Transgender fighters in Boxing/MMA

riffmongous

Hi everyone I saw this today and I wondered what people's thoughts would be? Transgender fighter Fallon Fox's MMA license under review (dont bother reading the comments, the usual crap)

So a female transgender fighter knocked out her opponent in 39 seconds, but it turns out her application for a license had only been applied for and not approved. But I guess the issue is whether or not it is fair to let her compete against opponents who were born female. I would have thought that even with hormone replacement therapy she would still have a huge physical advantage to the point of it being dangerous, but that's just a guess, I honestly dont know any better, what do people think?

wonderfulname

The fact she is transgender doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere as a reason she shouldn't have been competing, seems fairly irrelevant to the actual story. Short answer, she shouldn't have any advantage for that reason, and I feel bad for her that her achievements are being whitewashed over by others ignorance.

azezil

wonderfulname wrote: »

The fact she is transgender doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere as a reason she shouldn't have been competing, seems fairly irrelevant to the actual story. Short answer, she shouldn't have any advantage for that reason, and I feel bad for her that her achievements are being whitewashed over by others ignorance.

Biologically speaking the male of the species are physically stronger than females, when a m-to-f undergoes hormone replacement therapy does it make them less physically strong than before they transitioned?

I think that's a valid question as if it doesn't then the transgender female has a physical advantage over the sis female.

Links234

azezil wrote: »

Biologically speaking the male of the species are physically stronger than females, when a m-to-f undergoes hormone replacement therapy does it make them less physically strong than before they transitioned?

I think that's a valid question as if it doesn't then the transgender female has a physical advantage over the sis female.

probably the biggest misunderstanding of transgender issues is that people are almost completely ignorant of what exactly hormones do, and just how dramatic an effect they have on the body. yes, the male of the species is physically stronger but that is because of hormones, testosterone in this case. for transgender women, they'll have female hormonal levels in the range of other women, and due to the elimination of testosterone in their systems, even lower t than other women. a transgender woman would have to work every bit as hard as a cisgender woman to build muscle.

many sporting authorities recognise transgender women's right to compete in women's evens, including the olympics, provided they've transitioned for a certain length of time (varies depending on rules) because post-transition they do not have any physical advantages. take a look at many transgender women in sport for example

for those of you who aren't trans, you've absolutely no idea how quickly your strength goes, and just how drastically your body changes with hormonal treatment. I kinda feel I post this video a bit too often, but it really does illustrate my point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCEjCHb_-Qg

the woman in question is physically female, she just happens to be a good fighter and her being trans shouldn't come into it.

Crooked Jack

Links234 wrote: »

probably the biggest misunderstanding of transgender issues is that people are almost completely ignorant of what exactly hormones do, and just how dramatic an effect they have on the body. yes, the male of the species is physically stronger but that is because of hormones, testosterone in this case. for transgender women, they'll have female hormonal levels in the range of other women, and due to the elimination of testosterone in their systems, even lower t than other women. a transgender woman would have to work every bit as hard as a cisgender woman to build muscle.

many sporting authorities recognise transgender women's right to compete in women's evens, including the olympics, provided they've transitioned for a certain length of time (varies depending on rules) because post-transition they do not have any physical advantages. take a look at many transgender women in sport for example

for those of you who aren't trans, you've absolutely no idea how quickly your strength goes, and just how drastically your body changes with hormonal treatment. I kinda feel I post this video a bit too often, but it really does illustrate my point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCEjCHb_-Qg

the woman in question is physically female, she just happens to be a good fighter and her being trans shouldn't come into it.

Congrats to the person in that video, I hope they found the fulfillment they were after but that video really isnt doing your argument any favours.
The person in it still looks much bigger and stronger than your average female at the end of the treatment. So if you apply the same logic to this fighter (and again, Im only going by the video you have posted) they really would have an unfair advantage over other fighters.
These sort of grey areas are bound to be hard on a trans person but there doesnt seem to be any other way around it if you want to maintain the integrity of the sport.

Links234

Crooked Jack wrote: »

These sort of grey areas are bound to be hard on a trans person but there doesnt seem to be any other way around it if you want to maintain the integrity of the sport.

"Maintain the integrity of the sport"? the only reason to deny transgender people the opportunity to compete would be down to pure prejudice, especially as medical opinion is that there is no advantage and many sporting authorities have their own trans inclusive policies, including the olympics.

riffmongous

Links234 wrote: »

probably the biggest misunderstanding of transgender issues is that people are almost completely ignorant of what exactly hormones do, and just how dramatic an effect they have on the body. yes, the male of the species is physically stronger but that is because of hormones, testosterone in this case. for transgender women, they'll have female hormonal levels in the range of other women, and due to the elimination of testosterone in their systems, even lower t than other women. a transgender woman would have to work every bit as hard as a cisgender woman to build muscle.

many sporting authorities recognise transgender women's right to compete in women's evens, including the olympics, provided they've transitioned for a certain length of time (varies depending on rules) because post-transition they do not have any physical advantages. take a look at many transgender women in sport for example

for those of you who aren't trans, you've absolutely no idea how quickly your strength goes, and just how drastically your body changes with hormonal treatment. I kinda feel I post this video a bit too often, but it really does illustrate my point:


the woman in question is physically female, she just happens to be a good fighter and her being trans shouldn't come into it.

thanks for the vid, huge difference indeed.

Can you point me in the direction of some studies comparing the strength of a trans person before and after or even just comparing them to non-trans males/females? I tried googling but 'strength' seems to take the results in the wrong direction.

riffmongous

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Congrats to the person in that video, I hope they found the fulfillment they were after but that video really isnt doing your argument any favours.
The person in it still looks much bigger and stronger than your average female at the end of the treatment. So if you apply the same logic to this fighter (and again, Im only going by the video you have posted) they really would have an unfair advantage over other fighters.
These sort of grey areas are bound to be hard on a trans person but there doesnt seem to be any other way around it if you want to maintain the integrity of the sport.

But that could depend on the particular level of HRT right? Which would just mean every fighter should be tested for her testosterone level during training, the same as male fighters are.

Crooked Jack

Links234 wrote: »

"Maintain the integrity of the sport"? the only reason to deny transgender people the opportunity to compete would be down to pure prejudice, especially as medical opinion is that there is no advantage and many sporting authorities have their own trans inclusive policies, including the olympics.

Let's not get into hysterics this early on. They havent been thrown out or banned, they're just being investigated. if anyone in any sport is perceived as having an unfair advantage, rightly or wrongly, surely it's the responsibility of the sport's ruling body to investigate.

wonderfulname

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Let's not get into hysterics this early on. They havent been thrown out or banned, they're just being investigated. if anyone in any sport is perceived as having an unfair advantage, rightly or wrongly, surely it's the responsibility of the sport's ruling body to investigate.

From my reading of the article she missed out on a standard drug test, she's not being investigated for anything related to her gender.

Crooked Jack

riffmongous wrote: »

But that could depend on the particular level of HRT right? Which would just mean every fighter should be tested for her testosterone level during training, the same as male fighters are.

Certainly. Like I said it just seems to be under review based on the link provided so if there's nothing unfair found i'm sure they'll be back in the ring in no time. It is however, particularly in a sport that relies so heavily on physicality, an area that would be open to abuse, so surely it's only right it's investigated like any other question mark raised over any other fighter

Crooked Jack

wonderfulname wrote: »

From my reading of the article she missed out on a standard drug test, she's not being investigated for anything related to her gender.

If that's the case why is this even coming up as an issue then. Is trans gender just mentioned in the headline as an eye catcher with nothing to do with the rest of the case? That's a bit shitty.

wonderfulname

Crooked Jack wrote: »

If that's the case why is this even coming up as an issue then. Is trans gender just mentioned in the headline as an eye catcher with nothing to do with the rest of the case? That's a bit shitty.

It seems to be the case from where I'm standing, and unfortunately that's nothing unusual.

riffmongous

wonderfulname wrote: »

From my reading of the article she missed out on a standard drug test, she's not being investigated for anything related to her gender.

I read it differently, that the article just mentioned that she was not drug tested because it was relevant and not because a test was necessary. From what I gathered she was never cleared to fight in the first place, that was the problem.

The California commission, however, said Fox's license, which was submitted in February and included medical documentation, was under review and not approved.

receipt (which reflects a $60 licensing fee) that he thought was interpreted by Fallon as a license.

As far as I know, you usually dont have to take a drug test to apply for a license.

wonderfulname

riffmongous wrote: »

I read it differently, that the article just mentioned that she was not drug tested because it was relevant and not because a test was necessary. From what I gathered she was never cleared to fight in the first place, that was the problem.



As far as I know, you usually dont have to take a drug test to apply for a license.

The Florida commission confirmed that Fox received a pregnancy test per commission rules but was not drug tested

That's where I pulled that one from, I don't entirely get the ins and outs of it but at no point in that article does it connect the womans personal information with the fact she wasn't technically cleared to fight, it's like two parallel stories.

baby and crumble

From my limited knowledge on the subject, I reckon the more testosterone you have in your system, the higher density muscle mass you have, and the stronger you are, yes? I am a cis female but I have much higher levels of testosterone in my body naturally than a lot of other girls. I'm a lot stronger too, presumably as a consequence. (I'm also a hell of a lot hairier too but that's a gripe for another day :mad:)

And not to confuse the issue, but look at Katie Taylor. Not many male fighters in her weight class would last very long in a fight with her, and she's cis. She's just a damn good fighter who's trained hard and knows what she's doing in the ring.

Crooked Jack

wonderfulname wrote: »

It seems to be the case from where I'm standing, and unfortunately that's nothing unusual.

Well balls to that (or not, as the case may be.) So this is just a run of the mill story about an athlete missing a drugs test, turned into a whole big thing because they used to have a weiner?
What the fuck?! This is uncool.

Annasopra

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Let's not get into hysterics this early on.

I appreciate that people have differing views on this. Please don't accuse people of hysteria again on this forum. Also please make sure that you acquaint yourself with our charter particularly item 14. Any problems or feedback PM me.

Edit - apologies I did not mean to infer you breached the charter just to make sure you read it.

riffmongous

baby and crumble wrote: »

And not to confuse the issue, but look at Katie Taylor. Not many male fighters in her weight class would last very long in a fight with her, and she's cis. She's just a damn good fighter who's trained hard and knows what she's doing in the ring.

No doubt about it, Katie is a great boxer but the issue here for me is about punching power. Now everyone is different of course and not every fighter has 'knockout power', same as some people can take a punch better than others, but athletic commissions are supposed to have fighter safety as a priority, its why there are basic things like weight classes and drug testing (both of which have their own serious problems regarding fighter safety).

So I dont think it was too unfair to ask if its possibly dangerous for a trans person to fight a cis person. The license issue in the article just confuses it, but the facts were that this woman is the first known trans fighter in mma and she knocks out her opponent in 39 secs, the safety question has to be asked and reasonably answered imo. Of course the funny thing is if she hadn't had the license issue or if she had just got a boring decision victory we would probably have never heard about it. But still fighter safety should be paramount.

riffmongous

wonderfulname wrote: »

That's where I pulled that one from, I don't entirely get the ins and outs of it but at no point in that article does it connect the womans personal information with the fact she wasn't technically cleared to fight, it's like two parallel stories.

Yep, it was perhaps confusing, I could edit the OP to phrase it better maybe and take out the license references if you would like? My question was about whether its fair or dangerous to allow her to compete. The main relevance of the article is that its the first time I have ever read anything about trans issues and mma, as a sort of comparison there has only been one openly gay fighter in the UFC after 157 events, so you can see these topics dont come up very often

wonderfulname

riffmongous wrote: »

Yep, it was perhaps confusing, I could edit the OP to phrase it better maybe and take out the license references if you would like?

If anyone else wants you to, I see no reason, it might even cause more confusion given how far the discussion has gone.

ashers222

I'd actually be interested in the outcome of the review.

In Brief: Traditional gender roles and differences in absolute strength have resulted in misconceived approaches to strength training for women. Male physiology, more than hormones, explains men's superior absolute strength. When other measures of strength are used, such as strength relative to cross-sectional area of muscle, the strength of men and women is nearly equal. Women who practice the same well-designed strength training programs as men benefit from bone and soft-tissue modeling, increased lean body mass, decreased fat, and enhanced self-confidence.

Physiologic factors. Physiologic differences such as size and body structure are more likely explanations for the average absolute strength differences between men and women. For example, the average American male is about 13 cm taller than the average female and about 18 kg heavier. Men average about 18 to 22 kg more lean body mass and 3 to 6 kg less fat than women. Men typically have a taller, wider frame that supports more muscle, as well as broader shoulders that provide a greater leverage advantage.

http://www.stumptuous.com/ebben.html


Personally if I were fighting a trans girl I'd be feeling slightly disadvantaged. Having longer reach and wider frame is massivley advantageous given the sport she's competing in.

(female body has a lower centre of gravity as the pelvis much is larger to accommodate childbirth resulting in the lower body of women being generally heavier, mens upper bodies are broader to offset the balance and providing greater potential upper body strength in men)

riffmongous

ashers222 wrote: »

Personally if I were fighting a trans girl I'd be feeling slightly disadvantaged. Having longer reach and wider frame is massivley advantageous given the sport she's competing in.

I could imagine someone thinking that alright but I dont know if that is a legitimate concern for safety reasons because you get people having those sort of advantages due to regular variation anyway if you know what I mean? So if it was found that trans fighters had a statistically significant reach advantage but there was no difference in striking force I'd be happy with that.

ashers222

riffmongous wrote: »

I could imagine someone thinking that alright but I dont know if that is a legitimate concern for safety reasons because you get people having those sort of advantages due to regular variation anyway if you know what I mean? So if it was found that trans fighters had a statistically significant reach advantage but there was no difference in striking force I'd be happy with that.

agreed.

ashers222

just watched a vid, find it a bit concerning tbh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O63KAKFPC7g

That drop at the beginning is her advatage, centre of gravity at work


[anyways, she seems to be outfighting her class by miles]

wonderfulname

Another video (I can't seem to find it on YouTube, probably as I'm on mobile): http://m-inu-s.tumblr.com/post/44721405108/fallon-fox-documentary-about-trans-mma-fighter

I think she's a little bit great.

ashers222

can't say I'd be her biggest fan, I just like sport too much to have it made so unfair for the other girls fighting
Maybe have a look at some professional MMA bouts with skilled female athletes and you'll see why. Fallon Fox doesn't display much skill at all really

wonderfulname

How is it unfair? The woman is apparently 5'7, her head probably reaches my chin, anything that isn't somewhat related to that measurement is governed by hormones and athletic effort, ironically she's probably the only woman there who can be guaranteed within "normal" hormone levels so I can't fathom what the problem could be.

ashers222

I don't know if she has guaranteed normal hormone levels, is there not issues with her licensing? Even so, personally just from watching her form and fight style she's just using brute force, her capacity to pick up and throw like that is far from the norm. She is very obviously out classing her opponent, maybe if she was fighting within a different category it would be more level pegging but at the minute what I watched there appears outrageously unfair. I'm saying this having watched fights where the girls are much more on equal footing and there's a lot more skill required to score a win. There's nothing entertaining about that fight I linked to above, in fact every part of me thinks it's wrong. (she even appears to be holding back on the punches, can only imagine the damage she would do if she let loose)

fwiw, fighting isn't just about having greater strength, it involves skill and being able to take a punch too. Her bone density is much greater than the other girls, she can withstand greater forces attacking her and it's designed to carry more muscle, even without the advantage of extra testosterone for developing it and her skeletal structure acts for better leverage. (it's why she can pick up and throw, it's basic physics) She may be 5"7 but having higher centre of gravity is equal to having an extra 2 inches to fight with. You could be punching her for a lot longer before she would go down.

(also, every woman who has fought her so far has commented on the force of impact as being outside of the norm. I think that as much as anything should be taken into account when licensing her to fight as an equal.)

riffmongous

ashers222 wrote: »

I don't know if she has guaranteed normal hormone levels, is there not issues with her licensing? Even so, personally just from watching her form and fight style she's just using brute force, her capacity to pick up and throw like that is far from the norm. She is very obviously out classing her opponent, maybe if she was fighting within a different category it would be more level pegging but at the minute what I watched there appears outrageously unfair. I'm saying this having watched fights where the girls are much more on equal footing and there's a lot more skill required to score a win. There's nothing entertaining about that fight I linked to above, in fact every part of me thinks it's wrong. (she even appears to be holding back on the punches, can only imagine the damage she would do if she let loose)

fwiw, fighting isn't just about having greater strength, it involves skill and being able to take a punch too. Her bone density is much greater than the other girls, she can withstand greater forces attacking her and it's designed to carry more muscle, even without the advantage of extra testosterone for developing it and her skeletal structure acts for better leverage. (it's why she can pick up and throw, it's basic physics) She may be 5"7 but having higher centre of gravity is equal to having an extra 2 inches to fight with. You could be punching her for a lot longer before she would go down.

(also, every woman who has fought her so far has commented on the force of impact as being outside of the norm. I think that as much as anything should be taken into account when licensing her to fight as an equal.)

But how do you know that her performance in that fight isn't just due to the quality of her opponent? It was one of her first fights so it's quite possible she put in against an overmatched opponent. I wouldnt read too much into it at the moment.

ashers222

riffmongous wrote: »

But how do you know that her performance in that fight isn't just due to the quality of her opponent? It was one of her first fights so it's quite possible she put in against an overmatched opponent. I wouldnt read too much into it at the moment.

Grand, cuz I'd love to see her get the crap beat out of her in a real fight. She's been fighting a year and a half and no losses recorded, yet. Bring her on.

riffmongous

ashers222 wrote: »

Grand, cuz I'd love to see her get the crap beat out of her in a real fight. She's been fighting a year and a half and no losses recorded, yet. Bring her on.

Most of them were amateur though, it's not too unusual to find fighters who clean up at amateur and their first few pro fights.

ashers222

riffmongous wrote: »

Most of them were amateur though, it's not too unusual to find fighters who clean up at amateur and their first few pro fights.

like I said, it will be interesting to see how it develops. If she happens to make a career out of it and records no losses a pro, will she be heralded as a great fighter or a just fighter with a genetic advantage.