Those who build/ those who Design

martinn123

Hi Guy's

A Topic which has troubled me since starting to post in this Forum, is the perception, from those with an Architectural background, that ''most'' of those who ''Build'' are unknowledgable on Building Reg's, cutting corners, and maybe a bit unreliable.

Now I do not question the Study, Knowledge of those who have many years experience in studying the Reg's etc, and resolving problems with with poor standards, in my opinion, and its just my opinion, this Forum, puts Builders down a little too much.

I accept that the '' Certs'' are issued by Architects, and that their efforts may become more difficult, with the new legislation, but they have actually managed to cover their backside over the years by issuing ''Opinions'' rather than ''Certs''

Yes I accept its not reasonable to inspect every nail driven, so let's not go there.

My area of ''expertise'' is Conservatories and Architects I find in general, including my own Architect,, when I built my home, do not understand/appreciate how they work, and that's based on 15yrs experience.

So any Builders in this forum care to comment on how we are perceived,
have we deserved the reputation as Rogue, given the Tiger Years Crap standards, and the tendency to go to UK to become bankrupt??

i do accept there are ''Cowboys'' and that they should be weeded out,

I hope this get's bye the Mod's who I think are mostly from an Architectural background, if only for discussion purposes.

topcatcbr

I have read the above trying to work out what your asking.
Are you asking us to say how builders go over and above what is required to meet building regs.
Or is it that you suggest that we should all just trust our builder and not bother inspecting their work as they are the experts and know better.

I don't have any problem with builders and have a good working relationship with many.
I am over 40 and have been involved in construction since I was a kid. From cleaning up on site as a kid in my dads construction firm to training as a carpenter after leaving cert to training as an Arch Tech at 30 and working at this since including BER &Passive house training.

I have been both sides of this fence and think I have done both well and made mistakes also.
The main issue as I see it is that it benefits a builder financialy to cut costs and this can lead to cutting corners and causing issues meeting requirements. As with every profession there are some who are good and those who are not so good but even the good can fall down with the fact that they will not generally have access to the most current information this is where designers come in as this is their role. The purpose of drawings is to provide this. Along with a contractual format to tie parties in an agreement.

There is no doubt that the later years of the building boom did alot of damage to building standards here. When people are paid on price it is in ones interest to complete a job ASAP and get onto next one. This is not how quality work is done. This is done old school and paid by the hour. This is not a builders fault.

sinnerboy

martinn123 wrote: »

Hi Guy's

A Topic which has troubled me since starting to post in this Forum, is the perception, from those with an Architectural background, that ''most'' of those who ''Build'' are unknowledgable on Building Reg's, cutting corners, and maybe a bit unreliable.

Coming from an Architectural background I have worked with fantastic builders and with those I would not trust to make a cup of tea.

martinn123 wrote: »

Now I do not question the Study, Knowledge of those who have many years experience in studying the Reg's etc, and resolving problems with with poor standards, in my opinion, and its just my opinion, this Forum, puts Builders down a little too much.

I think you protest too much.

martinn123 wrote: »

I accept that the '' Certs'' are issued by Architects, and that their efforts may become more difficult, with the new legislation, but they have actually managed to cover their backside over the years by issuing ''Opinions'' rather than ''Certs''

A belief you have expressed many times here and one I am sure you are sincere in holding to.

martinn123 wrote: »

Yes I accept its not reasonable to inspect every nail driven, so let's not go there.

martinn123 wrote: »

My area of ''expertise'' is Conservatories and Architects I find in general, including my own Architect,, when I built my home, do not understand/appreciate how they work, and that's based on 15yrs experience.

You SHOULD know more than me about conservatories if that is your chosen field. Electricians , plumbers , Structural Engineers .... there a lots of experts I expect to know more than I do about their chosen expertise.

martinn123 wrote: »

So any Builders in this forum care to comment on how we are perceived, have we deserved the reputation as Rogue, given the Tiger Years Crap standards, and the tendency to go to UK to become bankrupt??

i do accept there are ''Cowboys'' and that they should be weeded out,

I hope this get's bye the Mod's who I think are mostly from an Architectural background, if only for discussion purposes.

Is this the main point of your thread ? If so - post away all builders ( having first read our forum charter - of course )

sydthebeat

Its not only builders whos reputation has been tarnised from some of the crap fall out from the tiger era.
everyone involved in the construction industry has taken a reputational hit, from developers, to planners, to builders, engineers, architects etc etc.

but to deal with your 'query' specifically... firstly i would echo what has been said above. i know some very very good builders and i have learnt as much from them in the 'real world' environment as i have elsewhere. I do not 'recommend' builders to any clients as a matter of professionalism, but i certainly do advise against some.

A few points:

1. there is no national register of professional builders. Currently anyone can call themselves a builder and need to show no qualification whatsoever. Registration with bodies such as HOMEBOND (an insurance scheme) is a slight protection for the consumer, but it is possible to become a member with no previous building experience, or assessment of competency. Joining CIF needs no more than a tax clearance cert.

2. As there is no registry body, there is no compulsion on any builder to attend "Continuous Professional development" courses, whereas Professional Registered Architects, Technicians, engineers & Surveyors are required to attend a set amount per year in order to stay registered.

3. unless the builder takes it upon themselves to keep up to date with amendments to building regulations, new regulations and updates, they only way they find out is from mistakes made on site. Unless there is a professional engaged to inspect the works these mistakes will not be seen, as there is little or no building control in ireland.


i know some builders who attend every homebond seminar and stay up to date with changes to regs, however these would be in the minority of "builders" i have come across. Also, these seminars tend to occur months after the implementation of the updates, probably because those running the courses want to see how they affect the on-site process.

The only way to weed out the "cowboys" is to make 'building' a professional occupation.

There needs to be a registry body who:
assess on going competence;
who set minimal professional standards for joining;
who require minimum continuous education and development;
who insist on a high level of indemnification for the client;

we do not have that at present.

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

Its not only builders whos reputation has been tarnised from some of the crap fall out from the tiger era.
everyone involved in the construction industry has taken a reputational hit, from developers, to planners, to builders, engineers, architects etc etc.

Agreed, anyone involved over the madness years has to bear some responsibility.

The only way to weed out the "cowboys" is to make 'building' a professional occupation.

There needs to be a registry body who:
assess on going competence;
who set minimal professional standards for joining;
who require minimum continuous education and development;
who insist on a high level of indemnification for the client;

we do not have that at present.

Again, I agree, I suppose my reason for posting this thread, is the usual practise of posters hereabouts, merely posting, '' go talk to an Architect'' type reply.

While its good advice to my mind it suggests that is the only answer.

There are guy's out there who are capable of putting together an extention, to meet the current Reg's.

In addition where a poster has a problem on site, it's ''well you should have engaged an Architect'' type reply.

I feel this gives an anti-builder read to this Forum, but that's only my opinion.

I look forward to any-one in Building giving a post, but as they are all in Cheltenham, might be on my own here.

topcatcbr

martinn123 wrote: »

Agreed, anyone involved over the madness years has to bear some responsibility.



Again, I agree, I suppose my reason for posting this thread, is the usual practise of posters hereabouts, merely posting, '' go talk to an Architect'' type reply.

While its good advice to my mind it suggests that is the only answer.

There are guy's out there who are capable of putting together an extention, to meet the current Reg's.

There are many. But most of the problems we discuss here involve times when someone has engaged a contractor on this basis only to find they did not perform their duties as expected. As said above. there is no competencies required to advertise as a "builder". This is a problem for all the dedicated and professional craftsmen and builder. I personally know many people who i went to school with who left school in the late 80s like me. I trained for 4 years to become a qualified Carpenter/Joiner when my friends went to the UK to work on the building sites there and after 18 months or so returning and claiming to be a Carpenter. This would be fine but at the time the construction industry was taking off here so they found jobs doing inferior work. The contractors only wanted people on-site so they could get paid per person supplied or task performed depending on the job.
Some of these then started up there own subcontracting firms and while they learned on the job they brought a certain "will do" attitude to any work environment they were on. Needless to say these are now Unemployed and giving out about how badly they were treated.

It is always best to engage a building professional even if your builder is fantastic as two heads are better than one especially when they are independent of each other. This works the other way also. A good builder often picks up on mistakes made by Architects etc.

martinn123 wrote: »

In addition where a poster has a problem on site, it's ''well you should have engaged an Architect'' type reply.

I feel this gives an anti-builder read to this Forum, but that's only my opinion.

I look forward to any-one in Building giving a post, but as they are all in Cheltenham, might be on my own here.

We are not allowed to recommend individuals either.

When talking to those outside the construction industry we are often perceived in the same light as those greedy bankers who broke the country. This i think is the general perception out there and not just in this forum.

How can we justly tell people to talk to a "good builder". I would gladly tell them this. But how are they to know a "Good Builder" from a Poor one. At least with Building professionals they have to have completed a certain level of education to be allowed call themselves (architect/Engineer/Arch Tech, Etc.) and if they are chartered they also have to show their professional competencies to their peers. Its not perfect but at least its something.

martinn123 wrote: »

I feel this gives an anti-builder read to this Forum, but that's only my opinion.

Maybe this has something to do with Builders.

No6

sydthebeat wrote: »

The only way to weed out the "cowboys" is to make 'building' a professional occupation.

There needs to be a registry body who:
assess on going competence;
who set minimal professional standards for joining;
who require minimum continuous education and development;
who insist on a high level of indemnification for the client;

we do not have that at present.

Having left our fair isle for sunny Oz where they have such a system I can categorically say its a crock of s**t!! Registered builders here are supposed to know the in and outs of the regulations but I have found in the main that they know less about them than many of our Irish builders and care even less!! Some are good but there are plenty of cowboys here too. Some can be a bit pushy because they are registered.

I worked with lots of excellent Irish builders over the years but there will always be cowboys in the building game, it cannot be avoided IMO no matter what system you have.

sydthebeat

No6 wrote: »

Having left our fair isle for sunny Oz where they have such a system I can categorically say its a crock of s**t!! Registered builders here are supposed to know the in and outs of the regulations but I have found in the main that they know less about them than many of our Irish builders and care even less!! Some are good but there are plenty of cowboys here too. Some can be a bit pushy because they are registered.

I worked with lots of excellent Irish builders over the years but there will always be cowboys in the building game, it cannot be avoided IMO no matter what system you have.

ever system is only as good as its enforcement.
If on going assessment, and continuous development, was enforced then im sure it would be different.

Like every profession there are those that excel and those that are incompetent. There should be some kind of protection to the consumer from the incompetents.
The problem is, how do you spot the cowboy from the chief in the first place,.

sinnerboy

sydthebeat wrote: »

The problem is, how do you spot the cowboy from the chief in the first place,.

References , references references. In the selection of your builder and your architect / engineer / technician. Or conservatory specialist You pay for quality. Otherwise you roll the dice.

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

References , references references. In the selection of your builder and your architect / engineer / technician. Or conservatory specialist You pay for quality. Otherwise you roll the dice.

ah but does that protect you from yourself when we have cases of

as we know builder we didnt think he would do any wrong

;)

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

ever system is only as good as its enforcement.
If on going assessment, and continuous development, was enforced then im sure it would be different.

Like every profession there are those that excel and those that are incompetent. There should be some kind of protection to the consumer from the incompetents.
The problem is, how do you spot the cowboy from the chief in the first place,.

But there is no enforcement, and will that change??
I constantly read here about a lack of enforcement from the LA's
The recent uproar about the New Certification Reg's brought about a clatter of calls here for standards to be enforced again by LA's, not gonna happen.

I agree with,

Sinnerboy wrote:

References , references references. In the selection of your builder and your architect / engineer / technician. Or conservatory specialist You pay for quality. Otherwise you roll the dice.

especially in relation to Conservatory Specialist, but ''paying for quality'' is often the issue, ( are there "under the counter" Architects out there, working under the Radar)??

One thing to avoid is the Web-sites offering to get you 3/4 Quotes from '' Vetted Tradesmen''

I have been approached three times recently by such Co's, they did not want to check refrences, previous work etc, just to sign me up for a monthly Fee in return for which they promised me ''guaranteed Work in your area''
Buyer Beware

edit: agreed adjustment
sydthebeat

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

Buyer Beware

yes, but better still, buyer be protected by having independent professional looking after your corner.

just do it

Just to throw in my tupence worth as a self-builder with no background in construction. The over-riding issue as I see it is no building control. Why should I have to hire a professional to ensure all is good? The CoCo specify that the building must be to regulatory standard, and is well able to charge planning fees etc, but aren't willing to police these regulatory standards.

Agree with OPs point regarding the bias on this forum, but can appreciate why this is so. Builders like to build and not read and study. Building professionals are more interested in the theory behind it which has lead them to study and qualifications. Going on from this to be a mod on a specialist forum means you have to be well up on your brief as you'll be slated for inaccurate information. And finally on a weekly basis there is a cry for help thread along the lines of "I knew him, came with a good repuation, asked him to put in a high level of insulation, gave a good price - but, now that I look at what has been built I'm not happy!" Therefore on this thread there is probably an over representation of disatisfied customers (given the satisfied customers have no reason to come on here).

Ultimately it comes down to buyer beware

sinnerboy

just do it wrote: »

Why should I have to hire a professional to ensure all is good?

Because you are

just do it wrote: »

a self-builder with no background in construction

And

just do it wrote: »

The CoCo ….aren't willing to police these regulatory standards.

And

just do it wrote: »

Builders like to build and not read and study

And

just do it wrote: »

Building professionals are more interested in the theory behind it which has lead them to study and qualifications.

just do it wrote: »

Agree with OPs point regarding the bias on this forum

Would you prefer us to absent ourselves from here and leave you alone with all the other

self-builders with no background in construction

and to make it “nicer” for martin123 and all the other builders who are too shy to contribute here.

Where are all the builders to re dress this bias ?

Why aren't they posting ?

martinn123

sinnerboy wrote: »

Would you prefer us to absent ourselves from here and leave you alone with all the other and to make it “nicer” for martin123 and all the other builders who are too shy to contribute here.

Where are all the builders to re dress this bias ?

Why aren't they posting ?

Well, I doubt if that many Builders would hang around here for too long, as they are continually being run down, and critisised

While I agree, its when something goes wrong, that a thread is started, and so it's an imbalance between, good work, and bad, we only see the bad here.

In my view the Forum while a source of excellent information useful to Self-Builders, those getting extentions etc, the over critical comments from those Architects who contribute, is plain to see.

OK it comes from your experiences, but I have only seen one reasonable, and fair comment so far,

Sydthebeat wrote:

Its not only builders whos reputation has been tarnised from some of the crap fall out from the tiger era.
everyone involved in the construction industry has taken a reputational hit, from developers, to planners, to builders, engineers, architects etc etc.

In that sentence it sums up that we ALL have had our reputation tarnished.

sinnerboy

martinn123 wrote: »

Well, I doubt if that many Builders would hang around here for too long, as they are continually being run down, and critisised

They could hang around and re-butt.

martinn123 wrote: »

While I agree, its when something goes wrong, that a thread is started, and so it's an imbalance between, good work, and bad, we only see the bad here.

this includes , occasionally , complaints of poor professional services. And yet we stick around.

martinn123 wrote: »

In my view ... the over critical comments from those Architects who contribute, is plain to see.

Your perception , your hang ups.

martinn123 wrote: »

OK it comes from your experiences, but I have only seen one reasonable, and fair comment so far, ... In that sentence it sums up that we ALL have had our reputation tarnished.

....and it feels more comfortable for you to feel part of a crowd . Right ?

martinn123

Jesus, someone's having a bad day.

Reminds me of.............Joined a Club once

It was run by Architects,

I criticised an Architect.

Was made to feel unwelcome.

I left the Club.

And NO, I do not have any ''hangups'' and I do not feel better being part of a crowd

muffler

martinn123 wrote: »

we ALL have had our reputation tarnished.

Some worse than others though.

On a personal level (in my own county) I have only ever encountered one contractor who I could describe as first class and he was from Tyrone. That's not to say that there aren't loads of them around but I havent met them.

There would be about 3 or 4 other contractors I have worked with who I would describe as good and trustworthy to the point where you know they are using the proper materials and not cutting corners.

In my 30+ years of experience in this sector I have to say that I have encountered dozens of so called contractors/builders who I wouldn't give a box of Lego to.

I have no idea what experiences other professionals have in other counties but I sincerely hope the ratio of good/bad builders is higher than what I have encountered.

just do it

Sinnerboy

I fully appreciate why I need building professionals. However the converse argument is if builders were reputable and on their game I shouldn't need to hire someone to look over their shoulder. It is only because I'm somewhat of a perfectionist (or possibly anally retentive - take your pick;)) and like alot of the self-builders on here that have pushed the boat out in the pursuit of their perfect home that I have upskilled. It is possible to buy a car worth more than a cheap house yet I don't need an army of motoring professionals to accompany me to the car showroom. I trust the car company has done all the background design, build and finish to the level they advertise and are compliant with what ever regulations apply. So for someone completely niave to construction it isn't too much of the stretch of the imagination that when they employ a good experienced, reputable builder with plenty references that they should get the whole package (leaving the builder to employ/ use building professionals for the various elements as need be). And if the builder fulfilled his role as project manager he would do that.

As a novice to construction one doesn't anticipate the number of different professionals involved, the novice thinks if I get a good experienced builder then that will do. And why wouldn't they? Most people don't want to upskill and it works out ok. Yes I know now, and yes all folks involved in the industry know, but a novice ought to be forgiven for not knowing.

sinnerboy wrote: »

Would you prefer us to absent ourselves from here and leave you alone with all the other and to make it “nicer” for martin123 and all the other builders who are too shy to contribute here.

I think you know the answer to that and as already stated I

just do it wrote: »

can appreciate why this is so.

My regret is there aren't more builders on here to add to the debate. But then again

just do it wrote: »

Builders like to build and not read and study.

I should of course have said "builders like to build and not read, study and post on internet forums!" I went to school and play football with lads that are predominantly in construction. These guys' goal in school was to finish school as quick as they could and get out working. Books, computers, typing and internet forums aren't for them as opposed to being

sinnerboy wrote: »

too shy to contribute here.

The overall point being all the Mods from what I can gather have 3rd level qualifications, are interested in reading and furthering their knowledge and therefore attracted to this forum. Builders for the most part are the antithesis of this. Their knowlegde is usually by apprenticing and word of mouth, not study, books and computers.

sinnerboy wrote: »

Where are all the builders to re dress this bias ?

Posting on internet forums is not their thing;).

sinnerboy wrote: »

Why aren't they posting ?

Posting on internet forums is not their thing;).

just do it

Look I'm not interested in an argument on this, I'm just trying to represent another point of view. My goal is to build my home but unfortunately due to financial constraints this may take another few years. In '09 when we got planning I thought we'd be celebrating Christmas 2011 in the new house! At least wide cavity construction is no longer novel and passive standard or near passive standard windows & doors are affordable and a base of build design knowledge and experience is out there as opposed to being theoretical.







Edit: Jeez, I knew I shouldn't have replied to this thread

just do it

muffler wrote: »

Some worse than others though.

On a personal level (in my own county) I have only ever encountered one contractor who I could describe as first class and he was from Tyrone. That's not to say that there aren't loads of them around but I havent met them.

There would be about 3 or 4 other contractors I have worked with who I would describe as good and trustworthy to the point where you know they are using the proper materials and not cutting corners.

In my 30+ years of experience in this sector I have to say that I have encountered dozens of so called contractors/builders who I wouldn't give a box of Lego to.

I have no idea what experiences other professionals have in other counties but I sincerely hope the ratio of good/bad builders is higher than what I have encountered.

And that is very disappointing and disheartening to hear. I supose with an ex-TD over CFI and the cosy relationship between the construction industry and the political establishment it's hard to see this changing any time soon. A huge change in culture would be required.

A fella called fish

The problem is that a significant percentage of small builders I've worked with in the past (large well know contracting firms excluded) have ZERO understanding of structural principles. I firmly believe that all builders should be forced to complete a minimum 1 year course in construction technology/ basic structural principles (NOT RUN BY FAS!!).

I've had builders who deviated from my design because "jasus now, this is a better job." I then ask them to remove and rebuild properly once I explain to them the structural implications and knock on effects of what they've done.

I'm a Chartered Structural Engineer, doing this 9 years in Ireland and there are only a handful builders who I would happily recommend. No doubt there are some more, but I haven't met them. That said, I've had nothing but good experiences with larger contracting firms in Ireland.

As for your point on certs/opinions..we provide opinions on compliance. And as designers, the opinion relates to design..not construction. It's the builders responsibility to build in accordance with the design. Many builders do not realise how exposed they are when they deviate from design.

sinnerboy

Moderator note. Some posts have been removed from this thread to keep a better focus on the topic

sinnerboy

just do it wrote: »

I fully appreciate why I need building professionals. However the converse argument is if builders were reputable and on their game I shouldn't need to hire someone to look over their shoulder.

That's not a converse argument . That's like saying if your Granny was a man she be your Grandad.

just do it wrote: »

It is only because I'm somewhat of a perfectionist (or possibly anally retentive - take your pick;)) and like alot of the self-builders on here that have pushed the boat out in the pursuit of their perfect home that I have upskilled.

To simply comply with today's minimum building regulations for energy conservation standards is onerous. Forget perfection. You need a professional just to get you over the minimum legal requirement. . This is tough , I do this for a living and I don't find it easy.

just do it wrote: »

It is possible to buy a car worth more than a cheap house yet I don't need an army of motoring professionals to accompany me to the car showroom. I trust the car company has done all the background design, build and finish to the level they advertise and are compliant with what ever regulations apply. So for someone completely niave to construction it isn't too much of the stretch of the imagination that when they employ a good experienced, reputable builder with plenty references that they should get the whole package (leaving the builder to employ/ use building professionals for the various elements as need be).

As a novice to construction one doesn't anticipate the number of different professionals involved, the novice thinks if I get a good experienced builder then that will do. And why wouldn't they? Most people don't want to upskill and it works out ok. Yes I know now, and yes all folks involved in the industry know, but a novice ought to be forgiven for not knowing.

Many , many would heartily endorse what you say here and thus http://passivehouseplus.ie/news/government/two-thirds-of-new-homes-fail-energy-efficiency-rules.html

just do it wrote: »

And if the builder fulfilled his role as project manager

Again , if your Granny was a man.....

just do it wrote: »

My regret is there aren't more builders on here to add to the debate. But then again I should of course have said "builders like to build and not read, study and post on internet forums!" I went to school and play football with lads that are predominantly in construction. These guys' goal in school was to finish school as quick as they could and get out working. Books, computers, typing and internet forums aren't for them

Of course buildings need skilled people to physically build them . But buildings are not only the product of physical labor they are also the product of intellectual efforts too. They must be to respond to planning and building control legislation's in the first place and to satisfy the clients brief in the second place. Many clients naievly expect this to be met without any cost or input . Do the client and the builder share the exact same understanding of what is to be done and when and for how much ? Too often the answer is no. Which can be just as unfair for the builder as well as the client.

just do it wrote: »

The overall point being all the Mods from what I can gather have 3rd level qualifications, are interested in reading and furthering their knowledge and therefore attracted to this forum. Builders for the most part are the antithesis of this. Their knowlegde is usually by apprenticing and word of mouth, not study, books and computers. Posting on internet forums is not their thing;).

Well yes builders excell at cutting , digging , drilling etc , etc and all the while the legislation surrounding buildings expands and expands.

They don't like study.

Or internet forums .

Why do you need a professional again ?

martinn123

Well perhaps, we can consider the '' small'' extensions for a moment, say under 40 SqM, exempt from planning.

Is it that there are no ''Builders'' who can give guidelines as to whether Planning is reguired......I think so, as I am asked this regularly, and I try to give an honest answer, If I am unsure I refer client to a professional.

There is some confusion, even here on the planning reguirements, for example

' A wall going over a Sewer Pipe''....I have read conflicting posts here, as to whether this remains an ''exempted dev'' etc.

Finally I need to apologise for some posts, now deleted, thanks to the Mod's for their patience