stove plumbing

churchtown2012

Hi All
looking for advise on a plumbing issue.... i have a dual heating system oil and back boiler stove. If the oil burner had been on during the day heating the house and i then decide to light the stove that evening the stove acts up i.e dumping hot water out the overflow.
I found out today when i had the oil burner heating for about 45 mins and then turned the pipe stat on the stove (not lighting) to kick on the stove pump that i got very hot water going through the stove pipes.
I noticed back in the hot press that the return for the oil is also connected to the return for the stove and i wonder if this is correct.
i have added a diagram to show what i mean(not great)
Thanks for any help

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

Hi All
looking for advise on a plumbing issue.... i have a dual heating system oil and back boiler stove. If the oil burner had been on during the day heating the house and i then decide to light the stove that evening the stove acts up i.e dumping hot water out the overflow.
I found out today when i had the oil burner heating for about 45 mins and then turned the pipe stat on the stove (not lighting) to kick on the stove pump that i got very hot water going through the stove pipes.
I noticed back in the hot press that the return for the oil is also connected to the return for the stove and i wonder if this is correct.
i have added a diagram to show what i mean(not great)
Thanks for any help

Could you take pics of the hotpress, especially any pumps tees etc. the more we can see the more we can help you

churchtown2012

Thanks for the quick reply dtp79
there is no pumps in the hotpress I.E pump for the stove is beside stove and the pump for oil is housed outside.
the connection that im questioning is the return from the stove comes up from the floor in the hotpress and is tee'd into the return from the oil

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

Thanks for the quick reply dtp79
there is no pumps in the hotpress I.E pump for the stove is beside stove and the pump for oil is housed outside.
the connection that im questioning is the return from the stove comes up from the floor in the hotpress and is tee'd into the return from the oil

Eventually both the flow and returns will be teed together on both systems. How they are joined is extremely important that's why I need to see some pics! How many pipes are coming off the stove. And once again pics will help

churchtown2012

it wont let me attach a photo will keep trying and i have 2 pipes from stove 1 up and 1 down

churchtown2012

pics uploaded

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

it wont let me attach a photo will keep trying and i have 2 pipes from stove 1 up and 1 down

Keep trying yes.
One things for sure, you have a problem if the pump on your stove is on the primary return which I'm pretty sure it is

churchtown2012

you may have to zoom

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

you may have to zoom

Not looking promising so far. First sign of a cowboy being at a job is the white tape you see on the compression fitting threads. Can you take a pic from a distance that I can see all the pipes in the hotpress. Also a pic of the stove and pumps. Also how many coils on your cyclinder?

churchtown2012

ur rite about a cowboy....the cylinder has 2 coils and i cant get a full pic of the hotpress not enough room to show everything

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

ur rite about a cowboy....the cylinder has 2 coils and i cant get a full pic of the hotpress not enough room to show everything

I think your better off getting a plumber in to look over it. Looks rough and sounds rough too. Don't light the stove either until its been given clearance from the plumber

jd80

As alluded to - does the stove only heat the water in the cylinder or does it also heat the radiators?

churchtown2012

rads too jd80

churchtown2012

thanks for your help dtp79 and yes the stove is out of action for now (safety)

jd80

Let us know how you get on

It does not sound healthy.

You state that water is pitched into the tank in the loft

This will eventually cause a build up of ferrous oxide in your system.

Do you notice the rads being cold in a half moon shape - coldest at bottom?

churchtown2012

no not really... im just confused about the 2 systems been linked..it does'nt seem rite to me when i have a dual coil cylinder installed

jd80

Unfortunately, one really does not know what some guys get up to.

It is difficult to remotely diagnose.

It is not correct design as you have drawn it

Engage a competent plumber or services engineer to thoroughly look at the pipe layout and design - by design I mean why is pitching occurring (could be incorrect placement of pump)

Your house may not be too old - thus no cold radiators yet

IF it gets bad enough, cold rads will be the least of your trouble. Pinholing/rotting and scrapping of your rads can be the outcome

churchtown2012

thanks jd80 i feel a lot better now :-( will employ a plumber to look it over

jd80

churchtown2012 wrote: »

thanks jd80 i feel a lot better now :-( will employ a plumber to look it over

One thing at a time

Get it looked over.

Assess what needs to be done

A good design and proper installation (even completed retrospectively) and it will last a lifetime. You will not even notice the system is there as it will give zero trouble

jd80

But please let us know how you fair

TPM

It doesnt look promising at all, the qualpex pipe for the primary return is another big problem

churchtown2012

Ok i am waiting for a plumber to look at the system...in the meantime i have made another diagram of the hot-press its not exact but it does show what i mean

Irish Steve

Ok, can you add things like valves, the pumps, and are the supplies to the radiators connected to the flow and return of the oil system where they cross over the pipes from the oil boiler?

churchtown2012

thanks irish steve for your reply....i dont want to add the pumps, valves etc to the diagram as its not 100% correct just a guide
there is a non return valve fitted on the flow pipe from the stove just b4 it enters the radiator circuit (stop the oilburner sending water to the stove circuit
the pump for the oil burner house outside
the pump for the stove is located beside the stove on the flow pipe with pipe stat fitted to it......( i believe this is wrong and should be on the return pipe pointing back to stove
hope this makes sense

churchtown2012

irish steve pics uploaded
and yes it is then connected to the flow and return to the rad circuit

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

irish steve pics uploaded
and yes it is then connected to the flow and return to the rad circuit

To say that it's horrendous would be an understatement. As I said before don't light that fire !! Who pipes the system for the stove? Was it an actual plumber or a handyman?

churchtown2012

plumber or should i say a pretend plumber......and can you point out what wrong and can it be put right

jd80

Diagrammatically, it is not clear - is there a gravity system between stove and cylinder?

Dtp79

jd80 wrote: »

Diagrammatically, it is not clear - is there a gravity system between stove and cylinder?

There can't be a gravity circuit if the pump is at the stove

churchtown2012

jd80 yes there is a gravity system installed using 1'' pipes sorry about the diagram i was just trying to show the pipe network

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

plumber or should i say a pretend plumber......and can you point out what wrong and can it be put right

It's hard to say what's needed to be done cause I can't see the extent of the work that is there. One thing is for sure though.... The flow pipe from your stove must rise gradually to the cyclinder with NO valves or pumps or non return valves on either flow or return. This is known as your primary circuit. At the moment your primary circuit is a pumped circuit and this is dangerous and certainly not allowed. It has to be a gravity circuit.

churchtown2012

thanks dtp79 as i stated in previous post i thought the pump was in the wrong position it should be on the return pipe pointing back to stove (am i right ). If the pump was removed and put right (easily done) the flow would rise into the attic be tee'd of for expansion and drop back down to HWC (i have a bungalow)

Irish Steve

Dtp79 wrote: »

To say that it's horrendous would be an understatement. As I said before don't light that fire !! Who pipes the system for the stove? Was it an actual plumber or a handyman?

Phrases like Hells teeth and WTF are the first to go through my mind, and yeah, leave that stove unlit until a LOT more details of this "system" ( I use the word VERY loosely, lash up is more appropriate) has been worked out, there are so many issues here I'm not even sure where to start!

Suffice to say that there are going to be some significant changes needed on this to be sure it's safe.

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

thanks dtp79 as i stated in previous post i thought the pump was in the wrong position it should be on the return pipe pointing back to stove (am i right ). If the pump was removed and put right (easily done) the flow would rise into the attic be tee'd of for expansion and drop back down to HWC (i have a bungalow)

It depends on the distance between stove and hotpress. The pump can't be on the primary circuit therefore it can only go in the hotpress on the secondary circuit.

jd80

Is the gravity system actually unimpeded?

Is there a tee off form the flow out of the stove with the gravity circuit on one branch of the tee and the rad circuit on the other branch

Then, is the 'stove' pump to the radiators located on this latter branch


Just for interest, has this stove 2 or 4 connections at the back?


Also, how has it come about that the returns from the coils are connected?

churchtown2012

thanks irish steve stove will remain out of action until its safe to use, although i have been using the stove for the last 2 years with no problems other than when the oil burner had been used that day and the stove was lit that evening that it would start to pitch until it got rid off the hot water and then work as normal with no issues. Thats why i asked the question off the 2 return pipes been connected to each

churchtown2012

jd80 wrote: »

Is the gravity system actually unimpeded?

Is there a tee off form the flow out of the stove with the gravity circuit on one branch of the tee and the rad circuit on other branch

Then, is the 'stove' pump to the radiators located on this latter branch


Just for interest, has this stove 2 or 4 connections at the back?


Also, how has it come about that the returns from the coils are connected?

apart from the pump yes unimpeded
the flow is then tee'd in the hotpress 1 going to HWC and other to rad circuit
stove has 2 connections
and i dont know why the 2 returns are connected

jd80

I am curious to know if all this work is a 'new' job - done from scratch

What did you have the plumber in to actually do? Repair this?

Or did he cause this?

churchtown2012

done in 2009 new build

jd80

Unreal

Dtp79

jd80 wrote: »

Unreal

+1

Dtp79

A silly question or maybe not considering the what I've seen, is there a small tank in your attic along with a large one?

churchtown2012

yea dtp

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

yea dtp

Make sure you have 2 seperate pipes. the vent going over it and an expansion pipe going down into the hotpress

churchtown2012

yes i do and i just had the oil burner running and noticed that the flow pipe is warm not hot

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

yes i do and i just had the oil burner running and noticed that the flow pipe is warm not hot

Which flow pipe? At the oil boiler or at the stove?

churchtown2012

stove

Dtp79

churchtown2012 wrote: »

stove

Obviously it should never get warm. Hopefully your plumber can sort out the mess for you. Keep us updated

churchtown2012

anyone... are there any easy to follow diagrams to show the plumbing for these boiler stoves connected to a dual heating system so that i can arm myself with some knowledge before i get a plumber in

DoneDL

churchtown2012, http://www.solidfuel.co.uk/pdfs/link_up.pdf is a good resource but get a good fitter and allow them the time do the job well.

churchtown2012

Hi All well just a update on my f**ked up heating system.
Had 2 plumbers look over the plumbing and both advised to do away with the boiler stove and install a non boiler stove:-( will try and sell my boiler stove to fund a non boiler stove.
How are these so called ''plumbers'' are getting away with putting lives at risk is beyond me.
Away thanks for all the replies and keep up the good work