free travel

decky1

did anyone see on the front page of 'the irish mail'last week where they on about people abusing the free travel?----it costs the taxpayer 61 MILLION a year --holy jesus is everyone in the country entitled to it ? how can it be that much--it's no wonder were in the state were in. my mother +father inlaw are oap's so they are entitled to it as are every oap but how does it come to 61million?:mad::eek:

Maura74

decky1 wrote: »

did anyone see on the front page of 'the irish mail'last week where they on about people abusing the free travel?----it costs the taxpayer 61 MILLION a year --holy jesus is everyone in the country entitled to it ? how can it be that much--it's no wonder were in the state were in. my mother +father inlaw are oap's so they are entitled to it as are every oap but how does it come to 61million?:mad::eek:

They probably want to stop it and before they do it they want to put out the propaganda about it first.

Of course it does not cost that amount, how could it. Most OAP are too old to use public transport and some could not even make it to bus stops and train stations. There is not that much public transport in rural Ireland, therefore they would either have cars or do not go out at all, like my mother case.

Perhaps the unemployed are given free travel but of course that would not be equivalent to 61million. Does anyone know how many OAP there are in Ireland.

Cookie_Monster

the pass cover both OAP and disability and companions under certain circumstance. Over 700k people are entitled to them.

lots of info on it in C&T and easy to believe it costs that much
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=246

EDIT:
or this thread right here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056903488

We now,finally,appear to have an official figure for Free Travel Scheme beneficiaries...1.1 MILLION

Maura74

I am not sure about Ireland but when people with passes in UK they have to either touch it on the electronic pad before entering the bus or train station that way they know how many times elderly people use the passes.

AlekSmart

Maura74 wrote: »

They probably want to stop it and before they do it they want to put out the propaganda about it first.

Of course it does not cost that amount, how could it. Most OAP are too old to use public transport and some could not even make it to bus stops and train stations. There is not that much public transport in rural Ireland, therefore they would either have cars or do not go out at all, like my mother case.

Perhaps the unemployed are given free travel but of course that would not be equivalent to 61million. Does anyone know how many OAP there are in Ireland.

Maura74,it's far past the "Propaganda stage now,with very serious issues of governance and responsibility now surfacing.

The total figure for 2011 in terms of Free Travel Documents was c. 726,000.
The total of State Pension Age holders was c.345,000.

Therefore it is important to note that the term OAP Free Pass is no longer relevant or accurate.

When spousal and companion entitlement is taken into account the actual number of individuals who may avail of Free Public Transport is c.1,100,000.

The funding,which is capped at 2010 levels,of €76 Million is now generally regarded as no longer covering the costs of supplying Free Public Transport to c.33% of the Adult Population.

However it should also be noted that the problem is by no means specific to Ireland,as both Scotland and England have substantial difficulties with their far more recently introduced schemes.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/warning-free-bus-scheme-still-in-crisis.20084689.

One major difference between the Irish and UK schemes is that ours includes all Rail Travel,whereas the UK schemes offer only reduced rate concessionary fares on its Railway System.

Maura74

AlekSmart wrote: »

Maura74,it's far past the "Propaganda stage now,with very serious issues of governance and responsibility now surfacing.

The total figure for 2011 in terms of Free Travel Documents was c. 726,000.
The total of State Pension Age holders was c.345,000.

Therefore it is important to note that the term OAP Free Pass is no longer relevant or accurate.

When spousal and companion entitlement is taken into account the actual number of individuals who may avail of Free Public Transport is c.1,100,000.

The funding,which is capped at 2010 levels,of €76 Million is now generally regarded as no longer covering the costs of supplying Free Public Transport to c.33% of the Adult Population.

However it should also be noted that the problem is by no means specific to Ireland,as both Scotland and England have substantial difficulties with their far more recently introduced schemes.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/warning-free-bus-scheme-still-in-crisis.20084689.

One major difference between the Irish and UK schemes is that ours includes all Rail Travel,whereas the UK schemes offer only reduced rate concessionary fares on its Railway System.

Yes, this is correct about UK, passes are only for busses save for Greater London where the free travel passes can also be used on the underground as well as busses anytime. Over ground in Greater London can only be used after 9.30am., whereas buses and underground can be used at any time this was brought in about 3 years ago before that there was restriction on free travel in Greater London traveling on the underground and busses and your free travel could not be used outside the residents borough at all but they changed that also and allowed free travel just on busses outside London as well.

Free travel on bus for outside Greater London have restrictions on them ie they cannot used them until 9.am., or 9.30am., depends on the local borough, but no free train travel, which does not matter that much as if you book in advance they are good deals to be got without any free travel cards, in fact free travel passes can be a disadvantage when booking for train travel in advance as you can get some good deal fares after rush hour for about £8.00 for some parts of the UK.

I note for train travel in RoI to get any kind of deal if you happen to be traveling for some distance and the same reduces doe not apply for fares if you are traveling to a county just outside Dublin, ie short journeys.

What I cannot understand why pensioners that are residents of the 6 counties ie NI and are able to use the free travel in the RoI. Not sure if disabled people in the NI are given this concession also in the RoI.

What I note is what I have highlighted in bold above shows that is there are 345 pensioners in RoI and appears that over that amount of people are using travel passes as well, not sure if this figure takes in the NI as well. Therefore from the figure quoted above, it is not just the state pensioners in RoI that using the most travel passes.:)

Cookie_Monster

Maura74 wrote: »

Therefore from the figure quoted above, it is not just the state pensioners in RoI that using the most travel passes.:)

That's plain as day from normal experience never mind looking at the figures. It's almost at the point where an ingrown hair gets you a disability pass these days

Maura74

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That's plain as day from normal experience never mind looking at the figures. It's almost at the point where an ingrown hair gets you a disability pass these days

I do not know about that....have a look at the disable page on here and you will see that many young people are disabled and that is not a life style choice unlike having children.

My nephew got a brain hemorrhage and he was disabled for 10 years and could not drive anymore and needed someone with him when he traveled anywhere due to the hemorrhage he had short term memory problems he sadly at the age of 35. Also a lot of elderly people and sometime young people get dementia which also involved short term memory problems and sometimes it is mild and you would not know anything was wrong with people that have got that mild impairment and also maybe they have not been diagnosed with it either. This happens to people and I can assure you it is not a life style choice to get a free travel pass.

It is important not to judge the book by its cover.

rodento

This was taken a boards post in 2007

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055074616

Aherns quote is quite shocking in that it encourages older folk to tour the country for free, not just free bus and train journeys in and out of town

Historic New Era in All-Island Free Travel For Older People North and South Begins Today

Unrestricted All-Ireland Scheme Opens Up New Travel Opportunities for Tens of Thousands of Senior Citizens

An historic new era in All-Ireland Free Travel began from today with the official start of a seamless all-island, North and South, scheme that opens-up unrestricted travel opportunities for tens of thousands of older people in every part of Ireland.

To celebrate the start of the new unrestricted All-Island travel scheme, the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern T.D. and Minister for Social Affairs, Séamus Brennan T.D., today presented the first group of pensioners to qualify with their new electronic Senior Smartpass cards at Busáras in Dublin

The new scheme will allow seniors (those aged 66 and over) resident in the Republic of Ireland to travel free of charge on all bus and rail services in Northern Ireland. Likewise, seniors (over 65) in Northern Ireland will travel free on bus, rail, air and ferry services participating in the Free Travel scheme in the Republic of Ireland.

In the Republic, more than 430,000 of the 600,000 customers who are in receipt of free travel are aged 66 or over. Current annual expenditure on the scheme is more than €58 million. In the North, some 200,000 senior citizens qualify under the Concessionary Fares Scheme.

While it is not possible at this early stage in the scheme to predict the exact number of customers who will avail of the new travel scheme, an indication is that under the limited "point to point" arrangement that has existed up to now some 220,000 cross-border journeys were made each year.

The Taoiseach, Mr. Ahern, said the start of the All-Ireland free travel initiative was an historic occasion and was another example of how close North-South co-operation can deliver real practical benefits for people throughout the island of Ireland

Mr. Ahern said: "This new scheme opens up a seamless travel system that allows older people to travel anywhere on the island and I would encourage senior citizens to make full use of the new concessions to explore as much of the island as they possibly can through leisure breaks, visiting family or friends, or simply taking day trips to the many attractions the island of Ireland has to offer. I am particularly pleased that in beginning this unrestricted all-island scheme we are delivering on the commitment in the Programme for Government to introduce All-Ireland Free Travel for our older people on all parts of the island".

Maura74

Why not travel it is good for people that are disabled and pensioners they also probably spend money and would not end up getting worse with depression, therefore getting more disabled. Getting out and about helps people just from the change of scenery and environment as most have to stay at home all day long, I bet you would not like it if it happened to you.

This would give them exercise and keep in good health and save the HSE using the doctors and hospitals that they complain so much about in the UK and called bed blocking.

donegal11

It's not only the 60 million that the state loses. All the fraudulent passes are reducing potential revenue. I don't see how someone with depression on disability allowance should get a free travel or all the well of pensioners touring the country on it. All that that potential revenue lost and worse being subsidised by paying(perhaps less well off) passagers. It should be means tested both on OAP and DA travel if you can afford it why should someone else pay.

Maura74

donegal11 wrote: »

It's not only the 60 million that the state loses. All the fraudulent passes are reducing potential revenue. I don't see how someone with depression on disability allowance should get a free travel or all the well of pensioners touring the country on it. All that that potential revenue lost and worse being subsidised by paying(perhaps less well off) passagers. It should be means tested both on OAP and DA travel if you can afford it why should someone else pay.

Fraudulent free travel should be eliminated immediately. Also well off pensioners should not have passes as well, but the government will say that it will not be cost affected to do mean testing.

It is NOT a crime to be disabled or becoming a pensioner, it is NOT life style choice either unlike having children nowadays. They do not give out DLA just because you asked for it. There are lots of teats and checked before that benefit is give out to disabled people. Also when that is allowed then the free travel will be allowed as well.

It is very important that people are allowed to do as much as able body people are doing such as working and earning a living. Also they pay tax they get the extra because their cost of living is more than an able body person, they may have to have someone in when bathing or doing the housework and gardening etc. Getting out of the home is very therapeutically and you think that disabled people should not be allowed the same as able body people, WHY.

I think that this should be stopped and there is no reason why this should not be stopped.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294693/Housing-benefit-cap-Mother-demands-rehoused-exclusive-suburb-forced-2MILLION-home.html

AlekSmart

Maura74 wrote: »

Yes, this is correct about UK, passes are only for busses save for Greater London where the free travel passes can also be used on the underground as well as busses anytime. .

Free travel on bus for outside Greater London have restrictions on them ie they cannot used them until 9.am., or 9.30am., depends on the local borough, but no free train travel.

What I cannot understand why pensioners that are residents of the 6 counties ie NI and are able to use the free travel in the RoI. Not sure if disabled people in the NI are given this concession also in the RoI.

What I note is what I have highlighted in bold above shows that is there are 345 pensioners in RoI and appears that over that amount of people are using travel passes as well, not sure if this figure takes in the NI as well. Therefore from the figure quoted above, it is not just the state pensioners in RoI that using the most travel passes.:)

Sadly Maura74,you fall into the trap which most debaters of the Irish Free Travel Scheme have done....assuming that it is structured in a sustainable manner.

Your point regarding the All Ireland Free Travel availability requires some clarification.

The inter-availability is only available to holders of the Senior Smartpass (NI) or the Over 66 Free Travel Pass (Rep).

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/travel-transport-and-roads/public-transport/bus-and-coach-travel/free-bus-travel-and-concessions/60-senior-smartpass.htm

There is NO availability for Spouses/Companions of Irish Republic citizens and none for NI Spouses/Companions,simply due to that juristiction not having such a classification in the first place.

Neither is there inter-availability on Disability Passes in either direction.



The NI Senior Citizen "Concessionary Travel" (Important distinction in naming terms) scheme is applicable only to the individual Pass Holder.

A Spouse/Partner may of course,hold their own pass dependent upon qualifiying themselves.

It is also of note that only OAP's from age 65 on qualify for the concession.

Holder of the 60+ Smartpass do NOT qualify.

Senior (65+) SmartPasses are valid on cross border bus and rail services AND can also be used for free public transport journeys undertaken entirely within the Republic of Ireland. 60+ SmartPasses are neither valid on cross border services nor on journeys within the Republic of Ireland

In order for a citizen of the Irish Republic to qualify for Free Travel within Northern Ireland they must first apply for and be issued with their own Senior Smartpass,as the Irish Document (The Corn Flakes Box) is not acceptable in Northern Ireland.

The main reason for what some might regard as an excessively bureaucratic process is the NI authorities regard for the need to maintain the sustainability of their own Free Travel Scheme.

Given that their scheme is based on a very comprehensive electronic RF Card which allows for instantaneous data collection,collation and payment,they were understandably loath to accept the Republic's vague "Lump Sum every 3 months" methodology.

One of the first actual delays in the expansion of the FTS to the 32 Counties was the inability of the Republic's side to quantify exactly how many new users the NI scheme would have to fund.

The original intention was for each juristiction to simply accept each others scrip on a Flash-Pass basis.

However the NI authorities felt that having invested heavily in a hi-tech system themselves,it was counter productive and regrressive to then return to a totally manual and insecure system.

The compromise is what we now have,with NI Senior SmartPass holders using their hi-tech card as a Flash Pass on the Republics system (The NI Card is incompatible with the Southern readers....:rolleyes:) whilst the Republic,s FTS members have their own dedicated NI Smartpass.

It can be immediately noted that the NI authorities thus have immediate and accurate Free Travel usage data available in real time for the purposes of securing prompt payment.

The other Major difference in the UK and Irish schemes is the issue of funding.

As you point out,the UK National Free Travel model is funded LOCALLY by the various Local Authorities/Boroughs who mhst allocate funding from their own budgets to support the scheme.

This is causing substantial problems across England and Scotland as Local Authorities have to cut other areas of spending in order to fund the Free Travel entitlement of persons from outside their own areas.

However with Domestic Rates,Council Taxes and other Locally based revenue streams,the UK funding model is VERY different to whatever model is in iuse by the DSP.

Maura74

Thanks for explanation AlekSmart, as the UK has retirement age has gone up to 65 recently they do still provide 60+ fee travel at a fee of £10 it is supposed to be a one off fee for it, but I expect that will be a change for all people over the age 65 in 2015.
I forgot to mentioned that children up to the age of 16 and it could be 18 not sure about that though but sure that children up to 16 years old get free travel in London as well, but not the same for children outside London.

I was under the impression that central government funded the LA in UK for free travel and the LA implement the passes for their community.

Scotland will be on their own soon and probably joining the EU currency wonder how that will work out for them. Also in Scotland they fund all uni education but England does not fund this for its people.

In UK all the public transport staff and families as well friends gets free travel and there is a hell of lot of them working in public transports in UK, also the police gets free travel as well and traffic wardens. However, it is amazing it is only the pensioners and people with disabilities that the public vilifies them for getting free travel.

I remember when free travel was allowed outside Greater London borough recently and a new service from Stansted airport to Ipswich was introduced by BA,I used to use it to get to see family in Suffolk. At the beginning the coach mostly made the journey only one or two passengers in it, but as word got around that service was open for pensioners and others it got more busier and people were very happy that the service was available, however, one bank holiday weekend I wanted to use it and when I was getting on as usual I was told that the government was not going to fund them anymore to take free travel passes. This was unexpected and I had to pay full fare I had no alternative as I was halfway through my journey.

nice_guy80

I think there should be no free travel for journeys greater than 25km.

A nominal fee of €5 should be charged once its over 25km.

If you go on the train or bus half of the people are just making use of their free travel pass. Most of them could well afford to pay €5 for that journey.
AND they are taking places which are needed by people at rush hour who ARE paying