end of the article jumped out at me the most.

"The investigation is expected to take several weeks to complete".

How the hell does an investigation into the rights and wrongs of filling in a pothole take several weeks ?

Going Forward

antoobrien wrote: »

Alek the problem is the insurance ramifications if somebody is seriously injured i.e. left with a disability or an amputation. Please don't take this as being heartless or cynical but it's often the case that an employer would be better off financially if a work accident kills the employee outright as the payout & fines would be a smaller amount.

The H&S might seem overbearing (I know I've had run ins with them in the past over little idiotic things in factories) but the cost of not getting it right on one occasion will far outweigh any "savings" made by ignoring it.

Incidentally it was reported yesterday that claims (personal injury etc) are going up, so expect more of this in the future as employers and organisations attempt to limit their liabilities.

This is why people are sent on endless courses at extreme cost, to prevent them claiming.

There is now no such thing as an "accident", everything is preventable according to the shiney suited ones making a fortune teacing basic common sense (to intelligent people) at these courses.

But of course, it all keeps someone in a job.
How did we ever manage years ago before all this red tape BS??

We need to take a step back and look at how tied up we have become with pointless regulations which have replaced clear guidelines and deter any initiative.

Many regulations are made by desk jockeys to ensure that they themselves are kept in a job by virtue of the fact each regulation generates any number of jobs- why do we have such a huge public sector? To attempt to service and implement the never ending legislation both from Ireland and the EU.

One wonders where it will all end....

nuac

I agree with GF. H and S is a fast growing industry, with all these courses to attend etc.

However insurance companies require that employers and employees attend them.

Níl aon dul as.

Going Forward

In defence of County Managers up and down this fair isle, any time I see the boys filling the holes, they always utilise cutting edge technology and state of the art materials ensuring an extremely high and consistent standard of repair.

serfboard

antoobrien wrote: »

The question I'd have about the matter is, if they were on their way back from fixing other potholes, why wasn't the cull crew (as is alleged is the problem) not with them?

That's the question I had as well.

The Irish Independent wrote:

It is understood the men were part of a council road repair crew in the south Cork area. They were assigned to repair a number of potholes three weeks ago and, having completed their task, were on their way back to their council depot when they spotted another pothole.

So where did the rest of the crew go?

The possible answer I suppose is that not all of the crew were traveling together.

It does seem overkill to me too, H&S considerations notwithstanding.

Can you imagine the response if they passed this pothole and someone saw them - "... and there the council workers went, drove right by the pothole, and did nothing about it ..."

walshb

Credit to them for trying to do the right thing, but they disregarded health and safety rules. They made a bad call, whether or not they were trying to do the right thing. Rules are there for a reason. We either enforce them or the system breaks down.

Cookie_Monster

walshb wrote: »

Credit to them for trying to do the right thing, but they disregarded health and safety rules. They made a bad call, whether or not they were trying to do the right thing. Rules are there for a reason. We either enforce them or the system breaks down.

Or we could just remove the bull**** rules to everyones benefit. H&S rules are more often than not stupid and unneeded but because of the ridiculous sueing and insurance culture that pervades they are there. These rules and the mentality that require them need to be remove from society.

Maudi

antoobrien wrote: »

Hang on a sec Alek, there's a bit of information missing from your quote which sheds light on why they were really suspended.



If that is true, then they were suspended for putting their safety - and that of the public using that road - potentially at risk. Given the amount of people killed at work each year in this country this is not exactly an overreaction from the council.

I have sympathy for them given that they were showing initiative, but seriously if I opened a computer and started tinkering near the power supply while it was on I'd expect the same response from my employers.

The question I'd have about the matter is, if they were on their way back from fixing other potholes, why wasn't the full crew (as is alleged is the problem) not with them?

you answered it yourself ,,,clapping .....they wernt 'tinkering about'THEY FIX POTHOLES..and are obviously saw and decided to fill another one that was a danger to road users (possibly users like your good self) they used what used to be called 'common'sense ..it used to be used a lot more by council workers who are on the 'ground' and see problems as the arise and fix them..unfortunetly these days they are infringed by idiotic restraints..usually by some moran behind a comp screen..

Maudi

Lapin wrote: »

This sentence near the end of the article jumped out at me the most.

"The investigation is expected to take several weeks to complete".

How the hell does an investigation into the rights and wrongs of filling in a pothole take several weeks ?

because of the takeover of what we call gob....es in offices .who as we speak are sending e.mails and correspondence back and forth that mean nothing.

antoobrien

Maudi wrote: »

you answered it yourself ,,,clapping .....they wernt 'tinkering about'THEY FIX POTHOLES..and are obviously saw and decided to fill another one that was a danger to road users (possibly users like your good self) they used what used to be called 'common'sense ..it used to be used a lot more by council workers who are on the 'ground' and see problems as the arise and fix them..unfortunetly these days they are infringed by idiotic restraints..usually by some moran behind a comp screen..

In many cases H&S rules are there to prevent employees from (often knowingly) doing the stupid things that get them hurt. Employers are held responsible for the actions of their employees performed in the name of the employer and the results/consequences of those actions, regardless of whether or not the employers directed those actions (in this case filling the pothole).

Did you ever hear of anybody climbing into a trash compactor while it was powered up? Doesn't make sense does it, but I worked in a company where two people were killed - in separate incidents, three months apart - (in the US) because they climbed into a trash compactor to clear a a blockage and one of their colleagues flipped the wrong switch. The result - a big sign that says "Do not climb into the the compactor".

If there was an accident here and the two lads got hurt (or god forbid killed) Cork CC would be held responsible for not having adequate safeguards and not following their own procedures - through the fault of the two lads. Of course the LAs have to do something about this, because if they let it slide and something bad happens later, the LAs will be on the hook.

The problem here is not that they filled in the pothole or that they took initiative, nobody is saying that (and anyone that thinks we are should remain quiet because they quiet clearly can't read) the problem is that by not following the procedures properly they potentially caused a more dangerous situation that if the pothole hadn't been fixed.

Maudi wrote: »

usually by some moran behind a comp screen..

My name isn't Moran :P and if you're trying to insult people, please invest in an English grammar book and an Oxford English dictionary (those american ones are terrible).

AlekSmart

Going Forward wrote: »

This is why people are sent on endless courses at extreme cost, to prevent them claiming.

There is now no such thing as an "accident", everything is preventable according to the shiney suited ones making a fortune teacing basic common sense (to intelligent people) at these courses.

But of course, it all keeps someone in a job.

How did we ever manage years ago before all this red tape BS??

We need to take a step back and look at how tied up we have become with pointless regulations which have replaced clear guidelines and deter any initiative.

Many regulations are made by desk jockeys to ensure that they themselves are kept in a job by virtue of the fact each regulation generates any number of jobs- why do we have such a huge public sector? To attempt to service and implement the never ending legislation both from Ireland and the EU.

One wonders where it will all end....

Well put Going Forward.

Whilst this Cork CC issue is providing the laughs this week,it does at least allows for a discussion on the actuality of what the Health & Safety fixation is doing to our abilities to live independently.

As you say,much of the H&S stuff appears based upon the premise that "Everything is Preventable".

What we now find throughout Ireland is mirroring the UK experience of 20 years ago when H&S ascended the throne there as well.

Unfortunately,it has been me experience that rather than assuming or improving upon an inherent level of Common Sense,most H&S stuff these days operates from a common denominator that existing practices are incorrect and DANGEROUS :eek: and therefore must be stopped.

There is also,in my mind,a suspicion that having sidelined "traditional" access routes into Industry and associated semi-skilled labour intensive employments,we have a a lack of people who started at the bottom and gained experience of their job as they progressed.

Instead,and particularly so within the H&S "Industry" we have a preponderance of young highly-motivated graduates full to bursting with all the latest statistics and techniques for achieving 100% compliance with the latest new,best thing in H&S.

Having achieved success in any given area these proffessionals are guaranteed a swift ascension into the clouds surrounding the H&S Mount Olympus....without ever having to get their hands dirty.

Whether the Pothole is ever filled in or any given task is ever completed is irrelevant,what is of paramount importance is the box being ticked.

Oh well....:rolleyes:

walshb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Or we could just remove the bull**** rules to everyones benefit. H&S rules are more often than not stupid and unneeded but because of the ridiculous sueing and insurance culture that pervades they are there. These rules and the mentality that require them need to be remove from society.

We could, and like I said, break down. Maybe the rules need tweaking or amending, but removal?

Maudi

antoobrien wrote: »

In many cases H&S rules are there to prevent employees from (often knowingly) doing the stupid things that get them hurt. Employers are held responsible for the actions of their employees performed in the name of the employer and the results/consequences of those actions, regardless of whether or not the employers directed those actions (in this case filling the pothole).

Did you ever hear of anybody climbing into a trash compactor while it was powered up? Doesn't make sense does it, but I worked in a company where two people were killed - in separate incidents, three months apart - (in the US) because they climbed into a trash compactor to clear a a blockage and one of their colleagues flipped the wrong switch. The result - a big sign that says "Do not climb into the the compactor".

If there was an accident here and the two lads got hurt (or god forbid killed) Cork CC would be held responsible for not having adequate safeguards and not following their own procedures - through the fault of the two lads. Of course the LAs have to do something about this, because if they let it slide and something bad happens later, the LAs will be on the hook.

The problem here is not that they filled in the pothole or that they took initiative, nobody is saying that (and anyone that thinks we are should remain quiet because they quiet clearly can't read) the problem is that by not following the procedures properly they potentially caused a more dangerous situation that if the pothole hadn't been fixed.



My name isn't Moran :P and if you're trying to insult people, please invest in an English grammar book and an Oxford English dictionary (those american ones are terrible).

ahh grammar correction..the last vestige of the moronic..(stupid.tongue sticking smiley face here.)

goose2005

A council worker died in maynooth a few weeks ago (ironically, he was actually holding the sign) - it was late afternoon and I think the sun was in the driver's eyes.

http://www.thejournal.ie/council-worker-killed-car-maynooth-748166-Jan2013/

RainyDay

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Or we could just remove the bull**** rules to everyones benefit. H&S rules are more often than not stupid and unneeded but because of the ridiculous sueing and insurance culture that pervades they are there. These rules and the mentality that require them need to be remove from society.

Maudi wrote: »

because of the takeover of what we call gob....es in offices .who as we speak are sending e.mails and correspondence back and forth that mean nothing.

Maudi wrote: »

you answered it yourself ,,,clapping .....they wernt 'tinkering about'THEY FIX POTHOLES..and are obviously saw and decided to fill another one that was a danger to road users (possibly users like your good self) they used what used to be called 'common'sense ..it used to be used a lot more by council workers who are on the 'ground' and see problems as the arise and fix them..unfortunetly these days they are infringed by idiotic restraints..usually by some moran behind a comp screen..

Yeah, sure what could go wrong with a little bit of roadworks. It's not like they're dangerous or anything.

http://www.kildare-nationalist.ie/2012/11/23/cork-county-council-worker-dies-following-workplace-accident/

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/council-worker-dies-after-being-hit-by-car-at-roadworks-28956601.html

Alun

AlekSmart wrote: »

What we now find throughout Ireland is mirroring the UK experience of 20 years ago when H&S ascended the throne there as well.

What, like the number of fatal accidents halving during that period?

http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/fatals.htm

Wildlife Actor

What should have happened:

"C'mon lads, I know you wanted to do the right thing but ye have to put up the safety signs when you're fixing potholes, or ye'' be killt. Shtone dead. And maybe a driver too. Ye can't be doing that. Now if I hear of ye doing it again there'll be trouble. Now go on.

Ye fixed it anyway?"

"Yeah"

"Grand so. Fill in a form for Johnny in Health and Safety tomorrow"