I just can't find work!

LegacyUser

Hi!

I'm getting a bit fed up trying to find work, and to be frank, pissed off with the outcome of interviews and how rude people can be. It's really getting me down. I might come across as a snob or something during this post, but it's just me being angry and having a rant.

I'm a developer. Have been doing it for a good 8 years now for a living. I've won awards for projects that I've done from an idea to completion on my own beating agencies that have teams working on projects. I've also won awards as part of a team. Not small awards, very good ones. I've lived and breathed the industry since about 1998. It's not something I do because there is money in it, or because it's possibly 'cool'. This is my hobby and what I spend my time learning. I've completed 2 hons degrees and a masters in different areas of web development while working freelance. I have never once been on the dole in my life.

I'm an honest chap. I have a steady client base who return to me for my services because they know I won't mess them around. But as time goes on I'm realizing that I can't afford to actually live the life I should be living by now. Any role I apply for is met with "we're sorry, you don't have enough experience". I've even applied for junior roles only to be ignored. I've been to about 6 interviews since Christmas, and each agency I was in raved about how great my CV and portfolio was and that I'd make a great addition to the team only "the guy we're giving the job to has x amount of experience in an agency". Other agencies I've applied to have simply not bothered to reply to me.

I sat in an interview where one of the two guys had huge headphones around his neck, chewing gum while sitting back in his chair looking at the ceiling. It was quite possibly the worst interview I've ever done! I just felt like the guy pure hated my guts and for a reason I just couldn't fathom. It threw me off the interview completely.

Another interview left me explaining the very basics of web development to their 'front end developer' who ultimately decided that I again wasn't experienced enough and they are giving the role to someone else. I had more expertise in my little finger. The role was back on their site a month later. I could have done that job in my sleep and would have loved every minute of it.

What is the fascination with agency experience? They've brought me in based on a portfolio of work which I've built up over 7-10 years that is backed with awards and great references. Why bother if you know I don't have experience? What more can you want other than a solid portfolio?

How are people getting jobs? I know loads of developers who have left college and found work right away. I'm really finding it hard and I feel like I'm completely running out of options. This was my plan, to be the best I can be at this, then get a job and do what I love for a living.

For each interview I made sure I was early, clean, polite and cheerful. I really enjoyed being in an office environment for the interviewing process and I never once was in any way rude.

It's starting to feel like I'll never get a job now and I'm starting to get panic attacks. I used to suffer from them a few years back for a year or so, and they are starting to creep back into my life again. I have a very supporting girlfriend who is helping me through them but I know it will all pass when I manage to get a career on the go. I've talked to her about this stuff but the topic is just wearing thin now and I feel like a complete and utter failure.

Anyways, rant over. Any advise on this topic would be really appreciated!

Thanks

Merkin

roobixkoob wrote: »

What is the fascination with agency experience?

Every company is so focused on winning new business they also look at the commercial potential of any potential employee. They are looking at agency experience as having some brings the automatic assumption that you'll also bring clients/contacts/revenue to the company you join. I'd alter your CV to make it more commercially focused as well as name-dropping like a good one at every opportunity....

Reesy

Hi,

Sorry to hear that.

Might it be something about how you come across, not your skills? My firm doesn't hire people who we think may not fit in, however good their skills are.

Have you ever asked for feedback at the end of an interview? Maybe that would help you learn what's going on. Have you tried asking the agencies that put you forward for the roles to ask for & give you feedback?

Good luck.

Lux23

Is there any chance of you going into a place for a week or so just to show them what you can do?

LegacyUser

Merkin wrote: »

Every company is so focused on winning new business they also look at the commercial potential of any potential employee. They are looking at agency experience as having some brings the automatic assumption that you'll also bring clients/contacts/revenue to the company you join. I'd alter your CV to make it more commercially focused as well as name-dropping like a good one at every opportunity....

I see, I've worked with a few big names and have them included on my CV. I do talk about them in the interview but I always try put a focus on the work and what is interesting about the select projects that I have on there. I didn't realize that these agencies assume I will bring clients with me, I find that a bit far fetched to ask of anyone applying for a job! Especially if they are willing to settle for a graduate position! That really sucks.

Reesy wrote: »

Hi,
Sorry to hear that.
Might it be something about how you come across, not your skills? My firm doesn't hire people who we think may not fit in, however good their skills are.
Have you ever asked for feedback at the end of an interview? Maybe that would help you learn what's going on. Have you tried asking the agencies that put you forward for the roles to ask for & give you feedback?
Good luck.

Thanks, I do think this is what it must come down to. Although each interview I've had has lasted the guts of 50-75 minutes with plenty of laughs back and forth, while being on point about what is the topic of conversation at that time being. I really try to be as nice as possible. The feedback that I've gotten has been sparse and vague, but for the most part they have all said that I would fit in, but they are just looking for more experience. I have tried to chase up better feedback, but once they have sent me my refusal email they just don't seem to give me the time of day.

Lux23 wrote: »

Is there any chance of you going into a place for a week or so just to show them what you can do?

This is the bad part. Another one of the places I interviewed for did give me great feedback, but again, the other chap had more experience. They kept me in mind and I've done a couple of weeks in that agency, sub contract stuff and developed a really nice design which was heavy on front end development. The site was really a great, well rounded example of all the aspects of web development that could possibly come up in an interview. But I can't use it in my portfolio or say I work for them. They said they will take me on for jobs here and there when they need an extra hand, but again, its just a pay slip and not a fulltime job or anything that will benefit me as a career path.

I would happily work for free to get my foot in the door. I am a firm believer in foundations and have no problems with starting at the bottom and working my way up. I just want to be part of a team and know that people can depend on me. Do you think that it would be worth while just working for free for a few different places for a week on end?

Thanks for the insights from everyone btw

Reesy

Reesy wrote: »

Might it be something about how you come across, not your skills? My firm doesn't hire people who we think may not fit in, however good their skills are.

To be honest OP, I'd agree with Reesy. I've nothing to do with web development, but just personally I don't think you've come across very well in your post. My boss is hiring at the moment, and my manager and I were talking the other day about how we'd both prefer to work with someone who got the job done and was easy to get along with rather than someone who was amazing at their job but not as likable. Ultimately it's important to have a strong team of staff that can work well together, and maybe that's a factor in why you've not had much luck, especially since you mention feeling like an interviewer just didn't like you. It sounds like you actually resent your potential employers a bit because they don't see how amazing you think you are.

roobixkoob wrote: »

But as time goes on I'm realizing that I can't afford to actually live the life I should be living by now.

I had more expertise in my little finger. The role was back on their site a month later. I could have done that job in my sleep and would have loved every minute of it.

LegacyUser

true-or-false wrote: »

To be honest OP, I'd agree with Reesy. I've nothing to do with web development, but just personally I don't think you've come across very well in your post. My boss is hiring at the moment, and my manager and I were talking the other day about how we'd both prefer to work with someone who got the job done and was easy to get along with rather than someone who was amazing at their job but not as likable. Ultimately it's important to have a strong team of staff that can work well together, and maybe that's a factor in why you've not had much luck, especially since you mention feeling like an interviewer just didn't like you. It sounds like you actually resent your potential employers a bit because they don't see how amazing you think you are.

You're right. While I can honestly say I've done by best trying to be as polite as I could be, there would have been a negative thought. It could have been that I was too good, or not good enough and maybe that resonated through my smiles during the interviews without me knowing.

Nobody wants to be around people who suck the life out of the environment, I know I don't. I surround my social life with happy go lucky people because I have no time for people who drain me - why should a work place be any different?

But, that isn't my intention. I had a much needed rant in my post because I was looking for people to maybe understand my frustration as I can't keep facing the people around me when I read the rejection email. So of course I'm going to come across bad - I'm very upset and it doesn't feel fair to me.

But in relation to the last sentence of your post, one thing I am sure of, is that I am very capable, hardworking, and determined to do the best possible job when it comes to this stuff. It's not work to me. I know I am great at my job, I don't resent people for not seeing it because I know that most people who use my work will never understand what goes on behind what you see and click on and tbh, they don't care. All that matters(to an extent) is that it works. That's something I accepted years ago. If I wanted recognition I probably would have focused on something visual like design.

But back to the main point. How does someone be better at interviews when they are already being the nicest they can be?

username123

roobixkoob wrote: »

But back to the main point. How does someone be better at interviews when they are already being the nicest they can be?

You cant.
This situation sucks. My husband has 14 years industry experience, is educated to masters level, and genuinely is a nice bloke with great manners and he experienced exactly what you are going through right now for most of last year.

Its this bloody country thats the problem. Employers are cutting corners all over taking who ever will work for the lowest money, and if they come across someone willing to go in low - they worry that person will be out the door the minute they get a better offer.

Sorry for the rant - this is supposed to be your rant!!

Anyway - would you go away to a different country? This country is only likely to get into a worse state with whats coming down the line (more taxes, less money in the economy, personal insolvency, repossessions, etc...).

If you are young enough - get out now. We tried to but too old.

Best of luck, you are probably not doing anything wrong - its just the climate we are in.

LegacyUser

username123 wrote: »

You cant.
This situation sucks. My husband has 14 years industry experience, is educated to masters level, and genuinely is a nice bloke with great manners and he experienced exactly what you are going through right now for most of last year.

Its this bloody country thats the problem. Employers are cutting corners all over taking who ever will work for the lowest money, and if they come across someone willing to go in low - they worry that person will be out the door the minute they get a better offer.

Sorry for the rant - this is supposed to be your rant!!

Anyway - would you go away to a different country? This country is only likely to get into a worse state with whats coming down the line (more taxes, less money in the economy, personal insolvency, repossessions, etc...).

If you are young enough - get out now. We tried to but too old.

Best of luck, you are probably not doing anything wrong - its just the climate we are in.

Don't be, I'm glad someone understands it first hand (sorry its you!). It is very tough and hard to take, with 14 years experience and a Masters I would think they would be hard pressed to find a good excuse to not employ him. What feedback was he given?

As far as going away goes...I'm 30 and my gf has a great job that she enjoys and I wouldn't want to take it away from her. I don't believe the grass is greener, it might be warmer, but my friends and family are here and leaving them behind would be worse than what I'm going through now I think. I'm just about getting by, and I can cope, but my workload is taking its toll on my body and I am completely worn out and I have to do something about it.

username123

roobixkoob wrote: »

Don't be, I'm glad someone understands it first hand (sorry its you!). It is very tough and hard to take, with 14 years experience and a Masters I would think they would be hard pressed to find a good excuse to not employ him. What feedback was he given?

A variety of reasons and sometimes no contact at all!! Mostly "too experienced, looking for a graduate", "not the right skill set", in one case "we'd rather employ a woman"! - mostly I think they felt that he would be away quick because the money wasnt good enough for someone of his experience and level. He has a job now, and one that he likes - but he WAS going for any old rubbish and says himself he may have given off a disinterested vibe because some of the jobs were way below his level but he was just desperate.

You need to take care of yourself and be sure to be taking plenty of exercise. The job will come. Its just a hard slog to get the foot in the door right now. I know lots of people who have had similar experiences to you. Its really important that you DONT start thinking its you personally - its not. Another tip is a CV revamp, although if you are getting interviews then that is a sign its a good CV. So youve a good CV, youre getting interviews, now its just a matter of riding it out and waiting for it to happen.

Best of luck, it will happen for you, I know it will - think of it as a numbers game, eventually it will go your way. Just try to stay super positive!

ongarboy

Hi OP, I agree with others, don't take it personally. There is a recession on and 1000s of perfectly qualified people are not getting the jobs in their fields of expertise. It's just the sad state of affairs at the moment and why so many emigrate.

Perhaps there may be something in the interviews that is going against you at the final hurdle. Would you consider going on an interview technique course? I'm sure if you google, you will find career guidance type companies that offer this service and may be worth the investment.

Don't take offence but I also got an ever so slight whiff of arrogance in your opening post such as when you said you had more knowledge about development in your little finger than your interviewer did - how could you make such an assessment in such a short time without even working with that person? Maybe your opinion filtered through? Maybe that person was checking you out by asking you basic questions to rate your abilities?

Even saying to us that you can do such a job in your sleep also gives off a boastful rather than a competent vibe. It may only have been a figure of speech but employers want people who can demonstrate how they can bring passion, innovation, reliability and energy to a role - Justifying your ability by being able to do it in your sleep is not a good selling tactic even if you didn't say it in so many words.

Maybe you are giving off a vibe in such interviews that makes the interviewers select someone else. I've interviewed many people for jobs in my last company and often the candidates had equally excellent abilities/credentials and it was very hard to choose in such close situations so in the end we had to make the final call based on the candidate that gave off a better personality on top of all the other successful benchmark competencies. Personality really does go along way. Again, I'm not saying you have any problem with yours as I don't know you but maybe it takes an objective outsider like a Careers professional who may be honest to tell you where you might be going wrong in an interview technique course. Anything that can maximise your marketability is worth considering.

Best of luck!

Stheno

username123 wrote: »

You cant.
This situation sucks. My husband has 14 years industry experience, is educated to masters level, and genuinely is a nice bloke with great manners and he experienced exactly what you are going through right now for most of last year.

Its this bloody country thats the problem. Employers are cutting corners all over taking who ever will work for the lowest money, and if they come across someone willing to go in low - they worry that person will be out the door the minute they get a better offer.

Sorry for the rant - this is supposed to be your rant!!

Anyway - would you go away to a different country? This country is only likely to get into a worse state with whats coming down the line (more taxes, less money in the economy, personal insolvency, repossessions, etc...).

If you are young enough - get out now. We tried to but too old.

Best of luck, you are probably not doing anything wrong - its just the climate we are in.

Not in IT it's not, they are crying out for developers.

@ OP, communication is less then 10% what you say and 90% body language

That's what you are doing in an interview, selling yourself/communicating how well you will fit in.

From your posts you are not doing that terribly well.

Do some research on communication skills and you may benefit
From your initial post you come across almost as expecting that employers should be glad to have access to your skills and experience, but are blowing it in terms of your communication skills.

jester77

Maybe approach the job search from a different angle. How is your github account looking? This is a better way of selling yourself than any CV. Your work is in the open and people can see what your capable of and what you have contributed to. There is a also the github jobs section, this is an excellent way of finding jobs.

Tidy up your linkedin account, connect with people/clients you have worked with, get clients to write you recommendations on your profile and join the relevant communities. Get interacting in discussions and you will have people dropping job offers in your inbox, you won't even have to go chasing.

Have you done any blogging, publications or event speaking? Highlight these as they are a great way of selling yourself.

Diziet

Have a read of this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Answers-Tough-Interview-Questions/dp/0749435526

It is not just about interviews, but also about job searching in general. I learned a lot from it and consider it one of the best job searching books out there.