Plumbing problem

doniebrien

Hi all,
Can anyone shed some light on the plumbing problem i have. I have recently moved into a new build. I have a plumbing system which involves a 3 coil cylinder,oil,solar and solid fuel. The problem i have is with the solid fuel. The way it is suposed to operate is i have 4 1" pipes coming from the back of a stanley reginald stove. 2 of them goes to the system link and the other 2 goes to the 300ltr stainless steel cylinder. When i light a fire the pipes going to the cylinder should naturally heat through convection thus heating the water. A pipe stat at the cylinder should then activate at a set tempeture(45/50 degrees) operating the pump on the other circuit from the stove and then circulating hot water to the rads.

Here is my problem, the water at the stove starts to boil and the flow/return at the cylinder remain cold. when it boils for approx 1 min it then surges through the coil red hot water, activates the pipe stat and the solid fuel pump comes on and remains on for some time as the stat gets so hot from the surge. the pump goes off eventually and the prosess repeats.

Troubleshooting the problem with the plumber who has 35 years experiance we have swapped coils to determine if there was a restriction in it, no luck.
Checked the pipework from the stove to cylinder(30 feet distance) for continues rise, checked for airlocks, changed the cylinder(same make replacment) changed the plumbing and used only 2 pipes from stove and used injector T and all no joy.

The only way we can get the water to naturally convect is when created a coil using 1" copper and some 90 degree bends outside the cylinder thus bypassing the coil in cylinder and away it works. the make shift coil heats at the same rate as where if leaves the stove.

The only conclusion we can come to is that there is too much coil in the cylinder(gussing over 60 feet which is causing the restriction)

Has anybody come across this problem before, any thoughts would be appreciated.

310

hi what size connection on clyinder are they inch or 3/4 is coil copper or stainless

Dtp79

The pipe stat should be as close to the cyclinder as possible. Is it on the flow pipe?

demanufactured

The pipe stat should actually be on the flow as near to the stove as possible.

Dtp79

demanufactured wrote: »

The pipe stat should actually be on the flow as near to the stove as possible.

Jesus what a cock up on my behalf. You're totally right. I read your message and I thought " why did he repeat what I said " ...... Till I read back over my message!

corkgsxr

demanufactured wrote: »

The pipe stat should actually be on the flow as near to the stove as possible.

Yep. But the fact that it wont convect is still a problem. Does the pipes go into the hotpress then drop down to go into the hot cylinder

oikster

Are the coils in your cylinder suitable for gravity use..........because not all are. What make is your cylinder?

shane0007

I would be looking at the gravity coil of the cylinder. It may look like a gravity coil but some are not. Some are even reversed. It works when the coil is eliminated so you have removed the problem. The problem therefore has to be the coil!

What make & model cylinder is it?

corkgsxr

If he drops into the cylinder he could be breaking the gravity

Outkast_IRE

Could you do a little sketch of whats actually happening with the pipes from stove to cylinder ideally it should really be convecting anyway .

TPM

If you could post some photos of the pipes at the back of the stove and of the cylinder it would help diagnose any issues. a picture says 100 words and all that

jd80

Do you know the cylinder manufacturer?

May be possible to download a data sheet and/or drawing to see/specify if suitable for gravity systems

TPM

As said by a few people you need to check that the cylinder has a proper gravity coil.
The problem is that when the pipework is connected to the cylinder the total resistance of the coil and pipework is greater than the thermosyphon can overcome, hopefully this is due to the coil in the cylinder not being a gravity coil. But there is a chance that due to the length of the pipe and how it is ran including bends and fittings is resulting in too much resistance even for a gravity coil.

Is there anywhere you could access the pipework nearer the stove and fit a heat leak radiator to try and encourage the thermosyphon to start off

doniebrien

310 wrote: »

hi what size connection on clyinder are they inch or 3/4 is coil copper or stainless

The tapping to the coil is 3/4 stainless and the plumber tapped down from inch copper

doniebrien

Dtp79 wrote: »

The pipe stat should be as close to the cyclinder as possible. Is it on the flow pipe?

Yes the pipe stat is located about 3 feet from the cylinder on the flow pipe

shane0007

3/4 coil is not a gravity coil!
Cylinder stat is too far from the stove!

Post details of the cylinder, i.e. make & model

shane0007

I guess his 35 years of experience let him down on this one.....

doniebrien

oikster wrote: »

Are the coils in your cylinder suitable for gravity use..........because not all are. What make is your cylinder?

The make of the cylinder is Kingspan Range Tribune HE, was unaware that a gravity coil would have to be specified. We even took out the immersion and had a look in at one stage and noticed there is a lot of coils, no difference in amount of coils between solid fuel and other primary coil which is the oil. No prob there though as it is a pumped circuit. Thanks for reply

Dtp79

doniebrien wrote: »

Yes the pipe stat is located about 3 feet from the cylinder on the flow pipe

My post there was a mistake. Swap cyclinder with the word stove on my post

shane0007

Are you sure it is a Tribune as they are only unvented and max 2 coil? Are you sure you have a triple coil cylinder? Also the Tribune cylinder are definitely not gravity.
Are the flow & return entering & exiting at the same height as each other on the cylinder?

doniebrien

TPM wrote: »

As said by a few people you need to check that the cylinder has a proper gravity coil.
The problem is that when the pipework is connected to the cylinder the total resistance of the coil and pipework is greater than the thermosyphon can overcome, hopefully this is due to the coil in the cylinder not being a gravity coil. But there is a chance that due to the length of the pipe and how it is ran including bends and fittings is resulting in too much resistance even for a gravity coil.

Is there anywhere you could access the pipework nearer the stove and fit a heat leak radiator to try and encourage the thermosyphon to start off

Thanks for reply. The pipes come from the back of the stove, up the wall(4ft)across the ceiling(10ft) at a grad rise then straight to the cylinder(5ft) approx measurements. Not many bends

oikster

I'd say what you have is a twin coil solar cylinder. Is your house a bungalow or two storey.

shane0007

oikster wrote: »

I'd say what you have is a twin coil solar cylinder. Is your house a bungalow or two storey.

I reckon that also. Do you have solar installed?

doniebrien

shane0007 wrote: »

Are you sure it is a Tribune as they are only unvented and max 2 coil? Are you sure you have a triple coil cylinder? Also the Tribune cylinder are definitely not gravity.
Are the flow & return entering & exiting at the same height as each other on the cylinder?

Thanks shane. Possitive it's 3 coil as I have 3 systems. Oil, solid fuel and solar. The first cylinder was def a 3 coil Tribune and the new one is a TR 300c. Flow enters on top and exits on bottom directly in line with each other 30 inches apart. The opposite coil is slightly offset as the coils are inter woven all the way down the inside of the cylinder

doniebrien

oikster wrote: »

I'd say what you have is a twin coil solar cylinder. Is your house a bungalow or two storey.

Sorry not too familiar with terms. I was counting the solar as a coil. So i have solar and 2 separate coils for oil and stove It's a two story. Cylinder upstairs

shane0007

doniebrien wrote: »

Thanks shane. Possitive it's 3 coil as I have 3 systems. Oil, solid fuel and solar. The first cylinder was def a 3 coil Tribune and the new one is a TR 300c. Flow enters on top and exits on bottom directly in line with each other 30 inches apart. The opposite coil is slightly offset as the coils are inter woven all the way down the inside of the cylinder

Hang on, back up, back up! Where did that come from? Cylinder change? TR 300C? Can you post the correct information please? Details of the exact cylinder that is actually installed now.

oikster

doniebrien wrote: »

Sorry not too familiar with terms. I was counting the solar as a coil. So i have solar and 2 separate coils for oil and stove It's a two story. Cylinder upstairs

Exactly, solar coil is always called solar as it is never a gravity coil. Have you already changed the cylinder and if so what size are the coil connections.........gravity ones I hope.

doniebrien

oikster wrote: »

Exactly, solar coil is always called solar as it is never a gravity coil. Have you already changed the cylinder and if so what size are the coil connections.........gravity ones I hope.

When the kingspan Range cylinder gave trouble at first we tried everything so the we thought the cylinder was faulty like got a fall and the coils had dropped inside which caused a restriction. So supplier agreed to replace like for like. Slight vary in model number of new cylinder but very same. Same problem occurred. . So basically our conclusion is that the coils in these cylinders are not designed for gravity? If not what company does one with same capacity etc. thanks again.

TPM

doniebrien wrote: »

Thanks for reply. The pipes come from the back of the stove, up the wall(4ft)across the ceiling(10ft) at a grad rise then straight to the cylinder(5ft) approx measurements. Not many bends

That pipe run should be ok.

doniebrien wrote: »

The tapping to the coil is 3/4 stainless and the plumber tapped down from inch copper

Regardless of the make or model of the cylinder, if the coil only has 3/4" connections it is not a gravity coil, this would explain why it isnt working through the coil but it is working when you link up the flow and return with 1" pipe and fittings.

doniebrien

shane0007 wrote: »

Hang on, back up, back up! Where did that come from? Cylinder change? TR 300C? Can you post the correct information please? Details of the exact cylinder that is actually installed now.

As I said in the original post we changed the cylinder. The latter mentioned (TR300c) is now installed. Very same as original just different code on tank

shane0007

doniebrien wrote: »

As I said in the original post we changed the cylinder. The latter mentioned (TR300c) is now installed. Very same as original just different code on tank

Apologies, didn't register that part.
Why was the cylinder changed?
I can't find any information on that model. The Tribune are all unvented and do not have gravity coils. Perhaps that model number is.
To me, the issue is the cylinder coil & the location of the stat, but more so the coil. 3/4" coil is 100% not a gravity coil, so something is amiss.
Ring Tribune and ask their technical department.

oikster

doniebrien wrote: »

When the kingspan Range cylinder gave trouble at first we tried everything so the we thought the cylinder was faulty like got a fall and the coils had dropped inside which caused a restriction. So supplier agreed to replace like for like. Slight vary in model number of new cylinder but very same. Same problem occurred. . So basically our conclusion is that the coils in these cylinders are not designed for gravity? If not what company does one with same capacity etc. thanks again.

Don't know if I can name companies on here but anyway I am not in your part of the country. But you may need to specify gravity coils 28mm if you are going to use stainless. Far cry nowadays from the tiny range of cylinders ,all copper and unlagged that used to be available.

doniebrien

shane0007 wrote: »

Apologies, didn't register that part.
Why was the cylinder changed?
I can't find any information on that model. The Tribune are all unvented and do not have gravity coils. Perhaps that model number is.
To me, the issue is the cylinder coil & the location of the stat, but more so the coil. 3/4" coil is 100% not a gravity coil, so something is amiss.
Ring Tribune and ask their technical department.

Thanks again. I have a rep from company calling to have a look next week so will have to hold on until then.

shane0007

doniebrien wrote: »

If not what company does one with same capacity etc. thanks again.

Joule. Based in Dublin. You can buy through any Heatmerchants, Chadwicks or DPL. Excellent cylinder.

TPM

shane0007 wrote: »

Joule. Based in Dublin. You can buy through any Heatmerchants, Chadwicks or DPL. Excellent cylinder.

Their open vent Stainless cylinders are nice, and not bad price either.

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

Joule. Based in Dublin. You can buy through any Heatmerchants, Chadwicks or DPL. Excellent cylinder.

Have to disagree there Shane

TPM

what dont you like about them Dtp?

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

Have to disagree there Shane

And?.....

doniebrien

TPM wrote: »

Their open vent Stainless cylinders are nice, and not bad price either.

Quote: shane0007, so their open vent cylinders are designed for gravity systems? Is the only way to know if a cylinder is designed for such a system is that the coil tappings are 1"

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

And?.....

Bed time now! There a nice cyclinder. Out of the last 4 I fitted 2 have leaked

shane0007

doniebrien wrote: »

Quote: shane0007, so their open vent cylinders are designed for gravity systems? Is the only way to know if a cylinder is designed for such a system is that the coil tappings are 1"

All gravity cylinders are designed for vented systems because you cannot put solid fuel into an unvented hot water system. All gravity circuit coils must be minimum 1" entering the cylinder at high level and exiting at low level. The size of the coil is measured in surface area m2 (as if it were cut open and flattened) and is sized in relation to the maximum output of the boiler it is serving. Smooth and not ribbed/corrugated coils are acceptable for solid fuel. Corrugated/ribbed can cause turbulence within the coil and restrict the gravity flow.

Never go by the size of the cylinder tappings. Always go by the coil size. A well known manufacturer here in Ireland was doing just that, 1" tapping but only a 3/4" coil. Very naughty.

TPM

doniebrien wrote: »

Quote: shane0007, so their open vent cylinders are designed for gravity systems? Is the only way to know if a cylinder is designed for such a system is that the coil tappings are 1"

A gravity coil has to be 1" no exceptions, but you could have a 1" coil that is not a gravity coil.
When you are getting a cylinder you need to specify that you need a coil suitable for a solid fuel gravity circuit. The cylinder data sheet should give details aswell. and if it doesnt specify that its a gravity coil you have to assume that it isnt

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

Bed time now! There a nice cyclinder. Out of the last 4 I fitted 2 have leaked

On a well or mains? If mains, they have a 25 year warranty.

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

On a well or mains? If mains, they have a 25 year warranty.

Mains. I'm talking about leaking the minute I put them in. Pinhole

doniebrien

oikster wrote: »

Are the coils in your cylinder suitable for gravity use..........because not all are. What make is your cylinder?

Thanks oisker, at the time I purchesed my cylinder I didn't know that I needed to specify I needed a coil for gravity, I hope to get it sorted next week.

Dannymor

an ideal way to get gravity flow is to have the return come down from the cylinder, under ground back to stove, maybe the flow pipe is heating the return in the ceiling

QBE

Dtp79 wrote: »

Mains. I'm talking about leaking the minute I put them in. Pinhole

Dannymor wrote: »

an ideal way to get gravity flow is to have the return come down from the cylinder, under ground back to stove, maybe the flow pipe is heating the return in the ceiling

brilliant.......... non-sense in a random manner.

i think something needs to blocked and restrained and i do not mean that coil.

To heed bad advice is like eating poisoned candy.

QBE

oh by the way, you have a restriction or blockage or incorrect internal coil in the cylinder. stat should be on flow pipe at stove.

any bypass on the pipework?

Dtp79

QBE wrote: »

oh by the way, you have a restriction or blockage or incorrect internal coil in the cylinder. stat should be on flow pipe at stove.

any bypass on the pipework?

Here we go again. What's nonsense about my statement? There was a pinhole in the cylinder. It leaked immediately. It's happened twice on this make of cylinder