DHS to purchase 1.6 BILLION rounds of ammunition

asherbassad

The Department of Homeland Security has issued an open purchase order for 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition some of it hollow-point (illegal under international law) and a huge amount specialized for snipers. Considering that at the height of the Iraq War, the Army was slinging around 6 million rounds a month, 1.6 billion rounds would be enough to sustain a raging war for 20 years.....on American soil.

So my question would be.....is this preparation for some kind of massive killing spree in the US or (as I suspect) just another boondoggle to shift millions of dollars of taxpayer money into the hands of weapons manufacturers on hardware that will just rust in crates or just be discharged into hillsides and hay-bales?

enno99

asherbassad wrote: »

The Department of Homeland Security has issued an open purchase order for 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition some of it hollow-point (illegal under international law) and a huge amount specialized for snipers. Considering that at the height of the Iraq War, the Army was slinging around 6 million rounds a month, 1.6 billion rounds would be enough to sustain a raging war for 20 years.....on American soil.

So my question would be.....is this preparation for some kind of massive killing spree in the US or (as I suspect) just another boondoggle to shift millions of dollars of taxpayer money into the hands of weapons manufacturers on hardware that will just rust in crates or just be discharged into hillsides and hay-bales?

here is some more of the shopping list

Why Is Obama's Growing DHS Army Buying Armored Vehicles?


The Department of Homeland Security (through the U.S. Army Forces Command) recently retrofitted 2,717 of these MRAP vehicles for service on the streets of the U.S. They were formerly used for counterinsurgency in Iraq.

These vehicles are specifically designed to resist mines and ambush attacks. They use bulletproof windows and are designed to withstand small-arms fire, including smaller-caliber rifles such as a .223 Remington. Does DHS expect a counterinsurgency here?

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/030513-646857-dhs-buys-special-armored-fighting-vehicles.htm

asherbassad

enno99 wrote: »

here is some more of the shopping list

Why Is Obama's Growing DHS Army Buying Armored Vehicles?


The Department of Homeland Security (through the U.S. Army Forces Command) recently retrofitted 2,717 of these MRAP vehicles for service on the streets of the U.S. They were formerly used for counterinsurgency in Iraq.

These vehicles are specifically designed to resist mines and ambush attacks. They use bulletproof windows and are designed to withstand small-arms fire, including smaller-caliber rifles such as a .223 Remington. Does DHS expect a counterinsurgency here?

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/030513-646857-dhs-buys-special-armored-fighting-vehicles.htm

Mine resistant? :pac:

Witcher

This thread came up a few months ago, RTDH was going on about it for ages and both military and civilian shooters such as myself explained it but he didn't accept it..how suprising.

The DHS is exempt from international regulations on the use of expanding ammunition as it's not being used by the military. Hollow point rounds themselves are not illegal merely their use on a battlefield.

The US Army and other agencies always buy up ammo like this. They had a tender out about 5 years ago, it was so big that it dried up the flow of .223 on this side of the world. It's nothing unusual.

asherbassad

Blay wrote: »

This thread came up a few months ago, RTDH was going on about it for ages and both military and civilian shooters such as myself explained it but he didn't accept it..how suprising.

The DHS is exempt from international regulations on the use of expanding ammunition as it's not being used by the military. Hollow point rounds themselves are not illegal merely their use on a battlefield.

The US Army and other agencies always buy up ammo like this. They had a tender out about 5 years ago, it was so big that it dried up the flow of .223 on this side of the world. It's nothing unusual.

Nothing unusual? So waste and pork and ripoffs have become so widespread now that you don't even bat an eyelid and say "wait a minute, is that really necessary?". I hope you don't give your kids your credit card.

So it's a boondoggle then. That's what you're saying?
20 years worth of fullscale war ammunition supplies to be used in the US?

And this isn't being bought by the Army....it's being bought by the DHS....who as far as I know don't operate in warzones so how would they possibly need that amount of ammunition? I know that if the Pentagon announced they were building a $1 trillion submarine base on the moon after they'd re-aquafied the Sea of Tranquility some people like you would find some bizarre and preposterous justification for it. But do the DHS really need a bullet for 1 out of 3 of the entire fcuking world's population?

And if you say that it's for range practice then it strikes me that it's just a shoot-up farce at the taxpayer's expense. If a DHS agent can't become a proficient shot/marksman with 50-100 rounds per week then he should go back to flipping burgers at Wendies or the rejoin the clowns at the TSA.

People complain about a single mother getting a few crappy foodstamps to feed her kids like she's bankrupting the country but when 100's of billions are just spunked up the wall by govenment agencies to enrich their friends in defense corporations, nobody has the balls to say "boo" for fear of being called an "unpatriotic, soft-on-terror, f*gg*t who doesn't believe our brave men and women in uniform should be protected!". It's laughable.

asherbassad

asherbassad wrote: »

Nothing unusual? So waste and pork and ripoffs have become so widespread now that you don't even bat an eyelid and say "wait a minute, is that really necessary?". I hope you don't give your kids your credit card.

So it's a boondoggle then. That's what you're saying?
20 years worth of fullscale war ammunition supplies to be used in the US?

What you are forgetting to mention in between hyperbole is that the ammo is being bought of a period of five years.

gibraltar

asherbassad wrote: »

Nothing unusual? So waste and pork and ripoffs have become so widespread now that you don't even bat an eyelid and say "wait a minute, is that really necessary?". I hope you don't give your kids your credit card.

?

asherbassad wrote: »

So it's a boondoggle then. That's what you're saying?
20 years worth of fullscale war ammunition supplies to be used in the US?

20 years of fullscale war? see below to understand how thats nonsense.

asherbassad wrote: »

And if you say that it's for range practice then it strikes me that it's just a shoot-up farce at the taxpayer's expense. If a DHS agent can't become a proficient shot/marksman with 50-100 rounds per week then he should go back to flipping burgers at Wendies or the rejoin the clowns at the TSA.

Well based on the order of 1.6 billion over five years the average amount that someone in the DHS would get is 39 rounds per week (thats rounded up too).

So the amount of bullets ordered is less than you think reasonable to remain a proficient shot.

End of thread there then.

Out of curisoty how many rounds of ammunition do you think are in civillian hands in America?, no need to be exact, to the nearest ten billion will do, so how many?

Wexfordian

Funny how figures can be either made big and scary or small and insignificant depending on context. Firstly the 1.6bn rounds. The DHS has 199,492 employees, lets say 200k for nice round figures. Lets also assume that 75% of them are unarmed, so we have 50k armed personnel to keep trained. If you take asherbasseds claim below that "If a DHS agent can't become a proficient shot/marksman with 50-100 rounds per week then he should go back to flipping burgers at Wendies" (and for the record I doubt it, for that sort of practice you would probably get to roughly "not shooting your partner by accident" levels), then the maths leaves you at:

100 rounds * 52 weeks * 5 years * 50,000 agents = 1.3bn rounds.

Of course these are only round figures, maybe there is only 40k armed staff, no idea. But even at pretty base levels 1.6bn rounds is not actually a lot.


Now as for the Iraq war. At its peak apparently 70 million rounds were fired per annum. Over 112,000 troops. so each soldier fired 625 rounds per year. Or to put it a different way each one fired 3 bullets every two days (ish). In a war zone. I can't actually find any official reference to this figure of 70m, though its hard to find any reference to it outside of this whole 1.6bn rounds tale.

Edit: Aww, beaten to it for the maths...

Tar.Aldarion

This is an open contract that allows the department to purchase up to 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition at the agreed price. There is no obligation to actually purchase that amount. This contract is actually a cost saving measure and with the order they can purchase ammunition at the agreed upon rate even at lower quantities on an as needed basis. This is a usual thing, the agencies never actually buy the full amount... on top of that this order is for multiple agencies and made by one agency, who then shares them out. They will buy nowhere near 1.6 billion.

wexie

Wexfordian wrote: »

..... for that sort of practice you would probably get to roughly "not shooting your partner by accident" levels).....

couldn't help but giggle at that

Also the DHS run places like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Law_Enforcement_Training_Center which no doubt supplies ammo to the employees from other agencies for the training and testing.

asherbassad

King Mob wrote: »

What you are forgetting to mention in between hyperbole is that the ammo is being bought of a period of five years.

Well, is it?

So enough ammunition to sustain the height if the Iraq War for TWENTY YEARS on AMERICAN SOIL is being purchased over the course of 5 years instead of in one go makes all the difference in your eyes?

Thanks for that gem.

So a guy buys a bunch of sh!t he'll never need but if he buys it over 5 years then all of a sudden it's ok? What the hell are you on about?

asherbassad

asherbassad wrote: »

Well, is it?

So enough ammunition to sustain the height if the Iraq War for TWENTY YEARS on AMERICAN SOIL is being purchased over the course of 5 years instead of in one go makes all the difference in your eyes?

Thanks for that gem.

So a guy buys a bunch of sh!t he'll never need but if he buys it over 5 years then all of a sudden it's ok? What the hell are you on about?

But as has been shown, spreading the purchase over 5 years and over the entire DHS, it's not an unreasonable, or unusual amount. Even by your own standards.
And then there's the little fact that was pointed out to you by Tar.Aldarion that they have only been authorised to purchase up to that amount, which is not them same as them buying that entire amount.

If you want us to buy that this figure is somehow alarming, you are going to need to address those point.

asherbassad

Wexfordian wrote: »

Funny how figures can be either made big and scary or small and insignificant depending on context. Firstly the 1.6bn rounds. The DHS has 199,492 employees, lets say 200k for nice round figures. Lets also assume that 75% of them are unarmed, so we have 50k armed personnel to keep trained. If you take asherbasseds claim below that "If a DHS agent can't become a proficient shot/marksman with 50-100 rounds per week then he should go back to flipping burgers at Wendies" (and for the record I doubt it, for that sort of practice you would probably get to roughly "not shooting your partner by accident" levels), then the maths leaves you at:

100 rounds * 52 weeks * 5 years * 50,000 agents = 1.3bn rounds.

Of course these are only round figures, maybe there is only 40k armed staff, no idea. But even at pretty base levels 1.6bn rounds is not actually a lot.


Now as for the Iraq war. At its peak apparently 70 million rounds were fired per annum. Over 112,000 troops. so each soldier fired 625 rounds per year. Or to put it a different way each one fired 3 bullets every two days (ish). In a war zone. I can't actually find any official reference to this figure of 70m, though its hard to find any reference to it outside of this whole 1.6bn rounds tale.



Edit: Aww, beaten to it for the maths...

Regarding the numbers....I'll just concentrate on the deployed numbers for now. Out of your 112,000 scarcely 10 percent were in field combat troops. For every soldier that was out plodding around with a gun there were between 7 and 10 in rear echelons who never so much as picked up a gun let alone fired an angry shot....nurses, doctors, office pogues, mechanics, burger flippers, laundry monkeys, radio operators, even DJ's. So your 625 is probably closer to 7000 rounds per year...closer I think to about 150 rounds a week....not your 1.5 every day.

I'll do some more breaking down on your DHS figures.....but here's something regarding the amount of lead slung around.....in fact I was so wrong about the 6 million rounds a month:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/us-forced-to-import-bullets-from-israel-as-troops-use-250000-for-every-rebel-killed-28580666.html

250,000 cartridges for every insurgent killed?
Somehow I'm guessing that for all those bullets wasted per insurgent, i.e. 249,999 at least a few hundred tore into civilians.

Absolam

The article you linked claims a government report shows the US forces use 1.8 billion rounds of small and medium calibre ammunition per year, which would seem to cast some doubt over the idea that 1.6 billion rounds is sufficient for 20 years of full scale war.... and makes me think that the DHS is low balling it's purchase requirements for the next five years.

Danpad

I can understand that there are theories and the de-bunking of theories, however, the U.S are carrying out exercises over their own cities under the guise of 'oh, we're just practising urban warfare drills.' Obama gave the go ahead to use drones in order to monitor the American public. I'm sorry but if you live in Miami or Los Angeles and, whilst taking your dog out for a walk one evening, observe Apache gunships swooping between the skyline you'd be forgiven for thinking, upon hearing about extra ammunition purchases, 'hmm, something's not quite right here.' I have two close friends working in different cities in the U.S (Chicago & Dallas) and both claim that there is a constant 'buzz' if you like amongst their colleagues, neighbours and friends that something is imminent. Didn't a Texan official recently introduce legislation (or attempt to) to have federal agents arrested if they tried to impose the gun law in that state? If I had to bet, my money would be on the theory, in some form, becoming reality.

arius

Wexfordian wrote: »

Funny how figures can be either made big and scary or small and insignificant depending on context. Firstly the 1.6bn rounds. The DHS has 199,492 employees, lets say 200k for nice round figures. Lets also assume that 75% of them are unarmed, so we have 50k armed personnel to keep trained. If you take asherbasseds claim below that "If a DHS agent can't become a proficient shot/marksman with 50-100 rounds per week then he should go back to flipping burgers at Wendies" (and for the record I doubt it, for that sort of practice you would probably get to roughly "not shooting your partner by accident" levels), then the maths leaves you at:

100 rounds * 52 weeks * 5 years * 50,000 agents = 1.3bn rounds.

Of course these are only round figures, maybe there is only 40k armed staff, no idea. But even at pretty base levels 1.6bn rounds is not actually a lot.


Now as for the Iraq war. At its peak apparently 70 million rounds were fired per annum. Over 112,000 troops. so each soldier fired 625 rounds per year. Or to put it a different way each one fired 3 bullets every two days (ish). In a war zone. I can't actually find any official reference to this figure of 70m, though its hard to find any reference to it outside of this whole 1.6bn rounds tale.

Edit: Aww, beaten to it for the maths...

Let's revise your math with some information from the DHS.

According to the DHS, there are 70, 000 armed agents which used approx. 88 million rounds of ammunition for training in 2012. An average of 1,257 bullets per employee or about 24 per week

24 rounds * 52 weeks * 5 years * 70,000 agents = 436 million.

The total number of ammo used for 2012 was 103 million.
Over 5 years, that's still only 515 million rounds required for all armed staff.

So DHS have a surplus of over 1 Billion rounds.

Either it's a waste of money or these rounds are being shipped somewhere else like maybe Mexico...or Syria...Mali...who would know really?

Project Gunrunner anyone?

gibraltar wrote:

End of thread there then.

Yes, now it is.

Wexfordian

arius wrote: »

Let's revise your math with some information from the DHS.

According to the DHS,....

Any chance of some back-up? 24 rounds a week seems very low.

Anynama141

Also, isn't the deal for authorization or an option to buy that many rounds? As in, that's the maximum?

And the total that will eventually be purchased may be a fraction of that?