Changing radiator valves

ironderek

Hi, I have to change 2 radiator valves because they're damage. I know how to take radiator out, and I know that before I take radiator valve out I have to drain all water from the system, but before I'll do that I have to close water coming into the radiators. Can you point me which valve in hot press should I turn off? Also where is water top up valve?











Thank You

corkgsxr

the black one just left of the gauge.


if your tank is hot for a while does your big tank in the attic getting warm?

also the half inch pipe going to the shower, does that stay quite hot?

ironderek

Thank You, that what I thought but I wasn't sure for 100%
I don't know if the tank in the attic gets warm because I never check it. All the pipes in the hot press are hot when heating is on.
So to change radiator valves I should:
1. Close valve in hot press
2. Close valves on radiator
3. Take out radiator
4. Drain water from the system
5. Change valves
6. Put radiators back
7. Open valve in hot press and fill up the whole system
8. Bleed radiators
Is that all, or did I miss something?
Where is water top up valve?

corkgsxr

that valve with the gauge is the water top up valve.

open the black knob it fills close it it doesnt

ironderek

Ok, because at the moment it's opened. So when I'll work with the valves it has to be close after that I have to open it to fill the system and bleed radiators?

Irish Steve

Got given dogs abuse recently when I mentioned maintenance valves.

If you had them, procedure would be.

Close radiator valves
Close maintenance valves.
disconnect between maintenance valve and radiator valve at each end. 5ml or so to catch on piece of rag.
Remove radiator.
Put radiator on dust sheet or similar, upside down
Remove rad valves, catch small spillage while doing so to avoid staining carpet or floor.
Put new valves in.
Make sure new valves closed
Refit radiator.
Reconnect to maintenance valves
Reset all valves,
Bleed radiator.
Check system pressure

No draining down
No loss of heating system while replacing valves.
No bleeding of rest of radiators or possible air locks
Small top up, so less air to bleed over next while

Maintenance valves are about €3 or €4 each.

( And no, I don't work for a plumbers merchant, I just like easy ways to do maintenance)

So much easier in my book

mloc123

Irish Steve wrote: »

Got given dogs abuse recently when I mentioned maintenance valves.

If you had them, procedure would be.

Close radiator valves
Close maintenance valves.
disconnect between maintenance valve and radiator valve at each end. 5ml or so to catch on piece of rag.
Remove radiator.
Put radiator on dust sheet or similar, upside down
Remove rad valves, catch small spillage while doing so to avoid staining carpet or floor.
Put new valves in.
Make sure new valves closed
Refit radiator.
Reconnect to maintenance valves
Reset all valves,
Bleed radiator.
Check system pressure

No draining down
No loss of heating system while replacing valves.
No bleeding of rest of radiators or possible air locks
Small top up, so less air to bleed over next while

Maintenance valves are about €3 or €4 each.

( And no, I don't work for a plumbers merchant, I just like easy ways to do maintenance)

So much easier in my book

But then how do you change a maintenance valve? Should you put maintenance valves either side of your maintenance valves... and then what happens if you need to change them.. do you put maintenance valves either side of your maintenance valves maintenance valaves?

Irish Steve

Yet to have a maintenance valve give problems, they don't get used very often, but in this sort of scenario, they make it a lot easier to sort out the things like leaking glands on a rad valve, a seized spindle, or changing a tap washer, which is all the justification I need, and the suppliers must think so too, as they are providing flexible tails with them built in now, which wasn't the case a few years ago.

Ok so they are not popular, probably because they reduce the time to do a job like this so significantly, it makes it harder to justify the total charge for the job, wearing my hat as a home owner, I like them, if I was working as a full time plumber, they'd probably be one of those items that I would hate, being able to change a rad valve in 20 minutes rather than possible 2 hours is bad for income for the plumber.

corkgsxr

are ya really saying we should have the little screwdriver valves on each radiator?

and do you use flexy hoses to connect to rads?

Dtp79

corkgsxr wrote: »

are ya really saying we should have the little screwdriver valves on each radiator?

and do you use flexy hoses to connect to rads?

Wow that'd look rough !!

Maintance valves NO, NO, NO.

They would look terrible, they would all leak if the system water is contaminated, there's extra joints that don't need to be there, if the system is big I use a freezing kit so my customers don't incur extra costs for the lack of maintance valves and did I say they'd look brutal.

I have a site with a 100 boilers that are 9 years old with isolation(maintenance valves) on all the water pipes under the combi boilers, they leak and are a pain in the behind:eek:

shane0007

gary71 wrote: »

Maintance valves NO, NO, NO.

They would look terrible, they would all leak if the system water is contaminated, there's extra joints that don't need to be there, if the system is big I use a freezing kit so my customers don't incur extra costs for the lack of maintance valves and did I say they'd look brutal.

I have a site with a 100 boilers that are 9 years old with isolation(maintenance valves) on all the water pipes under the combi boilers, they leak and are a pain in the behind:eek:

Ah but if the maintenance valve had a maintenance valve you could have changed the maintenance valve with no fuss.

Ya didn't think of that, did ya???

corkgsxr

gary71 wrote: »

Maintance valves NO, NO, NO.

They would look terrible, they would all leak if the system water is contaminated, there's extra joints that don't need to be there, if the system is big I use a freezing kit so my customers don't incur extra costs for the lack of maintance valves and did I say they'd look brutal.

I have a site with a 100 boilers that are 9 years old with isolation(maintenance valves) on all the water pipes under the combi boilers, they leak and are a pain in the behind:eek:

On the subject of extra joints had a customer who wanted more copper used than qual but through the floors I was gonna use qual. He asked me would I cut the copper into short bits and use straights.

shane0007 wrote: »

Ah but if the maintenance valve had a maintenance valve you could have changed the maintenance valve with no fuss.

Ya didn't think of that, did ya???

Could ya imagine explaining that to a customer

Irish Steve

corkgsxr wrote: »

are ya really saying we should have the little screwdriver valves on each radiator?

From a user point of view, Yes

and do you use flexy hoses to connect to rads?

Now you're taking the p1ss:D:D. taps, and maybe WC cisterns. Trust the small screwdriver valves a lot more than I trust gate valves

Not going to bite any more, it's not funny after so many repetitions

corkgsxr

Irish Steve wrote: »

From a user point of view, Yes

Now you're taking the p1ss:D:D. taps, and maybe WC cisterns. Trust the small screwdriver valves a lot more than I trust gate valves

Not going to bite any more, it's not funny after so many repetitions

I always fit the ha'penny valves on taps toilets etc. But on each rad madness. Fit decent rad valves and you wont have to replace them for years. Makes them pointless

Irish Steve

corkgsxr wrote: »

I always fit the ha'penny valves on taps toilets etc. But on each rad madness. Fit decent rad valves and you wont have to replace them for years. Makes them pointless

I had to rebuild most of our ground floor after a flood in 2002. Every radiator had to come off the wall for redecorating, and some replastering, and the time involved to put the valves in was minor, but it sure makes redecorating easier, as I can take a rad off the wall in seconds, without draining it, or if it's a big double panel, it can be lifted a little with the valves closed, and then drained easily into a container without any problems. With a small electric drill pump, it can also be refilled before reconnecting with the water (and inhibiter) that came out.

That means less hassle putting it back on, and it avoids having to go climbing into the dormer roof space, which is tight, to put extra inhibitor in the header tank when refilling, as there is no refilling as such, the rad doesn't get drained, or it is refilled with the original contents. The header tank is not easy to get to because of the position in relation to the storage tanks.

Yes, the rad valves don't fail, they were good, most of them are TRV's, so not even touched that often, unless the pin sticks, which happens.

I wasn't sure how good the redecoration was going to be, due to drying out and related issues, so the extra valves went in to make life easier when we had to go at decorating again, which was a given, due to the circumstances.

Yeah, it may be over the top, but they have made things a lot easier here after the nightmare of the damage from the flood.

corkgsxr

for taking rads off the wall your making a big deal out of it.

close the valves.

drain the rad into a dish. walk away.

decorate to your hearts content.

connect back up.

if you want to add abit of inhibitor. put it in the vent. then fill the rad.


its not needed. just adds joints and cost.

what about where the pipes come out the wall? not a hope of enough space

Dtp79

corkgsxr wrote: »

for taking rads off the wall your making a big deal out of it.

close the valves.

drain the rad into a dish. walk away.

decorate to your hearts content.

connect back up.

if you want to add abit of inhibitor. put it in the vent. then fill the rad.


its not needed. just adds joints and cost.

what about where the pipes come out the wall? not a hope of enough space

When the pipe comes out of the wall just put a service box on the wall with access into the wall where you'll find a service valve on the pipe. Simple!!!

sullzz

service valves on a domestic situation is crazy , it doesnt take long to drain and refill a system , even most commercial or industrial installations only have one set of valves to do each floor , with regards to service hatches at each rad to get to valves , can you imagine how crap that would look , a hatch at each side of a rad

Irish Steve

13 rads on ground floor, only 6 on first, and pipes are under the floor, though I have seen a 90 degree elbow version of the valves in the UK, Wickes do them. Draining the system is not too bad, refilling it is a pain, getting all the air out from the sections under the ground floor takes time. Although there's only 6 upstairs, getting the air out there is a pain too, long horizontal runs under floors there too.

Draining a big double panel is a pain, or a really good size container is needed, with care to avoid water spraying where it's not supposed to, especially if the pipes are underfloor so not much space beside the pipe. I just prefer not having to drain them in the first place, remove, lay on dust sheet, paint replace, replace, no air to talk of.

Look, I understand the arguments here, from a user point of view, I love em, if I was quoting for systems all the time, I'd hate them, unless they were mandatory, because they'd push my price up a bit, and take a little longer to fit, 25 mm of pipe to cut and 2 fittings to clamp at each end extra. And yes, they're probably a lot dearer now than I paid for them, it was 10 years ago I did mine, and I think they were about €1.50 each, retail nearer €4 now probably, so on a larger system, yes, they add up.

I think we're going to have to agree to differ here, on this system, with the way it is structured, they make life a lot easier for me, and if someone is doing work themselves, and can see a time when they might have to do more, or doing their own install, if they know they are out there, then it's their choice to fit or not fit.

Fair? I think so, we're not talking rocket science on this one.

K.Flyer

corkgsxr wrote: »

for taking rads off the wall your making a big deal out of it.

close the valves.

drain the rad into a dish. walk away.

decorate to your hearts content.

connect back up.

if you want to add abit of inhibitor. put it in the vent. then fill the rad.


its not needed. just adds joints and cost.

what about where the pipes come out the wall? not a hope of enough space

I have not used a dish under a rad in donkeys years.

Much cleaner and safer using a wet-vac.

sullzz

Wet vac all the way

Dtp79

sullzz wrote: »

service valves on a domestic situation is crazy , it doesnt take long to drain and refill a system , even most commercial or industrial installations only have one set of valves to do each floor , with regards to service hatches at each rad to get to valves , can you imagine how crap that would look , a hatch at each side of a rad

Sullz I was messin

Dtp79

sullzz wrote: »

Wet vac all the way

Never used a wet vac. Does it literally suck the water from the rad?
I'd always turn off valves, dusconnect from rad one at a time, then put 2 old valves closed onto the rad and carry out the rad Full of water. Mind u the 2 metre doubles are a pain in back.... Literally!

K.Flyer

Dtp79 wrote: »

Never used a wet vac. Does it literally suck the water from the rad?

If you have enough wriggle to disconnect the valve from the rad, then yes.
Keep the hose at the connection until the pressure eases off, move the valve out of the way, then put the hose over the tail allowing suction to build up, open the vent screw to allow air into the rad and the vac takes all the water out. simples.

Honestly, its one of the best pieces of equipment I have in the van. Ideal as well for changing immersions, emptying cisterns and even great for shifting airlocks.

gdavis

im a recent wet vac convert,cant believe i didnt cop it years ago,and its a top end one from lidl at 50 yoyo's!!! the grief it saves is unreal,even for the likes of taking out toilets,u can have cistern and bowl totally dry in seconds.For drainig rads etc. I was always a towels on the floor and doubling up on heavy duty black sacks kinda guy til the wet vac found its way into my van

sullzz

Dtp79 wrote: »

Sullz I was messin

I was hoping you were:P

sullzz

gdavis wrote: »

im a recent wet vac convert,cant believe i didnt cop it years ago,and its a top end one from lidl at 50 yoyo's!!! the grief it saves is unreal,even for the likes of taking out toilets,u can have cistern and bowl totally dry in seconds.For drainig rads etc. I was always a towels on the floor and doubling up on heavy duty black sacks kinda guy til the wet vac found its way into my van

I'm using the lidl best myself , I got one a few years ago , it a big enough one and I got a new one only last week in lidl , its a small one , its handier for carrying around , they are probably the best tool in the van , shift an airlock in a second

shane0007

sullzz wrote: »

shift an airlock in a second

Tell me more!
Sounds like I could me paying a visit to Herr Lidl myself today!
How are you shifting airlocks with it?
I can just imagine, "Aye, missus, I'm just giving your heating a spring clean with the hoover...." Lol

sullzz

shane0007 wrote: »

Tell me more!
Sounds like I could me paying a visit to Herr Lidl myself today!
How are you shifting airlocks with it?
I can just imagine, "Aye, missus, I'm just giving your heating a spring clean with the hoover...." Lol

More for the plumbing side of airlocks , just stick it to the tap , the maiden voyage for my new one wasn't too pretty though , I went to an office block for blocked urinals , I threw a bucket of water down , it diddnt drain at all , a belt of a plunger diddnt make a difference , so I wasn't going to put acid anywhere near them , I took my new wet vac out of its box and sucked the water out of the urinal , popped the traps off and stuck the wet vac hose to the waste pipe , I could feel the lumps going through the hose , the water must of been turned off to the cistern for months , I scrubbed the vac out but still get a pong when I use it

K.Flyer

shane0007 wrote: »

Tell me more!
Sounds like I could me paying a visit to Herr Lidl myself today!
How are you shifting airlocks with it?
I can just imagine, "Aye, missus, I'm just giving your heating a spring clean with the hoover...." Lol

If you are going to Lidl there are two models. The bigger one has an auxillary socket on it which can be very useful.

Dtp79

K.Flyer wrote: »

If you are going to Lidl there are two models. The bigger one has an auxillary socket on it which can be very useful.

What kinda capacity is the big one and small one? Is it a dry vac too as in could ya use it for servicing oil burners too?

Dtp79

sullzz wrote: »

More for the plumbing side of airlocks , just stick it to the tap , the maiden voyage for my new one wasn't too pretty though , I went to an office block for blocked urinals , I threw a bucket of water down , it diddnt drain at all , a belt of a plunger diddnt make a difference , so I wasn't going to put acid anywhere near them , I took my new wet vac out of its box and sucked the water out of the urinal , popped the traps off and stuck the wet vac hose to the waste pipe , I could feel the lumps going through the hose , the water must of been turned off to the cistern for months , I scrubbed the vac out but still get a pong when I use it

So it was a piece of piss removing the blockage so!

Irish Steve

Dtp79 wrote: »

What kinda capacity is the big one and small one? Is it a dry vac too as in could ya use it for servicing oil burners too?

I'd be tempted to get one of the ash collector bins that get put on before the vac, that way, you don't have problems with soot clogging a wet filter. the soot ends up in the ash bin, and the main vac is just the power source.

Irish Steve

sullzz wrote: »

More for the plumbing side of airlocks , just stick it to the tap , the maiden voyage for my new one wasn't too pretty though , I went to an office block for blocked urinals , I threw a bucket of water down , it diddnt drain at all , a belt of a plunger diddnt make a difference , so I wasn't going to put acid anywhere near them , I took my new wet vac out of its box and sucked the water out of the urinal , popped the traps off and stuck the wet vac hose to the waste pipe , I could feel the lumps going through the hose , the water must of been turned off to the cistern for months , I scrubbed the vac out but still get a pong when I use it

Be thankful you've not had to get a grease trap in an indian restaurant unblocked :mad::mad::mad:.

Had to sort one recently, had been put in with 1 1/2 pipe, 20 metres horizontal run, with 9 elbows en route to the 4" stack, so it blocked very regularly. The drain was/is bad enough, the trap itself, under the sink, is an absolute nightmare to clean. Bit the bullet recently and persuaded the landlord that putting a hole through the wall to connect to a closer 4" would be a better move. It now has 3 elbows and 2 metres of pipe before the 4".

Dtp79

Irish Steve wrote: »

I'd be tempted to get one of the ash collector bins that get put on before the vac, that way, you don't have problems with soot clogging a wet filter. the soot ends up in the ash bin, and the main vac is just the power source.

Already have one of those but never use it. I only have a dry vac. Space In the van is limited so a wet/dry vac could take the place of the dry vac nicely.

Irish Steve

Dtp79 wrote: »

Already have one of those but never use it. I only have a dry vac. Space In the van is limited so a wet/dry vac could take the place of the dry vac nicely.

True, I'd still be tempted to use a soot trap before the wet & Dry, when used wet there's normally no fine filter in the vac, for dry there has to be, to avoid a BIG instant fog, and the problem can be that if the filter gets wet, soot sticks, and blocks it.

If you get one of the larger wet & Dry. they have the advantage of a plug on the bottom that is a drain for the tank, which makes them easier to handle, and you might be able to get a soot trap that would fit inside the tank of the wet & Dry for travelling, best of both worlds. I usually put the hose inside the tank as well when taking it out, saves another trip out to the vehicle.

gdavis

the little lidl one holds 20 litres,bigger one 35 afaik,they come with different filters,one for wet,one for fine particles,and one normal dry,also can be used to blow out air if u swap hose sides

shane0007

gdavis wrote: »

the little lidl one holds 20 litres,bigger one 35 afaik,they come with different filters,one for wet,one for fine particles,and one normal dry,also can be used to blow out air if u swap hose sides

The missus told me it was over a week ago since they were in. So I went down & they had 4 left. 3 left now! Not bad for €50.
My Dewalt packed in a few weeks ago & I had to borrow a mates one. The Lidl one seems a bit strong for a boiler service but I'm sure it will be put to good use. I have a new Dewalt on order but its a 3 week wait!

How are you connecting the hose to the heating system?

Irish Steve

shane0007 wrote: »

The missus told me it was over a week ago since they were in. So I went down & they had 4 left. 3 left now! Not bad for €50.
My Dewalt packed in a few weeks ago & I had to borrow a mates one. The Lidl one seems a bit strong for a boiler service but I'm sure it will be put to good use. I have a new Dewalt on order but its a 3 week wait!

How are you connecting the hose to the heating system?

As you say, the Lidl machine has a good bit of power on it, most of the time, some good quality silver duct tape gives enough of a seal to solve the problem.

Another option is to have a chat with your local friendly motor factor, and see what hoses they've got that have a heater connection on them, and the right size for the vac hose, Tape up the "spare" end, and then put the vac in the other, and connect the pipe to the line that needs to be cleared.

Unlikely to need a hose clip, it's rare to need that much suction.

shane0007

Not really my question. I am looking at the transitional joint to be made up with a lever valve or such & which part of the system is being connected into, therefore fittings will have to be transitioned to the vacuum hose.
I have already made a series of various size fittings to go from my compressor to 10mm, 1/2", 3/4" & 1" copper. You just remove the sizes you don't want and connect.
I would have thought in an open vented system, the easiest place to connect would be the vent and a sealed system, a radiator valve.
My other question would be how the rad is being vacuumed to remove the contents?

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

Not really my question. I am looking at the transitional joint to be made up with a lever valve or such & which part of the system is being connected into, therefore fittings will have to be transitioned to the vacuum hose.
I have already made a series of various size fittings to go from my compressor to 10mm, 1/2", 3/4" & 1" copper. You just remove the sizes you don't want and connect.
I would have thought in an open vented system, the easiest place to connect would be the vent and a sealed system, a radiator valve.
My other question would be how the rad is being vacuumed to remove the contents?

I think most vacuums are almost 1 1/4. Very close to waste pipe. You could heat the waste pipe over the vacuum pipe. If you can get the older cleaning caps for waste fittings, screw out the cap and the thread is 1" bsp. Screw in yer 312 and away ya go

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

I think most vacuums are almost 1 1/4. Very close to waste pipe. You could heat the waste pipe over the vacuum pipe. If you can get the older cleaning caps for waste fittings, screw out the cap and the thread is 1" bsp. Screw in yer 312 and away ya go

A lot of feckin' work a connect a hoover!

Irish Steve

shane0007 wrote: »

A lot of feckin' work a connect a hoover!

But just think of the advantages of being able to sort out all those other aggravations

Tis why I suggested a vehicle hose that will push fit on to the nozzle of the vac, and a piece of plumbing copper at the other or on a branch, jubilee clip to hold it, the copper can be fitted with whatever suits to match to the job at hand.

shane0007

Irish Steve wrote: »

But just think of the advantages of being able to sort out all those other aggravations

Tis why I suggested a vehicle hose that will push fit on to the nozzle of the vac, and a piece of plumbing copper at the other or on a branch, jubilee clip to hold it, the copper can be fitted with whatever suits to match to the job at hand.

Either way, I just know I am going to get wet!

Irish Steve

shane0007 wrote: »

Either way, I just know I am going to get wet!

Be thankful you're not working at the airport on the honey truck that is used to empty the waste tanks after each flight. If you get wet there, the blue stain lasts for a LONG time, and the best thing to do with any clothing that was being worn is burn it:D.

Did that job for a while, and saw someone else get a blue shower one day when the hose fell off as he pulled the valve release. Aer Rianta (Now DAA) were NOT amused, their man who had to come out and clean up had a serious sense of humour failure, and I guess the sweeper truck stank for months afterwards

Your nice new sweet smelling Vac cleaner , it probably won't stay that long mind.

The only chance of getting wet is if you try to suck up more than the machine can hold, and it stops as the float valve cuts off the suction. that can cause some anxious moments!

Other than that, I've put the nozzle on the floor before now, close to a 1 1/2 waste, but not actually in it, and then got water flowing in the drain, and the vac picks up everything that comes out of the pipe, even if it's not as such connected. It was the only way of getting the drain clear, no access at the downstream end, so had to go at it from the upstream end with a small Karcher Jetter, which can clear most things, but ideally from the downstream side through a suitable access eye.

The vac was a lifesaver, on the first floor, an old timber floor that's seen better days gap wise, with another retail outlet below, seriously greasy water coming through the ceiling would not have gone down well!

If you got the big one, I've also had to take the access cap off the 1 1/2 with the pipe full of water, and as long as I didn't just twist it off and let the pipe rip, the vac coped with sucking up the water that was backed up, so if you do get wet, you've had what can best be described as a seriously senior moment

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

A lot of feckin' work a connect a hoover!

Initially it is but once you've it made up its be like any other Hoover attachment.

Dtp79

Wet/dry vacs in lidl tommorrow

K.Flyer

Dtp79 wrote: »

Wet/dry vacs in lidl tommorrow

Thanks for that, My current one is just about to give up on me after 5 years of loyal service. Hope they are the larger version.

Dtp79

K.Flyer wrote: »

Thanks for that, My current one is just about to give up on me after 5 years of loyal service. Hope they are the larger version.

It's a 26 litre one in my place

SmallBalls

corkgsxr wrote: »

are ya really saying we should have the little screwdriver valves on each radiator?

and do you use flexy hoses to connect to rads?

Reminded me of this little video

The wet vac is a new one for me as well, can't believe I never thought of it
A trip to Lidl might be in order.