The Heaslip Captaincy

Teferi

The shock appointment made before the 6N has repeatedly come under the spotlight. For some it was a sign of change, perhaps Kidney had finally turned a corner. For others they were at best wary and at worst utterly livid.

Before a ball had even been kicked criticisms were coming from certain quarters regarding the appointment - Have they been proven right and have their questions been answered? Are his headphones too gaudy? Does his latest haircut look ridiculous? Are his steaks really horsemeat? Let's be honest, their criticism was based on their dislike for the man and little more. I think we can discount their opinion.

For the rest of us we nervously stood by waiting for the first whistle. Most were well aware that Heaslip is seen as a leader within both Leinster and Ireland and is definitely a voice on the field but would that transfer over easily to the captaincy? Would he be hindered by very literally standing in the shadow of BOD?

I think at best we can conclude that it was a shaky start to his reign. It seemed to effect his game early in the tournament as he attempted to concentrate both on his own game and that of his team. When games became tight or Ireland were chasing you often saw BOD making the decisions and rallying the team. The game against Italy was probably Heaslips best individual performance in the tournament but had he really grown into the role yet and was he really providing the leadership so desperately needed? I don't think so sadly.

Where do we go from here? A new coach could easily change the skipper again and there are some individuals who come to mind - Best, Sexton, POC etc. all with their own pros and cons.

Personally I'd be for continuing with Heaslip. Bod's career in green is now over or very nearly so. At best we will see him have on last shot at the All Blacks come November but I can't see him going into another 6 Nations. Will Bod not being on the field make it easier for Heaslip to lead? I'd be one for at least giving it a shot.

athtrasna

I seriously didn't see any evidence of leadership from Heaslip all championship. I felt from the start that he was the wrong person and 7 games later (AI games & 6 Nations) that feeling has not changed. The only thing that has been evident is that Heaslip's game suffered in the earlier games from the weight of the position.

Teferi wrote: »

Where do we go from here? A new coach could easily change the skipper again and there are some individuals who come to mind - Best, Sexton, POC etc. all with their own pros and cons.

Sexton the only choice of those three IMO. Need a captain for the future, and someone guaranteed a start. Not too many in the current squad tick the box of relative youth and guaranteed start, combined with the qualities of a captain.

awec

Firstly, I can't say I was overly impressed with his showing. That said, he was put in a difficult position, being made captain while the previous captain who also happened to be a legend and fan favourite was still playing. I think this made things more difficult for him.

On top of that, Ireland as a collective unit really stank the entire tournament out. We were pretty brutal, which made his job more difficult. So all in all it's difficult to say.

The underlying issue here is that outside of BOD we have no obvious captain choice. There is no standout, it's a best of the rest situation. We need someone who is irreplaceable, who will play every game and not just because they are captain but because they're feckin brilliant. Do we have that?

Best - unsure what will happen around Strauss, could be more of a rotation in future.
POC - in one sense he's probably an obvious choice, given that he is an on the field leader and a great player. On the other hand, we have no idea how he will be post-injury, nor how much longer he'll feature for Ireland.
Sexton - not overly keen on the #10 being captain, he has enough responsibility as it is.

The rest are either not guaranteed starters or just not captain material.

thebaz

Captain in waiting is Sexton - year after, he settles in France

GiftofGab

Well the captain choice was between Sexton, Heaslip and Best. POC is getting on in years and wont be around for too long. I dont think anybody else is in contention for the captain. I believe that Kidney wanted to choose a forward for captain so it was a toss between Best and Heaslip. I think it was a year too early for Heaslip but it is the right choice. He had a bad Six Nations but so did alot of players. I don't approve of alot of his off field antics like flashy headphones and twetter account (thou he seemed to have stop tweeting). He appears to love the limelight too much for a captain. But he is a workhorse on the field and I believe he will grow into the role. BOD should have definately given the captain this year and will most likely not play another 6 nations again.

Teferi

GiftofGab wrote: »

I don't approve of alot of his off field antics like flashy headphones and twetter account (thou he seemed to have stop tweeting). He appears to love the limelight too much for a captain.

This is the stuff I don't get. I've addressed the headphones in my original post but what exactly does he do on Twitter that other rugby players don't? He doesn't even use it often compared to others and he uses it in an intelligent manner. He's quite conservative in what he posts and doesn't particularly offer opinion - just pictures of his day etc. absolutely nothing offensive.

He has never seemed comfortable in any personal interview I've seen him in and interviewers have often written about how uncomfortable he is discussing his private life and how little he gives away about it. You rarely see pictures of him in print media out and about on the town so I'm not exactly sure how you could accuse him of loving the limelight.

JoeyDoh

The problem is he's not "Salt of the earth" enough for some people. The "casual" fan don't see him on the big barnstorming runs that earned him his name and associate it with a lack of form, completely ignoring other aspects of his game.

The level of hypocrisy of some people is astounding. Often I see comments on twitter and forums mocking him for owning a restaurant and promoting it. Yet when past players like David Wallace open a sweet shop and bring out a line of protein shakers, all you read and see is " Setting himself up for the future" , "Man of the people".

The same people say he is too flashy and seen in the media far too much. He made his first appearance on the late late show before the AIs, arguably the biggest media platform in the country, while Tommy Bowe has been on numerous time, flaunting his footwear at one stage. Yet people still call Heaslip a media whore. Realistically the "flashiest" player in the country is Simon Zebo, often seen flashing a Z to the camera after scoring a try, he can also be seen on youtube showing off his rapping skills.(I've no problem with that at all, he's having the craic and why not, he's young and a potential supertar)

He inherited the Captaincy at the wrong time, but I believe he was and is the natural successor to O'Driscoll. Trying to fill the shoes of the greatest Irish player/captain of all time while the man is still on the pitch is a daunting task. Not to mention the fact he had to lead an underpowered and broken Irish squad, missing key players throughout.

corny

I think the problem with Heaslip as captain is the reaction to Heaslip as captain. This is going to be an issue as long as wears the armband.

Personally i've always thought the position and the impact is overstated. If i was an international i wouldn't be relying on another player to motivate me or focus my mind. Even it did, Heaslip was as focal, supportive and committed as any player during the campaign. (French match for example.)

It hasn't affected his game either imo. He suffered, just like everyone else (bar maybe SOB) to excel in the 6N's. Was that due to the weight of the captaincy? I'm not convinced. BOD was less than stellar too, apart from a cameo against Wales and topped it all off with a nasty stamp in the final game when we needed him most. By comparison was he providing great leadership during the tournament?

Its Heaslips decisions during the Scotland game, which gave traction to these criticisms, i'd argue they were decided beforehand. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Heaslip was instructed to go for the corner because the management had little faith in Jackson, on his first start, kicking his goals.

themont85

thebaz wrote: »

Captain in waiting is Sexton - year after, he settles in France

Doubtful he gets appointed whilst playing in France.

rrpc

Very similar doubts were cast on the BOD captaincy when it was awarded him: "Too young", "Will affect his game", "Not involved enough in the engine room of the team" etc.

For me, I thought it took a couple of years for him to settle into the role. There were incidents that grated with the media such as the 'Powerade moment' when BOD continuously and obviously drank from a Powerade bottle during a post match interview making sure the label was clearly visible causing Hook to label his glass of water 'Hook's Hooch' and mimic him afterwards to great hilarity from the panel. :rolleyes:

Heaslip's captaincy didn't start well, not only because of the issues mentioned above but also because of the obvious disappointment that BOD felt in the way it was handled. He needs the same time and space that BOD got to develop into the role and I'm sure he'll be fine given that time and space.

ConFurioso

athtrasna wrote: »

I seriously didn't see any evidence of leadership from Heaslip all championship. I felt from the start that he was the wrong person and 7 games later (AI games & 6 Nations) that feeling has not changed. The only thing that has been evident is that Heaslip's game suffered in the earlier games from the weight of the position.

Serious question, and not trying to trap you or anything, but what leadership qualities were you expecting from Heaslip that were absent?

athtrasna

ConFurioso wrote: »

Serious question, and not trying to trap you or anything, but what leadership qualities were you expecting from Heaslip that were absent?

Decisiveness, support, inspiration. Going back to my first internationals when Woody was captain, you could feel their leadership in the stands, same with BOD & Paulie (not so much ROG). They led by example and gave 1 00%. Heaslip got binned during his first game as captain. And if you watch back you see other players stepping up to try & motivate, obviously BOD but also Ryan,Sexton and Best. Heaslip just doesn't inspire.

nc6000

The captaincy should never have been taken from BOD.

desertcircus

athtrasna wrote: »

Decisiveness, support, inspiration. Going back to my first internationals when Woody was captain, you could feel their leadership in the stands, same with BOD & Paulie (not so much ROG). They led by example and gave 1 00%. Heaslip got binned during his first game as captain. And if you watch back you see other players stepping up to try & motivate, obviously BOD but also Ryan,Sexton and Best. Heaslip just doesn't inspire.

You can't feel someone's leadership in the stands. The closest you can get is watching someone talk while the rest listen. And we have absolutely no evidence on whether that even has a positive effect.

molloyjh

This whole debate really grates. It's utter rubbish and is peddled by people who don't like the guy personally. It's petty, which can be seen from the headphone and twitter comments. He has been a very successful captain when he has led Leinster, only losing to Clermont. He has been unfortunate to be at the centre of a s***storm around the removal of BOD as captain and starting his reign during a championship that has been coming for 2 years. I've no idea how you "feel" leadership from the stand tbh and if that's the deciding factor in all of this forgive me for not jumping on the bandwagon.

toomevara

Heaslip's captaincy was holed below the water-line from the off. Not the guys fault, Kidney needs to shoulder the blame. He should never have been handed the responsibility while BOD was still in the team. Utterly ridiculous and a completely poisoned chalice. Captaincy is a strange beast (there are those who say it's irrelevant and over-rated, especially in the modern pro-game), but when you see a genuine captain you know it. Paul O'Connell, Martin Johnson, BOD, Sean Fitzpatrick, Ibanez, Sole,Galthie, Pienaar, Carling to name but a few.

Great leaders, on and, almost more importantly, off the field whose players would patently run through a brick wall for them. Heaslip is a fine rugby player and clearly a genuine bloke, but not, I would say a born leader. He also appears to be one of those players who diminishes under the strain of captaincy, whereas to all those named above it is meat and drink.

I would imagine if BOD keeps body and soul together till the summer he'll captain the Lions to OZ. Is there a precedent for that i.e. a player who wasn't captain of his national side captaining the Lions in the same season? Having said all of that if Julius Caesar/ Irwin Rommel and Patton themselves were in charge of ireland this year it would have availed us not one jot...

CIARAN_BOYLE

toomevara wrote: »

I would imagine if BOD keeps body and soul together till the summer he'll captain the Lions to OZ. Is there a precedent for that i.e. a player who wasn't captain of his national side captaining the Lions in the same season? Having said all of that if Julius Caesar/ Irwin Rommel and Patton themselves were in charge of ireland this year it would have availed us not one jot...

POC

toomevara

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

POC

Good man, of course...

d-gal

A captain should lead by example, heaslip does not. He's a poor speaker, and an extremely average leader. He's supposed to lead from the front, be a stand out and he failed that. BOD, Sefton and Best gave more instructions. He was outshone by SOB and POM. He is no way in the category of previous captains (Wood, BOD and POC) and he never will be. The only choices long term are Sexton and maybe Best.
Realistically when Ferris is back then Heaslips spot should be up for grabs since he was the worst of the backrows. That's not captain standard

LuckyLloyd

Don't care about his off field persona. On the field he has been a poor captain through five games.

If Paul O'Connell regains fitness he should be the Captain. Otherwise Sexton.

molloyjh

d-gal wrote: »

A captain should lead by example, heaslip does not. He's a poor speaker, and an extremely average leader. He's supposed to lead from the front, be a stand out and he failed that. BOD, Sefton and Best gave more instructions. He was outshone by SOB and POM. He is no way in the category of previous captains (Wood, BOD and POC) and he never will be. The only choices long term are Sexton and maybe Best.
Realistically when Ferris is back then Heaslips spot should be up for grabs since he was the worst of the backrows. That's not captain standard

Heaslip has had to modify his game to suit the back row players we have. He is consistently one of our top tacklers, top players to win turnovers and he is a general pain in the ass at breakdowns. As I said before he does a lot of the opensides role to facilitate SOBs ball carrying. His performances in this 6Ns have been a little disappointing but so have everyone else's for the most part. Himself and SOB were our most effective carriers against Italy as well btw. He hasn't been outstanding but he hasn't been anywhere near as poor as some people are saying.

Tox56

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Don't care about his off field persona. On the field he has been a poor captain through five games.

If Paul O'Connell regains fitness he should be the Captain. Otherwise Sexton.

Sexton would be a really bad captain from anything I've seen. 10's could do without the extra responsibility anyway but he doesn't seem suited for it at all. He is one to show his emotions on the field and not one I would pick to make level-headed decisions in the heat of battle. Built in the ROG mould, and he didn't make a particularly good captain either.

Thud

athtrasna wrote: »

Need a captain for the future, and someone guaranteed a start. Not too many in the current squad tick the box of relative youth and guaranteed start, combined with the qualities of a captain.

awec wrote: »

We need someone who is irreplaceable, who will play every game and not just because they are captain but because they're feckin brilliant. Do we have that?

JoeyDoh wrote: »

The problem is he's not "Salt of the earth" enough for some people. The "casual" fan don't see him on the big barnstorming runs that earned him his name and associate it with a lack of form, completely ignoring other aspects of his game.

ummm who fits that bill....

corny wrote: »

It hasn't affected his game either imo. He suffered, just like everyone else (bar maybe SOB)

molloyjh wrote: »

. Himself and SOB were our most effective carriers against Italy as well btw

d-gal wrote: »

A captain should lead by example..... He was outshone by SOB..

athtrasna

Thud wrote: »

ummm who fits that bill....

I'm guessing you're thinking of Peter O'Mahony for captain

Tombo2001

corny wrote: »

I think the problem with Heaslip as captain is the reaction to Heaslip as captain. This is going to be an issue as long as wears the armband.

Thats very well put.

I always think the Irish sports public and media gets distracted by side issues. I would very much see this as a side issue. No matter who was made captain, there would be "question marks" about them at this moment in time.

.ak

Meh, I think he was fine. Perhaps some dodgy calls during the Welsh game, but considering it was his first 6N as captain and had only stood in as captain for Leinster a few times, I think he did just fine. He'll grow into that role, time is on his side.

He'll learn a lot from this campaign.

ktulu123

In fairness, unless one of us has played a match with Heaslip as captain we are not really in a position make a judgement on it. How are we to know what he actually says on the pitch or in the dressing room? Unfortunately there is no 'Heaslip Cam' in games so we can watch him all the time.

We can make a few observations though. We have seen him talking to his team mates PLENTY of times during the six nations(when the camera was on him). With regard to penalty decisions, can anyone 100% say that they did not come from the management? The guy is an absolute beast at the breakdown, he wins countless turnovers & is a tackling machine. I would call that leading from the front. Sure we would all like him to be making barnstorming runs like he used to, but how are we to know what the team orders have been? It looks to me that Heaslip has changed into more of a 7/8 role with Sean O' Brien making the big runs.

He was unfortunate to be stuck in the middle of a captaincy change over that I believe was handled badly. But that is down to bad management by Kidney.

Clareman

I don't think he did too badly, the only real "mistakes" I can remember from him was going for the corner instead of going for points early against Scotland, but if the line out had functioned then they could have been the right decisions.

Anyway, in regards to who to have as captain, for me being a captain in rugby should follow the following criteria:
Play every minute of every match (baring injuries of course).
Be articulate and respected by refs.
Be a member of the pack.

The last 1 is important to me, the vast majority of infringements come at the breakdown, having a captain there to speak to the ref and to gauge what is happening is vital, even a small thing like asking the 10 if they can kick from there is easier than having someone run in from the wing.

Another vital thing to remember is just cause you're the captain doesn't mean that you are the only leader, every line on the pitch should have it's own leader, Ireland are lucky to have so many leaders on the pitch (Best, Ryan, Heaslip, BoD, Sexton, Kearney), just because they don't do the press conferences or captains run or whatever doesn't make they less of a leader, just look back at the Italy game and see BoD and Kearney giving PoM lessons on how to be a winger, these guys saw what needed to be done and did it.

BTW, for the record, prior to the start of the 6 Nations I agreed with taking the captaincy off BoD, the guy was recovering from a fairly serious injury and was stuggling to get back to full fitness, I don't know if the extra time training or with physios made any difference, but he had a magnificent tournament.

Tobyglen

He was awful, easily the worst 8 in the competition. Comprehensibly outplayed by Picamoles/Parisse. The guy can't get over the gain line anymore.

The guy has been poor in an Irish jersey for 3 years now, he simply has lost all his strength in contact and the decision to make him captain was the poorest of Kidneys decision. In terms of leadership I have been at times embarrassed watching him try to rally the players, he doesn't have the respect of a warrior like BOD or even Best. Failing that Sexton.

BOD should have been left to captain the side.

Otacon

Clareman wrote: »

Be a member of the pack.

My ideal captain would be the scrumhalf. He is involved in the break down while able to keep a bird's eye view of it. However, I am not advocating Murray for the job, before anyone jumps on me.

As for Heaslip, I was a doubter of his captaincy when it was announced. All I can say now is, I remain a doubter.

tbm

molloyjh wrote: »

Heaslip has had to modify his game to suit the back row players we have. He is consistently one of our top tacklers, top players to win turnovers and he is a general pain in the ass at breakdowns. As I said before he does a lot of the opensides role to facilitate SOBs ball carrying. His performances in this 6Ns have been a little disappointing but so have everyone else's for the most part. Himself and SOB were our most effective carriers against Italy as well btw. He hasn't been outstanding but he hasn't been anywhere near as poor as some people are saying.

I'm sick of saying pretty much exactly this to people. And any number 8 playing behind a perpetually bested pack is never going to look that good. I was glad when he got the captaincy, but I feel now it should have been kept with BOD, and then given to Heaslip. It just been managed terribly. I fully expect his to be back to his best over the next year or so. Too late for the Lions call up though.

Webbs

Tobyglen wrote: »

He was awful, easily the worst 8 in the competition. Comprehensibly outplayed by Picamoles/Parisse. The guy can't get over the gain line anymore.

The guy has been poor in an Irish jersey for 3 years now, he simply has lost all his strength in contact and the decision to make him captain was the poorest of Kidneys decision. In terms of leadership I have been at times embarrassed watching him try to rally the players, he doesn't have the respect of a warrior like BOD or even Best. Failing that Sexton.

BOD should have been left to captain the side.

Heaslip was probably the only 8 who didnt play as an 8, the imbalance in the Irish backrow means the numbers on their backs are almost irrelevant.
Look at Faletau and how he is able to make runs one or two passes off the ruck, because Tipuric/Warburon are burrowing away. Is the same for Picamoles for France.
For Ireland it is Heaslip doing the burrowing and O'Brien doing the runs. I dont see any issue with his strength in contact as he is not receiving balls in space or coming onto the ball at pace. I would say that he rarely turns the ball over when taking into contact.

If Ireland get a proper balanced backrow then you should see far more of Heaslip doing the show pony stuff that everyone loves

desertcircus

Tobyglen wrote: »

He was awful, easily the worst 8 in the competition. Comprehensibly outplayed by Picamoles/Parisse. The guy can't get over the gain line anymore.

The guy has been poor in an Irish jersey for 3 years now, he simply has lost all his strength in contact and the decision to make him captain was the poorest of Kidneys decision. In terms of leadership I have been at times embarrassed watching him try to rally the players, he doesn't have the respect of a warrior like BOD or even Best. Failing that Sexton.

BOD should have been left to captain the side.

Except he doesn't play as a standard 8. And you have absolutely no idea whether he has the respect of other players. And you don't know how he rallies the players. And his job isn't to get over the gainline these days. And he's frequently excelled at his role in the last three years.

Grimebox

He should have been made captain when BOD retires, not now. That is what has ruined it for him imo. He has all the qualities of an excellent captain but being promoted ahead of BOD has and will draw a huge amount of flak. I really feel for him in the recent post match interviews

twinytwo

.ak wrote: »

Meh, I think he was fine. Perhaps some dodgy calls during the Welsh game, but considering it was his first 6N as captain and had only stood in as captain for Leinster a few times, I think he did just fine. He'll grow into that role, time is on his side.

He'll learn a lot from this campaign.

Im sorry, were you watching the same games i was??...

twinytwo

desertcircus wrote: »

Except he doesn't play as a standard 8. And you have absolutely no idea whether he has the respect of other players. And you don't know how he rallies the players. And his job isn't to get over the gainline these days. And he's frequently excelled at his role in the last three years.

yes it is...

d-gal

Webbs wrote: »

Heaslip was probably the only 8 who didnt play as an 8, the imbalance in the Irish backrow means the numbers on their backs are almost irrelevant.
Look at Faletau and how he is able to make runs one or two passes off the ruck, because Tipuric/Warburon are burrowing away. Is the same for Picamoles for France.
For Ireland it is Heaslip doing the burrowing and O'Brien doing the runs. I dont see any issue with his strength in contact as he is not receiving balls in space or coming onto the ball at pace. I would say that he rarely turns the ball over when taking into contact.

If Ireland get a proper balanced backrow then you should see far more of Heaslip doing the show pony stuff that everyone loves

If that's the case then bring in Ferris for him. Throw SOB or POM into the no.8
SOB and POM out performed heaslip in the 6nations. Ferris is obviously better than Heaslip in every aspect.
The captains position should never be under threat. POC and BOD never lost their position or under threat. First name on the team sheet everytime.

desertcircus

twinytwo wrote: »

yes it is...

Not really, he's not employed as a gainline breaker for Ireland. Demented Mole had a huge piece on it after the NZ tour last year, the gist of which was that he was being used to clear out rucks rather than provide a running threat.

Grimebox

d-gal wrote: »

If that's the case then bring in Ferris for him. Throw SOB or POM into the no.8
SOB and POM out performed heaslip in the 6nations. Ferris is obviously better than Heaslip in every aspect.
The captains position should never be under threat. POC and BOD never lost their position or under threat. First name on the team sheet everytime.

So you literally want "far more of Heaslip doing the show pony stuff that everyone loves"? E.g. those barreling runs the SOB is now known for. I don't think people realise that Heaslip's role has changed in the Irish team over the past few years

.ak

twinytwo wrote: »

Im sorry, were you watching the same games i was??...

Aside from a few knock ons in the England game (not the only one), and some odd decisions in the Scottish game, I thought he played well and took the role on as you'd expect any young captain too. A lot of people are saying Robshaw has turned into a decent captain, but let's not forget some of the brainfarts he had during the AIs.

.ak

twinytwo wrote: »

yes it is...

Incorrect.

lurtz

what is Heaslips job then? Last time I checked a number 8 was meant to carry and make yards,something he has not been doing much of late.

.ak

ktulu123 wrote: »

In fairness, unless one of us has played a match with Heaslip as captain we are not really in a position make a judgement on it. How are we to know what he actually says on the pitch or in the dressing room? Unfortunately there is no 'Heaslip Cam' in games so we can watch him all the time.

We can make a few observations though. We have seen him talking to his team mates PLENTY of times during the six nations(when the camera was on him). With regard to penalty decisions, can anyone 100% say that they did not come from the management? The guy is an absolute beast at the breakdown, he wins countless turnovers & is a tackling machine. I would call that leading from the front. Sure we would all like him to be making barnstorming runs like he used to, but how are we to know what the team orders have been? It looks to me that Heaslip has changed into more of a 7/8 role with Sean O' Brien making the big runs.

He was unfortunate to be stuck in the middle of a captaincy change over that I believe was handled badly. But that is down to bad management by Kidney.

This, +1000.

We're not privy to that info, we never will be (until the next player retires and may mention it in their book). I'm always amazed when anyone says 'They don't make a good captain', about ANY player. How do you know? Unless you're there in the changing room or on the pitch you just don't.

.ak

lurtz wrote: »

what is Heaslips job then? Last time I checked a number 8 was meant to carry and make yards,something he has not been doing much of late.

The entire backrow has a balance to it, certain players have a role and others stick to it. When Fez was playing he was a primary strike runner. When he's injured it's SOB. Heaslip's role is a defensive one, he cleans up scrap ball and generally hits the offending gainline to stop the ball dead. He also has superb control at the base which is not an easy job at international level. His link play is the best of the current backrow players too.

A number 8's primary role is not to carry and make yards btw. They are expected to be dynamic runners though from the base. Which I think he does fine. Heaslip's role resembles that of an openside, but that's just the way Ireland play him. His role at Leinster is worlds apart.

Webbs

lurtz wrote: »

what is Heaslips job then? Last time I checked a number 8 was meant to carry and make yards,something he has not been doing much of late.

Similarly last time I checked a No7 job is to be an absolute nuisance at the breakdown be one of the first supporting player at the breakdown etc something that SOB doesnt do (compare him to Tipuric or even Robshaw). This is not to say that SOB isn't a fantastic player its just the Irish backrow is unbalanced so numbers are irrelevant.
Put Heaslip between Tipuric and Warburton and you will see the carries and yards made.

lurtz

When Ive been watching Heaslip he does carry but dies in contact and has no real venom to make the gainline that he used to

.ak

lurtz wrote: »

When Ive been watching Heaslip he does carry but dies in contact and has no real venom to make the gainline that he used to

That's as much Ireland's fault as it is his, he takes the ball on from a static position, just like POC used to when fit. Completely ineffectual and poor tactics. Playing the safe game.

lurtz

.ak wrote: »

That's as much Ireland's fault as it is his, he takes the ball on from a static position, just like POC used to when fit. Completely ineffectual and poor tactics. Playing the safe game.

is it not his prerogative to run onto it? Kieran Read takes the ball at 100mph like an absolute train and steams into contact

Webbs

lurtz wrote: »

is it not his prerogative to run onto it? Kieran Read takes the ball at 100mph like an absolute train and steams into contact

If Heaslip is to run onto the ball as you advocate it means he cant be part of the breakdown, so who do you say should take his position in clearing out, challenging for the ball on the floor etc, in other words have a proper 7 like McCaw? Isnt that the perogative of SOB?

molloyjh

lurtz wrote: »

is it not his prerogative to run onto it? Kieran Read takes the ball at 100mph like an absolute train and steams into contact

Very few Irish players, forwards or backs, come onto the ball at any real pace. That is a game plan issue. Even SOB comes onto it from either a standing start, at a gentle trot or laterally. We seem overly fond of setting up pods of forwards to take the ball into contact at a snails pace, recycle, rinse and repeat. We create feck all space for our backs, make feck all ground and have to resort to booting the ball downfield to gain any real territory. When we do break the gain line it often comes as such a shock that we don't have the necessary support runners to take advantage (see the SOB break against Wales for a prime example).

Heaslip has actually shown great versatility in being able to adapt his game the way that he has. And he gets nowhere near enough recognition for that. Like Locky for Leinster he does a lot of incredibly important work, but it's not glamorous so he doesn't get the plaudits. It's not helped by the fact that he used to play a traditional 8s game so it looks like he's doing far less than he used to. He'll grow as a captain too. Remember he's never been anything more than a stand in for Leo at Leinster so his experience there is pretty limited.

kilmac14

Over the championship as a whole Heaslip has been poor. Whether this is due to the weight of the captaincy or due to the lack of competition he has in his position who knows? My tuppence on the whole issue is that:

A. Heaslip should never have been put in the position of taking the captaincy while BOD was still around. In my opinion this undermined him from the start as most of the players would have been looking to BOD for leadership when things started to go wrong. An example of this was against Scotland when in the dying moments, Jackson looked at Heaslip to make a decision whether to kick at goal or go for the corner and Heaslip looked at BOD to make a decision. This showed me that Heaslip did'nt look comfortable making big call. Now whether this was down to lack of gut instinct or just now comfortable making the big calls, I don't know but for me Heaslip didn't look like he enjoyed the spotlight of the captaincy.

B. The second issue would be Heaslip's lack of competition for the No. 8 jersey. The only real alternatives are James Coughlan and Robbie Diack who should be given the chance to compete for the No. 8 spot. This would in turn put pressure on Heaslip to perform to the highest level he can to insure that he is on top of his game and would ensure that he he is'nt an automatic starter. I think this would help him to regain his form of 3/4 years ago when he was one of the top No. 8's in the game.

Also a final issue that would have made the Heaslip captaincy much harder was the loss of so many natural leaders in the squad before and during the championship: POC, Ferris, Bowe, D'arcy, Sexton etc. Losing players of this quality would weaken any teams leadership.