Heating Controls

Merch

Ok, I have a query about heating controls as I have seen some recently and want to ask about them, but also as I have made a few enquiries regarding boiler and heating controls on boards already, Im going to try keep my q's in one thread. My own thread, so I can follow it and come back to it, instead of searching for other peoples threads (that I hijacked) to see what I asked and what answer I was given, hopefully people are ok with that.


I'll try do a brief overview of my system and what Im looking for, then go to my questions about heating controls.

1. My boiler is getting on a bit (Ideal classic FF250, nearly 16years old) but its still going, despite a few repairs which were needed, its hasnt given that much trouble or cost that much to keep going really (fingers crossed I didnt jinx myself as I need it to hold out for a while, possibly for another few years). The actual heating is not zoned, it is one supply pipe from the boiler that sticks out into the hotpress that feeds all the rads (up/downstairs), and also the hot water.

At the moment I want to get heating controls as currently its just a mechanical timeclock and the boiler thermostat.(there is also a manual shutoff valve for the rads).

Im not sure if it was the cold weather recently, but the last two bills were up a bit, other people have told me similar about their own bills recently.
But I was planning for a replacement boiler, as if the current one claps, I dont want to be caught on the hop and have no research done. Id prefer not to rush into it and get the wrong one, plus as I intend (thats the plan) to get some insulation added, the size of boiler required may be smaller than originally intended, that or i have to get a make where the output can be adjusted (I presume within a certain range and set at install or possibly if any insulation is added after then so its possible the boiler can be adjusted at a later date if its needed).
I have looked at some boiler info briefly. The replacement was planned for this year, but thats gone out the window and could be up to two years away, the money just wont be there.

I didnt settle on any boiler make yet anyway, but saw some interesting info on Ariston (which I was recommended as a possible contender on boards), on the other hand, I saw Ariston was criticised elsewhere for parts availability and price, but I am unaware if that is accurate or still correct if it was the case previously.
The other names that came up were Viessmann and WorchesterBosch. I think all have boilers with Stainless steel heat exchangers, I dont know where the fan is located,but was told by a plumber that at the top was not a good design due to the rising heat from the boiler?. Ive heard of things which I thought were a worse design.

What interested me about the Ariston boilers was it showed how the heat demand is managed, the boiler has an auto feature (assuming you have both an outside temp sensor and a modulating room sensor fitted).
I cant find any info that says Viessman or Worchester Bosch have an auto feature, but they do have modulating boilers, so I assume they have their own modulating controls.
I thought such features would be a good idea in a boiler that might be expected to last 16-18-20years??? Or do newer boilers last as long??

Now, my main questions.

A.The Ariston boilers seem to have integrated controls in an LCD panel on the front of the boiler, Im not sure if that IS A BOILER TIMER CONTROL, ie two channel, heat and hot water timer or is that just the boiler controls?

B.Im thinking currently, that if I get the best budget 5/2 or 7 day controller and get that fitted to the heating now, one with a zone valve for the rad supply and valve for the hot water tank too (along with some thermostatic rad valves). I thought that might save money in the interim by having a more accurate control of the boiler turning on and off and not overheating the water/rads when its not required.
Am I wasting money buying and having it fitted if Im going to replace it with a boiler as above in A. if it has integrated controls?
I just want to check, but I think not, mostly as I dont know how much longer my boiler will last.

C. Originally, Id intended to get a 2 channel 5/2 or a 7 day programme control timer and have a programmable thermostat so I could automatically set the temperatures at different times of the day, if thats what programmable stats do? I assume it is.
I saw online a heatmiser room stat like that, but they cost a few quid, whereas a normal room stat cost much less. If I was to end up getting a boiler that can modulate, would one of these programmable stats be a waste of money as Id have to replace it with an even dearer modulating stat? or are the Heatmiser stats modulating and capable of being used with an Ariston/Viessmann/WorBosch?

D. I have seen recently a controller make (and other parts) named Sauter.
I never heard the name before and when I googled it, the searches showed Industrial control equipment for temperature and other things. That they make industrial equipment encourages me somewhat, another search showed some domestic controls.
As I have heard of complaints of certain other makes of control valves, I wondered did anyone have any experience of Sauter valves, stats controllers, are they any good?
ie reliable, long lasting??

Basically I am planning for what I want in a boiler, ie suitability,reliability,control,efficiency. Im trying to strike a balance between which of those I think is more important.

shane0007

It sounds like you have a drop down system that cannot be zoned into 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs & hot water. You can only zone into 2 zones, heating & hot water. If you are availing of the SEAI grant, then the only extra you will have to do is install TRV's on 50% of your rads (but probably best to install on all except the one that is located in same location as the room thermostat), install a timeclock on your hw cylinder immersion & possible upgrade your pipework earth bonding.

Merch wrote: »

What interested me about the Ariston boilers was it showed how the heat demand is managed, the boiler has an auto feature (assuming you have both an outside temp sensor and a modulating room sensor fitted).
I cant find any info that says Viessman or Worchester Bosch have an auto feature, but they do have modulating boilers, so I assume they have their own modulating controls.
I thought such features would be a good idea in a boiler that might be expected to last 16-18-20years??? Or do newer boilers last as long??

Ariston have a plug in outside temperature feature that have tremendous advantages. Basically, if the outside temp is low, it will know that it has a larger delta T to contend with so it will work harder to achieve the desired temperature quicker. If the outside temp is high, it knows it does not have to operate at full power to deal with a small delta T.
The Auto feature does not require the outside temp sensor but if fitted it will use the information from it. Basically, the Auto feature operates on a slower start to achieve a more consistent curve to the desired temp but then modulates to maintain a flat line curve to maintain a consistent desired temp.
It's like the cruise control of a car. From stop, if you press resume, the car does not wheel spin to the set speed of 100kph but does a more consistent acceleration. If it meets an uphill, the revs increase to compensate & likewise if meets a downhill, the revs decrease. The Ariston Auto feature behaves very similar & calculates the most efficient way to arrive & maintain the desired temp. If it is very cold & remains cold, it increases the power, but as it fells heat back on the return, it throttles back, etc.

Regarding lifespans of boilers, all boilers old & new can last far longer than expected. It all depends on how well the are looked after & more importantly, what system they are installed in (problem systems destroy boilers).
If all things are equal, manufacturers usually refer to "Efficient Boiler Lifespan". The efficient boiler lifespan is usually 15 years. This is a magic figure that is based upon technology. Technology will have surpassed the boiler installed 15 years ago by so much, it would be cheaper to replace as the efficiency savings will be worthwhile.

Merch wrote: »

A.The Ariston boilers seem to have integrated controls in an LCD panel on the front of the boiler, Im not sure if that IS A BOILER TIMER CONTROL, ie two channel, heat and hot water timer or is that just the boiler controls?

Yes, Ariston boilers come with excellent internal controls that can be adapted to suit the individual system, thus improving on overall efficiency. It is not a time control but you can have a single channel timeclock built in, but this would not suit a fully zoned system. It would be better to install an external two channel timeclock. The Ariston parameters can control the modulation of the circulating pump, boiler power output, boiler parameters that affect the external system operation & much more.

Merch wrote: »

B.Im thinking currently, that if I get the best budget 5/2 or 7 day controller and get that fitted to the heating now, one with a zone valve for the rad supply and valve for the hot water tank too (along with some thermostatic rad valves). I thought that might save money in the interim by having a more accurate control of the boiler turning on and off and not overheating the water/rads when its not required.
Am I wasting money buying and having it fitted if Im going to replace it with a boiler as above in A. if it has integrated controls?
I just want to check, but I think not, mostly as I dont know how much longer my boiler will last.

Nearly all digital timeclocks can operate 5/2 or 7 day or even 24 hour. It is usually just flicking a switch inside or at the back of the controller. They can also adapt the number of on/off's per day from 1 to 3.
This is a very worth while & efficient feature that can suit the individual's lifestyle.

Merch wrote: »

C. Originally, Id intended to get a 2 channel 5/2 or a 7 day programme control timer and have a programmable thermostat so I could automatically set the temperatures at different times of the day, if thats what programmable stats do? I assume it is.
I saw online a heatmiser room stat like that, but they cost a few quid, whereas a normal room stat cost much less. If I was to end up getting a boiler that can modulate, would one of these programmable stats be a waste of money as Id have to replace it with an even dearer modulating stat? or are the Heatmiser stats modulating and capable of being used with an Ariston/Viessmann/WorBosch?

It is best IMHO to keep it as a simple S Plan installation. Programmable stats are fine if you want to keep running upstairs to hit the boost or something else but a central timeclock is always much better & more convenient. Just ensure the room thermostat is wired with a neutral & not with just a live in & live out.

Merch wrote: »

D. I have seen recently a controller make (and other parts) named Sauter.
I never heard the name before and when I googled it, the searches showed Industrial control equipment for temperature and other things. That they make industrial equipment encourages me somewhat, another search showed some domestic controls.
As I have heard of complaints of certain other makes of control valves, I wondered did anyone have any experience of Sauter valves, stats controllers, are they any good?
ie reliable, long lasting??

Sauter is EPH
http://www.ephcontrols.com/
They are decent enough. I personally prefer Myson motorised valves. The EPH timeclock is very handy for the Ariston if it is wired directly or through a stat as they can operate as volt free contacts. If it is an S Plan then is makes no odds as the volt free contact will be made through the grey & aux on the motorised valves fed from the 12v DC of the PCB itself.

Merch

shane0007 wrote: »

It sounds like you have a drop down system that cannot be zoned into 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs & hot water. You can only zone into 2 zones, heating & hot water. If you are availing of the SEAI grant, then the only extra you will have to do is install TRV's on 50% of your rads (but probably best to install on all except the one that is located in same location as the room thermostat), install a timeclock on your hw cylinder immersion & possible upgrade your pipework earth bonding.

Yes, Im sure it is a drop down, I have concrete floors, having said that I have never pulled off any plasterboard, but it looks like the supply pipe goes to the hot press through the manual valve and then distributes through the house.
I only want two zones (hot water and heating) it would still be an improvement and access to the pipes is reasonably accessible at the hotpress (well better access than anywhere else). Plus, I think it would be too difficult/extra cost to try and seperate the upstairs and downstairs into seperate zones as it would mean pulling up carpet, flooring etc.

I did not realise that about the SEAI for the thermostatic valves having to be on 50% of the rads, I think it would be practical to have them on all the bedrooms if the work is being done anyway, that'd be nearly half (4up, 4 down), plus at least a couple (but probably most) downstairs.

I dont have an immersion, none fitted, wiring there, but no element.
Its also why I want to fit a 2 channel (preferably digital timer) so I can heat water only when its needed, as it heats when the rads are on, and sometimes thats a waste as its not required.

I'm a bit uncertain why the bonding would need to be upgraded?? all the motorised valves I have seen are metal.


Ariston have a plug in outside temperature feature that have tremendous advantages. Basically, if the outside temp is low, it will know that it has a larger delta T to contend with so it will work harder to achieve the desired temperature quicker. If the outside temp is high, it knows it does not have to operate at full power to deal with a small delta T.
The Auto feature does not require the outside temp sensor but if fitted it will use the information from it. Basically, the Auto feature operates on a slower start to achieve a more consistent curve to the desired temp but then modulates to maintain a flat line curve to maintain a consistent desired temp.
It's like the cruise control of a car. From stop, if you press resume, the car does not wheel spin to the set speed of 100kph but does a more consistent acceleration. If it meets an uphill, the revs increase to compensate & likewise if meets a downhill, the revs decrease. The Ariston Auto feature behaves very similar & calculates the most efficient way to arrive & maintain the desired temp. If it is very cold & remains cold, it increases the power, but as it fells heat back on the return, it throttles back, etc.

I got some of the Ariston literature, I had a look at it, it explains in a few diagrams how it limits the peaks of heating, like overuns. Does the boiler work in its modulating mode with a normal mechanical thermostat? or even a programmable one? I see there is an Ariston modulating room sensor, which I assume is their room thermostat that is designed to operate with their boilers, does it help with modulation better than a normal stat?

It all depends on how well the are looked after & more importantly, what system they are installed in (problem systems destroy boilers).
If all things are equal, manufacturers usually refer to "Efficient Boiler Lifespan". The efficient boiler lifespan is usually 15 years. This is a magic figure that is based upon technology. Technology will have surpassed the boiler installed 15 years ago by so much, it would be cheaper to replace as the efficiency savings will be worthwhile.

I have reached that already, in that regard I already feel I have gotten good work out of it, a few more years would be good though.

Ariston boilers come with excellent internal controls that can be adapted to suit the individual system, thus improving on overall efficiency. It is not a time control but you can have a single channel timeclock built in, but this would not suit a fully zoned system. It would be better to install an external two channel timeclock. The Ariston parameters can control the modulation of the circulating pump, boiler power output, boiler parameters that affect the external system operation & much more.


Nearly all digital timeclocks can operate 5/2 or 7 day or even 24 hour. It is usually just flicking a switch inside or at the back of the controller. They can also adapt the number of on/off's per day from 1 to 3.
This is a very worth while & efficient feature that can suit the individual's lifestyle.


It is best IMHO to keep it as a simple S Plan installation. Programmable stats are fine if you want to keep running upstairs to hit the boost or

I thought a programmable room stat would be used in conjunction with a (kitchen based) digital timeclock/heating channel controller.I assumed the programmeable stat would be able to set different temps for different times, instead of turning it up and down manually, but I thought this still had to be used in conjunction with the programmer/central timeclock timer?? which has the boost feature on it and the control (channels/timeclock)for turning on the heating or hot water as demanded.
It'll just be extra cost and complication anyway so probably wont bother, but I was planning on having two stats in parallel? to compensate for not being able to have two zones (if that makes sense) but more to be able to have control from upstairs, when up there (eg at night).one programmeable downstairs, (eg set to go low automatically at night for example) or if mechanical, to just turn it down before going to bed, and a mechanical one upstairs,
eg if the downstairs stat was set to say 16degrees at 11pm and later while in bed, I felt it was too cold, I could hop out of bed and dial up the mechanical clock to 18.
(lazy I know, but if its cold and anyone happens to know of a remote controlled one, then I will only have to put my hand outside of the duvet, instead of walking two feet, still its better then going ALL the way downstairs )
Its probably too much bother, plus the extra cost, on top of which I may end up changing the boiler and hence some of the controls.

something else but a central timeclock is always much better & more convenient. Just ensure the room thermostat is wired with a neutral & not with just a live in & live out.

I thought the room thermostat (a mechanical one) was just wired with live in and out? like a light switch, whats the advantage of the live and Neutral? there must have to be other Lives out? I still thought that might be dependant on the type (mech/digital) of thermostat.

Sauter is EPH
http://www.ephcontrols.com/
They are decent enough. I personally prefer Myson motorised valves. The EPH timeclock is very handy for the Ariston if it is wired directly or through a stat as they can operate as volt free contacts. If it is an S Plan then is makes no odds as the volt free contact will be made through the grey & aux on the motorised valves fed from the 12v DC of the PCB itself.

Any advantage to Myson? I just saw/was shown a pack with all the parts in it, I saw a different make also in a pack(Drayton), it seems like better value to buy the parts that way.

I think that I dont understand that volt free really, Im not sure that if its volt free what or how its switching anything. I found a boiler installation manual (pdf) for my boiler type and it shows only 3 connections (L,N,E), I want to ensure whatever wiring is installed now is suitable to a new boiler/and its controls at a later date (even if that means some extra wires have to be fitted and left unconnected even if not needed now).ie no point in putting wiring in and then having to upgrade it later for the want of doing it now.

12v DC? Im uncertain that my (current)boiler PCB has that or spare connections going by the pdf manual I located, I thought it all (including motorised valve control) was run on 230mains.

Does anyone have any pluses for another make, Viessamnn or Worchester bosch or even any other lesser known make? but preferably capable of the modulation feature.
Correct sized and suitability for operating at variable temperatures (summer/winter) and also Reliability are more important but also ease of maintenance are preferable to me for a replacement boiler, than even say high levels of efficiency as I assume most newer boilers will operate at a higher level of efficiency than my current boiler anyway.


I think upgrading the heating controls on the current boiler will be easier, quicker and cheaper to get done and looks like for the most part they will be useable on any replacement boiler.

shane0007

1. If you do not have an immersion, then no timeclock is required. The bonding is your pipework cross bonding.
2. All Band A gas boilers modulate, not just Ariston. Ariston just took a step further with greater controls that are adaptable to suit the individual installation the boiler is connected to.
3. Programmable stats can be wired in series with a timeclock. There is not much point though as they are not designed to operate on a timed on/off basis. They are time/temperature based. You have to tell it what temperature you wish during which time zone. If you want it off, you just set a low temperature.
4. Older rooms stats are live in live out. Modern stats are also live in live out but also a neutral. Older stats have an inaccuracy of approx 3-6C due to their reaction time. The neutral is wired to the stat anticipators which heats an tiny element within the stat to counteract the reaction time.
5. No advantage for the Myson only reliability. I never have problems with them but the EPH, I believe now comes with a 5 year warranty. I am more looking at them with a keener eye. I have started using their timeclocks for the volt free contacts & so far I like.
Your existing boiler is not volt free. I thought we were talking about replacing the boiler along with a heating control upgrade. Your installer will be able to handle which option you go with unless you are trying to wire it yourself. If so, you will not avail of the SEAI grant unless you are registered with them.

Merch

shane0007 wrote: »

1. If you do not have an immersion, then no timeclock is required. The bonding is your pipework cross bonding.
2. All Band A gas boilers modulate, not just Ariston. Ariston just took a step further with greater controls that are adaptable to suit the individual installation the boiler is connected to.
3. Programmable stats can be wired in series with a timeclock. There is not much point though as they are not designed to operate on a timed on/off basis. They are time/temperature based. You have to tell it what temperature you wish during which time zone. If you want it off, you just set a low temperature.
4. Older rooms stats are live in live out. Modern stats are also live in live out but also a neutral. Older stats have an inaccuracy of approx 3-6C due to their reaction time. The neutral is wired to the stat anticipators which heats an tiny element within the stat to counteract the reaction time.
5. No advantage for the Myson only reliability. I never have problems with them but the EPH, I believe now comes with a 5 year warranty. I am more looking at them with a keener eye. I have started using their timeclocks for the volt free contacts & so far I like.
Your existing boiler is not volt free. I thought we were talking about replacing the boiler along with a heating control upgrade. Your installer will be able to handle which option you go with unless you are trying to wire it yourself. If so, you will not avail of the SEAI grant unless you are registered with them.

I want to get someone to do it,(Im not registered as an RGI nor am I a plumber) but I want to have input, not just have someone put in something I find out later that doesnt suit/ or worse that it needs to be started all over.
eg, the the thing you mention about the live in live out only stat, wouldnt have known (especially the inaccuracy) and someone may have suggested fitting that, Id be none the wiser. Thats what Im trying to find out.

The heating control will come first but I want it to suit any replacement boiler that will come later.(even if it means putting in extra wiring now as it may be covered by the time a boiler is fitted.

Im waiting till its not so cold before getting anything done, so plan is by the end of the summer at the latest.

shane0007

If you wish to have all options available to you, regarding volt free contacts (most boilers are nowadays), then you have two options:
1. Run a separate two core cable from the boiler to the wiring centre and leave unconnected until further needed. It must be separate core otherwise 230v will interfere with it if it is in the same core.
2. Wire as normal & use a 230v AC relay for the switched live into the boiler. The relay will convert the switching contact from 230AC to volt free contacts.

Just make sure whoever you are using is capable of doing the job correctly once. I have seen far too many disastrous installs, only to cost the customer more to get somebody else in to correct the mess.

Merch

shane0007 wrote: »

If you wish to have all options available to you, regarding volt free contacts (most boilers are nowadays), then you have two options:
1. Run a separate two core cable from the boiler to the wiring centre and leave unconnected until further needed. It must be separate core otherwise 230v will interfere with it if it is in the same core.
2. Wire as normal & use a 230v AC relay for the switched live into the boiler. The relay will convert the switching contact from 230AC to volt free contacts.

Just make sure whoever you are using is capable of doing the job correctly once. I have seen far too many disastrous installs, only to cost the customer more to get somebody else in to correct the mess.

I assumed the wiring centre would be beside the boiler, not elsewhere, but it seems there are options for wiring anyway. I dont get the gist of this "volt free" or the purpose of it, I presume safety?

shane0007

Wiring centre in your particular case will most likely be in the hot press otherwise you will be running a lot of wires back to wiring centre at the boiler.

Nothing to do with safety. Reason for volt free contacts is really down to cost. It makes it cheaper to manufacture.

Merch

shane0007 wrote: »

Wiring centre in your particular case will most likely be in the hot press otherwise you will be running a lot of wires back to wiring centre at the boiler.

Nothing to do with safety. Reason for volt free contacts is really down to cost. It makes it cheaper to manufacture.

I see, I wouldnt have been aware of either of those paragraphs,
The more Qs I think of the more it seems to bring up.

I have some electrical experience but Im not an electrician, so things you are saying make sense.
Just wasnt really aware of the statement "volt free"
In a way of the two options you mentioned previously for wiring, I had wondered if the first option would need to be screened, but then thinking about it the second one is probably better anyway.

1. Run a separate two core cable from the boiler to the wiring centre and leave unconnected until further needed. It must be separate core otherwise 230v will interfere with it if it is in the same core.
2. Wire as normal & use a 230v AC relay for the switched live into the boiler. The relay will convert the switching contact from 230AC to volt free contacts.

I wasn't even going to bother with the SEAI grants, I presumed there might be too much jumping through hoops, but I think I'll look it up to see whats available. I looked it up for attic insulation but I thought that'd be a handy enough thing to do myself.

Thanks for the replies

shane0007

It does not have to be screened, just run as a separate core.
Volt free is also referred to as low voltage as anything upto 15v is considered as volt free.
Regarding the grant, doing it the right way is the right way! If you are doing it the right way, then why not avail of the grant. You will also get free of charge, an audit of the works, so it will be a way of having the installer's work checked by an independent. If there are faults found the installer is made come back to correct.
Grants are gone at the end of this year with a whole new system of credits instead introduced in its place.

Merch

shane0007 wrote: »

It does not have to be screened, just run as a separate core.
Volt free is also referred to as low voltage as anything upto 15v is considered as volt free.
Regarding the grant, doing it the right way is the right way! If you are doing it the right way, then why not avail of the grant. You will also get free of charge, an audit of the works, so it will be a way of having the installer's work checked by an independent. If there are faults found the installer is made come back to correct.
Grants are gone at the end of this year with a whole new system of credits instead introduced in its place.

I thought they might have onerous conditions, I'll look it up, especially if they audit it, I wasnt aware of that.
I suppose if they replace it, it might not be of the same value.