Father in UK-Daughter in Ireland. Help me please!!

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 9:11am #1

I split with my partner when my little girl was two. Long story short, she took my daughter and moved to the opposite end of the country, abandoned mortgage etc etc. Its a sorry tale. I eventually took her to court to get guardianship and access to see my daughter which I got successfully. At the time the judge ordered that she share the travel burden with me as it was she who moved. This has always been an issue. For me to do all the travelling it basically entails a 6hr plus journey to bring my daughter to my home for the weekend.
This all worked fine while I was in the country! Enter recession and I'm forced to move to the UK for work. I have spent the last two years travelling back every three weeks and hiring cars, staying in hotels etc. The cost of this has been massive, as anyone who is a regular commuter between the uk and ireland will know. Its cheap if you travel on a wednesday morning at 06:30 from stanstead but thats no use to me cos I work. I must travel on a friday afternoon and return on a sunday and thats always pricey. I need to travel from Gatwick where possible.
So I put my foot down this year and said my daughter must come to my home in the UK but it has yet to happen. The age limit for unacompanied minors has risen to 12 years so I'll have to wait another 7 years before she can travel on her own!! She lives in the south so flights have to be typically from cork and on most weekends, the flights to and from Cork are at least 1 1/2 times the price of dublin and sometime twice the price. Her mum wont travel from anywhere but cork and wants me to shoulder the cost of her flights and accomodation while my daughter is here which add's huge expense to the whole affair. I'm happy to continue to visit my daughter in ireland for the majority of the visits but for the holiday breaks I'd love to have her in my home in the UK.
This has my head wrecked trying to find a solution so I suppose my questions are...
Is there anyone else out there in a similar situation that has found a way of managing this, I'm open to all ideas no matter how far out there!
What responsibility does my ex have to share the burden of the travel still? Should she at least pay for her own flights?
Its heart breaking not seeing my little girl as often as I'd love to but I cant pull money out of my ass :-)
Come on Boards, hit me with some creative ideas!!

ash23 · 27-02-2013 10:04am

Would it not be better to go back to court and try to get longer periods (fitted around school holidays?).

She can't fly alone which is fair enough and to be honest, if you moved to the UK, I don't see why the mother should have to pay for her own flights if she is bringing the child over. (I also don't see why you had to be responsible for travel when she moved either - that was unfair)

I honestly think the only solution is to get a relative to bring your daughter over and stay with you for the week or for you to fly over and collect your daughter and bring her back to the UK. Would your parents do that if you paid for their travel?

The mother could drive to Dublin though where flights would be cheaper and more frequent but if she is refusing the only thing that will make it happen is to go back to court.

So for me, the logical solution seems to be, go to court and ask for longer periods of access at mid terms, christmas and summer. Ask that your ex travel to Dublin so that you can pick her up and take her to UK. It will involve longer absences from your child though. And you'll be paying for 4 flights for yourself and 2 for your child.

Another alternative is move back to Ireland or try to get work here.

lovelyjubbly · 27-02-2013 10:11am

I sympathise with your financial difficulties and congratulate you on continuing to see your daughter despite them. However you are asking an awful lot of a 5 year old to travel over to you every three weeks. Have you considered this aspect?

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 10:22am

Thanks Ash. I dont want to go back to court unless I absolutely have to. It was a horrible experience the first time and at the end of the day anyone who has been there will tell you that nobody wins and any judge worth his salt is always going to encourage you to sort it out yourselves first, which I suppose is what I'm doing.
To clarify the background on the situation, my ex abandoned all financial commitments and left them to me to sort out i.e. She pays nothing towards the 2.5k per month mortgage and all associated costs and countless debts she ran away from.. I pay for everything my little girl wants and needs. We were never married.
There is already a court order in place granting access and I believe with the right logistical solution my ex will play ball. A court order in Ireland is essentially a waste of time to be honest. My ex flouts it all the time. She's always late for pickups and drop off's and will leave me late returing to the airport for flights (Ryanair, need I say more!). I spent huge money coming home for xmas and she cancelled at the last minute.
My parents are retired and dont drive so they cant help. My siblings are not in Ireland so they cannot help either. Moving back to Ireland is not an option.
I've asked my ex to travel to dublin for some of the flights. I've even offered her and her fella my home in the UK so I can take my daughter on holidays but she just refuses to play ball.
In short what I need is some flexibility to make this work and a court order will not do that. Welcome to the land of my frustration lol

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 10:24am

oh god I dont want her to travel every three weeks! Sorry I should have said that! No I was thinking maybe 3 or 4 visits a year for holiday periods.

lovelyjubbly wrote: »

I sympathise with your financial difficulties and congratulate you on continuing to see your daughter despite them. However you are asking an awful lot of a 5 year old to travel over to you every three weeks. Have you considered this aspect?

ash23 · 27-02-2013 10:30am

I think then to be honest, you've no options really. If the ex won't travel and nobody else can and the child is too young to travel alone, then unless you go to court, and if your ex flouts the order, you go to the guards, then it's most likely just a case of carrying on as things are until your child is old enough to travel alone. And even then, you'll be relying on the ex to get her to the airport and onto the plane on time.

lovelyjubbly · 27-02-2013 10:32am

If your ex is continually breaching court ordered access the only remedy is to continually bring it to the courts attention. Take note of every time it happens.

My brother is in a similar situation (long distance from his children) although he hadn't being paying his maintenance all the time. The Judge told him if he didn't pay his maintenance he'd be jailed and the Judge told her if she didn't keep to access agreements she would be jailed. Although I don't think it's likely to happen the threat of it has been enough to keep the two of them playing nice with each other.

Can you organise to skype your daughter once a week before she goes to bed?

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 10:32am

Its looking like court so :-(

ash23 wrote: »

I think then to be honest, you've no options really. If the ex won't travel and nobody else can and the child is too young to travel alone, then unless you go to court, and if your ex flouts the order, you go to the guards, then it's most likely just a case of carrying on as things are until your child is old enough to travel alone. And even then, you'll be relying on the ex to get her to the airport and onto the plane on time.

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 10:36am

THats probably the only option. I ended up in a car crash just before the xmas trying to make it to the airport for a flight!
I call my daughter every day without fail. I've offer to buy her an ipad/tablet for skype but she refuses to get broadband unless I pay for it. I've sent her webcam and mike for her own laptop to use with O2 dongle but she refuses to set it up. As strange as it sounds, I think I could live with only seeing her every three weeks if I could have the skype chats on video!
Maybe a trip back in front of the judge is the only thing that will work.

lovelyjubbly wrote: »

If your ex is continually breaching court ordered access the only remedy is to continually bring it to the courts attention. Take note of every time it happens.

My brother is in a similar situation (long distance from his children) although he hadn't being paying his maintenance all the time. The Judge told him if he didn't pay his maintenance he'd be jailed and the Judge told her if she didn't keep to access agreements she would be jailed. Although I don't think it's likely to happen the threat of it has been enough to keep the two of them playing nice with each other.

Can you organise to skype your daughter once a week before she goes to bed?

lovelyjubbly · 27-02-2013 10:47am

It's not unreasonable to request skpe, if it's properly explained to a judge I'd imagine they would be for it (sadly some do not understand it). It's also not unreasonable to look for extended access during holiday periods (not sure if this will apply for Christmas though).

Although you are making substantial financial contributions I can't see a Judge ordering a mother to pay for her flights to facilitate access. I'd discuss this with your solicitor- he/she will know if such a request is likely to piss off a judge. Ask for what is reasonable. If a judge ruled she had to subsidise cost of access when she moved it's logical that the same ruling will apply to you.

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 10:58am

None of it seems unreasonable I suppose. The frustrating thing is this woman ran away and left me with massive debts for a house we built together (650K plus) for which I will be paying for the rest of my life and she ignores completely and yet I have to take her to court to skype my daughter. The structure of family law in ireland (and the uk in fairness) is stacked so heavily against the father its rediculous.

lovelyjubbly wrote: »

It's not unreasonable to request skpe, if it's properly explained to a judge I'd imagine they would be for it (sadly some do not understand it). It's also not unreasonable to look for extended access during holiday periods (not sure if this will apply for Christmas though).

Although you are making substantial financial contributions I can't see a Judge ordering a mother to pay for her flights to facilitate access. I'd discuss this with your solicitor- he/she will know if such a request is likely to piss off a judge. Ask for what is reasonable. If a judge ruled she had to subsidise cost of access when she moved it's logical that the same ruling will apply to you.

ash23 · 27-02-2013 11:10am

pablo21 wrote: »

None of it seems unreasonable I suppose. The frustrating thing is this woman ran away and left me with massive debts for a house we built together (650K plus) for which I will be paying for the rest of my life and she ignores completely and yet I have to take her to court to skype my daughter. The structure of family law in ireland (and the uk in fairness) is stacked so heavily against the father its rediculous.

Ah now, to be fair, you moved to the UK. That wasn't your exs fault. And if both names were on the mortgage and the deeds of the house, you could have pursued her or had the bank pursue her for her share.

You can't tie in what she did then to what is happening now. It's not tit for tat and it's all separate to what is going on with the child.

I agree that family law is not fair or balanced. When a father wants to walk the mother hasn't a leg to stand on really. When the mother obstructs the fathers access, the father hasn't a leg to stand on.

It's all there in black and white but very little enforcing going on. But you have to separate all the issues in a breakup into their individual strands to try and get anywhere in terms of making sense of it in your own head.

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 11:20am

Well that's a matter of opinion Ash. Your not familiar with all the details of the breakup so I dont expect you to understand the damage this woman did before she left. This left me with no option but to go to the uk.
I was merely pointing out the irony of the situation in relation to the use of skype.
My only need is to see my daughter and that's what brought me here..to seek some practical suggestions for getting around a logistical problem. getting child A from ireland to the UK in the most practical way possible as often as is reasonable :-)

ash23 wrote: »

Ah now, to be fair, you moved to the UK. That wasn't your exs fault. And if both names were on the mortgage and the deeds of the house, you could have pursued her or had the bank pursue her for her share.

You can't tie in what she did then to what is happening now. It's not tit for tat and it's all separate to what is going on with the child.

I agree that family law is not fair or balanced. When a father wants to walk the mother hasn't a leg to stand on really. When the mother obstructs the fathers access, the father hasn't a leg to stand on.

It's all there in black and white but very little enforcing going on. But you have to separate all the issues in a breakup into their individual strands to try and get anywhere in terms of making sense of it in your own head.

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 11:28am

One of the most shocking things I came across during the whole court process was to find out that my ex partners solicitor was the same solicitor in this article!
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/67195
I only found this out after I advised my solicitor of the pressure being placed on me to agree cash based maintenace payments!
This is why I'd rather sort it out between us than go back to court.

lovelyjubbly · 27-02-2013 11:34am

OP that's really irrelevant to the logistics of seeing your daughter. No one can be seen as culpable for the suicide of another. Why are you posting this?

Another poster advised you to separate the financial history from the current access one. It's good advise.

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 11:42am

Lovelyjubbly, I in no way endorse what this man did and it is of course relevant to not going back to court. I've experienced first hand what the legal system is like for father's and sympathise with the frustration this man felt. But I in no way endorse or cast any opinion on who was right or wrong or who's at fault. Its a very sad tale of what the reality of family law is like for some people. And I for one dont want to go back down that road.

My request for help here has nothing to do with past financial history, its to do with current financial position?

ash23 · 27-02-2013 12:18pm

pablo21 wrote: »

My request for help here has nothing to do with past financial history, its to do with current financial position?

But you blame your ex for your current financial position and expect her to go above and beyond what is necessary so that you can see your child because you moved away.

Unfortunately, while you are right to be annoyed about her leaving you in a financial mess, the two do not go hand in hand and are unrelated in terms of the access issue.

So you need to leave the mortgage thing out of it and focus solely on the access. And if you do that, you will see that no court will make her pay for her flights to the UK when you were the one who moved, whatever the reason behind the move.

The ins and outs of the breakup aren't relevant in terms of the access so me not knowing them makes no difference. A judge would be the same. They don't want to hear that stuff. Their concern is for the child.

If the mortgage thing is an issue I would advise that you contact the bank and state that she is not paying her share and you are unable to and let them chase her up. Or get your solicitor to follow her up for her share.

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 12:32pm

Ash whether I do blame her or not is irrelevant to be honest. The whole point is moot because she couldn't/wouldnt pay it even with a court order and as I said before I have no interest in going back to court anyway. What I came here for was some helpful advice and suggestions about how to facilitate visitation in the UK, not to discuss my mortgage. I really appreciate your thoughts on the matter but suggesting to take her to court to pay her mortgage is only equaled in pointlessness by actually taking her to court to pay her mortgage. In the real world it has absolutely no effect whatsoever.

I've just checked all the airline's and the minor travel is restricted to children over 12 on short hop and over 14 on longer if unaccompanied. It used to be the case that even very young children were facilitated by a paid for service with some of the larger carries but alas those days are gone :-(

ash23 wrote: »

But you blame your ex for your current financial position and expect her to go above and beyond what is necessary so that you can see your child because you moved away.

Unfortunately, while you are right to be annoyed about her leaving you in a financial mess, the two do not go hand in hand and are unrelated in terms of the access issue.

So you need to leave the mortgage thing out of it and focus solely on the access. And if you do that, you will see that no court will make her pay for her flights to the UK when you were the one who moved, whatever the reason behind the move.

The ins and outs of the breakup aren't relevant in terms of the access so me not knowing them makes no difference. A judge would be the same. They don't want to hear that stuff. Their concern is for the child.

If the mortgage thing is an issue I would advise that you contact the bank and state that she is not paying her share and you are unable to and let them chase her up. Or get your solicitor to follow her up for her share.

ash23 · 27-02-2013 12:38pm

If you sort out the mortgage, you will have more money. Either to pay for flights or to enable you to move back to Ireland.

There is some very good advice in AAM regarding joint ownership of a property and advice on what to do when one person won't cover their share

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/forumdisplay.php?f=122

You might be better off dealing with the root of the problem.

pablo21 · 27-02-2013 12:41pm

thanks Ash. I think paying for the flights seems to be the only option, unless I find someone responsible who commutes regularly from Cork to London! thanks for the link :-)

ash23 wrote: »

If you sort out the mortgage, you will have more money. Either to pay for flights or to enable you to move back to Ireland.

There is some very good advice in AAM regarding joint ownership of a property and advice on what to do when one person won't cover their share

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/forumdisplay.php?f=122

You might be better off dealing with the root of the problem.

Father in UK-Daughter in Ireland. Help me please!!

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