Dog is a bit "special" after he eats?

ShaShaBear

Anyone else's dog ever have what is paramount to a howling/grunting/thrashing/rolling/snorting fit after they eat?

Shadow doesn't do it all the time, usually only when he eats meat or dog treats, but sometimes after his own dried food too. It can be anything from a quick roll and grunt while he paws at his nose right down to the latest where he actually rolled around and somehow ran while lying down in circles and thrashed his head about while snorting. He just gets up when he's done, wags his tail and that's the end of it.

Vet said there's no neurological issues and he isn't allergic to anything, but can't figure out why he does it either.

ABajaninCork

Perhaps it's just something he does...

Mine goes off on a mad beard-wiping spree whenever he's eaten. He'll rush into the living room rubbing his beard against the carpet, growling all the while. He then rushes off upstairs to do the same thing. There's nothing wrong with him, but perhaps it's his breed. Our niece's Shih Tzu and my mother-in-law's old Shih Tzu did exactly the same.

JustAThought

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Anyone else's dog ever have what is paramount to a howling/grunting/thrashing/rolling/snorting fit after they eat?

Shadow doesn't do it all the time, usually only when he eats meat or dog treats, but sometimes after his own dried food too. It can be anything from a quick roll and grunt while he paws at his nose right down to the latest where he actually rolled around and somehow ran while lying down in circles and thrashed his head about while snorting. He just gets up when he's done, wags his tail and that's the end of it.

Vet said there's no neurological issues and he isn't allergic to anything, but can't figure out why he does it either.

When my dog is super happy or thrilled by something she's been given she can go a bit like this. Not for food ; but EVERY time she grabs my dads glasses case; when we've been keeping her waiting to go out; is she gets a super treat like being lifted up above head height in the sky; Thay kinda stuff. Maybe they're just being joyfull! That's what I like to think!!

mikemac1

Maybe just their own little eccentricity

Our dog won't eat if anyone looks at him, he'd growl at you if you walk past his bowl.
You could be outside at the washing line and he won't eat until you go away.
And if the sheep out in the field are looking through the gate he won't eat and he'll bark his head off to get rid of them.

He has no problem staring at you and begging when you eat your dinner though :rolleyes:

Bixy

Not quite as extreme as OP but after feeding my dog comes in and has a quick roll on the floor in front of us and then falls asleep - we have always thought it was just a sign of great contentment!

ABajaninCork

mikemac1 wrote: »

Maybe just their own little eccentricity

Our dog won't eat if anyone looks at him, he'd growl at you if you walk past his bowl.
You could be outside at the washing line and he won't eat until you go away.
And if the sheep out in the field are looking through the gate he won't eat and he'll bark his head off to get rid of them.

He has no problem staring at you and begging when you eat your dinner though :rolleyes:

Oh yes! My dog's very funny like that. So was our cat. Neither would eat if you were in the room. But the dog would never growl at you. I can even ut my hand in his bowl or shift it properly on the mat. All he'll do is wait until you're done.

ShaShaBear

Shadow's always been a bit special anyway - everything he does lends to the probability that, if he were an actual child, he'd be in a very special class (god love him )

StickyIcky

Sounds like it could be a happy celebrating.

mikemac1

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I can even ut my hand in his bowl or shift it properly on the mat. All he'll do is wait until you're done.

I think I'd lose my hand if I tried that! :pac:

StickyIcky

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Oh yes! My dog's very funny like that. So was our cat. Neither would eat if you were in the room. But the dog would never growl at you. I can even ut my hand in his bowl or shift it properly on the mat. All he'll do is wait until you're done.

Sounds like a behaviour issue to me. My dog knows when I'm eating he should ideally go away to one of his 'mats' and wait. If he doesn't I'll let him know I disprove of his hovering and staring with a gesture and a sound and he quickly goes away like he knows.

I'm the boss. I eat first. I'll feed him usually always after I eat. As long as he's well behaved, ie isn't begging or growing over food or any of that bad behaviour then he gets feed.

The rewarding his good behaviour, keeping a predictable pattern of behaviour aka consistency and never rewarding bad behaviour = a good a good dog. It's all about getting your message across with actions.

Sorry that was meant for mikemac. On the phone here clicked wrong button.

ShaShaBear

StickyIcky wrote: »

Sounds like a behaviour issue to me. My dog knows when I'm eating he should ideally go away to one of his 'mats' and wait. If he doesn't I'll let him know I disprove of his hovering and staring with a gesture and a sound and he quickly goes away like he knows.

I'm the boss. I eat first. I'll feed him usually always after I eat. As long as he's well behaved, ie isn't begging or growing over food or any of that bad behaviour then he gets feed.

The rewarding his good behaviour, keeping a predictable pattern of behaviour aka consistency and never rewarding bad behaviour = a good a good dog. It's all about getting your message across with actions.

Absolutely no amount of rigid training could stop my dog from staring at me while I eat like he's auditioning for a Dog's Trust advert :P

ABajaninCork

StickyIcky wrote: »

Sounds like a behaviour issue to me. My dog knows when I'm eating he should ideally go away to one of his 'mats' and wait. If he doesn't I'll let him know I disprove of his hovering and staring with a gesture and a sound and he quickly goes away like he knows.

I'm the boss. I eat first. I'll feed him usually always after I eat. As long as he's well behaved, ie isn't begging or growing over food or any of that bad behaviour then he gets feed.

The rewarding his good behaviour, keeping a predictable pattern of behaviour aka consistency and never rewarding bad behaviour = a good a good dog. It's all about getting your message across with actions.

Scrap that...

StickyIcky

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Absolutely no amount of rigid training could stop my dog from staring at me while I eat like he's auditioning for a Dog's Trust advert :P

Even my very well behaved and trained dog stares at me when I'm eating.

Funny thing is if I quickly look at him like I caught him looking, he'll quickly look away like he was caught.

Three years later and he still doesn't realise I can see him watching. It's like if I'm eating I'm the most interesting thing in the world.

In reality he knows after the alpha is finished eating he's probably going to get fed and doesn't want to miss out.

mikemac1

Hears the kettle

Kettle = biscuits

And so he'll stand beside the press waiting

Cute hoor

Hears what he wants to hear.
Would wander out in front of the milk lorry or tractors on the road but if you rustle a crisp bag he'll hear you at 50 paces!!

ShaShaBear

mikemac1 wrote: »

Hears the kettle

Kettle = biscuits

And so he'll stand beside the press waiting

Cute hoor

Hears what he wants to hear.
Would wander out in front of the milk lorry or tractors on the road but if you rustle a crisp bag he'll hear you at 50 paces!!

When I read things like this I laugh so much, and here's me thinking my dog was actually different from other dogs. We actually have to spell biscuit (we used to spell biccie but he knows what we're spelling now) because he will come tearing from wherever he is and promptly switch to starved, battered and weather-beaten mode :rolleyes:

borderlinemeath

I did have a dog here that came with his bed and his teddy. When he finished his dinner he would get his teddy and give it a good shake and throw about. Only after his dinner. No other time.

DBB

StickyIcky wrote: »

In reality he knows after the alpha is finished eating he's probably going to get fed and doesn't want to miss out.

Dogs have no concept of any social rules around us eating before they do: they do not understand it in the way you seem to think they do. Indeed, this "alpha" thing at dinnertime isn't even seen in wolves, unless there is some extreme environmental deprivation going on. Who eats first is, as it turns out, pretty meaningless to a dog in terms of any perceived social structure.
Dogs were scientifically assessed in scenarios traditionally labelled as being the dog trying to assume this so-called "alpha" status: for instance, their behaviour was assessed before and after participation in repeated tug-toy games, which some dogs were allowed to win every time. What difference was seen between these dogs, and the dogs the lost every tug-toy game? Precisely none.
The same has been anecdotally noted by many behaviourists for other so-called "alpha" behaviours, including who eats first. The difference in the behaviour of the dogs? None.
It has been shown, scientifically, that dogs will not tend to attempt to approach or steal food if they know their owner is watching: but they will if the owner leaves the room. So, where does this put the alpha argument? Surely, if the dog respected that the human must eat the food first, he would leave the food regardless of where the owner is? On the contrary, this research supports the oft-noted observation that dogs are merely responding to the rules of learning theory: "when my owner is in the room, I have learned that if I try to beg or take food, I will not be allowed. So I won't bother. However, these rules do not apply in the absence of my owner."
My dogs never, ever beg off me. But I do not act like an alpha towards them, or anything close to it. So, why do they not beg? Because they've never been taught to. It's as simple as that.

ISDW

I find this notion of having to eat before the dogs to show them who is in charge intriguing. Anybody that works their dogs will always attend to their dogs' needs before their own. The big sled dog races have just finished in the U.S., the 1,000 mile races and all of the mushers feed their dogs, rub them down, get their bedding sorted before they do anything for themselves, sometimes this means the dogs eat and the musher doesn't, or just grabs a cold snack. I don't think that any of the dogs believe themselves to be the 'alphas' in that relationship, the dogs and human work together, the same as working sheep dogs, police dogs, search and rescue.

Sorry OP, no advice for you, except maybe video it and stick it up for us to see?:p

Pinklady11

My dog used to go on a mad one after eating. He'd be running around, growling, barking playing with toys. We called it his "full belly tricks"!

He doesn't do it so much any more but what he does now is when his food is put down for him, he barks at it! I have no idea why. He does it with any treats he gets too. Throws them around and hops around them barking and then he suddenly dives in and devours it!! Funny to watch!

StickyIcky

DBB wrote: »

Dogs have no concept of any social rules around us eating before they do: they do not understand it in the way you seem to think they do. Indeed, this "alpha" thing at dinnertime isn't even seen in wolves, unless there is some extreme environmental deprivation going on. Who eats first is, as it turns out, pretty meaningless to a dog in terms of any perceived social structure.

Hi there. Interesting I thought there was an 'alpha' thing in the dog world/mentality. Have you a link to where I can read more about this research. I'm always keen to learn more.

DBB wrote: »

Dogs were scientifically assessed in scenarios traditionally labelled as being the dog trying to assume this so-called "alpha" status: for instance, their behaviour was assessed before and after participation in repeated tug-toy games, which some dogs were allowed to win every time. What difference was seen between these dogs, and the dogs the lost every tug-toy game? Precisely none.

Again interesting, I thought if you let a dog win etc over and over they'd get the gist they were stronger than you and hence more alpha or leader than you. Again more info on this would be appreciated, if it's not too much bother.

DBB wrote: »

It has been shown, scientifically, that dogs will not tend to attempt to approach or steal food if they know their owner is watching: but they will if the owner leaves the room. So, where does this put the alpha argument?

I've trained my dog not to take food even if I'm not in the room. The only time he seems to take food if the odd time, maybe 2-3 times in the past few years I've had to leave him alone for about 8-10 hours. I take it as at this stage he's fairly sure that I've abandoned him and he's had to fend for himself I dunno. He used to take things, but of course I trained him that if food is left lying around, say on the coffee table, or some easily accessable place, and I'm out of the room it doesn't mean it's his. This doesn't really have anything to do with the alpha arguement, it just goes to support your point of it being learn't behaviour.

DBB wrote: »

Surely, if the dog respected that the human must eat the food first, he would leave the food regardless of where the owner is?

Well if the dog saw the food lying around perhaps he assumes you've done with it and your not going to eat it. Hence it's scraps and he can scavenge it for himself, so this point I dunno about, it's a bit sketchy. Not saying I disagree with you, just that this point could go either way really. I don't know what the dog is really thinking.

DBB wrote: »

On the contrary, this research supports the oft-noted observation that dogs are merely responding to the rules of learning theory: "when my owner is in the room, I have learned that if I try to beg or take food, I will not be allowed. So I won't bother. However, these rules do not apply in the absence of my owner."
My dogs never, ever beg off me. But I do not act like an alpha towards them, or anything close to it. So, why do they not beg? Because they've never been taught to. It's as simple as that.

I agree with you my dog doesn't beg because I trained him not to. Perhaps the same way an alpha dog would train the lesser dogs? If the alpha dog theory is true or not. Hence why I asked for more info at the beginning.

Anyway you made an interesting post and some interesting points, enough for me to now go an warrant a google on this whole 'alpha dog' thing that I've believed all along, so fair play and happy st patricks day btw

DBB

Lol, Happy St. Patrick's Day to you too, and good for you, you are keeping an open mind!
I'm on my phone now, but will link you to that research tomorrow when I'm on the laptop. In the meantime, a great starter resource us http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.co.uk, written by some seriously respected dog rescue, welfare, behaviour, and training organisations.
A book I can highly recommend, which gathers all the research between its covers, is John Bradshaw's "In Defence of Dogs". It's super.
If I forget to link you to that research, nag me!

Whispered

DBB wrote: »

John Bradshaw's "In Defence of Dogs".

This is a fantastic book and one I recommend to every single dominance trainer/owner I have met. (funnily I have had one recently refuse to read it ) It explains in very clear and interesting ways exactly why we are mistaken when we assume behaviour stems from the want for control.

Very highly recommended!

(although maybe if I subscribed to the dominance way of doing things I wouldn't be hanging off the couch while the two dog are very comfy taking up most of it )

StickyIcky

Nag?? I'm going to be on you like a dog on a bone! Nah seriously thanks for the linkage.

Of course I have an open mind I'm an atheist!

Writing on the phone is a P.I.T.A so I'll let you away with not writing me a novel on this occasion. I need to head to me bed too soon, so will bookmark this in my doggy folder and leave it open on my computer too so it's staring me in the hungover face tomorrow lest I forget. Will quickly email myself the book title too. Am very interested in learning new ways of training. I've already trained my dog so he's super well behaved but poor blighter I may have been using some 'alpha' dog mentality on him. But hopefully this helps us both going forward.

I only noticed your a mod here after I ever so slightly cheekily inferred you back up your claims of scientific evidence with proof. (sorry that's again the atheist coming out in me.) Point is if you're a mod I guess you know what you're talking about, have researched this stuff heavily and are not throwing 'facts' around like some (myself included) do from time to time.

Anyway.. rambling... headache ever so slightly coming on already... knew this was coming.. Whhhhyyyyy do I do it anyway?

ShaShaBear

StickyIcky my dog gets fed first, walked first, cuddled first, sleeps on the couch, does a triple spoon under the duvet with myself and OH every night in bed, is let out on demand every time he thinks he *might* need to go to the toilet and, despite never being taught, has put together his "speak", "sit" and "paw" routine to perform a rather fantabulous begging routine.

But if we raise our voice so much as a minute amount (for example when he spots a cup of tea left precariously alone on the floor while someone needs to use the bathroom) and you say "Shaaaaadow?", his ears will drop, tail goes down, and he'll slink towards you ever so sorry and pulls his very best baby face, which looks something like this :

(The Alpha of Butter-Wouldn't-Melt )

fatmammycat

That fecking 'Alpha' thing will never die will it? No dig at you Sticky Icky, but it's outdated tripe based on a study of captive wolves. If you get a chance have a look through some of the talks given by Dr Ian Dunbar on dog training, there's loads up on youtube, very informative.

I'm the resource queen in my relationship with my dog; food, treats, affection, exercise, everything comes through me and as a result he tries very hard to keep me on side. He doesn't beg either as he is never fed from the table. He usually snoozes when we eat. That being said, I wouldn't leave food out where he could reach it- it certainly wouldn't last long.

ISDW

One day last week I was making a sandwich, two dogs decided to play a little bit too aggressively, I turned away to sort them out. Darcy stole half of my sandwich While I was getting it back off him, (not to eat obviously, just because he shouldn't have it), Diesel took the opportunity to take the tub of Flora off the work surface and outside!

yet I can sit eating my dinner on a tray in the living room, and none of them bother me at all.

Gotta love huskies.

DBB

StickyIcky wrote: »

I only noticed your a mod here after I ever so slightly cheekily inferred you back up your claims of scientific evidence with proof. (sorry that's again the atheist coming out in me.) Point is if you're a mod I guess you know what you're talking about, have researched this stuff heavily and are not throwing 'facts' around like some (myself included) do from time to time.

Errr, I wouldn't bet on it!
Moderators can talk just as much sh*te as anyone else, and when we're posting in a non-mod capacity, we are and should be just as open to explaining what we say as anyone else is. My behavioural nerdiness is not particularly related to my being a mod

Anyway, here goes with the links to some light reading for you, some of the research papers which have contributed towards what we know about where dogs are coming from. The science of dog behaviour has developed hugely in the past 15 years, this research has seriously backed up the trainers and behaviourists, and owners, who use hands-off, evidence-based approaches to the way they train dogs.

Golden Retrievers measured for dominant behaviour after being allowed to win, or lose, tug games (co-authored in 2001 by none other than John Bradshaw, author of the aforementioned "In defence of Dogs":
http://www.music-ir.org/mirex/abstracts/2012/CW1.pdf

Dogs steal food in the dark, but not in the light:
http://www.alphagalileo.org/AssetViewer.aspx?AssetId=71985&CultureCode=en

Dogs beg from people who show attentional cues:
http://familydogproject.elte.hu/Pdf/publikaciok/2004/gacsiMVTCS2004.pdf

and
http://familydogproject.elte.hu/Pdf/publikaciok/2004/viranyiTGMCS2004.pdf

While you're at it, the scientists at the Family Dog Project in Budapest are world leaders in dog cognitive skills, and a huge amount of their research is available free at the "Publications" link on http://familydogproject.elte.hu/publications.html

That said, there is some fantastic work in this field being carried out in the UK, Austria, and the US too.

gimmick

ISDW wrote: »

One day last week I was making a sandwich, two dogs decided to play a little bit too aggressively, I turned away to sort them out. Darcy stole half of my sandwich While I was getting it back off him, (not to eat obviously, just because he shouldn't have it), Diesel took the opportunity to take the tub of Flora off the work surface and outside!

yet I can sit eating my dinner on a tray in the living room, and none of them bother me at all.

Gotta love huskies.

Sounds like you got played!