Cyprus reject bailout.

Torakx

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/mar/19/eurozone-crisis-cyprus-bailout-government-vote

Heres a quote from the former Cyrpus central bank governor.

"We are witnessing historic times. What we are witnessing is the slow death of the European Project. We are in a situation that some European governments are essentially taking actions that are telling citizens of other member states that they are not equal under the law."
"What we have seen in the last few days is a very serious blunder by European governments that are essentially blackmailing the government of Cyprus to confiscate the money that belongs rightfully to depositors in the banking sector in Cyprus. It is not clear how this can affect in a positive matter the European project going forward."

And from what i gather is the latest report.

A snatch:

The Cypriot parliament has thrown out a controversial plan to skim €5.8bn from savers' bank accounts, in a move that risks plunging the eurozone into a fresh crisis and heightens expectations that the cash-strapped nation will seek a funding lifeline from Russia.
Cyprus has just 24 hours to find a solution to its funding gap before its banks are due to reopen following the dramatic no vote on Tuesday night, which failed to support a hastily renegotiated change to the original deal.

Just to recap:

The 56-member Cypriot parliament rejected the bank tax by 36 votes with 19 abstentions (one MP was absent) even after the proposal had been tweaked during the day to remove any levy on savings below €20,000.
Accounts holding €20,000 to €100,000 still faced a 6.75% levy, and any account with more than €100,000 a tax of 9.9%, despite calls by Cyprus's eurozone partners not to tax accounts below €100,000 – the level at which a European Union-wide guarantee kicks in if an EU bank goes bust.

Finally a country that is rejecting the EU bailouts!Or more lke robbery in this case.
It appears to me the banks need money for loans on debt that was not backed.
And now that they need more money to keep the snowball effect going, they want to take it from peoples bank accounts.

But for the Cypriots, going up against the Elites front men, might be a bad move if they cant get support from Russia.
I think they should make their own currency.
The only issue with that, is too many other surrounding countries are reliant on debt for exchange and loans of debt, that it is probably not a realistic option anymore.

It might be interesting to find out if anyone has published the Bilderberg talk topics over the last 5 years.
In the past I have managed to link some interesting stuff they planned over a 5 year period.
I think at the time was to do with spain or portugal bilderberg meeting and a bank head negotiating or speaking there.
Its buried in this forums somewhere...

Id like to hear everyones version of these events.Ive only heard about it a few minutes ago from a friend and havent been reading about it that long.

namloc1980

It's worth noting that the idea to lay a tax on deposits actually came from the Cypriot Finance Ministry to a large degree. Like all the other bailout programmes in Europe, the bailed out state contributes some money itself. In Ireland the National Pension Reserve Fund was raided. The Cypriots were told the same by the EU/ECB i.e. you need a bailout of €16bn, we'll give you €10bn so come up with €6bn yourselves and hence the idea to raid depositors to raise the €6bn.

Now I do think the Cypriots were forced (even blackmailed?) into this position with threats that the ECB would withdraw funding from their banking system which would then collapse if they didn't go ahead with the levy. Now I suppose we'll see if that will actually happen. Of course if it does happen and the banks collapse the depositors will lose not 10% but 100% of their savings. Either way the sh!t is about to hit the fan!

zom

They can do the way Iceland did. The easiest way for people of the nation, the worst for bankers.

namloc1980

zom wrote: »

They can do the way Iceland did. The easiest way for people of the nation, the worst for bankers.

The only slight problem there is that Cyprus is in the Euro and therefore has no control over it's currency.

zom

They had their pound few years ago, can come back to it. I would rather worry about Turkey - they definitely would like to get some profits from that crisis.

namloc1980

zom wrote: »

They had their pound few years ago, can come back to it. I would rather worry about Turkey - they definitely would like to get some profits from that crisis.

Well if the Cypriots were pissed off about a levy on their Euro deposits they would be very VERY pissed off when their deposits would be worthless if converted to Cypriot Pounds.

Torakx

I have a feeling the ECb wont let them fall.They will lose that custom.
Better to bail them out and add to the debt to keep the system running,than lose another country for debt creation and risk a snowball effect.
To be honest I cant really remember much about the whole Iceland issue.
But it might be something to compare in some respects.

Duiske

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's worth noting that the idea to lay a tax on deposits actually came from the Cypriot Finance Ministry to a large degree. Like all the other bailout programmes in Europe, the bailed out state contributes some money itself. In Ireland the National Pension Reserve Fund was raided. The Cypriots were told the same by the EU/ECB i.e. you need a bailout of €16bn, we'll give you €10bn so come up with €6bn yourselves and hence the idea to raid depositors to raise the €6bn.

I've read a lot of the stuff written about the greedy IMF/ECB/ect,etc, the last couple of days, and much as I'd love to have a pop at them myself they are not guilty this time. What happened is essentially as namloc says above. And furthermore, the numbnuts in the Cypriot Government who came up with this cunning plan to raid their citizens bank accounts turned chicken this afternoon, voted against it, and are now running around Nicosia blaming Germany for the whole thing. lol, gotta love politicians.

Myrddin

The minute those banks reopen there's gonna be a massive rush on them, & who could blame people/investors? Confidence however bad it was, has now been completely ruined & if I lived there and had savings, I'd be taking steps to protect them.

The EU in my completely uneducated opinion, is starting to look more & more like a failed experiment. Its burning down around itself, & if a country has to effectively steal 10% of peoples money to ensure it can operate in the EU, you have to wonder if its worth staying in if the price is so high. Look at Iceland again, when all this started they let their own banks collapse with a view of rebuilding. Look at therm now a few years on, I'm sure they had some tough years but they've made great progress.

If the forest fire approaches your log cabin, you don't throw the last of your drinking water at it in order to put it out. You can't put it out. You simply leave the house, & make a new one. Highly simplistic I know, but it seems to me the only people all this debt & burden actually protects, are the usual suspects.

weisses

What is shocking is the phrase i heard on some news channel

"Banks are staying closed because we are afraid people will show up and withdraw" THEIR money

Not strange when you realize that only 15% percent of the Money is actually there

BloodBath

Where's the conspiracy here?

They should never have been allowed into the euro in the first place. As badly run as Ireland was Cyprus makes us look like saints.

While I don't agree that taking savings from people is the solution it doesn't surprise me that the idiots running their country came up with the idea. They would be no loss if we were cut them loose.

Torakx

Blackmail for a start.
And also queries relating to bankers who are beholden to the IMF in a way.
Who I think was started by the "elites".
But sure lets go with blackmail to start.When you supply enough evidence to show that is absolutely ridiculous, I can go into the other Ct's a bit more.
Instead of info thrown in all over the place and several sub topics going at once.
Id like to find out exactly who is blackmailing Cyprus aswell.
Who is behind the bankers/IMF that decided on the numbers and route to get money out of them for another loan?

BloodBath

Their country is run by idiots. Nobody is blackmailing them.

It was a bad idea. The money could easily have been obtained by other means like raising their vat rates which are among the lowest in Europe and other taxes.

How is that any different? At least taking a % of savings is only taking money from people who have spare savings.

What is the purpose of the "elites" taking this money when all of it is going back into Cyprus?

Jonny7

Torakx wrote: »

Who I think was started by the "elites".

Torakx, who are the "elites"?

Sounds like a very generalised term that could include or exclude anyone to suit, well.. just about anything really.

Torakx

Jonny7 wrote: »

Torakx, who are the "elites"?

Sounds like a very generalised term that could include or exclude anyone to suit, well.. just about anything really.

The top 1-2% of the worlds wealthiest familes/corporations that had interests or involvement in he creation and/or running of the IMF and international economy.
Here is something I searched a min ago that might help also.
http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/wbimf/oppose
and
http://www.xat.org/xat/worldbank.html
There are some names of corporations and families that might be considered the "elites".
But you have been around long enouh to know this already.
So you agree it was black mail?

Jonny7

Torakx wrote: »

The top 1-2% of the worlds wealthiest familes/corporations that had interests or involvement in he creation and/or running of the IMF and international economy.
Here is something I searched a min ago that might help also.
http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/wbimf/oppose
and
http://www.xat.org/xat/worldbank.html
There are some names of corporations and families that might be considered the "elites".
But you have been around long enouh to know this already.
So you agree it was black mail?

Many people on these boards are in the top 1% of the world - in fact quite a few are in the top 0.1%. These people could also be considered "elites". The term just seems to carry a different and very broad meaning for whomever wields it.

The Cypriot situation just seems to be very much akin to the Greek or Irish situation; mismanagement, greed, lack of foresight, corruption - the usual.

Torakx

Jonny7 wrote: »

Many people on these boards are in the top 1% of the world - in fact quite a few are in the top 0.1%. These people could also be considered "elites". The term just seems to carry a different and very broad meaning for whomever wields it.

The Cypriot situation just seems to be very much akin to the Greek or Irish situation; mismanagement, greed, lack of foresight, corruption - the usual.

I explained what I ment by the Elites.
I stated Elites because out of the range of people described in those links provided just for you, I am unsure who exactly might be involved directly in this situation.
Im hoping to get other peoples theories and opinions.
If you want to limit all discussion on this topic by forcing people to prove a theory before its fullydeveloped, we can get the mods to address the situation.
Either its a debating boards or a discussion boards...or maybe both.
I was here with the idea to discuss the theories around this situation, not pigeon hole the discussion from the start.
If there is an issue in this regard, please speak to the mods or report the original post.

On the actual topic and your comment on it,I dont think any of this stuff is unplanned.
My theory is that alot of the financial crisis etc is planned and I would like to talk about the various groups and fmailies that might be involved.
See links for information on the "elites" that might be involved through puppets.

Sacksian

Torakx wrote: »

My theory is that alot of the financial crisis etc is planned and I would like to talk about the various groups and fmailies that might be involved.

If your theory is that a lot of the financial crisis is planned, you could start with talking about the mechanisms of how that would work. Rather than jumping straight into who might be involved.

Does that not make sense?

Also, the discussion is probably of broader interest so might be best to start a new thread (as the subject of this one is about Cyprus).

Torakx

Sacksian wrote: »

If your theory is that a lot of the financial crisis is planned, you could start with talking about the mechanisms of how that would work. Rather than jumping straight into who might be involved.

Does that not make sense?

Also, the discussion is probably of broader interest so might be best to start a new thread (as the subject of this one is about Cyprus).

Feel free to start a new thread.Or even better, there are older threads where alot of this is covered, which would help people catch up on this topic.
I would like to discuss Cyprus in relation to the IMF and those involved.
As I said my theory is that Cyprus were blackmailed into taking money from their people, in order to maintain their economy which is reliant now on Europe, but maybe soon just Russia if they lend more aid.
There is enough going on there to merit a discussion.
If people dont want to talk about the topic and share thoughts, they can always make a new thread with their own theory.
I wont even post an objection in their thread ^^
Il actually let an open discussion take place.

So far This whole page is a waste of space.The topic is not so much discussed.
More like attempts made to stifle discussion.
As soon as bloobath posted a comenting holding the words "wheres the conspiracy" along came the objections ^^

Agaibn back to the discussion.
I didnt get a chance to answer Bloodbaths last question,

What is the purpose of the "elites" taking this money when all of it is going back into Cyprus?

The purpose of lending money is to create debt and more room to lend more money.As money is created to bail out banks etc, there is an interested tagged along to each loan.
Bailout = loan and the people being held for the loan are not the banks in reality, but the citizens at the bottom of the ladder, when austerity measures come in afterwards to give back with interest.

So the bonus for the people who profit from the banks lending money and the IMF is that the loan cant be paid back unless the country take money(debt) from other people to give the interest back aswell.
The people at the bottom of the ladder who cant give back the interest either go further into debt by gettign bailed out and more interest owed, or they can sell resources or steal from others to give it to their lenders.

The lenders dont lose when they lend money, they get their pound of flesh in the end.The issue with todays economic climate as I see it, is that the dynamic has been getting out of hand and is starting to reach a stage were so much is owed on interest alone, that even IF everyone could pay their money back, they would still need to start selling land and resources(alot of it) to pay the interest.
This means millions of people evicted I would think as a start.
So the governments are between a rock and a hard place.
Those Cypriot ministers have a choice of being blamed for the crash of their economy thanks to their lenders cutting them off, to stealing from the public who still have money within reach.

They cant force people to pay back the banks, because there isnt enough money out in circulation to pay back the loan and the interest.

Il try give a simple and inaccurate example to explain the situation/dynamic im talking about.

I will have many detractors to this thread for these comments, but for those interested in CT's this might be apt.

For the sake of this example pretend I have to myself in a secret lair(with an open roof ofc!) the one and only apple tree in existence.
I lend my friend 3 apples for him to use.He can trade them or food with his friends etc.
But I need 4 apples back.
I then lend some other guys apples at the same ratio.
At the start I lend them real apples, but find that people are using them to trade more and more(ye these are magic apples they dont rot ^^).
So I start promising different people loads of apples at the same ratio in exchange for the interest at a later date.Now I dont have those apples ready.But I can give them a promisary note that will do.

Now thanks to fractional reserve applebanking I have given myself the authority to lend a certain amount of promises of apples out in relation to how many I am owed back(not including interest, i think).

So there arent much apples in reality but I have alot of promised notes floating around now and im owed alot of interest! yipeee!.
So the promissary notes become the new currency and I phase the apples out, while keeping my prmissary system running in the foreground.
Soon everyone is using my system and have totally forgotten about the apples I used to base the whole thing on.

Instead of returning apples, my friends and their friends return my promissary notes.By now these notes are a trusted currency and I can now use them to buy up land and products etc from people relying on this currency.
Hmm lets call this imaginary currency..Greenbacks

Anyway say Cyrpus owed me alot of greenbacks with interest and we both know there isnt enough out there to be returned with the added interest.
So they are already reliant on my promissary notes to function.Its not easy to restart your economy on a whole new system and "trust".
So i tell them, look il give you more greenbacks(which are based on nothing remember, my apple tree is irrelevant now), but you must first manage to get a hold of a certain amount of greenbacks from somewhere else before I will lend you yet more again(with interest).

Doesnt that seem like blackmail?Setting aside the ridiculousness of the situation in the first place.
It might be a bad example to use apples lol.
They represented gold currency(which i theory you can eat, but I wouldnt reccommend it).The greenbacks do not represent Lincolns currency, but the current one we have now,although there may be some similarities.

Sorry, just to add to that.
A reason in the first place to ask for them to come up with money, is because if they start creating too much money too fast, they risk inflationary issues and the loss of power versus other currencies around the globe.

Jonny7

Another way to look at it is that there isn't really any plan to steal money from Cyprus, quite the opposite they want to try and keep Cyprus stable and afloat - because it's stability affects us all (albeit less so than Greece)

The reasons given for this type of bailout (as opposed to an Irish or Greek style bailout) is that everyone with savings of over 20,000 euros would have to contribute a portion to keep the country out of bankruptcy. The logic seemed to be that over half of Cypriot savings are foreign owned, mostly Russian (including a lot of dodgy and laundered money) - and this would help keep the country out of bankruptcy

But perhaps it's more clever than we think, it's pushed the Cypriots to rush and try to get an enormous loan from the Russians, who are also pretty eager considering it's some 30 billion of their money in savings.

Torakx

Yeah, I dont think the idea was to get their hands on the citizens savings accounts.
Because the whole idea behind the money scheme is to create more debt, or at least it was starting out.
Maybe it is just out of hand now, with so much debt and interest built up, that it cant be paid.
It might be that the system is nearing a critical stage and they are literaly struggling to stay afloat.
Blackmailing Cyprus might make sense if that is the case.Forcing someone else to relieve the burden and taking the heat if it goes wrong.
I dont think the ECB want Cyprus to leave the EU.
They might not be able to afford the extra debt creation while propping up so many other plates.
So have asked Cyprus to spin their own plate to an extent.
I do take on board the issue with foreign moey sitting in accounts.But that is neither here nor there is it?
Maybe the ECB are annoyed they were losing out on business and decided to make things awkward as a lesson.

I would be suprised if they decided to add no support to Cyprus and allow Russia to move in.Unless Russia have no vested interest there at all.But im thiking they might, if they already have been supporting Cyprus.

BloodBath

Well I understand how debt works but they can't expect interest free loans. They mismanaged their economy and banks and need billions just to stay afloat. They can't expect other EU states to bail them out interest free.

They offered stupidly high interest rates which are still in place as far as I know and is part of the reason there is so much Russian money sitting in their banks. I can understand why they proposed targeting savings there.

You don't get something for nothing anywhere. Why should other member states fund their mismanagement and get nothing in return?

Torakx

BloodBath wrote: »

Well I understand how debt works but they can't expect interest free loans. They mismanaged their economy and banks and need billions just to stay afloat. They can't expect other EU states to bail them out interest free.

They offered stupidly high interest rates which are still in place as far as I know and is part of the reason there is so much Russian money sitting in their banks. I can understand why they proposed targeting savings there.

You don't get something for nothing anywhere. Why should other member states fund their mismanagement and get nothing in return?

For me it all comes down to the IMF.
They define alot of the lending and interest rates.
Have you looked into fractional reserve banking?
Its the mechanism which allows national banks to loan out money.Last time I went to the economics forums about fractionalreserve policies I didnt get any reason as to why the reserves needed were so low to lend out money(essentially creating more debt).
That aside, the whole system is a farce.
My admitedly rushed apple/greenback story highlights the why.
They are propping up a faulty system.Someone has to fall.
Whats worrying is if the debts are called back.Its literally impossible to pay al the money back and set the system to zero.Where does the interest come from for all the global currency?
If it colapses we either have to tell the "elites" go shove it, or else face some kind of crazy depopulation or war/revolution.
Or do we give them our countries and hope they rule us with kindness and compassion?
Or maybe im being overly dramatic lol
Im not worried really, we are all in the same boat more or less.

I saw a documentary a good while back after the economic crash, that said the next bubble will be bail outs.
We may be nearing the end of that bubble and im not sure what else they can do to bandage it up, aside from WW3 or something as large scale and global as that.

Your right that they cant expect interest free loans.I dont see there being any easy solution.
Maybe ditching out of the euro is a solution, but hard to see how that will work without massive civil uprisings and loads of propped up businesses colapsing.

Is Iceland a good comparison, solution wise?
Im not that familiar with it.Sorry if I asked this before.
Dont remember an answer to it if I did.

BloodBath

I don't know the ins and outs of it. I'd imagine them opting out of the euro would be a disaster for them and would put them in a far worse situation than they are in already.

As bad as things are at the moment they are still a hell of a better than they were in the 70's and 80's or before then. We got massive EU funding to build our country up in the first place.

I don't understand Irish people that have anti Euro ideals. Especially the ones who are old enough to remember how **** things were prior to the 90's boom which happened largely because of our EU funding.

Torakx

BloodBath wrote: »

I don't know the ins and outs of it. I'd imagine them opting out of the euro would be a disaster for them and would put them in a far worse situation than they are in already.

As bad as things are at the moment they are still a hell of a better than they were in the 70's and 80's or before then. We got massive EU funding to build our country up in the first place.

I don't understand Irish people that have anti Euro ideals. Especially the ones who are old enough to remember how **** things were prior to the 90's boom which happened largely because of our EU funding.

I agree they may be in a much worse position for leaving,without Russian support and even with.
Because they have dedicated their economy to the euro system.

I remember the food stamp days lol
Fun times..NOT!
However I would still prefer that and a slow building economy over the choices we made.
In saying that, Irish politics has always been corrupted,so its hard to say who and how we would have been sold down the drain had we not put our lot in with europe.
Maybe we would have been a fishing and farming nation.
I think the resources we gave to europe were not equal to the debts we amounted.
But then again I dont know all the figures there either and im mainly going on gut instinct lol

Over here, I think mostly what did us over was the housing bubble, which I believe was manufactured.
People are simply not smart enough in general to realise the risks they were taking with loans and credit cards back then.
I have friends who are in major debt because of spending sprees on credit cards.
I seem to be one of the few between us all that was always wary of committing to loans.
But I dont put all the blame on them.Alot of the advertising and atmosphere was built up in Ireland around getting "cheap" loans and 90% mort-gages.

Absolam

I'm still not seeing where blackmail comes into it? Cyprus don't have the money to run the country, so they need to borrow it. Whoever is prepared to lend them money will attach conditions to the loan, just as anyone would if they lent money to someone else. It's apparent now that raiding savings accounts wasn't a condition attached to the offer of a loan, it was a mechanism conceived by the Cypriots to meet a condition attached to the offer of a loan. So who is blackmailing who, and with what?

Jonny7

Well they are desparately trying to hammer out a deal right now, I am fairly sure at the final hour they'll pull something out.

However, if they don't, the entire Cypriot banking sector looks like it will collapse

For those not following this, that is a very very bad thing

BloodBath

I have no sympathy for people who were taking 90% and higher mortgages. Especially when that was as high as 500k. Everyone got greedy, not just the bankers. We can blame the banks all we want but everyone has a share in it. Greedy bankers, greedy builders and greedy house hunters.

I totally agree we sold ourselves short though practically giving away our main assets of fishing and gas reserves. We don't have much land but we have a lot of sea/ocean. We sold our cow for 3 not so magic beans. Bertie and co should be lynched.

Anyway enough off topic ranting. I understand why they targeted the banks considering their interest rates were/are way too high so they are trying to get some of that money back but it was short sighted considering that everyone will now want to take their money out of those banks resulting in total collapse. Like I said their country is run by idiots. The only option now would be to freeze assets in those accounts until they remove the money or somehow guarantee that the money won't be touched but the damage is already done.

Torakx

Absolam wrote: »

I'm still not seeing where blackmail comes into it? Cyprus don't have the money to run the country, so they need to borrow it. Whoever is prepared to lend them money will attach conditions to the loan, just as anyone would if they lent money to someone else. It's apparent now that raiding savings accounts wasn't a condition attached to the offer of a loan, it was a mechanism conceived by the Cypriots to meet a condition attached to the offer of a loan. So who is blackmailing who, and with what?

Its true the terms were just to come up with a certain amount, not stating where it was to come from.
But considering they had a reputation, apparently, for holding foriegn savings, I would say it might have been known already where the money was expected to come from.
What was the other option?Let the country colapse?
Possibly they could have borrowed from Russia to cover thei end and aquire the EU loan.But either way, when they get anothe rloan they will be destroyed eventually on the interest.

The whole reason they are probably in debt is from borrowing money at interest to run the country.
As we did and still do here in Ireland.

Any politician pushing for a bailout or not going up against thos policies in my view is either a complete tool ( the proper meaning of the word ) or corrupt and not suitable to be in any position of responsibility anywhere.Let alone in control of the future of so many million people.
Ugh.. I think the word Voter is becoming a curse word in my presence lol
I am so frustrated with the system and the people propping it up.

Sacksian

Torakx wrote: »

The whole reason they are probably in debt is from borrowing money at interest to run the country.
As we did and still do here in Ireland.

In your opinion, how should Ireland finance its public services, social welfare, infrastructure, etc?

Oracle

Absolutely disgraceful that the ECB is threatening a member State. What a cheek, they caused the crisis in the first place, with their super low interest rates and lax fiscal regulation. The Cyprus Finance minister should call the ECB's bluff and say fine let the country go bankrupt. Like a house of cards the whole system would collapse and the EU know it.

Torakx

Sacksian wrote: »

In your opinion, how should Ireland finance its public services, social welfare, infrastructure, etc?

I only stated the reason for being in that situation.
The solution now is debateable.

Personally I would advise alot of changes,but have not thought seriously about them.When would I ever get a chance to get my ideas used?
Never is my thinking and so I dont waste my time on it.
But....
One industry to take advantage of is Marijuana and hemp.
Hemp being the more reliable with our weather.But the former also could be grown in bulk using poly tunnels I would guess, if not just factories.
Second I would advise trying to take back our gas and selling it ourselves.
Also our fisheries need to be left alone for a good few years to replenish.
Another reason to leave the EU.

Other random ideas off the top of my head, might be making relations with other countries like China/Russia/India etc if possible.
I would like us to return to some semblance of neutrality aswell.

I do see the issues in these ideas.I wouldnt expect a direct change, but more a very gradual phasing.
Really we have been pigeon holed for a while now.
What I realistically would like to see is a bit of honesty from politicians about the situation and some consideration for the future.
Right now they are looking out for themselves, not doing their job and selling us out at nearly every turn.
They then retire, pocket a ton of money for ruining our countries future for the sake of the present and pass the buck onto the next guy...who does the same thing.
Whoever mentioned lynching is not far off from my opinion.
However I do think once your in a position of power and you attempt to right the wrongs, you leave yourself open as a major target for many people.
Some honesty and education for the general public might go a long way though.

But anyway, the topic is Cyrpus, sorry to drift off lol.
Although those same suggestions might be more suitable for Cyprus now that I think about it.