Pope Francis 1

C.K Dexter Haven

Interesting that he's a Jesuit. I wonder what impact that may that have on his reign.

He's someone who lives out the religious life who doesn't live in a Palace. He's obviously taken a vow of poverty given he's a Jesuit, and is widely associated with helping the poor.
I wish him well- very interesting times.

Lovely Bloke

Is this the "Black Pope"?

pwurple

Why the '1'? Surely it's just Pope Francis, until there is a Francis II.

Plowman

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C.K Dexter Haven

pwurple wrote: »

Why the '1'? Surely it's just Pope Francis, until there is a Francis II.

Talk to Bloomberg so

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-13/argentina-s-cardinal-jorge-bergoglio-is-elected-pope-francis-i.html

Oh, and the Donegal Daily

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2013/03/13/new-pope-revealed-cardinal-bergoglio-from-argentina-pope-francis-1/

Don't suppose you have an opinion or are you just here to be pedantic with my thread title?

pwurple

Rte had it as well, the 'I', but the beebs and sky had it the other way, no number...

Just interested, and asking a question. Maybe my question mark didn't make that clear though.

Plowman

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toomevara

Interesting choice,a prole from the wrong side of the tracks and utterly unassociated with vatican/curia intrigue. I wish him well. Incidentally, i was reading his Biog on the vatican site and it says he's an 'ordinary for the eastern rite' in Buenos Aires. Anyone clarify what this means?

homer911

Being a Jesuit I would love to see him shun the excess trappings of the role. Time will tell..

starskey77

did anyone pick up on brian dobsons astonishment at pope francis
being a jesuit i dont get the whole jesuit thing are they right wing

secman

Just what the catholic church needed , a 76 year old. Youth policy ! Will they ever learn ? Practicing catholic are leaving in droves , young people do not go to church, running out of priests, and they elect a 76 year old.
obviously happy the way things are going !
Was at mass last Christmas and church was bout 25% Full and age profile was 50ish upwards. How Rome expects to impact on the demise of the church with their recent choice of popes is beyond
Me. The only thing the last pope will be remembered for is that he resigned,

casey junior

[QUOTE=C.K Dexter Haven;83652252
He's someone who lives out the religious life who doesn't live in a Palace. He's obviously taken a vow of poverty given he's a Jesuit, and is widely associated with helping the poor.
.[/QUOTE]
=====================


The rot is in already.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/jan/04/argenitina-videla-bergoglio-repentance

Plowman

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C.K Dexter Haven

Plowman wrote: »

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I would have taken it as Francis Xavier, founder of the Jesuits.

lmaopml

He seems like a lovely man...I was really chuffed have to say with his balcony appearance and the prayers were heartfelt.

The choice of the name Francis could be either St. Francis of Assisi or St. Francis Xavier ( or perhaps both! ) The two are among my favorite saints, mainly because of their life stories, but also because of the absolutely beautiful prayers of both that I love. The Novena to St. Francis Xavier finished in our Parish on Tuesday evening - it's traditional to have it during Lent.

Everybody got the 'top' choices so very wrong - and to be honest, I was quite pleased.

lmaopml

C.K Dexter Haven wrote: »

I would have taken it as Francis Xavier, founder of the Jesuits.

It was St. Ignatius of Loyola that is traditionally known as the founder of the Jesuits - although St. Francis Xavier was a friend and contemporary.

Minderbinder

secman wrote: »

Just what the catholic church needed , a 76 year old. Youth policy ! Will they ever learn ? Practicing catholic are leaving in droves , young people do not go to church, running out of priests, and they elect a 76 year old.
obviously happy the way things are going !
Was at mass last Christmas and church was bout 25% Full and age profile was 50ish upwards. How Rome expects to impact on the demise of the church with their recent choice of popes is beyond
Me. The only thing the last pope will be remembered for is that he resigned,

So you expected them to forgo 2,000 years of tradition in order to improve attendance on a small island in western Europe? What aged man do you reckon will bring us all flocking back?

And I'm not sure that the church is in demise either to be honest, though Irish mass-goers are probably under that illusion, the same illusion that gives them their sense of self-importance I imagine.

C.K Dexter Haven

lmaopml wrote: »

It was St. Ignatius of Loyola that is traditionally known as the founder of the Jesuits - although St. Francis Xavier was a friend and contemporary.

Apologies, I should have used the term co- founder

http://www.jesuit.ie/content/onsite/press-releases/16-2006/107-jubilee-mass-to-mark-500th-anniversary-of-jesuit-saint

lmaopml

Minderbinder wrote: »

So you expected them to forgo 2,000 years of tradition in order to improve attendance on a small island in western Europe? What aged man do you reckon will bring us all flocking back?

And I'm not sure that the church is in demise either to be honest, though Irish mass-goers are probably under that illusion, the same illusion that gives them their sense of self-importance I imagine.

My Parish was pretty overflowing at Christmas Minderbinder, (not every Mass goer is under the impression the Church is empty ) and most weeks there is a fairly good attendance of mixed ages and genders - Although, it's one of the Churches that remains open almost all day long and there is a regular flow of people throughout the day...The Parish is a really good one though - perhaps there are some Parishes that are not quite as loved by it's parishioners.

Anyway, I'm celebrating - nothing can rain on this girls parade tonight, because I think we got a POPE whoop whoop wha hoo, and he took the name Francis - love it!

I only wish I could be in Rome to soak up the atmosphere and see all the different nationalities celebrating together, smiling, laughing, praying - it looked incredible, so exciting - the unity was lovely.

Manach

A very welcome choice of the Cardinals. He seems a man rooted in the mission of pastoral care and the sense of mission that had characterised the Church. If the momentum and interest can be maintained, then the positive on-message can cut through the media-sphere and into the hearts of people.

Cardinal Richelieu

CNBC reporting that the people of South America have waited 20 centuries for a South American Pope. So obviously CNBC have insider info that Christianity made it to South America 1500 odd years before the Spanish and Portuguese conquests.:D

Peregrinus

Trivium: First pope to have a name not previously used by any pope since Pope Lando, elected in 913. (Lando used his baptismal name; he didn't take a new name.)

Another trivium: Unless the convention is changed, he'll be Pope Francis, not Pope Francis I. He'll only become Pope Francis I if another Pope takes the name Francis in the future, and it becomes necessary to distinguish them. The last pope to have his name changed in this way was Marinus (elected 882, died 884), who became Marinus I when Marinus II was elected in 942.

donegal_man

Peregrinus wrote: »

............... Unless the convention is changed, he'll be Pope Francis, not Pope Francis I. He'll only become Pope Francis I if another Pope takes the name Francis in the future, and it becomes necessary to distinguish them. The last pope to have his name changed in this way was Marinus (elected 882, died 884), who became Marinus I when Marinus II was elected in 942.

I'm not RC so maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but wouldn't the last Pope to have his name changed like this be John Paul I?

Peregrinus

donegal_man wrote: »

I'm not RC so maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but wouldn't the last Pope to have his name changed like this be John Paul I?

Well spotted, but no. He was John Paul I from day one.

Why? Because his break with tradition was to take two names, both of which had been used before. Indeed, he took them explicitly to honour his two most recent predecesssors So he had himself proclaimed with a postnominal number, to emphasise that he was not John XXIV or Paul VII, but also to underline that, while the combination of names was new for a pope, the names themselves were not.

donegal_man

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well spotted, but no. He was John Paul I from day one.

Why? Because his break with tradition was to take two names, both of which had been used before. Indeed, he took them explicitly to honour his two most recent predecesssors So he had himself proclaimed with a postnominal number, to emphasise that he was not John XXIV or Paul VII, but also to underline that, while the combination of names was new for a pope, the names themselves were not.

Ah okay. Thanks for explaining it. One more question, I've heard the phrase "regnal number" used in relation to popes before, I take it this is shall we say discouraged in favour of postnominal number as they are not king of the church?

Benny_Cake

I can't say that I consider myself Catholic anymore, but I do hope that Pope Francis can make a positive impact. I love St. Francis of Assisi, so I'm delighted with the name (even if it was motivated by Francis Xavier, another remarkable man). At the very least the new Pope seems to be a man with a great concern for the poor who can cut through a lot of the pomp which has become associated with the Papacy. A Catholic Church which has it's current internal issues sorted out can still be a major force for good in the world so I can only pray for his success.

Peregrinus

Um. You may be overthinking that one a bit. I think they do get called "regnal numbers" with respect to popes, and the explanation is that "regnal" does not mean "having to do with a king", but "having to do with a reign". It's not only kings that reign; popes reign too. And of course you have the reign of terror. Pandemonium reigns. And, of course, pretty well anything or anyone can reign supreme.

philologos

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I can't say that I consider myself Catholic anymore, but I do hope that Pope Francis can make a positive impact. I love St. Francis of Assisi, so I'm delighted with the name (even if it was motivated by Francis Xavier, another remarkable man). At the very least the new Pope seems to be a man with a great concern for the poor who can cut through a lot of the pomp which has become associated with the Papacy. A Catholic Church which has it's current internal issues sorted out can still be a major force for good in the world so I can only pray for his success.

Interesting stuff, what would you consider yourself as now?

Benny_Cake

philologos wrote: »

Interesting stuff, what would you consider yourself as now?

Broadly Christian, but without a current home church tbh which isn't ideal as I don't think faith can be a solo endeavour. Anyway that's probably not for this thread!

Benny_Cake

secman wrote: »

Just what the catholic church needed , a 76 year old. Youth policy ! Will they ever learn ? Practicing catholic are leaving in droves , young people do not go to church, running out of priests, and they elect a 76 year old.
obviously happy the way things are going !
Was at mass last Christmas and church was bout 25% Full and age profile was 50ish upwards. How Rome expects to impact on the demise of the church with their recent choice of popes is beyond
Me. The only thing the last pope will be remembered for is that he resigned,

You might want to read up on Pope John XXIII who was 77 when he became Pope and achieved an awful lot in a few short years. The problems that the Catholic Church has been having have nothing to do with the age of the Pope.

donegal_man

Peregrinus wrote: »

Um. You may be overthinking that one a bit. I think they do get called "regnal numbers" with respect to popes, and the explanation is that "regnal" does not mean "having to do with a king", but "having to do with a reign". It's not only kings that reign; popes reign too. And of course you have the reign of terror. Pandemonium reigns. And, of course, pretty well anything or anyone can reign supreme.

LOL. Probably, like I say not Catholic just curious. I think it was because I'd heard cardinals called princes of the church that it occurred to me that the preference might not be to create the impression that the Pope is king.
Anyway, wish him the best in his new role.

Edited to amend errors caused by phone auto-correct

martinedwards

the world is changing fast.

maybe its a good thing to have a few popes with short reigns back to back so they can concentrate on one issue each?

whatever, as a non RC, I say God Bless him. He SEEMS to be a decent bloke!

J Cheever Loophole

lmaopml wrote: »

My Parish was pretty overflowing at Christmas Minderbinder, (not every Mass goer is under the impression the Church is empty ) and most weeks there is a fairly good attendance of mixed ages and genders.....

As were the four Churches in my own Parish.

My own first impressions of Pope Francis were very favourable - May God give him the strength for the road ahead.

joseph brand

lmaopml wrote: »

He seems like a lovely man....

How so?

I can just picture a battered woman, in some detective drama, being interviewed and saying, "he seemed like a lovely man".

It's usually best to do some research *cough* Jorge Rafael Videla *cough*

joseph brand

lmaopml wrote: »

My Parish was pretty overflowing at Christmas Minderbinder, (not every Mass goer is under the impression the Church is empty ) and most weeks there is a fairly good attendance of mixed ages and genders - Although, it's one of the Churches that remains open almost all day long and there is a regular flow of people throughout the day...The Parish is a really good one though - perhaps there are some Parishes that are not quite as loved by it's parishioners.

Anyway, I'm celebrating - nothing can rain on this girls parade tonight, because I think we got a POPE whoop whoop wha hoo, and he took the name Francis - love it!

I only wish I could be in Rome to soak up the atmosphere and see all the different nationalities celebrating together, smiling, laughing, praying - it looked incredible, so exciting - the unity was lovely.

Christmas eve is not a good litmus test for judging attendance. Even I had to attend, in 2011. There must have been many more like me. (atheists at the back, keeping the family happy)

Many churches have reduced the number of Sunday morning masses, so that when you go to one, you'll notice more 'bums on seats'. Not to mention importing priests from other countries.

My dad goes to mass every Sunday, and even he is at pains to admit that everyone is as grey-haired as he, albeit older and more wrinkly. One would imagine that church-goers here will be able to relate to a pope, their own age. The church has no chance of bringing back young people to its' pews. The task would be about as futile as heading up to Malin Head and beating back the waves with a hurley.

doctoremma

For the uninitiated here, can anyone describe this new fellow in a few adjectives (e.g. conservative, liberal, traditional, hardline, etc etc)?

Benny_Cake

doctoremma wrote: »

For the uninitiated here, can anyone describe this new fellow in a few adjectives (e.g. conservative, liberal, traditional, hardline, etc etc)?

I know very little of him myself, but on social issues such as poverty and so on he appears pretty progressive, almost left wing. On abortion, homosexuality and so on he articulates the traditional Catholic positions.

A friend of his was quoted as saying the he is quite moderate, but tacked conservative out of respect for the last 2 popes. The Jesuits tend to be considered fairly liberal these days, and many Latin American Jesuits were involved with the liberation theology movement. That doesn't seem to be the case for him though.

In short, I think it's difficult to answer right now. Interesting times ahead!

leedslad

He was introduced on the balcony as Francisco. Why can't we refer to him as Pope Francisco?
Why do we have to Anglify the name?

Be well and win

secman wrote: »

Just what the catholic church needed , a 76 year old. Youth policy ! Will they ever learn ? Practicing catholic are leaving in droves , young people do not go to church, running out of priests, and they elect a 76 year old.
obviously happy the way things are going !
Was at mass last Christmas and church was bout 25% Full and age profile was 50ish upwards. How Rome expects to impact on the demise of the church with their recent choice of popes is beyond
Me. The only thing the last pope will be remembered for is that he resigned,

My initial reaction was similer, an elderly Jesuist, just what was needed (not). Have to admit though, as the evening went on, I warmed to him. He seemed genuinely surprised by the reception he got from the balcony, I liked his animation after the Teutonic stiffness of Benny and JP 2's illness affecting his mobility. Whilst I would not agree with some of his views on sexuality, he does seem very down to earth and a nice man. I also like the fact that he is a complete outsider and knows what it's like to work on the ground.

Personnaly, I think he has perhaps been brought in with one thing in mind, sort out the Curia and the Vatican. It would be fascinating to see how many cardinals from the Vatican Bureaucracy voted for home.

doctoremma

Is it not safer to pick older ones? If you elect a 45 year old horror, how can you get rid of him? At least older popes means there's a better turnover?

Fanny Cradock

All the best to him. I think the honeymoon period will be short because the old spectres will soon raise their heads. Not an easy job.

doctoremma

Having done a bit of reading, I can't find too much detail on how the voting process works. Not that I need to know, I'm just nosy. Does anyone have any insight?

In my head, I am imagining a STV system. Thoughts?

And I'm also imagining some wheeling and dealing - you vote for this man and I'll give you XYZ (although I can't imagine what XYZ is - a promotion?). Somehow, this doesn't really befit the solemnity of the whole thing, but I suspect it might be intrinsic to human nature. Thoughts?

Is there a "hustings" type process? Do the candidates lock horns?

Peregrinus

doctoremma wrote: »

For the uninitiated here, can anyone describe this new fellow in a few adjectives (e.g. conservative, liberal, traditional, hardline, etc etc)?

Depends on who you get to do the describing. If you categorise someone mainly by reference to his position on question of sexual morality, this guy is fairly conservative. If, on the other hand, you are more interested in his views on broader social and economic questions, he is fairly progressive. In terms of internal church politics he's also on the progressive side - a strong critic of clericalism.

Peregrinus

doctoremma wrote: »

Having done a bit of reading, I can't find too much detail on how the voting process works. Not that I need to know, I'm just nosy. Does anyone have any insight?

In my head, I am imagining a STV system. Thoughts?

Nope. Voters just write one name on the ballot.

But there are multiple ballots, with the results announced between each one. So if it becomes apparent if your guy can't win or you go off him for some other reason, you can "transfer" your vote to another candidate by voting for him instead.

doctoremma wrote: »

And I'm also imagining some wheeling and dealing - you vote for this man and I'll give you XYZ (although I can't imagine what XYZ is - a promotion?). Somehow, this doesn't really befit the solemnity of the whole thing, but I suspect it might be intrinsic to human nature. Thoughts?

The ballots themselves are secret, so a straight if-you-vote-for-me-I-will-do-X deal is a bit risky; you can never know if he did vote for you, and conversely he can't prove that you did vote for you so your are now bound to do X. Furthermore there are explicit rules against such deals, so people can always decline to honour them by pointing out that they should never have been made in the first place.

But of course there's wheeling and dealing. Candidates their friends and supporters) speak to key influential cardinals and/or to wavering cardinals hoping to win their support - not so much with a straight deal, I suspect, as by trying to show that so-and-so really is the man you want, and actually his thinking on such-and-such is very close to yours, and his decisions would very likely be ones that you would approve of. For example, he would appoint so-and-so to such-and-such a post; don't you think that would be a good idea? Whereast that other cardinal intends to appoint whatsisname, who we all know is a complete bonehead.

There have been stories occasionally of negative commitments having been made; if you worried that I'm going to, e.g., crack down on theologians writing about such and such, stop worrying, because if elected I will not be doing that.

doctoremma wrote: »

Is there a "hustings" type process? Do the candidates lock horns?

We don't know, but really I doubt it. Where you only have 115 electors, many of whom already know one another quite well, personal relationships and personal approaches and quiet conversations between groups of two or three are going to be far more influential in the outcome than any speeches made.

Peregrinus

leedslad wrote: »

He was introduced on the balcony as Francisco. Why can't we refer to him as Pope Francisco?
Why do we have to Anglify the name?

You can call him Francisco if you like. But the last bloke didn't get called Benedetto by English speakers; nor did his predecessor get called Giovanni Paolo, so the convention of Anglifying papal names is well established.

And I believe it's followed in other countries too; the last guy was Benoit XVI in France, Benedikt XVI in Germany, etc.

Minderbinder

lmaopml wrote: »

My Parish was pretty overflowing at Christmas Minderbinder, (not every Mass goer is under the impression the Church is empty ) and most weeks there is a fairly good attendance of mixed ages and genders - Although, it's one of the Churches that remains open almost all day long and there is a regular flow of people throughout the day...The Parish is a really good one though - perhaps there are some Parishes that are not quite as loved by it's parishioners.

Anyway, I'm celebrating - nothing can rain on this girls parade tonight, because I think we got a POPE whoop whoop wha hoo, and he took the name Francis - love it!

I only wish I could be in Rome to soak up the atmosphere and see all the different nationalities celebrating together, smiling, laughing, praying - it looked incredible, so exciting - the unity was lovely.

This is precisely my point about the Irish mass-goer who seem to think the Christian faith starts and ends at their own parish church, with the occasional trip to Lourdes.

I strongly doubt the Catholic church is in remission though it is in this country.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Minderbinder wrote: »

So you expected them to forgo 2,000 years of tradition in order to improve attendance on a small island in western Europe? What aged man do you reckon will bring us all flocking back?

And I'm not sure that the church is in demise either to be honest, though Irish mass-goers are probably under that illusion, the same illusion that gives them their sense of self-importance I imagine.

I think because attendances are down in certain parts of Ireland some people assume that this is the case in the rest of the world also.

They seem to think that Ireland is the centre of the universe.

Manach

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

They seem to think that Ireland is the centre of the universe.

Just Cork, boy.

Benny_Cake

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I think because attendances are down in certain parts of Ireland some people assume that this is the case in the rest of the world also.

They seem to think that Ireland is the centre of the universe.

I accept that what people see in a given parish on a given Sunday says nothing about overall trends, but it's not just Ireland, it's the rest of Europe, North America (10% of the population of the US is a lapsed Catholic) and South America - Brazil in particular. Catholicism is still growing in Africa but it's important to avoid denying the real challenges that exist. Pope Francis has a difficult job in any case, I wish him the best with it.

Thomas The Think Engin

To whom it may concern,

There was a man of the Jesuits, named Francis, a ruler of the Catholics:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.4 Francis saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is 76 years old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (See John 3:3-7) and read on to see if Francis believes Jesus or not.

He has said himself that he choose the name from Francis of Assisi not the jesuit Francis-Xavier.
His story is that immediately after being elected he was hugged by the Brazilian cardinal who whispered to him "don't forget the poor" and that was the clincher for Francis.