Must we Irish say "mom"?

Boulevardier

I am not at all pleased by the recent upsurge in the use of "mom" instead of "mum" in the Irish media.

This seems to mark another milestone in the transformation of Hiberno-English into mid-atlantic generic TV English.

Even if it has caught on among the populace, it does not follow that the media (such as RTE) should amplify or legitimise its use.

I am usually fairly flexible about how English is used, but in this case I would be sympathetic to the idea of asking all media outlets to discourage or better still ban the use of "mom" in an Irish context.

im invisible

ma, wheres me dinner?

ClashCityRocker

Boulevardier wrote: »

I am not at all pleased by the recent upsurge in the use of "mom" instead of "mum" in the Irish media.

The correct term is, of course, "mammy"

maximoose

Any examples of it in the media?

Honestly don't think I've ever heard any Irish person say either.

Boulevardier

Oh God yes, I have heard it on the Late late show and in a number of TV adverts. Listen out for a day or 2 and I will be very surprised if you don't come across it at least once.

deirdremf

Boulevardier wrote: »

I am not at all pleased by the recent upsurge in the use of "mom" instead of "mum" in the Irish media.

This seems to mark another milestone in the transformation of Hiberno-English into mid-atlantic generic TV English.

Even if it has caught on among the populace, it does not follow that the media (such as RTE) should amplify or legitimise its use.

I am usually fairly flexible about how English is used, but in this case I would be sympathetic to the idea of asking all media outlets to discourage or better still ban the use of "mom" in an Irish context.

Mum, mummy = Dublin 4/SCD
Mom = usa?
Ma, Mam, Mammy = Hiberno-english

efb

Oh but we must say Mummy!

Sofaspud

I'd be inclined to think of "Mum" as being more English / UK based, and "Mom" being more understandable due to the influence of US tv. "Mam", "Ma" seem to be the natual Irish way of saying it, for me. (I've always said Ma & Da)

From my understanding, the US-based "Mom" comes from the Irish "a Mhamaí" so is a more Irish-language based way of saying it, adopted by the US due to the influx of Irish immigrants.

Sulla Felix

I don't see any particular value in trying to force a particular use of language upon the populace. Surely that kind of thing went out of vogue in the 1800s?

who the fug

OP

Face it you is getting old as the youngsters are saying things which are annoying

hullaballoo

Sulla Felix wrote: »

I don't see any particular value in trying to force a particular use of language upon the populace. Surely that kind of thing went out of vogue in the 1800s?

Surely you could make some exceptions:

who the fug wrote: »

OP

Face it you is getting old as the youngsters are saying things which are annoying

Anyway, it's "mum" to me but I don't really care how other people refer to their mothers, once it's respectful.

Qualitymark

People in the West of Ireland always said Mom more than people in the east - a simple transliteration of the Irish into English. In the east people said Ma or Mammy, except for those from an English background. But in the 1960s or so Mummy started creeping over through English TV and established itself firmly in the middle classes and their acolytes, who felt it was too proletarian to say Mammy or Ma, and regarded Mom as American.

Sulla Felix

hullaballoo wrote: »

Surely you could make some exceptions:




Anyway, it's "mum" to me but I don't really care how other people refer to their mothers, once it's respectful.

I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but no, I wouldn't.

The things that you might want to change, for example derogatory terms fag, cúnt etc aren't all that amenable to the kind of social engineering that the OP is talking about. They're not used in the media by and large so a ban would be redundant.

playedalive

Sofaspud wrote: »

From my understanding, the US-based "Mom" comes from the Irish "a Mhamaí" so is a more Irish-language based way of saying it, adopted by the US due to the influx of Irish immigrants.

That's an interesting point. It could be that Mom came from the Irish 'a mhamaí'. Especially since you could compare to how Americans developed the greeting 'so long' from 'slán'. Maybe an argument could be made than the Irish 'a' vowel can be adapted to the U.S. 'o' vowel sound*.


*or maybe I'm just being too much of a language nerd

tac foley

Airplane.


GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR>

tac

Qualitymark

tac foley wrote: »

Airplane.


GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR>

tac

Aeroplane is a lost cause, I'm afraid, charmingly chocolatey though the spelling is.

Eeden

My kids call me Mom, but that's probably because I call my mother Mom (sometimes Ma); that's probably because I was brought up in the USA.

I don't get why people get so prescriptive about accents, influences on language, etc. I know I have one of those "horrible" Irish-American accents but I am not putting it on or being affected. It's just the way I speak and if I tried to change it, THAT would be unnatural.

Boulevardier

If you are brought up in the USA then that is a special case and I would not have an issue.

I do however think it is a pity that the speech of Irish-born people is becoming so Americanised.

Raic

The "mom" pronunciation is actually more traditional in Ireland than "mam", because it is like how the Irish word "mam" is pronounced. So, yes, some people may have it as a U.S. influence (which may originally be an Irish influence as some in this thread are arguing), but many (particularly) rural people still use the "mom" pronunciation as it is actually closer to the Irish.

To be perfectly honest if more people knew this there wouldn't be so much complaining and this thread wouldn't have happened.

Rented Mule

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN7biMlM_j8

Boulevardier

"To be perfectly honest if more people knew this there wouldn't be so much complaining and this thread wouldn't have happened. "

I do not agree. I started the thread because I was hearing so much (especially on the radio) use of American-style "mom" replacing "mam" or "mum" or "ma" which are the accepted Hiberno-english words.

We are developing a hideous mid-atlantic way of speaking which suggests to me a national inferiority complex. Another example is the use of "man" in expressions such as "Man, I'm tired" where we would previously have said "God, I'm tired" or "jayzus I'm tired." It is not a religious thing. It is pure Americanisation.

Raic

Boulevardier wrote: »

"To be perfectly honest if more people knew this there wouldn't be so much complaining and this thread wouldn't have happened. "

I do not agree. I started the thread because I was hearing so much (especially on the radio) use of American-style "mom" replacing "mam" or "mum" or "ma" which are the accepted Hiberno-english words.

We are developing a hideous mid-atlantic way of speaking which suggests to me a national inferiority complex. Another example is the use of "man" in expressions such as "Man, I'm tired" where we would previously have said "God, I'm tired" or "jayzus I'm tired." It is not a religious thing. It is pure Americanisation.

Well, the use of "mom" is defensible, at least, for the reasons I gave. That is, it is actually more traditional in Ireland than "mam".

Moving on to your other points: whether you like it or not the country is moving in this direction, I'm afraid. However, I would say it is due to the massive media influence of the U.S. rather than some sort of inferiority complex. If it's a matter of there being a nationwide inferiority complex then one could say we must have an inferiority complex for speaking English rather than our "traditional" language?

Languages change and evolve and dialects can and do die out; it's nothing new. For example, a couple of hundred years ago the majority of accents in England were rhotic and non-rhoticity was considered to be a working class "affliction", yet now most of the accents are non-rhotic including Received Pronunciation. This idea would have horrified the upper classes 250 years ago, no doubt.

The point is, whether you want it or not the English language is going to change, and due to the overwhelming media influence of America I don't think it will be long before Hiberno-English is entirely eclipsed. Whether or not this is lamentable is debatable, but I believe it's unavoidable. Regardless, "mom" isn't a fair example.

Boulevardier

Then why, Raic, are the English, which also gets this massive US media influence, not also developing mid-Atlantic accents and pronounciations?

Yes they do let in some Americanisms (and have done for a century) but they are a long way from talking like Yanks. I'm not sure that is true of us.

Could it be, at least in part, because a century of Gaelicist propaganda has stripped us of what should be a deserved and legitimate pride in our Hiberno-English?

Raic

Boulevardier wrote: »

Then why, Raic, are the English, which also gets this massive US media influence, not also developing mid-Atlantic accents and pronounciations?

Yes they do let in some Americanisms (and have done for a century) but they are a long way from talking like Yanks. I'm not sure that is true of us.

Could it be, at least in part, because a century of Gaelicist propaganda has stripped us of what should be a deserved and legitimate pride in our Hiberno-English?

They have a powerful extensive media of their own.

deirdremf

Boulevardier wrote: »

I do not agree. I started the thread because I was hearing so much (especially on the radio) use of American-style "mom" replacing "mam" or "mum" or "ma" which are the accepted Hiberno-english words.

We are developing a hideous mid-atlantic way of speaking which suggests to me a national inferiority complex. Another example is the use of "man" in expressions such as "Man, I'm tired" where we would previously have said "God, I'm tired" or "jayzus I'm tired." It is not a religious thing. It is pure Americanisation.

Well, if you went back a generation or so before the midatlantic thing kicked off, there was a whole class of people who aped the Anglo-Irish, who aped the English accents. Garret Fitzgerald was one of that class, but there were plenty more like him. If you listen to recordings of the more "cultured" politicians since independence, you will find a whole range of accents coming into fashion and then disappearing again. There's probably material for a doctorate there somewhere!
Be that as it may, those at the top of Irish society always seem to ape somebody else, at the moment it's the yanks.
When our next overlords come from a non-English-speaking society, it will be interesting to see how this plays out: will the cream of our society force another language change on us?

Raic wrote: »

Well, the use of "mom" is defensible, at least, for the reasons I gave. That is, it is actually more traditional in Ireland than "mam".
Regardless, "mom" isn't a fair example.

Do you have any evidence that "mom" was used here in the past?
This is the first time that I've heard anyone make your point.
Or do you feel that it is is some way a better transliteration of "maime" that "mam" is?

Boulevardier wrote: »

Could it be, at least in part, because a century of Gaelicist propaganda has stripped us of what should be a deserved and legitimate pride in our Hiberno-English?

Why should we have pride in hibernoenglish?
It's no more than English badly learnt and poorly assimilated by our ancestors.
Lady Gregory, Synge and other writers of the ascendancy put it the mouths of the poor and ignorant that they tried to turn into "noble savages", but it was never more than a waystation en route to something else.
Face up to it, varieties of English as spoken in Ireland are low prestige versions; German friends of mine who studied English at university told me that they were expected to learn to speak with a good accent, and stated that only two were suggested: RP and Edinburgh.
That may have been their university only, but I'd say it's symptomatic of something wider.

Howard Juneau

I have never heard anyone say mum. It's an almost exclusive word our neighbors use.
Mom is the normal usage here, esp when a child is complaining

Raic

deirdremf wrote: »

Do you have any evidence that "mom" was used here in the past?
This is the first time that I've heard anyone make your point.
Or do you feel that it is is some way a better transliteration of "maime" that "mam" is?

Yup, I said it earlier in the thread. It's how you would write the Irish word "mam" phonetically in English orthography. So if you have people in Gaeltacht regions talking about their "mam" (in Irish), if English gains a foothold in that area you can have them talking about their "mom" without it being an American influence. Now, just to clarify my position, I freely admit that much usage of the word "mom" in areas such as South Dublin is probably down to Americanisation.

deirdremf wrote: »

It's no more than English badly learnt and poorly assimilated by our ancestors.

I think that's an unfair statement to make about Hiberno-English; you could make a similar statement about modern British English considering that it's nothing like Old English. Many, if not most of the changes (depending on definition) were the result of "mistakes" in usage.

Boulevardier wrote: »

I started the thread because I was hearing so much (especially on the radio) use of American-style "mom" replacing "mam" or "mum" or "ma" which are the accepted Hiberno-english words.

The argument you are making could also be made against "mum" for being a British influence. At the end of the day, though, the short words for mother originally come from baby noises, so it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

deirdremf

Raic wrote: »

I think that's an unfair statement to make about Hiberno-English; you could make a similar statement about modern British English considering that it's nothing like Old English. Many, if not most of the changes (depending on definition) were the result of "mistakes" in usage.

I couldn't disagree more.
Hiberno-English is something developed by people who normally spoke a different language: Irish. Those who ran/run the society where these dialects were/are used did not and do not speak it; and have never aspired to speak it. Those who grow up speaking it, over the course of several generations, have left it behind them as they and their families receive better education in a higher status dialect. With each passing generation, we move further and further away from Hiberno-English, and move closer to one of the standards. This used to mean RP (Garret Fitz) but now also means Middle class East coast US - often as portrayed by Hollywood.
We do not move the full distance - we are probably always aping an accent and a way of speech that was in vogue one or two generations previously, although the time lag is likely to be getting shorter. And given that we now have two major dialects/accents coming into our homes via TV etc, we are also getting mixed messages, with the result that we don't get things quite right.

Of course poorer sectors of society seem to be less influenced that those at the top - I'd say though that this is just a perception, it is more likely that their models are more the Irish middle and upper-middle classes (also at a remove of one or more generations).

I'd posit that a reason for this (and please excuse the cliched use of suburb names) could be that a young person from Blackrock or Foxrock might see themselves as being part of the International elite, maybe working in the finance sector in London or (less likely maybe) NY, while their ambitious counterparts from Ronanstown or Gurrane or Ballymurphy might aspire to getting a technical job in a multinational, with a job as a secondary teacher being as high as the best could aspire to.

Precious flower

I can attest to the use of Mom in the West of Ireland. My father is from Rosmuc and he would always use Mom or when he is speaking about his mother or when he's asking me where mum has gone 'Where's mommy gone?' also my younger cousins in Rosmuc say it too. Makes sense since it sounds like mom in Irish. Even the Irish for grandmother in Rosmuc Mamo (think that's how (Momo) sounds like it. I though call my mum 'mummy' and dad 'daddy' which for a 20 year old to call their parents that might be weird to some people it sounds perfectly normal when I say it maybe because being born in England that's what people called their parents though I was only there until I was five. I remember as I got older I tried to sound 'more Irish' and say mam but it just sounds wrong to me. kind of say mummy on an slight English accent too! :P

Carawaystick

When I was growing up, only english children called their mothers mum or mummy.

In Wickla, we had Ma's Mam's and Mammies.

I worked with a lad from Connemara who called his mother mom ( which as has been pointed out, is how the word mam is pronounced as gaeilge)

Mum or Mummy is the single most annoying language import to Ireland for me.

But it's a bit Canute-like at this stage to try stop it.

Boulevardier

Yes, but at least in Ireland we tend to pronounce mum as "moom."

I honestly never, never, heard any Irish person use "mom" until about 5 years ago, in any part of the island.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Why does it matter to you? Apparently, having moved to Ireland from Botswana, I used to say "mom" and ended up being bullied over it. I still don't understand why the pronunciation was such a big deal to them and now apparently even the "grown ups" have a problem with it.

I was never allowed call my mum "ma" or "mammy" and everyone else said mum so it was always that for me (or mom apparently).

Samaris

When I was in school, the children with English parent/s (myself included) used Mum and Dad, the ones with Irish parents used Mammy or Mam and Dad/dy. In my part of the country, Ma and Da were reasonably unusual to my memory (Waterford county, not city). The only people I remember using it offhand was some that had moved down from Dublin.

Don't recall anyone using Mom at all, and it's still not something I'd hear ..hm, at all in my age-group at least.

Although my partner from the south-west of Ireland uses Mom and it seems to be pretty usual there.

Type 17

Whatever about the origins of Mom, Mam, Mum, etc, two horrible (IMO) Americanisms that I have noticed creeping into Hiberno (and Anglo) English are:

I had just gotten home...

He was outside of the house when we got there.

ezra_pound

Boulevardier wrote: »

"To be perfectly honest if more people knew this there wouldn't be so much complaining and this thread wouldn't have happened. "

I do not agree. I started the thread because I was hearing so much (especially on the radio) use of American-style "mom" replacing "mam" or "mum" or "ma" which are the accepted Hiberno-english words.

We are developing a hideous mid-atlantic way of speaking which suggests to me a national inferiority complex. Another example is the use of "man" in expressions such as "Man, I'm tired" where we would previously have said "God, I'm tired" or "jayzus I'm tired." It is not a religious thing. It is pure Americanisation.

You're totally wrong. My mother was born in the 1940s west clare and she always called her parents mom and dad.

screamer

I prefer mom to ma (like a sheep).
TBH the only way I object to a child referring to their mother is by calling her by her first name. Now that is awful.

Boulevardier

I am amazed that "mom" was used in 1940's Clare. My dad grew up there and then, and I never heard him use it, though admittedly his mother died when he was young.

Rabo Karabekian

I've heard that 'mom' is very much a 'direct from Irish' thing, especially in gaeilgoir regions (and boy do they go on and on about it - interestingly, while the ire of those I have spoken to about this is reserved for people who say 'mum', 'mam' is fine, despite being very common in the north of England) but I'm curious as to how it gets 'directly' translated.

Specifically, is the Irish not normally preceded by an a, do, mo, etc? So the pronunciation would nearly always be 'wom-ee'? Is it not strange that the direct translation ignores the w sound?

hullaballoo

You wouldn't say, "my mum (heh), come here", it's "mum, come here" and the same goes for Irish: "Mamaí/Mam, gabh i leith.

Bosco13

Just moved here from the north a few months ago and my cousin talks like an American.
She calls petrol gas and trousers pants.
Does everybody down here do this?

Laphroaig52

Boulevardier wrote: »

I am not at all pleased by the recent upsurge

Even if it has caught on among the populace, it does not follow that the media (such as RTE) should amplify or legitimise its use.

Why not?
It's not the role of the media to dictate or even endorse any vernacular.
Rather, it should reflect every day speech and dialect.....

I don't like 'Mom' any more than you do but if that's what the cool kids are saying, so be it.

Languages evolve and they way we speak is influenced by external sources. Given their exposure to American TV, it would be strange if younger people didn't pick up some of it.

All that being said, didn't the American singer Al Jolson sing about his 'Mammy'?
I heard she's making a come back.

Thephantomsmask

It's mostly mom in Kerry, I'm in my thirties and we all said it long before the influx of American TV shows. My mother, aunts and uncles always called my grandmother mom even in the early Eighties. As others have said, in Munster Irish, moh-mie is the pronunciation. It was anglicised to mom.

Rabo Karabekian

hullaballoo wrote: »

You wouldn't say, "my mum (heh), come here", it's "mum, come here" and the same goes for Irish: "Mamaí/Mam, gabh i leith.

Ah, okay (my Irish isn't the best). I always thought, if you were addressing somebody, you would say 'a Phadraig' or 'a Mhamaí'. Would that be wrong? Or old-fashioned?

hullaballoo

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

Ah, okay (my Irish isn't the best). I always thought, if you were addressing somebody, you would say 'a Phadraig' or 'a Mhamaí'. Would that be wrong? Or old-fashioned?

Very formal. You'd put that in a letter but you'd never speak it.

riffmongous

hullaballoo wrote: »

Very formal. You'd put that in a letter but you'd never speak it.

That's how it always sounded like to me in Ros na Run (or maybe some other tv show but I saw ros na run the most), 'ach, a mham' or a dhaid (not sure about the i in there). I found a video of a ros na run scene with Maire and Paedar where they constantly use it (vocative) while talking to each other, I can find it again if needed

Rabo Karabekian

riffmongous wrote: »

That's how it always sounded like to me in Ros na Run (or maybe some other tv show but I saw ros na run the most), 'ach, a mham' or a dhaid (not sure about the i in there). I found a video of a ros na run scene with Maire and Paedar where they constantly use it (vocative) while talking to each other, I can find it again if needed

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought. When I took an Irish class (a while ago now, so maybe things have changed) I am nearly sure that I was always referred to as (for example) 'A Phadraig', but maybe (as a previous poster said) that's formal (which would possibly make sense in a classroom setting - although it was a very, very relaxed class).

riffmongous

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought. When I took an Irish class (a while ago now, so maybe things have changed) I am nearly sure that I was always referred to as (for example) 'A Phadraig', but maybe (as a previous poster said) that's formal (which would possibly make sense in a classroom setting - although it was a very, very relaxed class).

Do you know what dialect of Irish it was you were taught? Could be related to that? I know the vocative case is common in other languages, like slavic ones, but maybe it's dropping out of use in Irish due to english influence.

Rabo Karabekian

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you know what dialect of Irish it was you were taught? Could be related to that? I know the vocative case is common in other languages, like slavic ones, but maybe it's dropping out of use in Irish due to english influence.

I don't really remember, I last did Irish properly in school, is there a 'standard' dialect that they use?

The thing is, in any of the books that I used after school (and just looking at an up-to-date one right now) and on 'aspirations and eclipses' it says:
"in the vocative case - both singular and plural, eg:
A Sheáin, tar anseo!"

But as you say, maybe that's more formal (like a previous poster suggested) and in actual Irish speak, it's being dropped because of English. Which is ironic in the context of this thread, as that's what a lot of people's ire is directed when people use terms like 'mum'.

KaiLee

I know this is an old post I just came upon it but MOM is as Irish as it gets as an native Irish speaker I say Mom as do my children because in Irish the word is Mamaí pronounced MOM-EE . Leave history in the past and get with the lingo without hatred.
on depending on what side of the country you come from some use Ma and Mam etc... Dialects, there are many and accents. All us Irish don't sound the same so don't rush to such a harsh conclusion as banning words and bringing up British rule in the mix.

Creol1

I don't mind the word itself or regard it as intrinsically American; what bugs me is the spelling; on this side of the Atlantic it's "Mum", and that's how I've always spelt it.

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

I don't really remember, I last did Irish properly in school, is there a 'standard' dialect that they use?

I know this was posted almost two years ago so I'm guessing Rabo Karabekian isn't sitting on the edge of his seat waiting for an answer, but the Munster dialect is the nearest there is to a standard dialect and is the dialect used in textbooks.

Chancer3001

Lots of people in Galway say mom and have done for decades