Golf manufacturers misleading the public

MisterAnarchy

This is a very interesting article on how Golf manufacturers have been deceiving the public for years .

http://www.golfwrx.com/76747/the-inside-scoop-on-taylormades-tour-heads/?utm_source=Newsletter+3%2F20&utm_campaign=9-4&utm_medium=email

Think the R1 driver you buy in the shop is the same as the pro's use ,think again ,it isnt even close.

There are three TaylorMade R1 drivers.
So how do golfers know which one of the TaylorMade R1 drivers is best for them?
Well, they don’t have to worry about it. That’s because when they go to buy an R1 driver off the shelf, they only have one option — the R1 Version 1.

So why does TaylorMade produce three different drivers when they only sell one of them to the public?

The R1 Version 2,the Pro's use is 440 cubic centimeters, 20 CCs smaller than the retail version. This gives the driver a different shape — it’s noticeably more compact in just about every respect when compared to the R1 Version 1.
The Pro/Tour head is 10 grams lighter than the target weight of a retail head.
The shaft is 0.5 inch shorter .

The retail version of the R1 driver is sold with two weights, a 10-gram and a 1-gram whereas the Tour driver .
But since the tour heads are 10 grams lighter, tour players have 10 more grams of tweaking power at their discretion, allowing them to create a slight draw bias, a slight fade bias or just about any other bias that they want.

Its nothing new that Taylor Made and indeed other manufacturers have been making Tour only equipment ,its been going on for years but at least they could be honest in their adverts because there’s plenty of golfers out there that think their R1 is the same driver being played by Dustin Johnson.

Topper Harley

For the vast majority of amateur golfers though, the retail version is designed for them and better suited to them, although some won't accept this.

The larger clubhead allows for a bigger sweet spot and therefore more forgiveness and the extra length of the shaft is supposed to create clubhead speed, although the manufacturers' opinions differ on how helpful this actually is. However, regardless of their opinions, they give in to demand and provide amateurs with the specs that will sell the most.

For those who just want to have the exact same driver as Dustin Johnson, TaylorMade are doing them a favour and the consumer usually won't know any better and will be all the better for it.

And then there are some golfers, usually mid-high handicappers who hit average drives of about 290-300 yards :rolleyes: and therefore would need to have the tour head if it was available, regardless of what anyone else told them. And they'd need that extra workability for that special draw shot they pull off once in a blue moon.

I'm with the manufacturers on this. If people really want to know, they'll dig as you have and find the truth, for whatever good that does them.

Ilik Urgee

I would've thought many amateurs would take it as a given the driver/wood/iron they have in their hand is only a distant cousin to what the pros use.
How and what shape or form they mightn't know(myself included), nor should or do they care imo.
See how Callaway came out with the RazerFit driver advertisement on Sky the week after Phil had been praising the ass off it at the Waste Management a couple of weeks back:rolleyes:

Topper Harley

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

I would've thought many amateurs would take it as a given the driver/wood/iron they have in their hand is only a distant cousin to what the pros use.
How and what shape or form they mightn't know(myself included), nor should or do they care imo.
See how Callaway came out with the RazerFit driver advertisement on Sky the week after Phil had been praising the ass off it at the Waste Management a couple of weeks back:rolleyes:

I vaguely remember something like that. I thought it was an ad when I heard it first but then I realised it was just an odd interview and then later when the ad came out I thought it was a repeat of the interview but it was an ad. Slippery rascals.

copacetic

Bombquadgolf, tour spec and wrx have been selling and posting about tour clubs for years. And manufacturers to all sell various 'tour' versions, and have done for years, some more tour than others.

I doubt anyone who thinks about it at all would assume that the clubs they buy are exact same as pros. The same way that football boots pros wear are different so is newly every piece of equipment any pro uses, whether tennis racquets, golf clubs whatever.

All custome fitted, different versions, adjusted, weighted etc etc etc.

There is no doubt that some low level pros on minor tours are using pretty much off the shelf gear also though.

Presumably most people what a club that works for them, not the one Rory is using that they won't be able to hit more than a 100 yards with a massive slice.

Senna

I always find the length difference to be the worst offence from manufactures. The tour driver are "always" 45/45.5 but the retail version is "always" 46, fooling Joe 18 handicapper by saying it longer, but sacrificing a huge amount of accuracy for a yard or two more.

MisterAnarchy

copacetic wrote: »

I doubt anyone who thinks about it at all would assume that the clubs they buy are exact same as pros. The same way that football boots pros wear are different so is newly every piece of equipment any pro uses, whether tennis racquets, golf clubs whatever.

All custome fitted, different versions, adjusted, weighted etc etc etc.

Well its a given that one would expect slight differences like lie angle ,loft ,weighting ,shaft ,etc but the differences between the R1 Retail and the R1 tour are huge.
Its a completely different club ,its 20cc smaller for one thing,a different shape ,and has completely different characteristics.

Everyone knows that Rory McIlroy is not using Nike clubs at the moment ,they are Titleist in all but name .

I always find the length difference to be the worst offence from manufactures. The tour driver are "always" 45/45.5 but the retail version is "always" 46, fooling Joe 18 handicapper by saying it longer, but sacrificing a huge amount of accuracy for a yard or two more.

Thats a major irritation of mine .
Most golfers would be better off with a 44 inch driver ,far more control .
I usually go down the shaft an inch or 2 for more control .
Cobra launched a driver last year called the Long Tom,its shaft length was 48 inches .:eek:
Needless to say it was a complete failure but I can still see people trying to wield this monstrosity thinking they will get extra distance .

Which leads me onto the increased distance claims .
Brand X 5 iron goes further than last years 5 iron ,but in fact its no longer a 5 iron as it has the loft of a 4 iron.
The RocketBlade 6 iron has a loft of 26.5 degrees – that would be a four and a half iron in old money!

neckedit

Everyone knows that Rory McIlroy is not using Nike clubs at the moment ,they are Titleist in all but name .

Really?? I didnt!!

EvanCornwallis

Not exactly breaking news.

Senecio

Next they'll tell me the Mini Cooper S I'm driving isn't the same as the one that's running in the WRC.

This is a non issue. Tour clubs are for tour players, retails clubs are for us hackers. If someone wants to get their hands on a tour club they can. It doesn't mean it will perform any better for them.

neckedit

EvanCornwallis wrote: »

Not exactly breaking news.

Im sorry....I was being sarcastic......
I think this is simply not true, Nike would not and could not be ok with paying a small fortune for this to be case.

Topper Harley

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Thats a major irritation of mine .
Most golfers would be better off with a 44 inch driver ,far more control .
I usually go down the shaft an inch or 2 for more control .
Cobra launched a driver last year called the Long Tom,its shaft length was 48 inches .:eek:
Needless to say it was a complete failure but I can still see people trying to wield this monstrosity thinking they will get extra distance .

Which leads me onto the increased distance claims .
Brand X 5 iron goes further than last years 5 iron ,but in fact its no longer a 5 iron as it has the loft of a 4 iron.
The RocketBlade 6 iron has a loft of 26.5 degrees – that would be a four and a half iron in old money!

The thing about extra long driver shafts is that the manufacturers are giving people what they want but read any article discussing it and you'll see that some manufacturers and all instructors, pros etc. recommend shorter shafts for more control and, most likely more distance for the average golfer as they'd actually hit the driver on the sweet spot more consistently.

Not only that but even if those longer shafted drivers are hit on the sweet spot the extra yardage would only be about five yards or so.

And with extra loft on the irons, again for those of us who care, the information is readily available. My new irons have the same loft as my old ones which were about 15 years old and I'm hitting them 1-1½ clubs longer, although I've also tried improving my swing which I think and hope is the major factor in this but I can't be sure the clubs have nothing to do with it. Either way, not a big deal really, as long as the scores come down.

charlieIRL

neckedit wrote: »

Im sorry....I was being sarcastic......
I think this is simply not true, Nike would not and could not be ok with paying a small fortune for this to be case.

I agree, and unless this can be backed up by cold hard facts I don't want to hear this mentioned again.

slave1

Thread title
Golf manufacturers misleading the public

I think this thread title is more misleading than the subject matter.
Did anyone honestly think that the golf club they are purchasing is identical to the top tour players, that the top tour players are not afforded more customisation and option versus us mere mortals?

BigChap1759

I think a lot of you guys are missing the point - I think this is most relevant to the current R1 advertising which strongly suggests, 1 R1 and many different ways to tweak it - any way you look at it this is misleading.

Personally I have no interest in making the game harder so I wouldn't want what the pros use...

the anser

slave1 wrote: »

Thread title
Golf manufacturers misleading the public

I think this thread title is more misleading than the subject matter.
Did anyone honestly think that the golf club they are purchasing is identical to the top tour players, that the top tour players are not afforded more customisation and option versus us mere mortals?

Hole in one!!!!!!!!!!

Creasy_bear

slave1 wrote: »

Thread title
Golf manufacturers misleading the public

I think this thread title is more misleading than the subject matter.
Did anyone honestly think that the golf club they are purchasing is identical to the top tour players, that the top tour players are not afforded more customisation and option versus us mere mortals?

Some people obviously do. A mate of my had the R11s tour version. It just looked more like the r11 (smaller head) if you know anyone at all in the business, they're easily got.

ImDave

neckedit wrote: »

Im sorry....I was being sarcastic......
I think this is simply not true, Nike would not and could not be ok with paying a small fortune for this to be case.

There is some truth in the general principle of this. When Tiger changed from Titleist blades to the Nike forged blades many years ago, I recall seeing pictures of the Nike blades and Tiger's former Titleist blades, and they were astheticaly identical aside from the branding. I recall mentioning this to a Nike tour rep and he said that they were pretty much a carbon copy with one or two slight tweeks in terms of groove design etc. Looking at the Nike blades Tiger was using when compared to the Nike blades available to consumers, they were very different clubs.

Johnny_Fontane

for me, the sneakiest thing they do is change the lofts.

so basically a 6 iron today has the same loft as a 5 iron five years ago.....consequently manufacturers tell people that their irons go further, when all they have done is change the lofts!

GreeBo

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

for me, the sneakiest thing they do is change the lofts.

so basically a 6 iron today has the same loft as a 5 iron five years ago.....consequently manufacturers tell people that their irons go further, when all they have done is change the lofts!

since I started stretching before golf my 6 iron goes further...I can now throw it over the back of the lake.


Honestly I dont see what the fuss is, we all know that irons have been getting stronger for years...who cares? soon we will just need Gap-Gap wedges.

As for misleading about what equipment they use on Tour versus us..I can honestly say I never thought about it once. I cant see how it makes a shred of difference either way.

neckedit

ImDave wrote: »

There is some truth in the general principle of this. When Tiger changed from Titleist blades to the Nike forged blades many years ago, I recall seeing pictures of the Nike blades and Tiger's former Titleist blades, and they were astheticaly identical aside from the branding. I recall mentioning this to a Nike tour rep and he said that they were pretty much a carbon copy with one or two slight tweeks in terms of groove design etc. Looking at the Nike blades Tiger was using when compared to the Nike blades available to consumers, they were very different clubs.

There is no truth in it at all, design of blades from company to company dont vary that much, its all asthetics when it comes to that kind of club. It the wee tweaks that make them differ. When Tiger played as an Am before signing for Titlest, he played Mizuno and the same roumours where around then that Mizuno made his clubs but stamped them Titleist. It was ridiculous then as it is now.

george67

In all probability their irons are made by a specialist company like muira or some other handmade club maker

stockdam

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Think the R1 driver you buy in the shop is the same as the pro's use ,think again ,it isnt even close.

Why on earth would I think that or why would the thought ever cross my mind? I have no desire to copy any pro or play with the same clubs.

I used to play with forged irons as I could move the ball either way as required; now I need help to keep the ball fly straight.

Who cares what the pros play as it's a completely different game.

Senna

Still think the thread brings up some good points, irregardless of what the pro's play, it's their endorsement and stats on who plays the R1 (etc) that sells clubs and of course everyone on this golf forum is far to savvy to fall for the PR bull that's associated with the professional players, but maybe some people do?

The thread title is very true, adding loft to clubs, adding length etc is all about getting gullible people to buy the latest released clubs because "in tests it goes 15 yards further", if manufactures wanted to provide the what the average player needed, then a PW would be 48 degrees (44' PW in JPX800 :rolleyes:) and a driver would be 44/45 inches long.

EvanCornwallis

neckedit wrote: »

Im sorry....I was being sarcastic......
I think this is simply not true, Nike would not and could not be ok with paying a small fortune for this to be case.

Wasn't responding to yourself.

Rippeditup

ImDave wrote: »

There is some truth in the general principle of this. When Tiger changed from Titleist blades to the Nike forged blades many years ago, I recall seeing pictures of the Nike blades and Tiger's former Titleist blades, and they were astheticaly identical aside from the branding. I recall mentioning this to a Nike tour rep and he said that they were pretty much a carbon copy with one or two slight tweeks in terms of groove design etc. Looking at the Nike blades Tiger was using when compared to the Nike blades available to consumers, they were very different clubs.

When Tiger moved to Nike they actually released sets to the public which where exact replicas of his clubs including setup as a promotion as I was working in McGuirks at the time and they where impossible to hit.
Just because a pro who nip it perfectly 95% of the time uses something doesn't mean it is better for the average Joe who needs forgiveness.

Pros playing a club is Marketing to build brand awareness and affinity so that they can build and sell clubs to the masses to make money as a company.. Simples

Arsenium

neckedit wrote: »

There is no truth in it at all, design of blades from company to company dont vary that much, its all asthetics when it comes to that kind of club. It the wee tweaks that make them differ. When Tiger played as an Am before signing for Titlest, he played Mizuno and the same roumours where around then that Mizuno made his clubs but stamped them Titleist. It was ridiculous then as it is now.

I had heard that previously but I thought the story was that he told Titleist to make him a replica of the Mizunos. That way Titleist made the clubs, he used them and everyone was happy?

I'd tend to agree with you though about it all being rubbish.

Arsenium

Rippeditup wrote: »

When Tiger moved to Nike they actually released sets to the public which where exact replicas of his clubs including setup as a promotion as I was working in McGuirks at the time and they where impossible to hit.
Just because a pro who nip it perfectly 95% of the time uses something doesn't mean it is better for the average Joe who needs forgiveness.

Pros playing a club is Marketing to build brand awareness and affinity so that they can build and sell clubs to the masses to make money as a company.. Simples

I'd love to have had a shot with those. Just for the laugh :-) I guess that would suggest that when Shane Lowrys clubs were stolen at the airport in Italy, the person who acquired them didnt really enjoy their next game of golf !!
In fact I think when that happened he was quoted as saying he hoped whatever, ahem, person stole them s*****d every shot for the rest of his life :-) Probably got his wish based on the above.

Topper Harley

Arsenium wrote: »

I'd love to have had a shot with those. Just for the laugh :-) I guess that would suggest that when Shane Lowrys clubs were stolen at the airport in Italy, the person who acquired them didnt really enjoy their next game of golf !!
In fact I think when that happened he was quoted as saying he hoped whatever, ahem, person stole them s*****d every shot for the rest of his life :-) Probably got his wish based on the above.

No, I've started striking them better during my last couple of rounds.

ImDave

neckedit wrote: »

There is no truth in it at all, design of blades from company to company dont vary that much, its all asthetics when it comes to that kind of club. It the wee tweaks that make them differ. When Tiger played as an Am before signing for Titlest, he played Mizuno and the same roumours where around then that Mizuno made his clubs but stamped them Titleist. It was ridiculous then as it is now.

I have to disagree. Why would someone like Tiger who enjoyed fantastic success with his Titleist blades turn his back on them for a set of Nike irons, which were completely unknown at that time. He would - if Nike could could build irons to the exact spec he wants, which is in all likelihood going to be very similar or the same as his Titleists. The Nike blades he used and (possibly the ones for sale but not sure on that) weren't even manufactured by Nike. They were forged by Miura. I also think there are significant differences between manufacturers when it comes to blades if you look closely.

If I worked in marketing for Nike, I wouldn't care less what irons he used, as long as they had a Nike swoosh on them. It makes no difference to their bottom line as long as the general public don't know the difference, which they don't.

As I was saying, I also heard this from a Nike Tour Rep who had actually had a set of Tigers irons in his hands at one time.

gorfield

Right, as someone who is lucky enough to have used both retail clubs and tour issued clubs I can give my opinions on what I've experienced.

The differences are monumental IMHO.

I won't name the brand but il give examples,

Driver- Tour issue was smaller more compact head, deeper face, lower spin and much more solid sound than tinny retail head. Also came with sticker giving true loft and weight.

Shafts- All tour issue shafts pass strict quality control for weight, pureness and exact rounding.

Irons- Different forging process away from mass production, softer feel and laser cut grooves on the limit of legal to help stop flyers.

Wedges- Custom grind for bounce, laser cut grooves for maximum spin.

Ball- yep tour issue ball!!! Larger dimples harder core but soft cover, spring off driver like a bullet and soft cover makes grooves dig in for wedge spin.

None of this is possible at retail level.

Wether it's right or wrong I don't know, but the differences are vast

george67

Ball- yep tour issue ball!!! Larger dimples harder core but soft cover, spring off driver like a bullet and soft cover makes grooves dig in for wedge spin.

None of this is possible at retail level.

her it's right or wrong I don't know, but the differences are vast[/Quote]


One of my club mates was given a ball by Monty after the Irish open and eventually he decided to hit it.Stood up on the first and boom he said that it came off the face like no other ball he had ever hit. Now this lad plays off 3 so he's been around the block a bit . (so we can't say that he only plays well with Monty's balls anymore

Dr_Colossus

Interesting stuff. So when manufactures produce tour issue equipment and balls (never knew there were tour issue balls) why don't they offer the products to the public at an increased cost to offset the more stringent tolerances? Given the cost of the likes of Titleist ProV1 balls as is what would be the likely cost of the tour issue equivalent? Would the costs be so exorbitant to make sale of anything unlikely? Different for the pros who receive product endorsements.
Regardless of what the cost I'm sure there would be demand for tour issue equipment and certain golfers could benefit from it and at least should be given the option if looking for custom orders etc.