Performance Enhancing Drugs

fightireland

A lot of talk this week focused on GSP and various other fighters using Performance Enhancing Drugs. On top of that there are the numerous elite level fighters who are taking TRT legally but under questionable circumstances (bogus exemptions/prior steroid abuse). I firmly believe this is threatening the legitimacy of the sport.

Now this is not simply pre-fight hype from the Diaz camp, this is a serious story, Dana White was questioned at length by what sounded like some well informed folks at yesterdays Media Scrum. Watch Here >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Etj2erzUr70

Several recent incidents have really copper-fastened my feelings on this:

• Sport in general is at a cross-roads, The Fuentes Case/Operacian Puerto has blown the cover on doping on 'main-stream' sports in Europe (La Liga, Basketball, Athletics, Cycling). Riddled.
  
• Lance Armstrong Case: The reality that governing bodies will cover up the trespasses of their athletes make to protect their sport.
  
• John Kavanagh's remark on the MTV/McGregor Documentary: (Rough Quote apologies John>>>) "There is a trend in MMA to stop learning once fighters reach a certain skill level and instead move to adding more and more muscle and increase endurance." A real eye opener for me, completely congruent with the rise in PEDs in MMA.
  
• The percentage of elite level MMA fighters currently on TRT.
  
• Dana White's promise to "rid UFC of TRT cheat"

I really want to stress that this is not MMAs problem, at all. All sports are implicated and the problem is far more worrying in soccer for example. Believe or not our beloved Barcelona have serious questions to answer re: blood doping.

Secondly I have no interest in discussing/accusing any fighter of taking PEDs or cheating, what I want to talk about is the culture, is it acceptable is it a problem.

El Guapo!

In no way is it acceptable, in my opinion.
It's cheating, plain and simple.

No matter what the sport is, the whole aim is putting one competitor against the other and seeing who is the best. People using PEDs or TRT or whatever is just then trying to gain an unfair advantage over their opponent. Why should one guy be able to just take a few pills or inject himself in the arse and gain an advantage over a guy who does everything by the book and trains as hard as possible?
An its not just mma. Whether its football, tennis, cycling, or tiddlywinks, its supposed to be man against man, woman against woman. But PEDs etc take away from the sport and only leaves questions at the end. Would he really have won if he wasn't juicing etc....

Some people, like Joe Rogan, say "Let everybody juice. That way its back to a level playing field if everyone is allowed do it."
But sport is there for entertainment, and this adds absolutely nothing to the entertainment value of the sport in question. There's no difference for the spectator except maybe the spectacle of seeing two guys juiced up to the eyeballs going at it.
I don't know anybody that wants to watch that. I know I certainly don't.
I watch the sport for the love of the sport itself, and I want to see great athletes competing at the top of their game to see who's the best. As I said, if they're all juiced up, it leaves too many questions at the end. I'd rather watch a sport in its purest form possible.

As for TRT, I've voiced my opinions on this many times before in this forum and I won't go into detail on it again, but I'm totally against it.
Why should a guy be able to basically 'top up' his testosterone to normal levels? (Before anybody jumps down my throat and says that's not a fair description of TRT, I know but it's basically the jist of it albeit very simplified).
If a guys test ratio has fallen below normal levels.....tough luck. Either continue on fighting the way you are--all natural, or quit fighting if you can't handle it.
I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but its the way I feel about it. No matter what way you phrase it, the athlete is still getting outside help in the form of drugs to boost the condition he's naturally in. And let's not forget, the reason he needs TRT could possibly be because of prior steroid use. It could also be any number of genuine illnesses/ailments but as I said...that's life, and I'm afraid you'll just have to play with the hand you've been dealt.

cowzerp

El Guapo! wrote: »

gain an advantage over a guy who does everything by the book and trains as hard as possible?

Let's make this clear, In most cases it is by the book, Is the book wrong? I believe so but most these fighters are within the rule book and that's very important.

So whatever way you look at it, It's not Cheating if within the rules.

This thread is asking for trouble so please stick to the charter lad's

El Guapo!

cowzerp wrote: »

Let's make this clear, In most cases it is by the book, Is the book wrong? I believe so but most these fighters are within the rule book and that's very important.

So whatever way you look at it, It's not Cheating if within the rules.

This thread is asking for trouble so please stick to the charter lad's

Yeah I agree 100%.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying anyone availing of TRT is cheating. They're not cheating because its totally legal and within the rules. I was just saying in my mind it isn't really fair, and as you say Cowzer, the rules need to be changed.

garhjw

Unfortunately doping has been an issue in sports going back 50 years or more. The big problem is that serious steps to take it only started recently so the dopers have a big head start. The other problem as I see it is the culture that some athletes think it is acceptable.

My father was involved in free style and Greco roman wrestling in the uk in the 60s. Even at that level, he knew guys were doping to get an advantage. In some quarters, doping has been institutionalised and that the big issue to be addressed

Clive

El Guapo! wrote: »

As for TRT, I've voiced my opinions on this many times before in this forum and I won't go into detail on it again, but I'm totally against it.
Why should a guy be able to basically 'top up' his testosterone to normal levels? (Before anybody jumps down my throat and says that's not a fair description of TRT, I know but it's basically the jist of it albeit very simplified).
If a guys test ratio has fallen below normal levels.....tough luck. Either continue on fighting the way you are--all natural, or quit fighting if you can't handle it.
I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but its the way I feel about it. No matter what way you phrase it, the athlete is still getting outside help in the form of drugs to boost the condition he's naturally in. And let's not forget, the reason he needs TRT could possibly be because of prior steroid use. It could also be any number of genuine illnesses/ailments but as I said...that's life, and I'm afraid you'll just have to play with the hand you've been dealt.

I have to ask El Guapo do you feel this way about all therpeutic use exemptions or just TRT? Yes there is a problem in MMA of athletes using it for reasons that are not in keeping with the spirit of TUEs but do you honestly feel a cancer survivor should just "play the hand they're dealt"? A diabetic? An asthmatic?

El Guapo!

Clive wrote: »

I have to ask El Guapo do you feel this way about all therpeutic use exemptions or just TRT? Yes there is a problem in MMA of athletes using it for reasons that are not in keeping with the spirit of TUEs but do you honestly feel a cancer survivor should just "play the hand they're dealt"? A diabetic? An asthmatic?

No not at all. It's just the TRT issue that annoys me. And the reason it really annoys me is because of the tendency for a TUE for TRT to be just handed out to everyone and anyone. It seems to be a system that is open for abuse and needs to be sorted ASAP.

El Guapo!

As I said its mainly the scope for abuse of the TUE system that annoys me and it seems to be only in the last couple of years that this is coming to light. How come before maybe two years ago, the use of TRT was never really heard of, but all of a sudden everyone needs it.

Also, the following is taken from the WADA website and is part of the criteria needed to be granted a TUE:

The Use of any Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method to increase “low- normal” levels of any endogenous hormone is not considered an acceptable Therapeutic intervention.

Now I could be totally mis-interpreting this, but would that quote not rule out TRT as an acceptable therapeutic intervention? And therefore, if the UFC are following the rules outlined by WADA, then TRT should not be allowed at all?
As I said, I could be way off with that interpretation so if I am, I apologise and please tell me where I've gone wrong.

UncleChael

fightireland wrote: »

the problem is far more worrying in soccer for example.

Then post this in the Soccer forum.

El Guapo!

UncleChael wrote: »

Then post this in the Soccer forum.

The issue is still relevant in mma, and the OP is talking about how it affects mma, so this is the perfect place to post it.

UncleChael

Lets not get bogged down on locations Mr.Rutten, TRT is legal in mma and that's it for the foreseeable future.

fightireland

UncleChael wrote: »

Lets not get bogged down on locations Mr.Rutten, TRT is legal in mma and that's it for the foreseeable future.

You brought up the locations??? In fact it was your only point initially we now know you support TRT, I disagree but respect your opinion in the strongest terms.

But what insider knowledge do you have to make a statement that TRT willl remain in MMA for the forseeablable future? In fact, the most influential person in MMA is actually looking to curtail it's use?

I also fully respect whatever rules govern the sport, it does not mean I agree with them, I find it hard to believe that you could support something simply because it is in the rule book. For me it's about right and wrong. It's not about legality.

Although when I think about it legally, an organisation that could be seen as supporting a culture where athletes undertake procedures to alter their natural hormonal functions or the constitution of their blood which has obvious potentially fatal circumstances is on shaky ground. Couple that with any legal argument on the parity and it begs even more questions.

I think when I started the thread I was hoping to get a sense of whether people where generally worried about the rise of TRT and PEDs in MMA. Cowzerp I know your not too keen for this stuff to be on the forum so I'll happily leave it at that.

El Guapo!

fightireland wrote: »

I think when I started the thread I was hoping to get a sense of whether people where generally worried about the rise of TRT and PEDs in MMA. Cowzerp I know your not too keen for this stuff to be on the forum so I'll happily leave it at that.

I'd hope Paul could leave the thread open. It's a really interesting topic and I'd love to hear other people's opinions on it and arguments for and against it.
And I'd like to think people in the forum could have a proper discussion on it without it heading down the slanderous "he's juicing" type posts that normally ruin threads like this. But if closing it is for the best then so be it.

El Guapo!

El Guapo! wrote: »

Also, the following is taken from the WADA website and is part of the criteria needed to be granted a TUE........

Anyone know what the story is with the piece I quoted in that post?
Did I misinterpret it?
I know Mellor is usually well up on this type of stuff so maybe he'll know.

Mellor

El Guapo! wrote: »

Now I could be totally mis-interpreting this, but would that quote not rule out TRT as an acceptable therapeutic intervention? And therefore, if the UFC are following the rules outlined by WADA, then TRT should not be allowed at all?
As I said, I could be way off with that interpretation so if I am, I apologise and please tell me where I've gone wrong.

I think when says its not suitable to increase "low-normal" test levels, it means that low-normal refers to people with levels which are at the low end of the normal range. Eg if the normal range is 10 - 40, a level of 12 or so wouldn't qualify as, even though its on the low side, as it's within normal ranges.
Or at least that's my reading of it.


PEDs are a huge problem in sport, every sport, MMA has never been any different.

I fully believe TRT is being abused right now. Through dubious exemptions, (Belforts exemption was very dodgy) and also poor monitoring during treatment, but that's the fault of ACs doing a poor job administering TUEs. People with "genuine" illness shouod be granted TUEs, just like cancer survivors, asthma suffers, or any other illness.

El Guapo!

Mellor wrote: »

I think when says its not suitable to increase "low-normal" test levels, it means that low-normal refers to people with levels which are at the low end of the normal range. Eg if the normal range is 10 - 40, a level of 12 or so wouldn't qualify as, even though its on the low side, as it's within normal ranges.
Or at least that's my reading of it.

Yeah that makes sense. You're probably right on that. I wasn't sure if I was understanding that ruling properly. Cheers.

fightireland

Came across this today: VADA want in.

"On 2/16/13, VADA sent a proposal to the UFC addressed to Lorenzo, Dana and Frank that VADA would help them set up a state-of-the art PED program with unannounced random testing for blood and urine. We indicated that there would be no adminsitrative charges at least for the first year. This would include education courses. We would use a WADA-accredited lab, certified doping collection officers and the results would go to the fighter, the UFC, the ABC/the official MMA record-keeper for the ABC, and the commission where the fighter held a license. I believe the UFC would save money, improve public confidence that fighters are competing clean, injuries would be less with fighters competing less on PEDs, and overall safety would improve. We also mentioned that although VADA no longer has THC in our testing panel, we would include it at their request. The testing would include EPO, hGH, CIR. To date, we have had no response, but we remain happy to discuss"