Irish blood, English heart. Diaspora question.

Johnerrr

So, Someone born & raised in england, english accent; of irish descent, maybe a parent who's irish & all 4 grandparents irish.

Does this person, iyo, have the right to say theyre Irish? Or are they just seen as brit/english to the locals upon arriving on the emerald isle, if they claimed irishness would they be deemed a "pplastic paddy"?

I can think of a few examples: celtic fans in scotland waving irish tricolours at matches, irish-americans referring to themselves as irish, and closer to home even dermott o'leary, presenter of the X factor UK, says he "feels more irish".

B0X

Do you want to play football for us or something?

Gatling

If they weren't born here ,

There not Irish ,

Johnerrr

No lol B0x but you make a good point there, im pretty sure andy townsend chose to play for Ireland

nocoverart

Great song that! I like a bit of Morrissey. Rather Burgers though

JoseJones

Johnerrr wrote: »

So, Someone born & raised in england, english accent; of irish descent, maybe a parent who's irish & all 4 grandparents irish.

Does this person, iyo, have the right to say theyre Irish? Or are they just seen as brit/english to the locals upon arriving on the emerald isle, if they claimed irishness would they be deemed a "pplastic paddy"?

I can think of a few examples: celtic fans in scotland waving irish tricolours at matches, irish-americans referring to themselves as irish, and closer to home even dermott o'leary, presenter of the X factor UK, says he "feels more irish".

They will be called a plastic paddy and they will be called a brit but the criteria for being Irish is not purely that you are born here. Much more to it than that.

There was a thread on this recently too and I said the same thing, if I had kids born in the UK I would still like to think of them as being Irish.

stretchdoe

..this i'm made of,

there is no-one on earth i'm afraid of.

shootie

Morrissey reference. I like it son.

One of the reasons Ireland is a free republic (well, depending on your opinion on E.U influence) today is due to a man who was born in the U.S of a Spanish father.

I was born in London to Irish parents and I remember being called English here as a youngster when I claimed to be Irish. Then my young self would of course believe what I was being told and eventually people would say I was pretending to be English as I got older because I had Irish parents! In my opinion people have a right to be whatever they consider their home. This "what blood you have" or "where you were born" is a load of crap.

Johnerrr

Jose, on the UK census form there is an ethnicity section, now surely a person which I described would not be inclined to tick british instead of irish, that would be like a pakistani ticking british, its not part of their genetic make-up/ancestry.

Gatling

No no no no ,

Kids would be Brits ,

Dont care if your not born and raised here your not Irish sorry that's the way it is,
If your born and raises in england your a Brit,
Same for the stupid yanklands ,

What feeling Irish exactly got to do with it ,

Weathering

I'm poor I must be Irish

stretchdoe

As someone born and raised in Ireland, i'd say of course anyone born in England, or any other country, of Irish parentage, or with one Irish parent, has the right to call themselves Irish, if that's what they feel they are, and has as much claim to being Irish as anyone.

Procasinator

Gatling wrote: »

No no no no ,

Kids would be Brits ,

Dont care if your not born and raised here your not Irish sorry that's the way it is,
If your born and raises in england your a Brit,
Same for the stupid yanklands ,

What feeling Irish exactly got to do with it ,

They can claim Irish citizenship and nationality if their parents or grandparents are Irish citizens. So your opinion would be in disagreement with the law.

So if the question is does the person have a right to say they are Irish, the answer is yes.

stretchdoe

Gatling wrote: »

No no no no ,

Kids would be Brits ,

Dont care if your not born and raised here your not Irish sorry that's the way it is,
If your born and raises in england your a Brit,
Same for the stupid yanklands ,

What feeling Irish exactly got to do with it ,

quite troll-like, that post.

Chuck Stone

Johnerrr wrote: »

Does this person, iyo, have the right to say theyre Irish?

Yes. But then I'd support a person's freedom to call himself a Klingon if that's what he wanted.

Or are they just seen as brit/english to the locals upon arriving on the emerald isle

By a lot of people yes.

I can think of a few examples: celtic fans in scotland waving irish tricolours at matches, irish-americans referring to themselves as irish, and closer to home even dermott o'leary, presenter of the X factor UK, says he "feels more irish".

Welcome aboard I say.

Gatling

Procasinator wrote: »

They can claim Irish citizenship and nationality if their parents or grandparents are Irish citizens. So your opinion would be in disagreement with the law.

So if the question is does the person have a right to say they are Irish, the answer is yes.

Citizenship be claimed by half of nigera and Poland still doesn't mean there Irish except on a piece of paper ,at the last citizenship ceremony there was interviews of various nationalies now Irish ,all said then same thing I always felt Irish for a long time ,
So what is feeling Irish

Dingle_berry

Gatling wrote: »

If they weren't born here ,

There not Irish ,

My younger sister were born abroad to Irish parents. My older siblings were born in Ireland. My parents moved back here 20 years ago, so the two of us born abroad were pretty much raised here. All of us at least went through secondary and tertiary education here.
By your definition my older siblings who speak no Irish, haven't lived here for years and don't intend to are more irish than the two of us that identify most strongly as Irish, are still contributing to the Irish state and society. All because of where we were born. Incidentally the only citizenship we can claim is Irish as our parents are Irish and we didn't spend more than 8 years in the country we were born in.

Your birthplace or citizenship don't identify you as Irish. I'd say fitting in to Irish society and contributing to it make you Irish. Having Irish ancestry (whether that's a parent or great grandparent) makes you of Irish descent or something similar.

stretchdoe

Gatling wrote: »

Citizenship be claimed by half of nigera and Poland still doesn't mean there Irish except on a piece of paper ,

If you're an Irish citizen, you're Irish.
The Republic of Ireland is a country, one whose inhabitants exist, currently, due to an influx of people from various places in the world.
You seem to be mixing up nationality and race.
Someone of Nigerian parentage, for instance, who holds Irish citizenship, is just as Irish as you.

JoseJones

Gatling wrote: »

Citizenship be claimed by half of nigera and Poland still doesn't mean there Irish except on a piece of paper ,at the last citizenship ceremony there was interviews of various nationalies now Irish ,all said then same thing I always felt Irish for a long time ,
So what is feeling Irish

You're contradicting yourself. You say that you are only Irish if you are born here. Then you say half of Poland and Nigeria claim to be Irish (because they are born here presumably), but under your rules then they are Irish no? They are born here.

Gatling

stretchdoe wrote: »

If you're an Irish citizen, you're Irish.
The Republic of Ireland is a country, one whose inhabitants exist, currently, due to an influx of people from various places in the world.
You seem to be mixing up nationality and race.
Someone of Nigerian parentage, for instance, who holds Irish citizenship, is just as Irish as you.

My post was unfinished I edited it, as I said multiple nationalities now Irish ,some when asked how does it feel to be Irish ,I felt Irish for a very long time ,
So what is feeling Irish

Non national's can claim citizenship here after 5 or 7 years if I remember correct ,

Its entitles them to and Irish passport and welfare and so on

Popinjay

I'm in Australia with an Australian missus who has an Irish dad.

When we have kids, they will be three-quarters Irish. They'll be born in Australia and raised in Australia, so as far as I'm concerned, my kids will be Australian. If there is any patriotism, I will expect and encourage them to display it towards their Australian homeland.

I will, of course, teach them about their Irish heritage and would hope that they would embrace this and be proud of it, to an extent (insofar as nationality or birthplace is anything to be proud of). The non-irish ancestry on their mother's side will be dutch. I don't know much about dutch history myself but I will also try to teach them about this, insofar as I can.

But, they will always be Australian, just like no matter how long I live here (eligible - and applying for - Australian citizenship in October), I will always be Irish.

My kids might see things differently when they're older, but see Dara O'Briain's bit about 'I love my English son'.

Edit for clarity: My missus identifies as Aussie and loves winding up her filthy paddy fiance.

December2012

Havin the craic like.

stretchdoe

Gatling wrote: »

My post was unfinished I edited it, as I said multiple nationalities now Irish ,some when asked how does it feel to be Irish ,I felt Irish for a very long time ,
So what is feeling Irish

I don't know what 'feeling' Irish is, exactly; it might mean different things to different people.
What i meant to convey is that if one wishes to be Irish, and has a claim to it, then of course they're Irish.

Gatling

For instance my grandparents would have been born around 1911 if i remember correctly while the country was under British rule , so some people could say my/a lot of grand parents were British ,which was said while living in the UK stupid as it sounds

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

If they weren't born here ,

There not Irish ,

Simplistic little world view you have there. What if you're born elsewhere, but grow up in Ireland? If I were born in Paris while my parents were on a little romantic break there, am I not Irish?

I was born in England and lived there until I was 10, when I moved to Ireland. My mam is English and my dad is Irish. I consider myself equal parts English and Irish and I don't see how anyone could really dispute that.

celticwe

Gatling wrote: »

If they weren't born here ,

There not Irish ,

they're:o

Chuck Stone

celticwe wrote: »

they're:o

celticwe wrote: »

When your submitting everything

you're

Doncha think that when your going two correct other peoples apostrophisationalism's ewe should bee good at it yerself?

BBDBB

yeah, lets get all picky and divisive over where someone was born and who their parents and even grandparents were, thats a fair and just measure of people :rolleyes:

philologos

Johnerrr wrote: »

So, Someone born & raised in england, english accent; of irish descent, maybe a parent who's irish & all 4 grandparents irish.

Does this person, iyo, have the right to say theyre Irish? Or are they just seen as brit/english to the locals upon arriving on the emerald isle, if they claimed irishness would they be deemed a "pplastic paddy"?

I can think of a few examples: celtic fans in scotland waving irish tricolours at matches, irish-americans referring to themselves as irish, and closer to home even dermott o'leary, presenter of the X factor UK, says he "feels more irish".

British but ethnically Irish.

The same for any other immigrant group. For example second generation from Pakistan raised in Britain, British but ethnically Pakistani.

CaraMay

IMO you shouldn't be called Irish if you weren't born here or have never lived here. There is more to brung Irish than having a passport - it's a mentality. So the yanks who have 1 Irish great granny aren't Irish, they are American. Dunno how dermot o'leary can describe himself as Irish. There sure are a lot of wannabes out there.

Sunnyisland

My elder brother & sister were born in London to Irish parents, They were brought back here when they where four months old, lived and worked here ever since,there now 54, So according to some people here there not Irish ? Must give them a ring and tell them :-)

Balmed Out

If you want to be Irishand have an ethnic, cultural or even spiritual connection then in my book you're Irish

philologos

realies wrote: »

My elder brother & sister were born in London to Irish parents, They were brought back here when they where four months old, lived and worked here ever since,there now 54, So according to some people here there not Irish ? Must give them a ring and tell them :-)

They were raised in Ireland. I'd say if you're raised in Britain then the argument starts to be clearer that one can be ethnically Irish but also British by culture simultaneously.

Peregrinus

Of course it's possible to be both British and Irish. Norn Irn is full of them.

Nationality is a cultural artefact, and quite a complex one. There is no rule that says it has to be a simple binary, that you either are or are not a member of a particular nation, or that you can only be a member of one nation.

Can you be Irish wihout being born in Ireland? Certainly. We are a nation, part of whose identity and story is defined by emigration.

dekeed

It just goes to show how much we love to label people. Labelling others, unfortunately gives US a better sense of who we are. It's ridiculous really. Don't look for logic in human behaviour...
My point?
Feel Irish... Are Irish. Great to have you aboard!
Cead Mile Failte!

CaraMay

Balmed Out wrote: »

If you want to be Irishand have an ethnic, cultural or even spiritual connection then in my book you're Irish

This is what is said by wannabes. I might feel a spiritual connection with Thailand but doesn't mean I am Thai....

Annasopra

I never understand this whole thing about arguing over who is Irish or who is not Irish.

Southern Wagon.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Of course it's possible to be both British and Irish. Norn Irn is full of them.

Nationality is a cultural artefact, and quite a complex one. There is no rule that says it has to be a simple binary, that you either are or are not a member of a particular nation, or that you can only be a member of one nation.

Can you be Irish wihout being born in Ireland? Certainly. We are a nation, part of whose identity and story is defined by emigration.

There is a difference between nationality and blood. Northern Ireland has two different ethnic groups which is based on blood and culture.

Sunnyisland

Your Irish if
you order three more drinks when the barman calls last orders
you tell someone to ‘f*** off’ when they compliment you
you use the phrase ‘f*** off’ to mean ‘are you serious?’
you answer a question with ‘you know yourself’
you drink tae (it must be ‘tae’) and eat ‘hang sangiches’ out of the boot of your car on your way to a GAA match
you take the ‘makings of a fry’ on holiday with you
you use the phrase, “I’ll do it now, in a minute.”
you use garden equipment in a sentence – ‘I had a rake of drink last night’; ‘I shovelled the dinner into me’
you think that you’ve ‘got Mass’ simply by standing outside the church talking about GAA with the auld lads
you sing ‘Olé Olé Olé’ after taking the lead in any sport
you can’t speak a word of it!


Slainte.

If Boards were alive during Italia 90, this thread would have read so differently.

R P McMurphy

BBDBB wrote: »

yeah, lets get all picky and divisive over where someone was born and who their parents and even grandparents were, thats a fair and just measure of people :rolleyes:

I think it should go by where the person was conceived not born, that seems much fairer. And for the record I am Irish and so is my sister

Red Pepper

If you were born abroad but started living in Ireland before the age of say 4, I think you can consider yourself Irish. After that it gets fuzzy.

Duck Soup

Gatling wrote: »

No no no no ,

Kids would be Brits ,

Dont care if your not born and raised here your not Irish sorry that's the way it is,
If your born and raises in england your a Brit,
Same for the stupid yanklands ,

What feeling Irish exactly got to do with it ,

A perfectly logical and reasonable point of view. And, as someone born in England of Irish parents (and with three brothers, all born in Ireland) it's a viewpoint I'm familiar with.

Irish people who tell you you're not really Irish. English people who tell you that you're not really British.

Personally, I'm glad of being neither fish nor fowl as it gives you an interesting perspective on nationalism. I have an instinctive distrust of people who trumpet their nationality above all else. It's like they want kudos for being born on a particular piece of earth. Many times, it's their finest achievement in life (have you ever noticed how many of the white power organizations are filled with what can only be called white trash?).

It makes the point to me that nationality and national identity are completely arbitrary, a simple turn of fate. That in turn makes me highly suspicious of politicians who demand that you go out and die for your particular piece of earth. You'll notice politicians' sons and daughters very rarely go out and volunteer to die for the nation.

I travel on an Irish passport because it's the one I feel most comfortable with (yes, I feel Irish) and is a lot safer than using a British one in many parts of the world.

If we're to take the strict metric for Irishness as being place of birth, we then have to acknowledge that James Connolly, Jim Larkin, Éamon de Valera, Paul McGrath and Phil Lynott were categorically not Irish. A load of Brits and a Yank.

But if a Paddy wants to call me a Brit and a Brit wants to call me a Paddy, so be it. Knock yourself out.

Red Pepper

mango salsa wrote: »

I never understand this whole thing about arguing over who is Irish or who is not Irish.

Tis far from 'mango salsa' I was raised!

Red Pepper

Red Pepper wrote: »

If you were born abroad but started living in Ireland before the age of say 4, I think you can consider yourself Irish. After that it gets fuzzy.

I think you can be much older than 4. I'd say all the way up to secondary school, but it depends where you come from. My dad is Irish and I'd visited Ireland regularly all my life before we moved over when I was 10/11, so it wasn't a massive culture shock or anything and I picked up the accent within a few months to the extent that nobody could tell I'd ever lived in England. I was considered local by the end of the first year of secondary. If you have no Irish background at all and have to learn the language on top of everything, then 10/11 might be very late and you might never feel Irish. It depends on the circumstances, really.

Duck Soup

Also not Irish: Dermot Morgan (born in England), Cyril Cusack (born in South Africa), Ronan O'Gara (born in US), Frank McCourt (born in US), The Edge (born in England), Shane MacGowan (born in England) and Johnny Logan (born in Australia).

dd972

Born in U.S, never set foot in Ireland and descendants disembarked in Ellis Island in 1852 = Irish American

Born anywhere else except the UK to Irish parents = Irish

Born a thirty minute flight away in the UK to Irish parents, holds an Irish passport, spent every summer of their lives here, grown up in and around other Irish people, fully informed of all aspects of Irish cultural and political life, both historical and contemporary = 'Brit', 'Tan', 'Wannabe', 'Plastic Paddy'

You can fluent 'as gaelige', change your name to Seosamh O'Ceallaigh, hold an honours degree in Irish history, yet there are still those who think that any sort of connection with Sasana like the hospital you were born in ( which no one chooses ) or your accent ( accents are superficial and malleable ) somehow strips you of all vestiges of Irishness.

Ironically, the people who reject you and belittle you also masturbate over Larkin, Connolly, Countess Markiewicz, Thomas Clarke, David O'Leary and Paul McGrath :rolleyes:

Duck Soup

dd972 wrote: »

Born in U.S, never set foot in Ireland and descendants disembarked in Ellis Island in 1852 = Irish American

Born anywhere else except the UK to Irish parents = Irish

Born a thirty minute flight away in the UK to Irish parents, holds an Irish passport, spent every summer of their lives here, grown up in and around other Irish people, fully informed of all aspects of Irish cultural and political life, both historical and contemporary = 'Brit', 'Tan', 'Wannabe', 'Plastic Paddy'

You can fluent 'as gaelige', change your name to Seosamh O'Ceallaigh, hold an honours degree in Irish history, yet there are still those who think that any sort of connection with Sasana like the hospital you were born in ( which no one chooses ) or your accent ( accents are superficial and malleable ) somehow strips you of all vestiges of Irishness.

Ironically, the people who reject you and belittle you also masturbate over Larkin, Connolly, Countess Markiewicz, Thomas Clarke, David O'Leary and Paul McGrath :rolleyes:

That was the one I forgot! Thomas J. Clarke, born on the Isle of Wight, moved to South Africa when he was one, set foot in Ireland for the first time when he was seven. Oh and was executed as one of the leaders of the Easter Uprising.

Gotta hate those plastics.

WoollyRedHat

shootie wrote: »

Morrissey reference. I like it son.

One of the reasons Ireland is a free republic (well, depending on your opinion on E.U influence) today is due to a man who was born in the U.S of a Spanish father.

I was born in London to Irish parents and I remember being called English here as a youngster when I claimed to be Irish. Then my young self would of course believe what I was being told and eventually people would say I was pretending to be English as I got older because I had Irish parents! In my opinion people have a right to be whatever they consider their home. This "what blood you have" or "where you were born" is a load of crap.

Unless they're an English vampire, going after Irish people for their blood, then it's a different matter entirely.