thin cow not able to get up

Tomjim

I have a thin cow due to calve in 6 weeks time, she is very thin and I am giving her 2 lb a meal for the last month. In the last few dayss she is getting it hard to get up (she is on slats) Are there any quick fixes here, can I give her anything to help her up such as soya?.

This morning when she wasn't able to get up, she pulled herself over to the silage.

bbam

Get her off the slats onto a bedded shed..
Has she been getting minerals at all ?? If not its time to start..
If she's downer is she drinking at all? If she get dehydrated it just spirals down quickly, maybe a couple of litres of warm electrolyte would be a good start..

I've been told that warm coffee is a good job to get a cow up, Jar of coffee into bucket of warm water... I've never done it, and I'd be doing the electrolytes first..

There is a common mistake that a dehydrated animal will just be thirsty..
Once their electrolyte balance id disturbed;

• they cant absorb the nutrition from their food near as efficiently, so the 2kg meal might be wasted.
• their blood pressure drops making them feel like dirt, this kills their appetite so feeding becomes a problem.
• since they cant absorb what they should from their feed they are prone to scour which can become septic quite quickly.

mf240

I would suspect that there is twins in her. If she were my cow I would take her off slats and into a straw shed, ideally one with a dept of dung. I would get the vet to look at her. Is she firm in dung or scoury?

jomoloney

get her off the slats asap straw bedded or out the filed if the weather heats


minerals ?......pre calver & some thing like ketol or chanantol

Tomjim

she has always been scoury, ie she has been scoury for the last 7 years

td5man

Tomjim wrote: »

I have a thin cow due to calve in 6 weeks time, she is very thin and I am giving her 2 lb a meal for the last month. In the last few dayss she is getting it hard to get up (she is on slats) Are there any quick fixes here, can I give her anything to help her up such as soya?.

This morning when she wasn't able to get up, she pulled herself over to the silage.

I have a cull cow that proved in calf in a similar condition shell get up on her own but wont get up when you try to put her up .
Probably not a lot you can do at this stage other than put her in a bedded shed .
Any thin cows i have pre calving i give them the milkers tmr for a few weeks before they calve .
Ive heard of coffee or a hot whiskey/poitin being used.

delaval

Tomjim wrote: »

I have a thin cow due to calve in 6 weeks time, she is very thin and I am giving her 2 lb a meal for the last month. In the last few dayss she is getting it hard to get up (she is on slats) Are there any quick fixes here, can I give her anything to help her up such as soya?.

This morning when she wasn't able to get up, she pulled herself over to the silage.

If you have time get her off slatts and re hydrate but you really know what needs to be done. The out come will not be good either way

whelan1

Tomjim wrote: »

I have a thin cow due to calve in 6 weeks time, she is very thin and I am giving her 2 lb a meal for the last month. In the last few dayss she is getting it hard to get up (she is on slats) Are there any quick fixes here, can I give her anything to help her up such as soya?.

This morning when she wasn't able to get up, she pulled herself over to the silage.

am i missing something here, whaty does soya do? have one myself at the minute have her in a straw bedded shed getting meal and silage and minerals

bbam

whelan1 wrote: »

whaty does soya do?

Nothing !

whelan1

bbam wrote: »

Nothing !

was wondering

kowtow

I have the same problem with a cow down since Thursday, calved a month. She is the thinnest of the mob and had a big bull calf who has been suckling on her.

Went down Thursday, Vet came out, glucose IV and she got up (mainly the shock of the needle)... legs were fine .. but went down again overnight.

She's been down (on straw) since Friday morning. As well as chewing hay she's eating about 4-5 kg of Maize meal and ration combined laced with glucose and drinking water and glucose when we can get it in her. We're turning her from side to side when we can to keep the gas out. Dung is normal, perhaps a bit on the dry side - but no sign of getting up..

Any ideas 'cos we are running out!?

jomoloney

vets' motto for March #

"if it's in ... get it out
if it's out ... put it in
if it's down ... give it calcium "

greysides

Quit using glucose orally!

Use glycerine.

Or propylene glycol.


Check for any holes in your anthelmintic regime, ask a vet if you're not 100% confident about wormer/flukicide use.

In college, I remember being told that glucose wasn't to be used in treating Twin Lamb Disease, that glycerine or propylene glycol should be used.
This is due to the 'quick hit' nature of glucose on the blood sugar levels.

Glycerine is a complex carbohydrate and its' breakdown will ensure a longer supply of energy as it has less effect on insulin secretion which would burn off the glucose produced by the breakdown rapidly.

Common sugar is sucrose, glucose + fructose combined.

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.c...0067Z/abstract

Sheep received an intravenous infusion of 1.1 M fructose solution for 12 min at 0.5 or 3 g/kg body weight. Controls received saline. During fructose infusion increases of blood fructose, glucose, sorbitol and insulin levels were observed. There were no changes in levels of ammonia and uric acid. These results suggest that in sheep, unlike human beings and rats, fructose is metabolised mainly by sorbitol dehydrogenase. This encourages the use of fructose for sheep as a source of energy under conditions of high energy demand, e.g. twin pregnancy, ketonaemia and postoperative conditions.


Perhaps, a combination of the two would be useful in Twin Lamb Disease, maybe for cows too.

vinne

If a cow is thin two months before calving the protein comes off her back ,that's where the soya bean meal can help . If the cow is down she will need the vet , no point injecting or dosing with this or that. Just get the vet ,you'd be suprised how fast she Might recover.

yellow50HX

As above,

If a cow goes down on slats get her into a bedded shed or into a good sheltered field.
Plenty of minerals for cows precalving
Water and meal but also gloulose
Tray of eggs, plenty of protein

If cow is after calving a bottle of cal/mag under the skin to balance out her minerals

For a cow that is wobbly on her legs, lift her with the tractor but let the tractor take her weight to keep her staedy and used to standing again. if she falls lift her again and keep doing it until she is storng enough to get up herself. Takes patience but has to be done.

greysides

vinne wrote: »

If a cow is thin two months before calving the protein comes off her back ,that's where the soya bean meal can help . If the cow is down she will need the vet , no point injecting or dosing with this or that. Just get the vet ,you'd be suprised how fast she Might recover.

A cow under pressure will first utilise fat stores and then burn muscles to try to produce energy. 'Milking off their backs' is the burning of fat stores. It's energy she needs right now, not protein.

Massey10

kowtow was your cow out on grass? i have a 2 year old after calving a few weeks unable to stand on her own .Vet is unsure about whats wrong did all the tests he could .

kowtow

Massey10 wrote: »

kowtow was your cow out on grass? i have a 2 year old after calving a few weeks unable to stand on her own .Vet is unsure about whats wrong did all the tests he could .

Hi Massey

No, she's been in the shed and the yard since January. Eating Hay ad-lib with some ration since calving. She's also a two year old.

Having said that she and her mates came in thin.. long story but we acquired them standing on land we bought late in the year and they had been on thin pickings all along. Calves have been healthy and are all doing well - although her monster calf is beginning to annoy the other Dams, pinching whatever milk he can get away with while his mother is down.

Just been out with her now giving her a final bucketful for the evening. She seems cheerful enough, happy to eat as best she can in that position and drinks the buckets offered to her. I'm beginning to think she is growing accustomed to table service.

The old cubicle shed we have them in is a wee bit low to get a machine in otherwise I'd try and and sling her up... might have to figure out something tomorrow as she's driving me mad just lying there.

freedominacup

greysides wrote: »

A cow under pressure will first utilise fat stores and then burn muscles to try to produce energy. 'Milking off their backs' is the burning of fat stores. It's energy she needs right now, not protein.

A cow can break protein down to extract the energy from it if she is in an energy defecit situation but AFAIK there is no mechanism to reverse this process. Cows store energy as greysides said in fat and in extremis they can burn muscle but I don't think they can store protein. The only thing excess protein gives you is expensive p**s.

kowtow, I had a cow, shortly before Christmas, that wasn't long calved, went thin quickly, started giving very little milk and wasn't eating much, it ended up being a Displaced Abomasum. A quick operation and now she is perfect. Although if she is 2 months calved, it is probably a bit late for that, but no harm in asking the vet.

Massey10

kowtow wrote: »

Hi Massey

No, she's been in the shed and the yard since January. Eating Hay ad-lib with some ration since calving. She's also a two year old.

Having said that she and her mates came in thin.. long story but we acquired them standing on land we bought late in the year and they had been on thin pickings all along. Calves have been healthy and are all doing well - although her monster calf is beginning to annoy the other Dams, pinching whatever milk he can get away with while his mother is down.

Just been out with her now giving her a final bucketful for the evening. She seems cheerful enough, happy to eat as best she can in that position and drinks the buckets offered to her. I'm beginning to think she is growing accustomed to table service.

The old cubicle shed we have them in is a wee bit low to get a machine in otherwise I'd try and and sling her up... might have to figure out something tomorrow as she's driving me mad just lying there.

If i lift her she can stand and walk around but is getting slowly weaker, still good to eat and drink .Vet thinks it may be botulism but cant be sure .

delaval

You all must have lots of time on your hands, cows down longer than 24 hrs needs to be removed so you can concentrate on your other stock. Lifting cows with tractors an animal welfare issiue in my book.
I know that you will all jump down my neck and tell me 'I had a cow that got up after a fortnight' but you all know that is the exception!!
I would move on and make sure none of my other cows are in the same position

whelan1

Massey10 wrote: »

If i lift her she can stand and walk around but is getting slowly weaker, still good to eat and drink .Vet thinks it may be botulism but cant be sure .

do they not die very quick from botulism?

freedominacup

delaval wrote: »

You all must have lots of time on your hands, cows down longer than 24 hrs needs to be removed so you can concentrate on your other stock. Lifting cows with tractors an animal welfare issiue in my book.
I know that you will all jump down my neck and tell me 'I had a cow that got up after a fortnight' but you all know that is the exception!!
I would move on and make sure none of my other cows are in the same position

We lost a couple of downer cows last year. All the same stopped calving despite the fact that it wasn't a difficult calving. All of the calves either came easily when we came on them or they had the calf but the swollen heads told the story that they had stopped for a good while. I googled it in desperation and any research said bsically the same thing in relation to paralysis. TLC and lots of it fast. The best cure for a cow with paralysis is a farm relief operator. She needs time and you can't give it to her if you are tied up with all of the other essentials that must be done daily. They need to be moved constantly, legs put moving, turned from one side to the other. The researchers tried various medical interventions but the best success rate was with the cows who had a lot of time put into them. I'd disagree with delaval slightly about the lifting gear but it is either going to work quickly or not at all.

The only one we saved last year we saved because we had most stock out to grass and a lot of the fieldwork done so we were able to spend around 6 hours working on her on the first day. We lifted her no more than three times, milked her and fed her milk back to her straight away (she became a bit of a nuisance after with calf milk buckets at the front of the parlour). She took her own weight fairly quickly on the first lift and was moving with a bit of support on the second. we had to lift her on the second morning but once up she started grazing strongly. We just kept getting her up every hour the second day and she was in the parlour after 4-5 days. We persevered too long with some of the others and I'd agree with delaval there's an animal welfare issue after the first day or two if you aren't making serious progress.

td5man

whelan1 wrote: »

do they not die very quick from botulism?

There supposed to be in a lot of pain with botulism afaik

td5man

delaval wrote: »

You all must have lots of time on your hands, cows down longer than 24 hrs needs to be removed so you can concentrate on your other stock. Lifting cows with tractors an animal welfare issiue in my book.
I know that you will all jump down my neck and tell me 'I had a cow that got up after a fortnight' but you all know that is the exception!!
I would move on and make sure none of my other cows are in the same position

Neighbour gets rid of them as soon as they go down, used to think he was mad we would be messing lifting them for weeks and end up getting rid of them .

greysides

whelan1 wrote: »

do they not die very quick from botulism?

Not always, depends on the dose. Once they go down, they won't get up and walk intermittently, they stay down till they die or recover or are put-down.

greysides

A week is usually long enough to get an idea of the likely outcome and take the appropriate action. 24 hours is too short in my opinion.

micky mouse

Plus one. Had one last year was down for 3 days,ya have to give them a chance.Other one years ago,down for six weeks ,came alright,lot of tlc though.The one that was down for six weeks was out from the start.Need to get them out if weather allows,cause no matter how much strawwill still be incline to get cuts and sores when trying to get up

micky mouse

kowtow wrote: »

Hi Massey

No, she's been in the shed and the yard since January. Eating Hay ad-lib with some ration since calving. She's also a two year old.

Having said that she and her mates came in thin.. long story but we acquired them standing on land we bought late in the year and they had been on thin pickings all along. Calves have been healthy and are all doing well - although her monster calf is beginning to annoy the other Dams, pinching whatever milk he can get away with while his mother is down.

Just been out with her now giving her a final bucketful for the evening. She seems cheerful enough, happy to eat as best she can in that position and drinks the buckets offered to her. I'm beginning to think she is growing accustomed to table service.

The old cubicle shed we have them in is a wee bit low to get a machine in otherwise I'd try and and sling her up... might have to figure out something tomorrow as she's driving me mad just lying there.

There is a balloon that you can get,might be an option if low shed.Pull under the cow and fill it up with air.Vets might have one or maybe farm relief services

freedominacup

greysides wrote: »

A week is usually long enough to get an idea of the likely outcome and take the appropriate action. 24 hours is too short in my opinion.

How long would you keep lifting them for?

greysides

I think you need to be very careful how you lift them. Hip clamps need to be well cushioned. I don't think you could lift them often enough in a farming day. Leave up for 10-20 minutes at a time. You usually get a hint how long by the reaction of the cow. If she takes weight well then leave her for 20 minutes or until she's getting weak. If she won't take weight at all, even after a few minutes physio on the legs you needn't keep her up too long. You're trying to balance the good of the lift v. the harm the lifting method may be doing. After a few days you'll see how she's doing and at about a week you need to make a decision.

The way the cow supports herself down helps give an indication too- the nearer to normal the better. Legs both out behind is bad.

If she's crawling around herself or shifting from side to side herself you're in with a good chance.

yellow50HX

greysides wrote: »

I think you need to be very careful how you lift them. Hip clamps need to be well cushioned. I don't think you could lift them often enough in a farming day. Leave up for 10-20 minutes at a time. You usually get a hint how long by the reaction of the cow. If she takes weight well then leave her for 20 minutes or until she's getting weak. If she won't take weight at all, even after a few minutes physio on the legs you needn't keep her up too long. You're trying to balance the good of the lift v. the harm the lifting method may be doing. After a few days you'll see how she's doing and at about a week you need to make a decision.

The way the cow supports herself down helps give an indication too- the nearer to normal the better. Legs both out behind is bad.

If she's crawling around herself or shifting from side to side herself you're in with a good chance.

We use a combination of slings and a ibc bag. I cut the ibc bag down on two sides its like a blacket with lifting eyes. We put the sling under the front shoulder and lift her slightly, then slide the bag under her as far down as we can. The bag will support her evenly between the legs when lifting.

pakalasa

I've help lift 700Kg bullocks up out of water trenches with large lifting straps (slings) in behind the front legs. The straps are wide, 6" or more, so don't cut into the bullock. Like the idea of the IBC bags.

Tomjim

got the cow up this morning and put her into straw bedded shed.

Is there any type of feed I should be giving her now

delaval

Tomjim wrote: »

got the cow up this morning and put her into straw bedded shed.

Is there any type of feed I should be giving her now

That's great news. I'm glad you didn't listen to me. Plenty of meal and some molasses really good for energy

whelan1

had cow went down yesterday in cubicl shed. she did the splits. was not looking good. lifted her out and put her in straw shed. lifted her 4 times today and she can stand on her own. yipee

Massey10

had cow went down yesterday in cubicl shed. she did the splits. was not looking good. lifted her out and put her in straw shed. lifted her 4 times today and she can stand on her own. yipee

sheds can get very slippery this time of year with the dry weather and less cows inside

pakalasa

When a cow is coming up to calving does she loose some strength in the back legs. When she starts to soften and the pins drop, does it affect the muscles at the back too. The smallest cow I have got caught up in the cubicles 3 days in a row. Yesterday, I ended up letting her out in a field for a finish. Feeling she's going to calf tonight too.:mad:

greysides

pakalasa wrote: »

When a cow is coming up to calving does she loose some strength in the back legs.

The hormone involved in the pins relaxing only affects ligaments, AFAIK. On the other hand, all cows go low in blood calcium around calving and low calcium does affect muscle strength.

grazeaway

Tomjim wrote: »

got the cow up this morning and put her into straw bedded shed.

Is there any type of feed I should be giving her now

Happy days

Richk2012

pakalasa wrote: »

When a cow is coming up to calving does she loose some strength in the back legs. When she starts to soften and the pins drop, does it affect the muscles at the back too. The smallest cow I have got caught up in the cubicles 3 days in a row. Yesterday, I ended up letting her out in a field for a finish. Feeling she's going to calf tonight too.:mad:

Was your feeling right pak???

pakalasa

Richk2012 wrote: »

Was your feeling right pak???

No. Pins not down fully yet either. She's gone 296 days to ADX.
And this cow has caught me out in other years calving early.