wholecrop silage

TheSunderz

hi all
was planning to reseed a field or 2 this year. was just wondering would wholecrop wheat, undersown with grass be any good?? and what would be de latest date for sowing(farm would be heavy in nature).
Thanks.

epfff

never done wheat
but do a bit of oats or barley plus peas every year
latest for sowing dont know
but i usually put it in at easter as i want to get it cut to graze lambs in august
seen guys putting it in in may and not cutting much later than me

ps i much prefer to pit it with grass on top rather than bale it as i find the extra choping helps it preserve better and much less cost

Manoffeeling

Use old seed after the spring. We got 20 bags of oats, barley and wheat for little or nothing a few years back. It's a great way to bulk up feed.

49801

It grows well
Done it a good few times here and u get a very clean Sward afterwards.
One thing is to get a short straw variety as you can't use growth regulator on the wheat with the grass underneath. Last time around I sowed the grass after the wheat was emerged and rolled it and it turned out very well.


If I was doing it again I'd look into making it into alkalage with home n dry or the like if I was feeding beef animals. I know it looks expensive but the thought of a near fully balanced feed sounds very attractive and no vermin either.

Farmer Pudsey

I have done it used peas and barley however am thinking of using barly only from now on for two reasons. You cann spray for weeds with peas in the crop and if you go too heavy on the peas and barley they are hard on the grass. I think that I will go back to barley at 4 stone/acre. Also could sow barley by chain harrowing in to disced ground as opposed to have to drill in peas and barley.

I round bale it cut it at the cheesy stage about 13 weeks and let it wilt depending on the weather.If it is very hot about 24 hours if it is just dry overcast weather 48 hours. Avoid cutting and baling straight away especially wet crops.

If you sow early may you can cut in late August. Spray and let cattle eat out old sward. Apply 6K gallons slurry/acre and disc or till straight away spread barley, granlime and about one bag 10.10,20/acre harrow or till in. Spread grass seed and roll twice. Renember to use a banger to keep crows away especially if you have heavy ground and old pasture.

Spray for aphids if possible and one other thing if you bale it make sure the lad on the baler stops to drop off bales slowly on a flat part of field or at the bottom of hills as the stubble can damage the bales.

RobinBanks

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I have done it used peas and barley however am thinking of using barly only from now on for two reasons. You cann spray for weeds with peas in the crop and if you go too heavy on the peas and barley they are hard on the grass. I think that I will go back to barley at 4 stone/acre. Also could sow barley by chain harrowing in to disced ground as opposed to have to drill in peas and barley.

I round bale it cut it at the cheesy stage about 13 weeks and let it wilt depending on the weather.If it is very hot about 24 hours if it is just dry overcast weather 48 hours. Avoid cutting and baling straight away especially wet crops.

If you sow early may you can cut in late August. Spray and let cattle eat out old sward. Apply 6K gallons slurry/acre and disc or till straight away spread barley, granlime and about one bag 10.10,20/acre harrow or till in. Spread grass seed and roll twice. Renember to use a banger to keep crows away especially if you have heavy ground and old pasture.

Spray for aphids if possible and one other thing if you bale it make sure the lad on the baler stops to drop off bales slowly on a flat part of field or at the bottom of hills as the stubble can damage the bales.

This is great advice. I am reseeding a field that got badly poached last back end and the contractor asked would I put oats in with the grass seed. I hadnt a clue how to go about it. Cheers!

Farmer Pudsey

RobinBanks wrote: »

This is great advice. I am reseeding a field that got badly poached last back end and the contractor asked would I put oats in with the grass seed. I hadnt a clue how to go about it. Cheers!

Oats has one advantage over barley it will grow in lower PH ground. It laso has a slightly shorter growing period. However barley has a higher feed value so if you can get you ph right barley is the option. I would consider soil testing ground most co-op, ag consultants or teagasc can get them send away for you it is only a matter of geting the core sampler from them. However if slurry spread already not much point doing it.

Sorry I forgot in previous post that you will need about 50 units of nitrogen as well you may need more depending on how much nitrogen will be trapped by discing in the slurry this is not vitil with peas in mix as they will provide nitrogen for the crop

RobinBanks

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Oats has one advantage over barley it will grow in lower PH ground.

I will be spreading lime at the time of seeding. pH is 5.6 at the moment. So maybe Barley on a field next year when pH comes up.

49801

the advantage that wheat has over barely is that it is a good bit more forgiving than barely for PH

49801

just another thought.... with monocrops one might have the option of combining the crop if the weather comes good. but i'd always plan on direct cutting it with a self propelled. chasing bales will be hard on the sward if it is anyway moist.

Farmer Pudsey

49801 wrote: »

the advantage that wheat has over barely is that it is a good bit more forgiving than barely for PH

49801 wrote: »

just another thought.... with monocrops one might have the option of combining the crop if the weather comes good. but i'd always plan on direct cutting it with a self propelled. chasing bales will be hard on the sward if it is anyway moist.

Would be slow using wheat as it straw is too long you end up with a large bale count but a lot is straw. that is why most farmers use a barley with a short straw.

Would not combine as would have to wait longer that cheesy stage because of this you can damage grass sward. Have often considered could you plant late previous year and lightly graze however disadvantage is that you cannot spray for weeds.

How do you mean chasing bales is hard on sward. Is this from a point of wilting. Self propelled can be a no-no in as well on heavy ground.
One other thing you will need a disc mower to cut and it need to be as wide as the baler tyres unless your contractor has access to a silage rake.

49801

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Would be slow using wheat as it straw is too long you end up with a large bale count but a lot is straw. that is why most farmers use a barley with a short straw.

Agreed but barley is a lot more fickle about PH

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Would not combine as would have to wait longer that cheesy stage because of this you can damage grass sward. Have often considered could you plant late previous year and lightly graze however disadvantage is that you cannot spray for weeds.

I would not plan on a combine but it can turn out to be an option

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

How do you mean chasing bales is hard on sward. Is this from a point of wilting. Self propelled can be a no-no in as well on heavy ground.
One other thing you will need a disc mower to cut and it need to be as wide as the baler tyres unless your contractor has access to a silage rake.

chasing bales means a lot more traffic on a delicate sward surface.
you have to be sensible of course but but IMO a SPFH is less damaging

I'd far prefer to see direct cut with a self propelled with all the grain going directly into the trailers rather than leaving grain in the field.

Farmer Pudsey

49801 wrote: »

Agreed but barley is a lot more fickle about PH



I would not plan on a combine but it can turn out to be an option



chasing bales means a lot more traffic on a delicate sward surface.
you have to be sensible of course but but IMO a SPFH is less damaging

I'd far prefer to see direct cut with a self propelled with all the grain going directly into the trailers rather than leaving grain in the field.

with wilt and using rake I find that I loose very little if any grain. Only times I lost grain was when peas were too ripe or if cutting with a disc mower that was narrower than the wheeles of baler as baler had to over lap rows it founf it hard to pick up crop that was rolled over. I found that wilting improved the crop no end. My biggest isue is crows going at the bales in the yard but this is an issue with grass bales as well.

iverjohnston

If I put in arable silage, and cutting at the cheesey stage, can I use a mower conditioner, or will this cause grain losses? Or must I look for a straight disk mower?

Fermec

What is the Best Method for Sowing Arable Silage?... Ie Can you do it all together with a One Pass?...

yellow50HX

We used to do this most years as part of a re seeding program, under sow the grass seed with barly and cut it the same time as the silage, we would then mix it through th e silage in the pit. Great feeding come winter and good swhard comes afterwards.

Never tried doing it with baled silage, is there not a problem with the straw puncturing the plastic?

st1979

yellow50HX wrote: »

We used to do this most years as part of a re seeding program, under sow the grass seed with barly and cut it the same time as the silage, we would then mix it through th e silage in the pit. Great feeding come winter and good swhard comes afterwards.

Never tried doing it with baled silage, is there not a problem with the straw puncturing the plastic?

Bigger problem is rats in bales. Pit only. Friend of mine made some in bales i warned him not to but he reckoned plenty of bait would sort out the rats. Mr rat prefered the bales and destroyed them.

yellow50HX

st1979 wrote: »

Bigger problem is rats in bales. Pit only. Friend of mine made some in bales i warned him not to but he reckoned plenty of bait would sort out the rats. Mr rat prefered the bales and destroyed them.

Yeah forgot about the rats, we might do it again his year but cut it for corn and leave the grass with the stubble, the cattle will have the stubble grazed off after a few rotations. Did this about 5 years ago and were happy enough.

Farmer Pudsey

iverjohnston wrote: »

If I put in arable silage, and cutting at the cheesey stage, can I use a mower conditioner, or will this cause grain losses? Or must I look for a straight disk mower?

No you cannot cut with a mower conditioner you need a disc mower as conditioner will knock off seed heads. see earlier post about disc mower lenght.

Fermec wrote: »

What is the Best Method for Sowing Arable Silage?... Ie Can you do it all together with a One Pass?...

You cannot put grassseed and grain into hopper togeather grain needs to be 1-2'' below ground then grass seed on top.

st1979 wrote: »

Bigger problem is rats in bales. Pit only. Friend of mine made some in bales i warned him not to but he reckoned plenty of bait would sort out the rats. Mr rat prefered the bales and destroyed them.

Rats are an issue in pit or bales however if you keep poisen out they will not be an issue. It is only when it is nearly all gone and I get lazy that our furry friends get at a bale but is gone before they do real damage..

See thread about rat poisen and follow and they will not be an issue. A good trick is to have it down 2 weeks before crop is baled.

yellow50HX

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

No you cannot cut with a mower conditioner you need a disc mower as conditioner will knock off seed heads. see earlier post about disc mower lenght.



You cannot put grassseed and grain into hopper togeather grain needs to be 1-2'' below ground then grass seed on top.



Rats are an issue in pit or bales however if you keep poisen out they will not be an issue. It is only when it is nearly all gone and I get lazy that our furry friends get at a bale but is gone before they do real damage..

See thread about rat poisen and follow and they will not be an issue. A good trick is to have it down 2 weeks before crop is baled.

Used to put in the middle when doing pit silage, grass silage below and above, rats were less likely to burrow through the grass to get to it.

keep going

often put in barley as cover when reseeding and have cut it for bales with no problems except always fed it before christmas on account of the rats.easy way to do it is scatter barley with manure spreader and follow with onepass to set grass seed

iverjohnston

Could pull the old doublechop out of the back of the shed, I suppose.......:D But that would mean no wilting.

Dont be daft

What kind of yields would you expect if you undersow with grass and cut at the cheesy stage in DM?
I presume that protein would be up a lot on normal silage but what would be a normal %?

Want to start incorporating wholecrop into a reseeding plan.
If you cut the wholecrop in say August would you get much of a grazing of the grass in Oct/Nov?

Farmer Pudsey

Dont be daft wrote: »

What kind of yields would you expect if you undersow with grass and cut at the cheesy stage in DM?
I presume that protein would be up a lot on normal silage but what would be a normal %?

Want to start incorporating wholecrop into a reseeding plan.
If you cut the wholecrop in say August would you get much of a grazing of the grass in Oct/Nov?

When I used peas and barley and baled same it was very hard to get an accurate protein level however from sources it is supposed to come in about 16%+ protein, I think starch was around 11 but would have to look at figures again. The reason I am going for barly is to reduce cost of reseeding ( i will be able to do most myself) and so that I can spray for weeds at seedling stage. There is a spray for Peas/barley/grass in the UK but not approved here. If I was a bigger farmer I would consider growing peas and barley and combining and reseeding the stubblegroung. However I use the present so that for the 17-20 weeks that the ground is out of production I geta fairly good return.

The other issue I found with peas and barley was too heavy a crop ruined you grass sward. However a brilland crop and when you look at bthe figures it compares very well against maize.

yellow50HX

Dont be daft wrote: »

What kind of yields would you expect if you undersow with grass and cut at the cheesy stage in DM?
I presume that protein would be up a lot on normal silage but what would be a normal %?

Want to start incorporating wholecrop into a reseeding plan.
If you cut the wholecrop in say August would you get much of a grazing of the grass in Oct/Nov?

We used to cut in July and leave our silage late. Plenty of other fellas used to cut the arable with their cut silage, jul/aug time. Depends on what stage you want the cut it. As for the grazing the land would still be kinda soft but we would usually let the cattle back into it after afew weeks when a nice cover came. Would only let them in if it was good and dry, they would poach it if it was wet. Depending on the weather you could get another rotation to clean it off before the winter, if not we would use it for early grass for young stock the following spring.

49801

Dont be daft wrote: »

What kind of yields would you expect if you undersow with grass and cut at the cheesy stage in DM?
I presume that protein would be up a lot on normal silage but what would be a normal %?

Want to start incorporating wholecrop into a reseeding plan.
If you cut the wholecrop in say August would you get much of a grazing of the grass in Oct/Nov?

IME you just about cover the cost of the cultivations for the reseed. U would be doing very well to cover the cost of the grass seed. That is if your selling WC and paying for contractor phloughing and setting and you do fert spinning and spraying. So don't grow it to sell it. Only way it stacks up is home use only.

Dont be daft

49801 wrote: »

IME you just about cover the cost of the cultivations for the reseed. U would be doing very well to cover the cost of the grass seed. That is if your selling WC and paying for contractor phloughing and setting and you do fert spinning and spraying. So don't grow it to sell it. Only way it stacks up is home use only.

Definitely growing for home use.

I would see it as a potential way to up the protein in the finishing mix.
Tried bought in maize 2years ago. As a feed was very impressed with it but the cost of it to grow, variation in yields and the damage done getting it out is a big put off.

If WC worked well and I got a late grazing out of it I'd see it as having my cake and eating it.
We'd have a high protein winter feed,lower reseeding costs and back into grass earlier.

Am I being a bit opptomistic?

Farmer Pudsey

Dont be daft wrote: »

Definitely growing for home use.

I would see it as a potential way to up the protein in the finishing mix.
Tried bought in maize 2years ago. As a feed was very impressed with it but the cost of it to grow, variation in yields and the damage done getting it out is a big put off.

If WC worked well and I got a late grazing out of it I'd see it as having my cake and eating it.
We'd have a high protein winter feed,lower reseeding costs and back into grass earlier.

Am I being a bit opptomistic?

Like I said earlier that including pears bring two problems weeds and week sward if crop too strong.

However undersowing to barley would give extra silage will not be a any extra protein and it will be around 65DMD silage due to straw. At 4 stone/acre you should get 1.2 ton barley equivlent/acre. On a 12bale/acre this is equivlent to 100kgs of grain/bale. Along with grass a good quality feed. You could consider going pea's and barley as a crop if you could combine and crimp and get a crop in excess of 3 ton/acre.As it would be cut late july you could reseed straight away and get a grazing at the end of the year. Peas would provide enough nitrogen for the reseed. There is a spray for peas and barley. This crop should come in at around 18% protein if you have you own way of sowing it might be a runner.

49801

just toying with idea of wholecrop again so I thought i'd bring it up here rather than start a new thread.

Doing quite a bit of reseeding this spring and considering undersowing for wholecrop and freeing up 1st cut silage ground for grazing. This way we could take in more animals from the dairyman we are going rearing for sooner (with quicker income) but the consequance of that is the reseeded ground (34acres) will take longer to come back into rotation. End Sept rather than End June. But it would give us a good clean sward.
Extra costs to WC over a straight reseed are, seed, fert, spraying & harvesting comes to about 230euro/acre.

We've calculated that we need 40acres of 1st cut silage for winter to cater for the 150 weanlings we'll be feeding.
My sums suggest 1st cut costs close to 25euro/ton to pit.
150kg of 18-6-12 @450euro/ton plus 110euro for silage gang and assuming 11ton/acre yield.


So how does yield of wholecrop compare to 1st cut on a feeding point of view?
ie a weanling will consume 0.9ton/mth of silage and yield of 1st cut is 11ton/acre (10-12ton) and some stock will need 1-2kg/day of concentrates.
What would that look like if I replace with WC? would i get crippled trying to balance the feed with protien next winter?


My instinict is not to do it do as it would add to the complication trying to grow a crop as well as everything else going on. But as its a another wet evening at home I am just thinking about different options.

Farmer Pudsey

49801 wrote: »

just toying with idea of wholecrop again so I thought i'd bring it up here rather than start a new thread.

Doing quite a bit of reseeding this spring and considering undersowing for wholecrop and freeing up 1st cut silage ground for grazing. This way we could take in more animals from the dairyman we are going rearing for sooner (with quicker income) but the consequance of that is the reseeded ground (34acres) will take longer to come back into rotation. End Sept rather than End June. But it would give us a good clean sward.
Extra costs to WC over a straight reseed are, seed, fert, spraying & harvesting comes to about 230euro/acre.

We've calculated that we need 40acres of 1st cut silage for winter to cater for the 150 weanlings we'll be feeding.
My sums suggest 1st cut costs close to 25euro/ton to pit.
150kg of 18-6-12 @450euro/ton plus 110euro for silage gang and assuming 11ton/acre yield.


So how does yield of wholecrop compare to 1st cut on a feeding point of view?
ie a weanling will consume 0.9ton/mth of silage and yield of 1st cut is 11ton/acre (10-12ton) and some stock will need 1-2kg/day of concentrates.
What would that look like if I replace with WC? would i get crippled trying to balance the feed with protien next winter?


My instinict is not to do it do as it would add to the complication trying to grow a crop as well as everything else going on. But as its a another wet evening at home I am just thinking about different options.

You are pitting it what Dry matter and digestibility is your first cut also when do you cut it. If you are doing whole crop in a reseeding plan your pirority is you newly reseeded grass. So idealy you will not let Barly pass 4 stone/acre and cut it as cheesy stage about 13 weeks after sowing. I find if you do not wilt it can tend to go a bit sour at the feed barrier after two days.

If you wilt and it is about 28%-35% Dry Matter then at 12 bales/acre you would be getting about 9 ton/acre but this would include 1.2 to barley equivlent what I mean by this is that if you had a crop of barley you would ex about 3 ton/acre on good land. However you would be sowing at half rate or less so divided by 2.5 this gives 1.2 ton. However at the 13 week stage the barly would be higher in moisture and all the feed value would not have left the straw. You grass could be well over 70%DMD so an average of 65DMD would be a good guess maybe even a tad better.

Alot of pit silage is only around 20%DM as contractors will not leave it wilt long. So you have to compare like with like. My guess is that this would be right as you assume that a weanling eats 0.9 ton /month. A 300Kg weanling( good bucket fed) will consume 6kgs DM/day(2% body weight) so 180kgs/month so this translates to 20% silage DM this is without concentrates. If your wholecrop is wilted and is 30%DM a weanling will consume 20kgs.day or 600kgs/months with 13% of it grain. So in theory he will get about 2.6kgs of grain/day. Allowing for a poor crop put it to 2kgs/day

If you require to supplment him with protein the easiest would be soya about 0.5Kg/day or about 1KG of 22% protein molasses. Either of these would get yor overall diet to about 15% protein.

49801

49801 wrote: »

just toying with idea of wholecrop again so I thought i'd bring it up here rather than start a new thread.

Doing quite a bit of reseeding this spring and considering undersowing for wholecrop and freeing up 1st cut silage ground for grazing. This way we could take in more animals from the dairyman we are going rearing for sooner (with quicker income) but the consequance of that is the reseeded ground (34acres) will take longer to come back into rotation. End Sept rather than End June. But it would give us a good clean sward.
Extra costs to WC over a straight reseed are, seed, fert, spraying & harvesting comes to about 230euro/acre.

We've calculated that we need 40acres of 1st cut silage for winter to cater for the 150 weanlings we'll be feeding.
My sums suggest 1st cut costs close to 25euro/ton to pit.
150kg of 18-6-12 @450euro/ton plus 110euro for silage gang and assuming 11ton/acre yield.


So how does yield of wholecrop compare to 1st cut on a feeding point of view?
ie a weanling will consume 0.9ton/mth of silage and yield of 1st cut is 11ton/acre (10-12ton) and some stock will need 1-2kg/day of concentrates.
What would that look like if I replace with WC? would i get crippled trying to balance the feed with protien next winter?


My instinict is not to do it do as it would add to the complication trying to grow a crop as well as everything else going on. But as its a another wet evening at home I am just thinking about different options.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You are pitting it what Dry matter and digestibility is your first cut also when do you cut it. If you are doing whole crop in a reseeding plan your pirority is you newly reseeded grass. So idealy you will not let Barly pass 4 stone/acre and cut it as cheesy stage about 13 weeks after sowing. I find if you do not wilt it can tend to go a bit sour at the feed barrier after two days.

If you wilt and it is about 28%-35% Dry Matter then at 12 bales/acre you would be getting about 9 ton/acre but this would include 1.2 to barley equivlent what I mean by this is that if you had a crop of barley you would ex about 3 ton/acre on good land. However you would be sowing at half rate or less so divided by 2.5 this gives 1.2 ton. However at the 13 week stage the barly would be higher in moisture and all the feed value would not have left the straw. You grass could be well over 70%DMD so an average of 65DMD would be a good guess maybe even a tad better.

Alot of pit silage is only around 20%DM as contractors will not leave it wilt long. So you have to compare like with like. My guess is that this would be right as you assume that a weanling eats 0.9 ton /month. A 300Kg weanling( good bucket fed) will consume 6kgs DM/day(2% body weight) so 180kgs/month so this translates to 20% silage DM this is without concentrates. If your wholecrop is wilted and is 30%DM a weanling will consume 20kgs.day or 600kgs/months with 13% of it grain. So in theory he will get about 2.6kgs of grain/day. Allowing for a poor crop put it to 2kgs/day

If you require to supplment him with protein the easiest would be soya about 0.5Kg/day or about 1KG of 22% protein molasses. Either of these would get yor overall diet to about 15% protein.

So not worth bothering with then?
I would still sow crop at full rate myself. Grass will take a bit longer to thicken up but withe the cost of sprays it does not make sence to me when you'll still have to spend the same money on sprays weather it's a half rate or full rate crop

Farmer Pudsey

49801 wrote: »

So not worth bothering with then?
I would still sow crop at full rate myself. Grass will take a bit longer to thicken up but withe the cost of sprays it does not make sence to me when you'll still have to spend the same money on sprays weather it's a half rate or full rate crop

I would not bother with sprays except for Aphids. The rest of the sprays, roundup for burning off and post emergence you need for reseeding. the way I look at it if you reseed it will be 8 weeks before you get a graze for 5 extra weeks with undersown barly you get a fairly decent crop of silage.

Robson99

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Would be slow using wheat as it straw is too long you end up with a large bale count but a lot is straw. that is why most farmers use a barley with a short straw.

Would not combine as would have to wait longer that cheesy stage because of this you can damage grass sward. Have often considered could you plant late previous year and lightly graze however disadvantage is that you cannot spray for weeds.

How do you mean chasing bales is hard on sward. Is this from a point of wilting. Self propelled can be a no-no in as well on heavy ground.
One other thing you will need a disc mower to cut and it need to be as wide as the baler tyres unless your contractor has access to a silage rake.

Would you lose a lot of seed if cut with a 7ft disc mower and got the contractor to then rake it. Have a 7ft mower but would want 8ft to be as wide as the baler.

td5man

Robson99 wrote: »

Would you lose a lot of seed if cut with a 7ft disc mower and got the contractor to then rake it. Have a 7ft mower but would want 8ft to be as wide as the baler.

The rake would probably thresh it.
Picked up wholecrop with silagewagon last year,it mowed with a disc mower and there was a small grain loss .

Farmer Pudsey

Robson99 wrote: »

Would you lose a lot of seed if cut with a 7ft disc mower and got the contractor to then rake it. Have a 7ft mower but would want 8ft to be as wide as the baler.

No I have done it for 3-4 years now if cut at cheesy stage the grain has a good grip on the stem . The rake that was use is on that turns rows into each other it is not like a hay turner. The advantage is the wilt will give you a good quality silage.

Robson99

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

No I have done it for 3-4 years now if cut at cheesy stage the grain has a good grip on the stem . The rake that was use is on that turns rows into each other it is not like a hay turner. The advantage is the wilt will give you a good quality silage.

Thanks Pudsey. Normally done our reseeding in Autumn but decided to try this out last May. Got contractor to cut it with a disc mower and bale it of the disc rows. Planning to do some more this year but may cut it myself and get him to row it up. Would mean less tracking by the tractor / baler if ground is on the soft side